UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: Jack.G on November 23, 2012, 10:51:10 pm
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Suppose someone had to bring it up.
Doylo's recent blog entries have rattled my cage, wondering if it is just me.
I am keeping my immediate reactions to one side until some other opinons are put forward.
Disclaimer: Posting while pissed (first draft was a full on rant)
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I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees :P
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I wouldn't go out on a limb to do it though ;)
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I wouldn't go out on a limb to do it though ;)
I agree, no kneed for the this post
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I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees :P
The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.
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I wouldn't go out on a limb to do it though ;)
I agree, no kneed for the this post
Bar one valid point, we knee to cap this topic before it escalates as a lot hinges on it.
Seriously though, I would never dispute that barrows deserved the tick of the problem and fair dues for some very impressive technical skill, but personally I'd always have more respect for someone who powers through the moves knee barless. The upside down hands free rest doesn't really match up to the concept of maximum physical effort that I thought were central to bouldering. Well at least overhanging limestone powerfest style bouldering.
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I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees :P
Whenever I see threads like this I imagine the poster wandering their house in a stiff-legged rage; boiling over after their non-flexing knees have stopped them from, say, picking up a dropped Werther's Original....
That said, whilst there's obviously nought wrong with a knee bar, I have mixed feelings about knee-pads.... seems a little "aidy" - what's next taping sky-hooks to fingers? Still, you can't get toothpaste back in the tube.
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We're letting the word 'faggot' through though are we? I can't see that happening it it were a racist term. Is homophobia OK?
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Yes. Yes it is.
At least, faggot is the least offensive word in that title
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Shame you didn't leave the rant Jack. Suspect I might have agreed and it would have saved me some typing.
I'll have to have a rant instead.
Get a grip people. Using knees is as valid as using hands, feet, beards or bollocks, get over it. Anyone would think you were a bunch of mentally deficient gym monkey's in a sulk because you might have to think a bit harder from now on. So someone has taken the shine off some of your trophies. It's your own fault for missing a trick. Before anyone says "Ah but we never used to have 5.10 pads", it's no excuse I've used homemade pads for years which have been functionally just as good, just a bit less comfortable.
As for regrading stuff, no new principles apply. Grades are for the average of stature using the best of kit. If morphological outliers can get in extra kneebars it has no bearing on the grade for the average man, ergo the grade stays the same. It's no different from other forms of lank advantage. Life isn't fair, neither is climbing, there's no fixing it.
Seriously though, I would never dispute that barrows deserved the tick of the problem and fair dues for some very impressive technical skill, but personally I'd always have more respect for someone who powers through the moves knee barless.
I'm the other way. I have more respect for people with the skill to do things the easiest way possible. If you can climb an 8a a pointlessly nontechnical hard way you should be using some braincells and applying yourself on an 8a+.
I may be 'impressed' by sickening feats of power, but ultimately displaying a poor power to skill ratio is not something to be proud of.
The upside down hands free rest doesn't really match up to the concept of maximum physical effort that I thought were central to bouldering. Well at least overhanging limestone powerfest style bouldering.
:-\ That is one weird parallel version of the climbing game to the one I know. The concept as I understand it is to apply minimum physical effort and therefore get up the hardest possible lines.
Definately feel better for getting that off my chest. ;D
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We're letting the word 'faggot' through though are we?
I assumed the OP was talking about stuffing kneepads with faggots (like Brains) to make the knees bigger and allow wider kneebars to be used. Such behaviour often leaves greasy pork mince on holds, which is no good for anyone.
Edit: I agree with Bonjoy; I'd also like to see anyone who thinks it's 'easy' get into the upside down double knee position Barrows used and then 'rest' in it.
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We're letting the word 'faggot' through though are we? I can't see that happening it it were a racist term. Is homophobia OK?
I'm prepared to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume the thread title was somehow a reference to the blackcountry meatball delicacy.
Obviously it would be unnacceptabe to us it in a gayist sense.
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DOWNGRADE.
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I thought "faggotry" was being used in the sense of kindling / sticks; a metaphorical reference to kneepads fueling his fiery rage against all that's wrong in modern climbing.
This needs resolving. OP, would you like to burn or eat faggots?...... actually.... maybe not we're best off not knowing that .....
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What Bonjoy said.
Technology improves, sometimes in small increments (a slight tweak of the heel design here or there that allows your heel to stick on your project), sometimes in larger steps (sticky rubber, cams, kneepads). Actually pads are probably also the former since homemade ones have been around for decades (just ask Seb Grieve), the Americans have used ever improving rubber ones for years etc. etc.
It's not like I claimed Director's and Greenheart were the same grade after I found that rest. Maybe I should have, that would really have pissed a few people off.
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The kneepads certainly are a game changer on certain climbs and i can see why some people would say "whats next?". In my view a bit of rubber stuck to your knee is in the realm of acceptable. When i saw the footage of Barrows on Directors and the no hands rest i thought it was a shame but on the other hand it's pretty damn impressive. Give most people a kneepad and they wouldn't be able to do that. Pete Harrison was telling me about a similar thing in dry tooling when heel spurs came out and people started resting up the routes. Will Gadd wrote an article listing grades for ascents with heel spurs and ascents without and everyone stopped using them because they wanted the grade. I think in climbing as long as you're honest about the difficulty it's not an issue. You're still climbing the same line it's just easier so take a lower grade. 8a.nu 'personal' grades all the way baby!
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For some problems, the grade generally given can be using a specific technique... So if you do it with knee bars or even heels for some problems then your different way may require a different grade - or not.
After trying one problem at Carrock last week I'd like a stealth rubber calf pad ;)
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Apologies for the use of Faggorty in the title, it wan't related in any way homophobia, just tounge in cheek climbing related term for "trickery" that I generally was not happy with.
Sorry Bonjoy, would have made good counter rant, as I said may be its just me but thinking about it the main instigating factors were;
fashioning a hand-off rest on a boulder problem, I just cant agree with / see the point,
I totally agree that there is a place for a kneepad, as a "pad" for protection / comfort and not an aid, which these Five Ten pads are. Much like taping fingers to save skin getting slashed by a particulary sharp hold, but there is a vauge line where the tape could become aid.
Lastly, I was stomping round the house raging :whistle: over the comment (which I now hope was just in jest) that Kneepads are game-on for FAs.
It is all up to the individual at the end of the day, as long as they are comfortable with their ascent.
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The upside down hands free rest doesn't really match up to the concept of maximum physical effort that I thought were central to bouldering. Well at least overhanging limestone powerfest style bouldering.
:-\ That is one weird parallel version of the climbing game to the one I know. The concept as I understand it is to apply minimum physical effort and therefore get up the hardest possible lines.
You are absolutely correct, I expressed my point there arseways. What I meant to say was:
The thing which attracted me most to bouldering over other climbing disciplines is the concept of trying moves at your physical limit, pulling through a crux where your body is screaming and nothing but sheer determination holds you on. One of the best feelings I've ever experienced. Kneebaring the fuck out of a boulder problem at every opportunity makes it seem like you are trying to avoid that feeling completely. Of course this is purely my opinion and anyone feel free to disagree. Its a different style of ascent with and without kneepads but both are very impressive in different respects.
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I totally agree that there is a place for a kneepad, as a "pad" for protection / comfort and not an aid, which these Five Ten pads are. Much like taping fingers to save skin getting slashed by a particulary sharp hold, but there is a vauge line where the tape could become aid.
Lastly, I was stomping round the house raging :whistle: over the comment (which I now hope was just in jest) that Kneepads are game-on for FAs.
It was tongue in cheek- it's the same as using as them for any climb. At least on FAs though you're not changing a classic sequence and making it massively easier.
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The upside down hands free rest doesn't really match up to the concept of maximum physical effort that I thought were central to bouldering. Well at least overhanging limestone powerfest style bouldering.
:-\ That is one weird parallel version of the climbing game to the one I know. The concept as I understand it is to apply minimum physical effort and therefore get up the hardest possible lines.
You are absolutely correct, I expressed my point there arseways. What I meant to say was:
The thing which attracted me most to bouldering over other climbing disciplines is the concept of trying moves at your physical limit, pulling through a crux where your body is screaming and nothing but sheer determination holds you on. One of the best feelings I've ever experienced. Kneebaring the fuck out of a boulder problem at every opportunity makes it seem like you are trying to avoid that feeling completely. Of course this is purely my opinion and anyone feel free to disagree. Its a different style of ascent with and without kneepads but both are very impressive in different respects.
Kneepads just change the goalposts of the climbable and, possibly, make the game more interesting, just like chalk, sticky rubber, bouldering pads and the rest. Historically, there's always been some tumult when things like this come along, which always seems silly with a good bit of hindsight. Having said that, being able to climb up harder stuff with more ease isn't always regarded as progress, and this isn't always a bad thing with hindsight. See the Czech sandstone for evidence of that.
Whenever debate erupts over, for example, bolting on grit, rap bolting in the states, onsighting...what's common is the preservation of some form of "the game" that we're all involved in. It's all pretty artificial.
So, if it suddenly transpires that there's 50 amazing no hands rests all over a classic hard bouldering venue it's only natural that some people would want to embrace that fully, and that others would want to draw a different line in the sand. I think neither is any more or less valid.
I fucking love my kneepad, by the way. And, I wonder if this is doable sans pad?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5jYhw7RI3nE# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5jYhw7RI3nE#)!
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Shame on you Dave Macleod, tut tut...
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It occurred to me later, given the thread title, that you might be ranting for the other side on this Jack.
Seeing as you wrote the OP i'll see what holes I can pick in your argument.
fashioning a hand-off rest on a boulder problem, I just cant agree with / see the point,
Nobody 'fashions' a kneebar on a problem. The bar was there all along, other people just didn't see/use it for whatever reason.
You can't see the point? It's the same point as any other climbing (unless you subscribe to the idea that bouldering is just training for bigger things). I.e. finding the easiest way up a bit of rock and/or dragging your carcass up the most inhospitable collection of rock features you are able.
I totally agree that there is a place for a kneepad, as a "pad" for protection / comfort and not an aid, which these Five Ten pads are.
It is utterly arbitrary to hold this standard for a bit of rubber on your thigh when you hold another (intuitively sensible) standard for rubber on your feet. It just sounds like straw clutching to me. I can understand folk being peeved that the goal posts have moved, rendering old sequences (and their grades) historical eliminates, just admit it and be done. I'd be peeved if any type of new beta was found on a route/prob of mine, which dropped the grade. It's happen plenty of times. I'm never pissed off with the person who climbed it better than me, I'm just pissed off with myself for missing a trick.
I mean really, who and how the fuck could/would you arbitrate the line between comfort padding and padding to assist climbing? They totally blend into one another.
There is no practical middle ground, either you try (and fail miserably) to prevent people using pads on boulder probs at all, or you accept their use totally, even if this changes some grades. It's like saying you accept chalk use to dry up sweat but not to improve friction, the two aspects are indivisible.
Much like taping fingers to save skin getting slashed by a particularly sharp hold, but there is a vague line where the tape could become aid.
I can only think you mean tape gloves. Again I can't see a problem. So long as you don't tape an ice axe onto your hand.
Lastly, I was stomping round the house raging :whistle: over the comment (which I now hope was just in jest) that Kneepads are game-on for FAs.
Not using a kneepad on an FA, if you spot kneebar potential, is ridiculous and asking for later disappointment. Unless you happen to like putting up (needless) eliminates and having your stuff downgraded that is.
It is all up to the individual at the end of the day, as long as they are comfortable with their ascent.
This seems to contradict your notion implied above that FAs using kneepads are somehow of lesser validity. And whilst what you say of individual comfort is true, it doesn't change the fact that if the use of a kneebar (and whatever form of pad you prefer) is clearly the easiest way to climb something, then this is what it should be graded for and the non-kneebar way is an eliminate. :tease:
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Kneebaring the fuck out of a boulder problem at every opportunity makes it seem like you are trying to avoid that feeling completely. Of course this is purely my opinion and anyone feel free to disagree.
I think where they are used, the problems are probably still as difficult as you describe, and the difference is that without a kneepad they might not be possible at all (for the person trying).
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Saved me some effort Bonjoy.
Tape = aid? Guess Salathe must still be waiting for a free ascent. :lol:
Personally I can't see the point in NOT using knees. If I'm bouldering outside I'm doing it 1. for fun, 2. to train for sport routes.
1: Knees are fun, I fucking love spinny-kneebar-toehook-invert stuff, it's rad.
2: Training includes getting better at climbing, not just getting stronger. If you want something which is purely a physical challenge then go to the gym :P
pulling through a crux where your body is screaming and nothing but sheer determination holds you on. One of the best feelings I've ever experienced. Kneebaring the fuck out of a boulder problem at every opportunity makes it seem like you are trying to avoid that feeling completely
You should try sport climbing on enduro routes, you'll get that feeling a lot more than you will bouldering. In fact, if you really want that feeling you should try climbing routes with upside-down kneebar rests, so that your legs/abbs/head get pumped too - it's awesome. Your point applies equally to slabs, tenuous heels and anything else with an aspect of technical skill too by the way.
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There's nothing more hilarious than the transparently desperate revisionist-rule axegrinding of someone scarcely able to come to terms with the fact that someone else has found a better sequence on a problem than you have.
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^ This is all that needs to be said on this topic. Get a grip people, or climb barefoot and without chalk and tape.
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Aren't you all forgetting the traditional saying "the best climber is the one who's having the most fun with no knees or heels ".
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Thanks to all of the responses for lots of work distracting thought. All mention of "pad" below is in reference to the 5:10 Stealth Pad.
Maintaining the trad ethic of repeating a problem in the same or better style than the FA, the use of a Pad is a lesser style.
It is acceptable for pads to be used for pushing the limit, but with the intention of progression and the goal of bettering the original effort.
Natural Method in this style is "only" 8b+ and not cutting edge, after seeing the vid, it totally could be done sans pad, just not by Dave at the moment and the use of the pad has taken it down to his level. It's a very cool problem none the less.
Hands-off rests have no place in Bouldering
I you want to fanny around upside down in a cave with two knees pads on as a training for sport, go for gold, what ever gets you off and your having fun. Dont spray about it as it does de-value the original efforts and future inspirations.
All that said, I now have a pad in the post and will put it to some use to get a better feel for the potential overall impact. I am sure everyone that has posted has had experience with one ?
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You are such a douche I don't even know where to start.
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You're crazy pal!!!
First troll for a while...
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Thanks guys, really constructive :shrug:
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Thanks guys, really constructive :shrug:
Sorry - hard to be constructive about your (self confessed) mini rant..
Maybe have a cup of tea and listen to some relaxing music?
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And offer us more insight on how we can preserve the trad ethic in bouldering..
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I think the issue is that you have decided that using a pad is a lesser style and no one agrees with you.
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Is it better to work a problem sans-kneepad, or flash it with a kneepad?? :worms: :o :rtfm:
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I'm only a part-time boulderer unlike you die-hards. Be gentle on me. This knee-pad debate is almost a carbon-copy of the debate that went on during the early noughties around Canada, the US and Swiss/Austria about the use of heel-spurs in mixed climbing. Anybody wanting to get a better insight on whether or not knee-pads should be considered fair game in bouldering really should read Will Gadd's two articles for a broader and very relevant context.
Basically substitute the word 'heel-spur' for 'knee-pad' and you have the debate:
Spurs are for Horses
http://www.gravsports.com/Gadfly%20Pages/spurs_are_for_horses.htm (http://www.gravsports.com/Gadfly%20Pages/spurs_are_for_horses.htm)
and
Gadd's excellent blog page on spurless/spurs grade comparisons for the cutting-edge routes of the time, with links to more info:
http://gravsports.com/Gadfly%20Pages/gadfly20058.htm (http://gravsports.com/Gadfly%20Pages/gadfly20058.htm) - That graded list is very relevant - you could knock something up for Parisella's quite easily.
finally, a good overview of legitimacy in mixed climbing, which could be applied to any form of climbing really:
http://www.rockandice.com/articles/how-to-climb/article/907-rip-mixed (http://www.rockandice.com/articles/how-to-climb/article/907-rip-mixed)
I think this comment sums up how I personally feel about how I want to set the arbitrary style goalposts for climbing's different games:
Alpinsim (from Gadd): 'Last year two of my friends, Ueli Steck and Conrad Anker, both climbed Everest without oxygen. That’s where the bar is now (and realistically has been for 30 years), buck up.'
Sport climbing, for me, would be something like - try to avoid pre-clipping too high (sometimes I fail), don't extend the lower-off down to the last good hold, don't grab the lower-off (with rare exceptions). Kneepads may reduce the grade and are a step backwards in style from previous ascents - actually on reflection not sure if I care as much about pads on sport routes as on bouldering, don't know why.
Trad - don't pre-place gear for headpoints unless it's just about impossible to place on the lead, don't place any more pegs (relics of the past and a step backwards in style).
Bouldering - kneepads are like heel spurs, they reduce the difficulty of the problem beyond the previous style of just using chalk and shoe rubber. I wouldn't want to climb a classic problem with knee-pads any more than I'd want to climb a hard mixed route with heel-spurs: because it's a step backwards in style. Buck up, when men were men etc :P
Some other views explaining why heel spurs died a death around 2005:
http://sportandmixedclimbing.com/mixed_issues/NEW_LeBlanc_spurs_NEW.htm (http://sportandmixedclimbing.com/mixed_issues/NEW_LeBlanc_spurs_NEW.htm)
http://www.climbing.com/news/m13-repeated-twice-2/ (http://www.climbing.com/news/m13-repeated-twice-2/)
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Kneepads may reduce the grade
But what's the problem?
Will Gadd wrote an article listing grades for ascents with heel spurs and ascents without and everyone stopped using them because they wanted the grade...<snip>....You're still climbing the same line it's just easier so take a lower grade.
It's about climbing the line in the most efficient style using the most suitable equipment (whether that's chalk or sticky rubber or RPs or cams or mats or...etc). More efficient = easier climbing ( = easier grade) which is a good thing.
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If you're going to quote please don't take it out of context - 'Kneepads may reduce the grade' - I then went on to say I don't feel the same way about kneepads on routes as on boulder probs.
It says a lot about the style of climbing in the cave that kneepads are so useful there - i.e. they're basically power-endurance problems, a route grade would be appropriate for the longer links.
The 'most efficient style' argument is a red-herring. The whole of climbing could be reduced to finding the best equipment to most efficiently cover the terrain if we truly believed that was the ultimate aim. Those aren't the rules we want to play by though are they. Or I could cover director's cut far more efficiently then Alex Barrows ever could by using axes and wearing fruit boots on my feet (please nobody do this). One move for every four of his.
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Having read the thread I am not sure I see the issue to be honest. As others have said knee-pads seem no different to me than other technology such as chalk, bouldering pads etc... Personally it would seem strange to ban or frown upon using a particular part of your body whilst climbing.
The only thing that upsets me is that I have completely missed out on using what is in hindsight a completely obvious technique in somewhere like the Cave. Yep, the grades will be different but again I don't see an issue, if the first ascentionist uses a method that is later found to be not the most efficient then the grade is normally adjusted accordingly. I think Trigger Cut is a fair point as the original method by Chris Davies is not the one used by most people. Using pads on that problem seems no different. Obviously if anyone wishes to spurn the pads then that is up to them and they can have whatever grade they want for it.
Also knee-pads won't transform every problem just ones where knee-bars are available. There are plenty of problems or routes out there where there are no knee-bars and p[ads will not affect them. It just means that from now on I personally will be aware of the benefits of another climbing technique that may enable me to get to the top of a problem or route. To say knee-pads are cheating you may as well say that heel-hooks are cheating or that putting more rubber on the upper part of a shoe to help with toe-hooks is cheating.
I can see some linkage with the heel spurs thing in mixed climbing but am not really certain it is the same. Although I have very little ice climbing experience so it is difficult to be certain. Also knee-pads as I have said before won't work in all situations and will only affect certain types of climbing e.g. the cave where it is very 3D.
I personally have a knee-pad and have used it (specifically in my failed attempts On Mecca). Yep it does make the route easier (for me) but it would seem bizarre to spurn the knee-bars as they are usable with or without a pad and the pad simply makes them very secure. I have previously (like most perople!) used knee-bars on all kinds of routes and many times got hands off rests - I just didn't have any rubber on my knee! So I don't really see an issue.
To be fair aeshetically I would prefer not to use them as i would feel like a beast and could ride around on my high horse and generally look with down with disdain upon the weak who feel the need to take weight off thier fingers!
Cheers Dave
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Thanks to all of the responses for lots of work distracting thought. All mention of "sticky rubber" below is in reference to the 5:10 Stealth rubber.
Maintaining the trad ethic of repeating a problem in the same or better style than the FA, the use of sticky rubber is a lesser style.
It is acceptable for sticky rubber to be used for pushing the limit, but with the intention of progression and the goal of bettering the original effort.
Natural Method in this style is "only" 8b+ and not cutting edge, after seeing the vid, it totally could be done sans sticky rubber, just not by Dave at the moment and the use of sticky rubber has taken it down to his level. It's a very cool problem none the less.
Sticky rubber has no place in Bouldering.
If you want to fanny around upside down in a cave with sticky rubber on as a training for sport, go for gold, what ever gets you off and your having fun. Dont spray about it as it does de-value the original efforts and future inspirations.
All that said, I now have sticky rubber shoes in the post and will put it to some use to get a better feel for the potential overall impact. I am sure everyone that has posted has had experience with one ?
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Just to be clear, I don't see kneebars as the same argument as heel-spurs, of course kneebars are legit. It's the new knee-pads which have recently become popular and which Doylo rightly points out are 'game-changers' which are a very similar argument to heel-spurs in mixed climbing.
Alex - would you be able to kneebar the problems in the cave without using big rubber mats strapped to your legs?
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It's not a red herring, it should be obvious I meant in the context of normal rock climbing, not mixed or aiding or whatever. Yes "bits of rubber on knees" is a fairly arbitrary line in the sand but it's obviously a lot bloody closer to sticky rubber shoes than it is to ice axes.
Edit: Re kneebars vs kneepads, where do you draw the line with homemade kneepads?
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Surely we're past all this? Would Ondra use kneebar/pads? Yes of course, ergo they are fine because he is God. The whole reduction in difficulty thing seems a similar thing to the whole gritstone "death E grades" vs "highballs with ten pads" that gets people worked up about "not accepting the challange". Its nonsense - if you want to feel like you're going to die then climb on North Stack not Burbage. Same thing with bouldering; if you want to do a fucking hard move then go and do one, there's plenty about, and stop whinging if the odd move gets bypassed with a kneebar because fact is its an obvious technique for climbing roofs. I.e. man up and get on Johnny G's Pill Box problem or something.
RE the cave in particular, a lot of those kneebars are only available to the tall. But like Bonjoy says life ain't fair. Don't we just call people lanky pricks and move on?
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In which case Lou Ferrino can not be 7C+. it's blatantly now a 7B+ boulder problem with a full hands-off rest and cup of tea in the middle. I'm sure we're all happy about that? :devangel:
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Why would anyone not be happy?? :???:
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Rhetorical question. I'll let someone else answer it.
...Same thing with bouldering; if you want to do a fucking hard move then go and do one, there's plenty about, and stop whinging if the odd move gets bypassed with a kneebar because fact is its an obvious technique for climbing roofs. I.e. man up and get on Johnny G's Pill Box problem or something.
RE the cave in particular, a lot of those kneebars are only available to the tall. But like Bonjoy says life ain't fair. Don't we just call people lanky pricks and move on?
No, 'somebody' re-grades the cave for the easiest method and we move on - if the consensus decides that the easiest method includes strapping rubber pads to your legs, then them's the new 'rules' from now on. Likewise for other cave bouldering - could the stuff in the cave at The Tor be tamed in the same manner?
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In which case Lou Ferrino can not be 7C+. it's blatantly now a 7B+ boulder problem with a full hands-off rest and cup of tea in the middle. I'm sure we're all happy about that? :devangel:
I don't personally have a problem with that. I did it the old way but am okay with the fact that there is a new sequence. I shall still keep my own personal grade, makes no difference to me. Am keen to check out the new sequences. Might mean that I stand a chance on some of the other link ups.
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Surely we're past all this? Would Ondra use kneebar/pads? Yes of course, ergo they are fine because he is God. The whole reduction in difficulty thing seems a similar thing to the whole gritstone "death E grades" vs "highballs with ten pads" that gets people worked up about "not accepting the challange". Its nonsense - if you want to feel like you're going to die then climb on North Stack not Burbage. Same thing with bouldering; if you want to do a fucking hard move then go and do one, there's plenty about, and stop whinging if the odd move gets bypassed with a kneebar because fact is its an obvious technique for climbing roofs. I.e. man up and get on Johnny G's Pill Box problem or something.
RE the cave in particular, a lot of those kneebars are only available to the tall. But like Bonjoy says life ain't fair. Don't we just call people lanky pricks and move on?
+KRS1
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The whole reduction in difficulty thing seems a similar thing to the whole gritstone "death E grades" vs "highballs with ten pads" that gets people worked up about "not accepting the challange". Its nonsense - if you want to feel like you're going to die then climb on North Stack not Burbage.
One of the weirder things about that era was not people not accepting pads, but people not accepting how the change of style made such a difference to the grades and being so desperate to cling on to their numbers, a concept that seems even more risibly antiquated and outdated now - I mean can you imagine people trying to cling on to (as per pete's example) Lou Ferrino being 7c+ for their heavily kneepadded restathon cup-of-tea ascent :???:
Then again as per pads one can readily choose to do it in the old style for one's personal challenge and pleasure (like Keenus) :)
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7C+. Even though with hands-off rest it might now take as long to climb as some 7c+'s :P
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Instead of lanky could we use the term 'non hobbit' instead? ;)
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Is this really happening? Are people in Wales really so rain sodden and befuddled they think using bits of rubber on your knees is an issue?
So, trigger cut is easy now. Deal with it and move on. Or, up your aspirations and start thinking of the link-ups.
For what it's worth the comparison to heel spurs is over-wrought. The point about heel spurs is that you could rest almost anywhere with them. kneebars are not in the same league.
Also, kneebars are cool - so the great thing is that all the problems in the cave just got *better* (as long as you're tall enough). Shouldn't you all be celebrating?
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Rubber kneepads are not a new thing but now they're being manufactured so are more widespread. For some people they make some climbs easier. Kneebars are really cool. That's it really. Most stupid debate for a while...
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In which case Lou Ferrino can not be 7C+. it's blatantly now a 7B+ boulder problem with a full hands-off rest and cup of tea in the middle.
Have you watched the vid? Do you think you will find the problem easier having to invert like that? I know I wouldn't!
As Stu said the heel spur comparison is inaccurate; kneepads don't allow you to get a hand off rest whenever you want. Mixed climbing has other problems, like having to regulate axe lengths, etc.
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There is nothing wrong wrong with knee pads.
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I object to Stu saying something is cool.....WTF does he know about cool :whistle:
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Is this really happening? Are people in Wales really so rain sodden and befuddled they think using bits of rubber on your knees is an issue?
So, trigger cut is easy now. Deal with it and move on. Or, up your aspirations and start thinking of the link-ups.
For what it's worth the comparison to heel spurs is over-wrought. The point about heel spurs is that you could rest almost anywhere with them. kneebars are not in the same league.
Also, kneebars are cool - so the great thing is that all the problems in the cave just got *better* (as long as you're tall enough). Shouldn't you all be celebrating?
The idea is almost exactly the same as the heel-spur, only the situations where you can use them are different. In each case you're attaching something extraneous to your body over-and-above what people have climbed the route/problem with previously. Not just a shoe improvement or liquid chalk to think of two obvious examples - it's a whole new piece of equipment.
And I don't think I'm saying it's really 'an issue' in the negative sense of the word - I'm pissing myself at people getting all defensive of the knee-padage. I'm just pointing out the obvious that at the moment expensive knee-paddage is something extra to what a lot of people would consider their normal bouldering gear, and that they make some 3D cave problems easier than they used to be - I don't think that's controversial is it? It goes without saying (so I'll say it) - climb however you want as long as it doesn't damage anyone else's experience. Personally I think anyone who thinks that this:
Some attempts on Director's Cut (8a+?) in Parisella's, also footage of Broken Heart (7c+) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/53279856)
is a better style of bouldering to aspire to than this:
Lou Ferrino 7C+, Parisella's Cave on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/8399819)
needs their style-radar examined for faulty wiring.
One is an inspiring, fluid, power endurance font 7C+ boulder problem with no respite until the finishing hold , the other is rubber-clad slothing around nonsense which I honestly think just looks a little bit shit, especially on such a cool pure line as LF. But if that's the way these sorts of problems are going then I'll be buying two Stealth knee-pads like everyone else just so I can do it the easiest way - I don't care that much I'll just follow the rubber-sheep.
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I think you may have lost some credibility by describing a problem in a quarried limestone cave with at least two manufactured holds as 'pure' ;)
I look forward to hearing back from you after you've tried this new beta as to whether you found it easier...
I see two videos of people playing to their strengths to get up a problem, which I think is to be applauded.
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It seems that pad-o-philia is rife amongst many climbers I once respected. Let's out them now and strike their ascents from the record books.
Filthy Heel-hookers are no better either.
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Say in the future a material is invented that is flexible/durable enough to be used to manufacture gloves of use for climbing, what would people's reactions be?
As for the 'minimum effort' argument; isn't there an alternative that says bouldering is climbing as hard as possible with the minimum aid required? Realistically speaking, that means shoes, perhaps some chalk, and a thick-ish teatowel. Who's to say that's not an equally valid aesthetic?
/drivel's advocaat
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Why the shoes and chalk?
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As for the 'minimum effort' argument; isn't there an alternative that says bouldering is climbing as hard as possible with the minimum aid required? Realistically speaking, that means shoes, perhaps some chalk, and a thick-ish teatowel.
Pads, starting pad, doormat/carpet square, toothbrush, yard brush, brush on a stick, stepladder, chalk bucket, chalk bag, liquid chalk, anti-hydral, sandpaper, fingertape, edging shoes, smearing shoes, heel-hooking shoes, toe-hooking shoes....beanie...
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But if that's the way these sorts of problems are going then I'll be buying two Stealth knee-pads like everyone else just so I can do it the easiest way - I don't care that much I'll just follow the rubber-sheep.
So a problem gets scores of ascents from people copying each other's beta. Then one guy breaks ranks and works out a different way that is better for him and all of a sudden he and anyone one who capitalizes on his effort is a sheep? :-\ Seems to me more sheep-like to carry on doing it 'the old way', just because that's how it's always been done, that's what the book grade is for and a bunch of grumpy locals don't think you look as cool.
The fact is naysayers will just have to learn to suck it up because kneepads are only going to get better, cheaper and more ubiquitous. Just like sticky rubber and pads and chalk did. In five/ten years time boulders will routinely think with their knees, just like we do now with our heels (also considered an unsporting deviant contrivance back in the day). You can go with it, or try to hold out like some kind of modern day clean-hand gang.
To illustrate the arbitrary nature of the objections to decent kneepads consider this. Bare (shaved?) legs have very good friction and don't slide like trouser clad legs. Kneebarring onto bare legs is very effective for the few goes it takes you to get massive bruises. In your utopian future where climbers all eschew the kneepad in favour of the firm clean thigh, what will you make of someone doing a bareleg version of Barrows' sequence? I suppose it will be ok because he's taking the pain?
WARNING EXTREME TANGENT AHEAD: Come to think of it the symmetry of sticky rubber shoes and kneepads is very strong. Bare feet versus shoes is much like bare leg versus pad and sock clad foot versus boot is much like trouser clad knee versus pad. So thinking it through, the advantage conferred to a knee by using a pad is nigh on exactly the same as the advantage conferred to a foot by using a boot. It's just less obvious because people usually climb in trousers but rarely climb only wearing socks on their feet.
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I think bouldering with your eyes open is plain cheating
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Surely it is the thin end of the wedge though.... :o
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As for the 'minimum effort' argument; isn't there an alternative that says bouldering is climbing as hard as possible with the minimum aid required? Realistically speaking, that means shoes, perhaps some chalk, and a thick-ish teatowel.
Pads, starting pad, doormat/carpet square, toothbrush, yard brush, brush on a stick, stepladder, chalk bucket, chalk bag, liquid chalk, anti-hydral, sandpaper, fingertape, edging shoes, smearing shoes, heel-hooking shoes, toe-hooking shoes....beanie...
Yes, yes, I know there's a ton of other paraphernalia involved, some if it more useful than others. But surely it's not unreasonable for people to suggest an arbitrary limit to the amount or quality of said paraphernalia, similar to those limits that exist in every other sport I can think of. After all, it's a sport, and a sport is basically just a set of rather bizarre rules delineating a particular form of physical exertion. Or something.
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Re comment about gloves for climbing, i thought maybe a stealth rubber glove would work, especially on slopers but it would be difficult to put on securely without gluing it onto your hands and unless the rubber was extremely thin, u wouldn't be able to crimp small holds with rubber on your fingertips as you probably couldn't feel the holds. For jams, I think a rubber glove has already been tried with some success and already perhaps sold commercially i believe
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madrock used to make some finger jimmyhats - never saw anyone using them though.
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Check these out:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/rubber-crack-gloves/107750560 (http://www.mountainproject.com/v/rubber-crack-gloves/107750560)
Looks a bit rum to me! ::)
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You can pick holes in my argument all night long because it's as full of them as a padless trouser leg. But so is everybody else's. The most important bits of this debate are:
the starting point of every type of climbing (and every sport, blah blah blah) is arbitrary, therefore we get to decide where that arbitrary point begins.
and
style matters (to me, and I bet lots of others too).
I reckon Edlinger would have pissed himself laughing at people hanging upside down in caves like modern-day rubber vampire bats, trying to find stasis on power endurance boulder problems instead of just making moves and, you know, climbing. ;D
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Alex - would you be able to kneebar the problems in the cave without using big rubber mats strapped to your legs?
I don't know, I've not tried. I would certainly still do trigger cut with the kneebar if I wasn't using a pad, same for the knee I use on the move on LF near the start. As bonjoy said, if I were doing that I'd probably use shorts and chalk a thigh. The rest would still be available without pads, maybe not no hands, I'd have to try to know - if it's not no hands it would be more hassle than it's worth given the time spent climbing into and out of it.
The rest almost certainly wouldn't be worth it on Ferrino by the way - if you can get to that point with enough beans to comfortably climb into the rest you shouldn't have an issue finishing the problem, it takes 3 moves to climb into it from a point 4 moves from the end of the problem. I did the LF sans RH pocket eliminate after finding the rest but didn't bother with it as I didn't think it was worth the hassle. It's only worth it on the links out of LF - director's, dorsal fin, incredible bulk etc. Fortuantely the pilgrimage sequence leads you away from it too, so although you could get into it I don't think it would be worth the effort.
Also, kneebars are cool - so the great thing is that all the problems in the cave just got *better* (as long as you're not a dwarf)
Too right. Knees are the new 1-5-9.
Personally I think anyone who thinks that this:
[Fatty on DC]
is a better style of bouldering to aspire to than this:
[LF vidl]
needs their style-radar examined for faulty wiring.
One is an inspiring, fluid, power endurance font 7C+ boulder problem with no respite until the finishing hold , the other is rubber-clad slothing around nonsense which I honestly think just looks a little bit shit, especially on such a cool pure line as LF.
If you want PE problems then don't try problems with no hands rest on them :tease: . I'm a route climber - I like rests, I'm not going to avoid them because you think shaking out is shit to watch. (p.s. just for fun I should point out that since fluid and power endurance are the same in this climbing context your statement is basically just "I like power endurance problems not endurance problems, and I find this more inspiring. Plus Alex climbs like a slow fat c*nt which looks shit." Whilst the latter part is true, your point is basically pointless).
A crack climber told me 'jammies' are nice to train in but poor for actually doing hard stuff.
P.S. Yeah, those people hanging upside down trying to rest, I hate them. I went to Malham and there was Steve hanging upside down on Overshadow and Stu hanging by his knees on Bat Route. What idiots they looked like. Next they'll be using a knee on Revelations, Jerry would never have done that.
P.P.S. I'm bored now and I just spent 20 minutes writing that when I should have been doing eccentrics and plugged into and EMS. You fuckers ruined my training.
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Routes aren't bouldering and aren't relevant to the point I'm making. Pointless points.
I don't think you're fat, or a cunt.
Do routes then... I don't get it?
Similarly bored, thanks for sharing.
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Routes aren't bouldering and aren't relevant to the point I'm making. Pointless points.
So different 'rules' for how you can climb on routes than for boulders? That sounds wacker than wack; wacker than you ever can imagine wack...
Do routes then... I don't get it?
I can't, it's too cold and all the routes are wet. Plus we don't have many routes in that steep, 3D style that I love.
That wasn't me being stroppy and insinuating I thought you thought I was a fat cunt - though I did just eat a \pretty big pizza.
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Ok, Alex - you're a really good climber and you know how to train, as do I but at a much lower level. Looking at it from a pragmatic viewpoint - why don't you work your weaknesses in the cave instead of reinforcing your 'resting' strengths just to take a 'soft' tick? Your weakness obviously being strength and not endurance.
From a style point of view - don't you think the obvious challenge inherent in those boulder problems is the continual effort from start to finish hold?
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I feel I ought to remind you that this is the guy that used a knee-bar on a pinches wall eliminate, unashamedly. :sick:
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I feel I ought to remind you that this is the guy that used a knee-bar on a pinches wall eliminate, unashamedly. :sick:
Even i don't agree with that :ras:
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I feel I ought to remind you that this is the guy that used a knee-bar on a pinches wall eliminate, unashamedly. :sick:
HOLD THE FUCK ON - why did nobody think to mention this earlier?
(http://www.foothealthcare.com/shop/images/articles/editor/woman-holding-lower-back.jpg)
(http://wanderingjustin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Round_of_Beers-400x265.jpg)
(http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/nadine123/nadine1231209/nadine123120900032/15308719-four-colorful-wheelbarrows-lined-up-against-a-metal-wall.jpg)
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From a style point of view - don't you think the obvious challenge inherent in those boulder problems is the continual effort from start to finish hold?
I've always thought that one of the caves biggest selling points is that, unlike a lot of hard lime venues, the classic problems are not eliminates. Let's keep it that way. Drawing up new rules to 'preserve' old beta would ruin the place.
This all reminds me of Sissy Crag in Sydney. I saw it in OTE as a youth and thought it looked amazing. Then when I turned up at the crag and the locals told me of the 'no heels rule', my estimation of the place tumbled. The rock was still cool, but the locals had managed to spoil the place nonetheless with their idiotic diktats.
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Looking at it from a pragmatic viewpoint - why don't you work your weaknesses in the cave instead of reinforcing your 'resting' strengths just to take a 'soft' tick? Your weakness obviously being strength and not endurance.
If I wanted to work my weaknesses I wouldn't go to the cave. I've been going to the cave for fun and to train for trying abyss next year, which includes getting good at using knees. Would you b happy if I downgraded DC to 8a and Greenheart to 7c+. No soft ticks then.
From a style point of view - don't you think the obvious challenge inherent in those boulder problems is the continual effort from start to finish hold?
Yes. That's why I downgraded them to reflect the new level of challenge.
Pinches wall is the best place for knees. My plan worked too - the tor gods have been angered and soaked the crag before Stu could do Evo and Bob had a chance to come back and do Devo, thus making me happy :)
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p.s. I'm really bad with those picture words - that took me a full minute to work out. I'll find the tipex.
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Looking at it from a pragmatic viewpoint - why don't you work your weaknesses in the cave instead of reinforcing your 'resting' strengths just to take a 'soft' tick? Your weakness obviously being strength and not endurance.
If I wanted to work my weaknesses I wouldn't go to the cave. I've been going to the cave for fun and to train for trying abyss next year, which includes getting good at using knees.
Would you b happy if I downgraded DC to 8a and Greenheart to 7c+. No soft ticks then.
Good at bouldering strength too then, wow.
I'm honestly not interested in whatever grade you've given whatever it was that you've climbed - I have no idea what you've done in there other than Lou Ferrino? Has there been some kind of rubber knee'd rampage going on? I don't do facecrook etc etc. And I find it funny that I've picked up the tab from some on here of 'grumpy local' as if I'm some advocate of cave bouldering which as anyone who knows me would find pretty funny as, despite living 5 minutes away, I have close to zero emotional attachment to the cave having been about 6 times in the last 18 months. This time of year I start training for mixed climbing and might have a dabble in the cave if I get inspired for something - want to do LF, maybe I can borrow a couple of knee pads. I just genuinely find it odd that anyone would actively choose to climb in a sloth style for fun.
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After watching Alex's video, I needed to purify my dirty soul, and went in my board room to worship the sacred image of Malc's One Armer hold.
Despite this, I think that knees and knee pads are just another personal choice of climbing style, personal, not worse or better. Personally I don't like them and I wouldn't use them, but that's me, and sometimes I feel I'd be happier to rip the holds from a problem than to climb it. :shrug:
The way a problem was firstly climbed has a lot of importance to me, and I tend to distinguish, more and more often, between climbing and testing myself. The two things not always coincide, and I choose my climbing approach accordingly.
So, again, just a personal choice.
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You're being a dumbass for the sake of it now, it's all gone a bit ukc :wall:
Good at bouldering strength too then, wow.
My point was that the cave is basically a long problem venue on steep ground - it suits my strengths. There are only about 3 hard short problems I can think of (crucial, louie armstrong, that new cjd one) so if I wanted to work my weaknesses I'd go bouldering at the tor. Or I'd work them when I train and just climb for fun outside. (Or, if you're thinkinf of my comment about training for abyss - if I were training for a route that suits me my training would involve doing things that were in that style. Perhaps not the best idea for long term improvement but I'm not so bothered if it gives me a decent shot at climbing that route next year.)
I'm honestly not interested in whatever grade you've given whatever it was that you've climbed
Then why the comment about "doing it for a soft grade"? Presumably just to piss me off. I'm not really pissed off - I'm psyched with doing those links and if anyone wants to repeat and downgrade from my guess that's cool.
want to do LF, maybe I can borrow a couple of knee pads.
Like I said, I doubt the rest is worth it on LF
it's blatantly now a 7B+ boulder problem with a full hands-off rest and cup of tea in the middle.
I presume that was a throw away comment, but that rest is pretty 'active' - I certainly can't be chilling for a cup of tea and it makes my head hurt.
I just genuinely find it odd that anyone would actively choose to climb in a sloth style for fun.
My style is slow irrespective of knees or not, which probably accentuates how it looks. I just climb in whatever way I think it's easiest to get up the route/problem/traverse I'm trying. Maybe I shouldn't shake out on staminaband because climbing slow is crap? :shrug: Presonally I fucking love rests, love shaking out, love upsidedown knee bars, love doing moves off knees etc. Moves off knees are well interesting, a whole new set of body positions and moves to play with.
P.s. I'll leave it to you to email Graham and Pringle to tell them they should go back to wheel of life without pads, not to mention Derailed and the groove DG does in Swiz on Dosage
The way a problem was firstly climbed has a lot of importance to me, .......
So, again, just a personal choice.
Indeed. For me I don't care how those cave links were first climbed - I just want to climb them.
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XNhiTEWllk8/UF-K6sIBSyI/AAAAAAAAEXc/XjUCWBdzF1s/s1600/storm-in-a-teacup.jpeg)
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XNhiTEWllk8/UF-K6sIBSyI/AAAAAAAAEXc/XjUCWBdzF1s/s1600/storm-in-a-teacup.jpeg)
Surely this could be applied to 95% of threads?
Why not give two grades for the problems in the cave as knees do appear to significantly alter the difficulty and character (and quality?) of the problems
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I missed all this over the weekend, but there are some strong feelings of deja vu reading this. Surely we could just cut and past all the comments made in the thread shark started a few month ago and save a lot of time. Not much new ground covered.
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P.P.S. I'm bored now and I just spent 20 minutes writing that when I should have been doing eccentrics and plugged into and EMS. You fuckers ruined my training.
Don't worry if 5.10 bring out a more pimped up kneepad you won't need that extra little bit of strength will you...
I vote for two grades if people are that concerned about knees from a stylistic point of view - it works for the BMC guides with micro-routes/highballs.
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I missed all this over the weekend, but there are some strong feelings of deja vu reading this. Surely we could just cut and past all the comments made in the thread shark started a few month ago and save a lot of time. Not much new ground covered.
I would disagree, I think the ethos of bouldering is very different to route climbing, secondly the mecca knee bars don't really drastically change the way 90% the route is climbed whereas the knees in the cave have a huge impact on the climbing and finally if the thread is of no interest to you don't contribute.
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This thread is outrageous, sexism at its worst. If Barrows was a bloke no one would have batted an eyelid. You people!
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XNhiTEWllk8/UF-K6sIBSyI/AAAAAAAAEXc/XjUCWBdzF1s/s1600/storm-in-a-teacup.jpeg)
Surely this could be applied to 95% of threads?
Why not give two grades for the problems in the cave as knees do appear to significantly alter the difficulty and character (and quality?) of the problems
Palmernator- lets not forget this is a dark damp cave perched above Llandudno with tampons sticking out of it.
Effort Barrows, after swallowing my pride (of little I have) your vid is cool and it is very impressive. I guess kneepads are here to stay, and us kneepad haters should stop being so bitter and get better at climbing (and get longer legs).
Two different grades seems (gay) but sensible to me!
This new guide book is going to be halirous. Louis Ferrino (without knees)= 7c+ (with knees)=7c (campus)=8a (without one pocket)= 7c+ (without one pocket, without knees)= 7c (without any pockets, with knees)= 8a (without any pockets, without any knees, in your underpants and one shoe)=8b
Good luck to the sucker who has nominated himself to write it!
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Maybe we should rename things with knee pads. Initial suggestions: bigger butt, poo ferrino, halfway scouse, broken fart, token wigger
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Or someone stick a bolt somewere near the start of Trigger cut. Then you can carry a rope with you and have a route grade!!! Problem solved, best get your drill out doylo!
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What a joke. Alex climbed these problems in the way he wanted / that suited him. And good effort for finding the 'rests' I say! He was completely open about the way he climbed them and fully admitted it dropped the grade (for him) using that method. Beyond this...who cares?
And now he's being forced to defend himself?? WTF? :thumbsdown: I hope it's all tongue-in-cheek.
As for kneepads changing the game. Yes, obviously they help, albeit only at certain times on certain routes/problems. Just like wearing specially designed climbing shoes, and later sticky rubber, as opposed to hob-nailed boots made it easier. And the 5.10 pad is obviously a step up from a beer towel taped round your leg, but it's hardly going to get out of hand and evolve suction cups, is it? And as for separate grades with and without pads/kneebars... :lol:
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Is this not just a case of juggy roof climbing in juggy roof climbing shocker? The features have always been there so shame on people for not using them, its not a board. There's so many hard problems in the UK which will never be knee barred it shouldn't be an issue. Never mind in such a manufactured climbing hovel. Choosing not to use easier beta is always there but you don't deserve a harder grade for being more technically dense, you don't see many people dynoing Brad Pit and taking 8B or even doing trigger cut its original way Cassidy did it with LH to the shot hole. The only reason i can see this happening is because its the cave and people treat it more like a wall than a crag.
Knees can also create amazing sequences at the (blunt uk version of the) cutting edge, e.g Dandelion Mind or like Si said, The Natural Method. Even Sidekick on the stone where knees are just one option but they dont make it way easier. If people dont use knee bars outside they'll never know what's possible when developing new problems with them. Knee bars can be really hard when used with shite angles. And some problems may never be possible without them.
If a problem is juggy enough to use your knees on and you're disappointed by people using knees on it, man up and go and climb something blanker or quietly suck it up and climb it a harder way which is more fun to you. There're only a handful of hard problems which can be used with kneebars, and its hardly like loads of people are clamouring to repeat fingery/ pure power hard classics or develop hard and blank new stuff in wales.
I've missed loads of tricks when putting up new problems before that doesn't mean people have to do it my way. Ned used a high heel on bigger belly when he repeated it, did i ban it? no. is he much better technically then me at spotting these things? yes. and he's flexible enough to use them. The way he did the Bitch with the high heel removes all the fingery climbing from it, but the heel is only useable because he's bloody good with them and so its still easier for most people to do it the fingery way. The best climbers will exploit any weakness in the rock, if you want to be a "good" climber nowadays its worth getting strong in more ways than just front on crimping, as pretty soon (i hope) there'll be problems going up which need everything just to stay on. Even if that means ending up dressing like a human condom and slithering round the rock on the odd problem. Barrows you should do a knee barring tour of the UK wideboyz style take it to the next level. Indian face with kneebars!
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Wot he sed :agree:
(How has this run to 4 pages?!?)
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Wot he sed :agree:
(How has this run to 4 pages?!?)
:agree:
No idea. I said my bit about this daft issue on this thread (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,20846.msg377960.html#msg377960).
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I think everyone did. Doesn't mean they can't say it again. And again.
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Please god, let this thread die.
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Yup. Log pile?
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(How has this run to 4 pages?!?)
i think, in part, because people keep posting things like this. I don't understand why people keep posting to say what a terrible thread it is, if you find it annoying don't read it, exercise your free will!
I agree with dan in part, but bouldering is a pretty pointless sport full of stupid rules, stupid discussions and artificially drawn grey lines (like when is a dab a dab?). This is particularly true in the UK because (as dan has so repeatedly said) there is relatively little rock suitable for hard bouldering, especially for those who do not have large amounts of free time, so i think it maybe worthwhile to try and retain, albeit slightly artificially, some of the good, difficult problems (again dan I acknowledge your contempt for the place so you can ignore the "good").
Anyway as everyone seems to be driven by some sick compulsion to read something so they can say it is terrible and pointless I will say no more.
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I'm amazed its run to 4 pages without being hijacked!
Very un-UKB.
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We had the bad puns on the first page! I can't believe it's now run to 5 pages. Can we have another page of people being in disbelief?
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I'm in disbelief :ohmy:
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Wow!
Thanks for all the productive and valuable feedback related to my previous posts, call-it education of a punter, though to be honest, I dont really feel that there has been substantial enough to change my views.
I dont think it warrants the Log Pile, there is some good stuff here if you filter through the shite.
There seems to be an issue grading within the Cave, and as I was interested in the overall impact, this is slightly :offtopic: feel free to start another thread to stop cluttering this one.
Page 5 now by the way.
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Good thread, good views.
As to those who can't believe its run to x pages, log etc etc you are in effect saying that the strongly held views which have been expressed are trivial. Maybe trivial to you, but respect that its important to others and give them space.
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For me this thread just shows that what climbing is 'about' is totally different for different people.
One man's obvious power-endurance challenge is another man's route-training playground.
Some people think kneebars look rubbish and disdain to use them, some people think they're cool and seek them out. As I see it, a bit of rubber on the knee helps the latter set of people, and makes no difference to the former set of people.
If all the worry is about 'the grade' then I've never understood why people get annoyed if people find an easier way to climb up something they've also climbed. If it gets downgraded then you climbed one problem that it turns out some people find easier than you found it. That doesn't trivialise your achievement, does it?
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when is a dab a dab?
Always Tim, always, like you even have to ask :)
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Page 5 now by the way.
Only on Page 3 here (its a setting individuals can customise in terms of number of posts/page).
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It is a shame seeing classics getting Knee'd in, I'd agree directors is a classic of the country, Taz and Malc exchanging goes, Taz's finest hour, world class if you shut your eyes (great quote). Barrows walking upside down along it does kill its cachet somewhat. But i dont think we can fight the slide into technical faggotry if the angles are there. The trouble with kneebars is that the weak are embracing them more than the strong at the moment and its upsetting the ether. Kneebars are cool, look at all these cool guys using them. Barrows you're cramping their style!
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSWfJANB7xDtxTIlfMkXZ2fiCacHV5r9_jAJfBQxChU2ud-gYp1T2pcRsRa)
(http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/63e3505d780667df4194453fb49e8ae64a21fcf.pjpg)
(http://www.climber.co.uk/userfiles/image/Climber/DDD_2180.jpg)
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Good thread, good views.
As to those who can't believe its run to x pages, log etc etc you are in effect saying that the strongly held views which have been expressed are trivial. Maybe trivial to you, but respect that its important to others and give them space.
Now you're putting words in our mouths. I for one am not saying they are trivial views. I'm certain they are strongly felt emotional responses. Benchmark boulder problems are strong characters in our life, representing ambitions and dreams, as well as signposts by which we navigate our own development and the history of the game. Kneebars are agents of change, and change makes people feel unhappy and uncomfortable. For me one of my lifelong ambitions (directors cut) suddenly became less appealing when the kneebars were found. This was a sad day for me.
But one has to disentangle an emotional response from a full world view, which can only arise from an accomodation between our gut instincts and a logical analysis of the situation. Such an analysis has to be balanced and weigh up whether an opposition to kneepads is irrational, sustainable or indeed desirable.
It is clearly irrational; why are kneepads different to sticky boots, or chalk?
It is clearly unsustainable; to oppose kneepads is to show a blindness to the history of climbing. Technological and technique developments have always been opposed, then grudgingly accepted, then embraced.
It is most likely undesirable; to adopt an opposition to kneepads is to end up in a situation where problems have arbritrary and unsatisfying rules. We had the same problems when people complained about heel hooks, or better sequences in general. The response to this in the 90s was to assert that most problems were eliminates, that heel-hooking was 'out'. Most of us had direct experience of how well this 'worked'.
So I don't accuse anyone of triviality; I only suggest they are letting their emotions hold sway and suggesting a point of view that sober consideration would likely reveal as futile at best, and wrong-headed at worst.
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I'd agree directors is a classic of the country,
*Spits out hot chocolate* :o ;D
It is a shame in some ways, it really was so hardcore and such a big deal when Cassidy did it. A real step up for power endurance problem in these parts - it was amazing to watch. The only comparable thing i'd seen at the time was Zangeryl trying to do the first ascent of Unendlicte Geschite (sp) in Magic Wood and it blew me (us) away. Then is subsequent years Robins, Dyer and Gaz all went through battles to repeat it and it was still a big deal. So that's why part of me is saddened but as i was the first person to stick a kneebar in on Trigger Cut i guess i've only got myself to blame! :tease:
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Personally, I'm in shock because I never, ever thought I'd see the day Dave "Meatball" Deary was held up as a paragon of good style...
Sheesh..
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i was the first person to stick a kneebar in on Trigger Cut i guess i've only got myself to blame! :tease:
I think the cave has become a more socailly acceptable place with the development of Kneepads. At least Doylo doesnt stink of piss when he falls over in the piss hole changing into his Jeans with an old boot glue to them!
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Kneebars are cool, look at all these cool guys using them. Barrows you're cramping their style!
You saying I'm not cool? :boxing:
Too right kneebars are cool. I just wanna be like a weaker version of DG and Pringle.
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i was the first person to stick a kneebar in on Trigger Cut i guess i've only got myself to blame! :tease:
I think the cave has become a more socailly acceptable place with the development of Kneepads. At least Doylo doesnt stink of piss when he falls over in the piss hole changing into his Jeans with an old boot glue to them!
Indeed. I've scared enough girls in there walking round in my boxers... Kneepads are so much more civilised.
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Good thread, good views.
As to those who can't believe its run to x pages, log etc etc you are in effect saying that the strongly held views which have been expressed are trivial. Maybe trivial to you, but respect that its important to others and give them space.
Now you're putting words in our mouths. I for one am not saying they are trivial views. ...... futile at best, and wrong-headed at worst.
:-\
Also when does this sober consideration take place ? Maybe during yoga for some, but the rest of us by having it out with your peer group at the crag, pub or on a thread.
I'm sure there are also some sober considering lurkers who will read the thread and make their minds up without comment.
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I just wanna be like a weaker version of DG
Surely that price goes to Newberry??
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You saying I'm not cool? :boxing:
Too right kneebars are cool. I just wanna be like a much, much, much, much, much weaker version of DG and Pringle.
See? Dreams can come true.
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Also when does this sober consideration take place ? Maybe during yoga for some, but the rest of us by having it out with your peer group at the crag, pub or on a thread.
I'm sure there are also some sober considering lurkers who will read the thread and make their minds up without comment.
I guess I'm just of the opinion that my blood pressure would be lower if people did their sober consideration before posting things on the internet.
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Dreams can come true
Look at me babe I'm better than Stu
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I wonder what Hazel's dad thinks about kneepads?
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I wonder what Hazel's dad thinks about kneepads?
He says as long as you don't use chalk to put them on ;)
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Stu, your main post if the most worthwile response yet, thank you.
How quickly did posts degenerate after that?
You are aware that there's a board called "shooting the shit", go f**k around on there. :spank:
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You are aware that there's a board called "shooting the shit", go f**k around on there. :spank:
You are aware there is a site called UKC, go f**k around there :spank:
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This debate is about as important as arguing about different ways to peel an orange*.
If you disagree with using knee pads, then don't use them! You can do the route/problem in the hardest or easiest way you see fit! They (knee pads) do not damage the rock.. so who cares!
Climbing is about the personal achievement - do it however you gain most pleasure and satisfaction.
* Personally I like to peel oranges using my thumb nail, and take a small amount of pleasure if I can get the skin off in one (with no leakage). Anyone else - do you DARE to use a knife!!! or one of those plastic peeler thingies?
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I've always actively searched out knee bars and then loudly announced them to my mates... It's become a game looking for them. I've found that in a lot of cases they don't help at all
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secondly the mecca knee bars don't really drastically change the way 90% the route is climbed
That is true about all of the climbing apart from the groove. However, the rest that can now be had once the groove is gained has had a significant effect on the route as an overall proposition. On my redpoint, when I climbed the groove from the ground with no kneebars it was at my physical limit with lactic acid flooding my system, at the absolute limit of my power endurance capability. Now I am trying the extension, I have done the link from the pocket by the 3rd bolt to the top of Mecca with the 2 no hands shake outs up the groove and this link is way easier than it was before.
I have embraced the kneebar with the rubber knee pad as it is a totally legit use of a natural feature. I personally use the little edge 2 inches above the old crumbled bolt hole instead of this bolthole for my left toe for the first kneebar as this little edge is a natural foothold but that is personal choice. I had looked at the kneebars before rubber pads came in but it didn't seem to work for me with just prana climbing trousers. no wonder most of the pioneers didn't bother with the knee without stealth, without any experience or expertise with kneebars, it didn't seem like the best way. now with the stealth pad it is a different world.
Nobody is to blame for the overlooking of the kneebar, it is just an evolution of the way the route is climbed and now it would raise eyebrows to see anybody do it without!
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... Benchmark boulder problems are strong characters in our life, representing ambitions and dreams, as well as signposts by which we navigate our own development and the history of the game. Kneebars are agents of change, and change makes people feel unhappy and uncomfortable. For me one of my lifelong ambitions (directors cut) suddenly became less appealing when the kneebars were found. This was a sad day for me.
But one has to disentangle an emotional response from a full world view, which can only arise from an accomodation between our gut instincts and a logical analysis of the situation. Such an analysis has to be balanced and weigh up whether an opposition to kneepads is irrational, sustainable or indeed desirable.
It is clearly irrational; why are kneepads different to sticky boots, or chalk?
It is clearly unsustainable; to oppose kneepads is to show a blindness to the history of climbing. Technological and technique developments have always been opposed, then grudgingly accepted, then embraced.
It is most likely undesirable; to adopt an opposition to kneepads is to end up in a situation where problems have arbritrary and unsatisfying rules. We had the same problems when people complained about heel hooks, or better sequences in general. The response to this in the 90s was to assert that most problems were eliminates, that heel-hooking was 'out'. Most of us had direct experience of how well this 'worked'.
So I don't accuse anyone of triviality; I only suggest they are letting their emotions hold sway and suggesting a point of view that sober consideration would likely reveal as futile at best, and wrong-headed at worst.
Good post.
I’ve been trying to debate about a very specific area (the cave) and a specific piece of equipment (kneepads). Not routes, not other bouldering areas and not ‘normal’ kneebars which you can use padless without having to spend £100 extra for two specialist bits of rubber mat so you can hang off them.
Kneepads do change the game, like Stu says. And they change it most of all in atypical places like the cave. Where I find myself disagreeing with Stu most of all is to what extent climbers are powerless in the face of particular changes. There aren’t any strict rules enforced on climbing – we get to make up the rules of our games to make its various genre's the most enjoyable or appealing to us. This has been proved time and time again in climbing, in examples such as styles of ascent, use or not of various bits of equipment such as bolts and pegs, even choosing set dates of year for winter-conditions ascents; the point being they’re all arbitrary decisions within an overall loose consensus of opinion. This is why I disagree with Stu when he says we're basically powerless to avoid change and are bound-over to accept all changes that come along or get left behind with the dinosaurs. The heel-spurs thing is very similar to using knee pads in the cave (I'm only talking about the cave) in that you’re adding a small piece of extra equipment for an easier way of crossing the same terrain. Climbers could still use spurs if they wanted (and some still do, I have a pair upstairs unused) but mixed-climbers as a group (with encouragement from the most well-known of them) decided that spurs reduced the challenge to the point that it didn’t ‘improve’ the game. Improve obviously being subjective but a consensus was reached and I think it had a lot to do with the twin attractions of seeking out the most difficulty and hardest grades. Or physical satisfaction and ego.
Is it really very controversial for me to say that ‘bouldering’, when played in its best guise, generally means fighting like mad to get up the hardest moves you can do, or working seemingly impossible moves until they become just about possible? I’m not ‘emotionally’ bothered by this – at least I don’t think so, it’s more of a logical/philosophical sticking point to me. The point being that the game we’ve set ourselves and which has been set for us in the cave is bouldering, with all that that entails, not bat-hang training and not route-climbing. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go and do whatever you want to do. It's always been that anyone can do things differently if they want to. You can go and use a point of aid on a route and no-one really cares.
The most likely outcome of the emergence of knee-pads, in places like the cave at least, is that some problems will have two grades and guidebook writers will in effect be artificially sustaining the cachet of challenges like Director’s Cut by giving them a lower grade with pads and a higher grade without. I think this is almost certain. And it’ll be interesting to see how it affects people’s attitudes to those problems and whether people will be more psyched for the bareback grade or the kneepad grade. Only time will tell if hanging upside down from kneepads ends up being deemed by the majority as cool, or not cool at all. At the moment I (a part-time boulder) don't think it's a particularly cool way to climb those hard cave probs. Please don't read that as a personal attack on Alex, it aint.
If anybody thinks that sounds ridiculously arbitrary and artificial then hello! welcome to planet earth. What is all of climbing if not 100% arbitrary? Does sport climbing - religiously sticking to a defined vertical corridor of rock and calling it a name and grading it, when you could just stray a few metres left or right onto a complete rest in some cases - not ring alarm bells as being one of the most arbitrary things human beings have ever thought of? How about hitting a ball back and forth across a net which has to be 3 feet high at its centre, with a racket whose ‘hitting surface shall not exceed 39.4 cm in overall length, and 29.2 cm in overall width’. Ridiculously arbitrary? Except I don’t hear many people saying ‘yeah but why not let Andy Murray use a special bigger tennis racket if it’s what he likes to do, so what if it makes it easier for him?’
Edit: I think kneepads are cool on routes and will probably use one if I get around to trying Mecca one day. Go figure. Playing different games.
Btw Alex, please could you call off your guard poodle, (three nine) he’s been nibbling my ankles presumably because he doesn’t like seeing anyone holding views different to those of his master. Thanks.
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but mixed-climbers as a group (with encouragement from the most well-known of them) decided that spurs reduced the challenge to the point that it didn’t ‘improve’ the game.
That all seems a bit strange and a limited use of "improve". Compare it to bouldering mats which, when used en masse, make a HUGE difference to previously dangerous micro-routes and solos. This could be regarded as a non-improvement as it reduces the danger and committment required, BUT has actually allowed and encouraged improvements in the style of ascent. Couldn't the same thing have happened with mixed climbing, i.e. the option to rest on spurs allowing more onsight ascents or ascents on trad gear etc etc??
Same can apply to kneepads too....yes they make it easier but if they allow more flashed ascents or allow someone to climb what would otherwise be a Font 8c+ at Font 8b+....on the subject of which....
Is it really very controversial for me to say that ‘bouldering’, when played in its best guise, generally means fighting like mad to get up the hardest moves you can do, or working seemingly impossible moves until they become just about possible? I’m not ‘emotionally’ bothered by this – at least I don’t think so, it’s more of a logical/philosophical sticking point to me. The point being that the game we’ve set ourselves and which has been set for us in the cave is bouldering, with all that that entails, not bat-hang training and not route-climbing.
How does that tally with, say, Dave Mac's Natural Method which both has a crucial kneebar AND is indubitably both "fighting like mad to get up the hardest moves you can do" and "working seemingly impossible moves until they become just about possible"??
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So... a weak sport climber goes to the cave, uses cunning, technique and technology to solve some long stamina type problems and the world is changed forever. Alex :2thumbsup:
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Weak people are like flys to this shit ::)
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Pete - I can see where you're coming from but really, does it matter how anyone gets up as long as they don't damage or change the rock? After all its only yourself you're pleasing...
If a problem is a grade easier with a knee bar - then thats the easiest method and thus the grade drops...
So what...? if you want to do it the harder way - well fill yer boots and enjoy the satisfaction of doing it the old way without any of that new fangled knee nonsense etc..!
IIRC Wasn't Brad Pit initially a 8A, then (sorry my climbing history is log) didnt a french chap come along and lob on ze heel - et voilla its suddenly easier? Now thats how everyone does it.. and a few moot 7C now instead of 7C+...
For me, the biggest game changer in bouldering in the last 30 years has been the video. Instead of trying loads of different ways - or tapping up some luurcal for secret beta you can now get on YouTube and see two, three or more different ways of doing things! But you know what - if you dont like that, you just dont watch the video! If you don't like using knee bars/pads then don't use em!
There is also a fundamental difference between a knee pad and a rock shoe. Apart from one going on a knee and the other on a foot that is.. A rock shoe shapes, supports and thus strengthens the foot artifically to allow you to step on tiny edges. The knee pad may offer more grip - but I suspect its main asset is preventing pain and bruising (Mina's reasons spring to mind) - are there any routes around where you need the sticky smearing capability of a knee pad? Knee pads will not offer anything like the level of 'game changing' support/shaping etc.. to the knee that rock boots do to the foot...
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Think BP was 8B then MlM stuck a toe on to make it 8A (there was a no heels rule in the Peak at the time). Then heel use became deregulated and it dropped to 7C+, now reckoned to be 7C due to the proliferation of videoed ascents
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The flaw with your point about wanting to choose about whether pads are accepted or not is that this has basically been decided over the last decade by the rest of the world. The change has already happened in both the US and France at the least judging by photos/videos/what I've seen in Loup, I've seen a lot of rubber pads in Spain too. If the UK 'community' decided that pads were 'cheating' then foreigners would just come and rinse the problems and downgrade them using all the tricks.
(Also, judging by this thread the majority is pro pads.)
Personally if I were writing a guide I wouldn't use 2 grades, just use the lower grade and note that the FA was done with a different method at a higher grade (either in the description or a history section) and that the problem is morpho with the new sequence and grade for those knees which are leg length dependent. Otherwise do you give a grade for with pads, a grade for knees with no pads and a grade for no knees?? Maybe a different grade depending on shorts vs jeans vs moon trousers vs prana trousers, not to mention distinguishing that the knees are best at a particular leg length. The cave aint my local though so you lot can decide what you want to do about grading. A strong local(ish) saw me do DC and seemed clear that he still wanted to do DC the original way but considered that he could now only take soft 8a+ for it irrespective of the method he used.
Like I said before, I have no interest in using pads on routes but not on boulder problems. That sounds proper :wank: to me. What about highballs? Traverses given route grades like trav of the gods? Or maybe I'm only allowed 1 type of 'pad' - either foam or rubber? :lol:
It seems you mainly object to the resting, so maybe pads are ok for moves (e.g. trigger, dandelion mind, kings of solerno, derailled etc) but not for rests? :shit:
TT - Pit was originally dynoed wasnt it? then toe then heel, with a downgrade for each improvement in method.
are there any routes around where you need the sticky smearing capability of a knee pad?
I've done 1 route where there were 2 ways I could do the crux - bad knee or jump. The knee only worked with a rubber pad.
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Think moon used the toe and MlM the heel?
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Think MlM did the second ascent, second try with the toe, then Moon repeated it this way, it was on a film "yeah Brad Pit's 'ard but not that 'ard, I'd certainly like to think I can climb harder".
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All this talk of downgrading, has anybody else actually been and tried to get into this rest? By the look of the video, Alex's left foot is fairly extended so it would appear it's quite a span, is it even going to be usable by the majority?
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PeteJH are people allowed to rest on jugs in the cave when on the longer links (i.e. the one at the start of Rock Atrocity or before the Beaver problems), or is having the stamina to recover uncool too? ;)
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Is it really very controversial for me to say that ‘bouldering’, when played in its best guise, generally means fighting like mad to get up the hardest moves you can do, or working seemingly impossible moves until they become just about possible? I’m not ‘emotionally’ bothered by this – at least I don’t think so, it’s more of a logical/philosophical sticking point to me. The point being that the game we’ve set ourselves and which has been set for us in the cave is bouldering, with all that that entails, not bat-hang training and not route-climbing. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go and do whatever you want to do. It's always been that anyone can do things differently if they want to. You can go and use a point of aid on a route and no-one really cares.
The most likely outcome of the emergence of knee-pads, in places like the cave at least, is that some problems will have two grades and guidebook writers will in effect be artificially sustaining the cachet of challenges like Director’s Cut by giving them a lower grade with pads and a higher grade without. I think this is almost certain. And it’ll be interesting to see how it affects people’s attitudes to those problems and whether people will be more psyched for the bareback grade or the kneepad grade. Only time will tell if hanging upside down from kneepads ends up being deemed by the majority as cool, or not cool at all. At the moment I (a part-time boulder) don't think it's a particularly cool way to climb those hard cave probs. Please don't read that as a personal attack on Alex, it aint.
Based on these two paragraphs, I'm not entirely sure on the reasons behind your dislike if that kneebar/kneepad...
If the kneebar Alex used turns out to be doable without a pad, but just really painful so you can have fewer goes before you get monster bruising, would you be happy for the problem to be climbed that way? I can't judge from your post whether you just don't like the idea that a power-endurance venue/problem has had its power-endurance purity "ruined" (which it still would be with a bareback knee), or whether doing the same sequence sans pad would be "right" because it doesnt use an additional piece of equipment that can be deemed as somehow "not playing the game"...?
I'd always personally have seen those cave problems as being power-stamina (theyre pretty long, as opposed to say a 5 move boulder problem) and therefore assumed that anything which goes on routes goes on that style of problem, but then I'm too weak for them anyway so what do I know.
I think Alex has a point though about the rules on pads having already been decided globally - I think it would end up being a very local quirk to declare the cave a pad-free zone (or at least to grade it as such).
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Personally if I were writing a guide I wouldn't use 2 grades, just use the lower grade and note that the FA was done with a different method at a higher grade (either in the description or a history section) and that the problem is morpho with the new sequence and grade for those knees which are leg length dependent.
I agree with the rest of your post(s), but not this bit.
If (and it is an if because I genuinely don't know)only the tallest (say 10%) of climber can get the kneebars in enough to make them worth the effort, then grading according to how hard it is for that subset makes no sense. I have nothing against tall bastards, it's just that if problems are not graded for the average of stature then a freak 10 foot man will turn up one day and we will have to downgraded half of everything in the country, if you see what I mean.
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This thread was never meant to explore whether pads would downgrade problems but discussion keeps getting dragged back to numbers, a totally seperate topic.
This is about "style", as some posters are getting.
Is using a pad a lesser style?
Do they present the opportunity to bring a problem down to the individuals level?
Are they acceptable for pushing the limits at the "cutting edge"?
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All this anti progress rubbish is why we are getting left behind in the UK.
It reminds me of Fred Rouhling's cartoon submission to OTE in response to Ben Moons comments about Hubble still bring hardest in world.
Knee bars are cool.
BTW if anyone has a copy of that cartoon, please stick it up. Would love to see it again. Genius!
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PeteJH are people allowed to rest on jugs in the cave when on the longer links (i.e. the one at the start of Rock Atrocity or before the Beaver problems), or is having the stamina to recover uncool too? ;)
You can rest on jugs in the cave? :???:
A.B. your mate's only contribution was to chip in with name calling from the sidelines during an otherwise well-natured exchange of views. Great guy.
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This thread was never meant to explore whether pads would downgrade problems but discussion keeps getting dragged back to numbers, a totally seperate topic.
This is about "style", as some posters are getting.
Is using a pad a lesser style?
Do they present the opportunity to bring a problem down to the individuals level?
Are they acceptable for pushing the limits at the "cutting edge"?
Do you like polo necks or v necks? Flairs or drainpipe jeans?
Your question about style is as daft as mine!
In the eye of the beholder and all that...
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Think moon used the toe and MlM the heel?
Apologies guys, my BP history is whack...
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AJM - it would proba ly cancel the benefit out wouldn't it? If it was so painful to use without I mean. So probably wouldn't end up being much easier.
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Good point Bonjoy. I take it back. Do it like dynos or whatever and give it the average grade with a note that it's easier for the tall/short as they can use a knee which others can't
(I have no idea if the resting knees on LF are morpho or not - there are a few nubbins for the feet and a lot of ramp so it may not be heightist, someone shorter would have to try.)
Pete - you're very focused on the resting knees. I use 2 others on DC - at the bottom of LF (this is Caff's invention I think?) and the knee on TC. Even without the rest I found these (with pads) bring the problem down to (at a guess) solid 8a+ instead of hard 8b, though it would still be a 'pure' power endurance problem. In a similar question to AJMs (which you didn't answer, presuming I could get that rest without pads - I have no idea if I could or not) - would this be as objectionable to you?
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AJM - it would proba ly cancel the benefit out wouldn't it? If it was so painful to use without I mean. So probably wouldn't end up being much easier.
Even if you could only get hands off for a shorter period of time (Alex seems to have said already that it's not the easiest position to hold) then that can't exactly harm? Obviously it's got to be more beneficial than the energy it takes to get into it, that goes without saying.
I don't know that anyone's tried, but it was more a question of your motivation than the practicalities - if somehow I acquired some technique, strength and stamina and rocked up in the cave tomorrow and crushed the problem using that rest without a pad, would you feel different about it not being what bouldering is about - is it the act of getting a hands free rest in the middle of a power endurance problem that bothers you, or just the fact he was wearing a pad when he did it?
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Jack.G - All of your questions have been answered (at length) already. There really isn't much more to say on what is a pretty simple question. The debate has reached the point of going round in circles and the same things just being said in slightly different ways.
Is using a pad a lesser style?
It's subjective. Anti-pads say yes because they think it's less cool. Pro-pads say no because climbing is about the easiest sequence and eliminates are stylistically inferior.
Do they present the opportunity to bring a problem down to the individuals level?
No, the problem is as it always was. Climbers simply failed to spot the easiest sequence. Climbers got better, the problem remains the same lump of rock it ever was. Pads DO present an opportunity for climbers to get up more challenging lines. Most seem to agree this is a positive thing.
Are they acceptable for pushing the limits at the "cutting edge"?
More than acceptable, they are essential on some things. Like Dan says, probs will be put up (if they don't already exist) which will be physically impossible without a pad.
No doubt a shrinking minority will persist in the idea they are not acceptable. Time and peer pressure will see to you lot in the end though I'm sure.
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This thread is totally worth it now that three nine has been described as Barrows' attack poodle. That made my day.
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Think moon used the toe and MlM the heel?
Apologies guys, my BP history is whack...
Aside:
Mark used the toe. Ben used the toe shortly afterwards. I don't know which visionary climber first used the heel. It was probably someone inflexible.
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Pete - you're very focused on the resting knees. I use 2 others on DC - at the bottom of LF (this is Caff's invention I think?) and the knee on TC. Even without the rest I found these (with pads) bring the problem down to (at a guess) solid 8a+ instead of hard 8b, though it would still be a 'pure' power endurance problem. In a similar question to AJMs (which you didn't answer, presuming I could get that rest without pads - I have no idea if I could or not) - would this be as objectionable to you?
No it wouldn't, getting whatever benefit you can from just your legs would be better style in my blatantly screwed up view. Weird but there you are.
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AJM - it's the fact that an extra piece of kit is needed (we assume - maybe not as above) just for the purpose of manufacturing a rest, rather than for actually climbing the problem. I'm not trying to convince anyone else anymore :lol:
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Even without the rest I found these (with pads) bring the problem down to (at a guess) solid 8a+ instead of hard 8b, though it would still be a 'pure' power endurance problem...- would this be as objectionable to you?
No it wouldn't, getting whatever benefit you can from just your legs would be better style in my blatantly screwed up view. Weird but there you are.
Hold on, let me get this right, so me using pads but not the rest wouldn't be as objectionable to you? Or have we got crossed wires here?
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Well summarised, thanks Bonjoy. I will take that away and close my part.
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Hold on, let me get this right, so me using pads but not the rest wouldn't be as objectionable to you? Or have we got crossed wires here?
Yep apologies we've got our wires crossed. I read it as being able to make something from the rest without aid of the extra knee pads. Which would be less objectionable. To me. I think.
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I can't understand ANY objection to using knees without pads. That's fully moronic in my view (but given you couldn't work out who started the tit for tat maybe that fits? :chair: :hug: )
AJM - it's the fact that an extra piece of kit is needed (we assume - maybe not as above) just for the purpose of manufacturing a rest, rather than for actually climbing the problem.
The right pad was on for the knee on LF and TC (for climbing). Then I found the rest, which I'm 90% sure would be possible without a left pad as most of the weight is on the right leg, i.e. the rest does not rely on wearing a pad 'for' the rest - you'd have it on anyway. Not that any of that really matters at all, except to you apparently.
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I'm not or ever have said that rests without pads are objectionable. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh killmenowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
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If this thread gets to ten pages then I'm deleting my account ( this would be no great loss to ukb )
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Well if we keep padding it out it might.
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Which would be less objectionable... I think.
Strong implication that it's still somewhat objectionable.
it's the fact that an extra piece of kit is needed [..] just for the purpose of manufacturing a rest, rather than for actually climbing the problem.
!
I.E. objecting to using the pads for the rests rather than using the pads full stop :-\
That's from this one page, since your whole first few pages was basically built around bashing rests, not pads specifically, I'm sure I can find more.
I'm out.
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Well if we keep padding it out it might.
I think you should leg it.
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I've really enjoyed this thread so far. Good to see so many opinions. :popcorn:
Still got to get my head round how this changes stuff, so can only imagine how it feels closer to the coal-face. Hey-ho.
Well done, Alex. Without this I would have just been watching another bushtucker trial. :shrug:
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Mark used the toe. Ben used the toe shortly afterwards. I don't know which visionary climber first used the heel.
Darren Stevenson
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I.E. objecting to using the pads for the rests rather than using the pads full stop :-\
That's from this one page, since your whole first few pages was basically built around bashing rests, not pads specifically, I'm sure I can find more.
I'm out.
I'll spell it out for you if you must be so profoundly thickheaded - I personally think that using extraneous pads to either:
a) manufacture rests on boulder problems, or
b) make use of knee bars which don't really work very well without the extraneous pads, on boulder problems
is a poorer style of climbing boulder problems. I think the above is fine on routes. How much clearer can I be than that. Agree/disagree I really couldn't give a monkeys, and anyone actually getting hot under the collar about it is retarded. Find a million and one holes in it too because it's not a watertight theory it's my viewpoint, other viewpoints are available.
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I kneed to end this torture.
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Mark used the toe. Ben used the toe shortly afterwards. I don't know which visionary climber first used the heel.
It was Steve Mac. Seriously.
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You should be allowed one pad, whether it's a knee pad or a bouldering pad is up to you.
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"the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on..."
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I kneed to end this torture.
PeteJH, I think we all need to know how hard you climb so we can decide what weight your views carry.
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Just seen the 'attack poodle' comment, ace :tease: (I'm not just saying that to show how i'm not fussed).
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I kneed to end this torture.
PeteJH, I think we all need to know how hard you climb so we can decide what weight your views carry.
No we don't (as many already know, do a bit of searching and you'll find some info on him, no need for Pete to blow his own trumpet).
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Its just that Barrows said he thought that PeteJH probably wasn't very good at climbing, like pretty much everyone else that climbs on the Orme, and that basically his posts were motivated by jealousy. That's why I puntered Pete (earning the 'poodle' smear). As pretty much the best (strongest and most technically proficent) climber in the Cave I think Barrows' arguments count for a bit more than Pete's, that's all.
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Its just that Barrows said he thought that PeteJH probably wasn't very good at climbing, like pretty much everyone else that climbs on the Orme, and that basically his posts were motivated by jealousy. That's why I puntered Pete (earning the 'poodle' smear). As pretty much the best (strongest and most technically proficent) climber in the Cave I think Barrows' arguments count for a bit more than Pete's, that's all.
You need to do some more research on who people are and whats been done where by whom.
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No i don't i'm just a poodle
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Mark used the toe. Ben used the toe shortly afterwards. I don't know which visionary climber first used the heel.
Darren Stevenson
Credit where it due, it was Chris Sharma. Not that it got him anywhere, though I think Darren was watching. I guess Darren was the first to do it with the heel though. No doubt Dawes also chucked a heel on during early attempts to settle his bet with Jerry, but it wasn't so influential.
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I remember Steve doing it with the heel, winter of '98/99 I think, when the toe was very much the approved sequence. Of course it's possible that a talented but modest dark horse (such as Chris Sharma) got in there first.
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I think the original topic is pointless. Glad its stopped.
But, I'm loving the insight into Cave politics! You guys could start a soap opera.... Caveside? ;)
Following these insights, instead of "the cave of justice", I shall now know it as "the damp, quarried, drilled, chipped hovel of wet tampons" ;)
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Following these insights, instead of "the cave of justice", I shall now know it as "the damp, quarried, drilled, chipped hovel of wet tampons, knee related jessiery and grade arguments"
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Any one got any dynamite? We could stop it all then.
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No we don't (as many already know, do a bit of searching and you'll find some info on him, no need for Pete to blow his own trumpet).
Exactly, what...
Its just that Barrows said he thought that PeteJH probably wasn't very good at climbing, like pretty much everyone else that climbs on the Orme, and that basically his posts were motivated by jealousy. That's why I puntered Pete (earning the 'poodle' smear). As pretty much the best (strongest and most technically proficent) climber in the Cave I think Barrows' arguments count for a bit more than Pete's, that's all.
...fucking drivel. Does it look like Pete's arguments are knee-jerk reactionary jealousy?? He might be wrong but he's got reasoning, coherency, analogies etc. The best climber's arguments count for more my arse, more like the best reasoned and most logical arguments count for more.
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Are you jealous of his prodigious talent too?
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Any one got any dynamite? We could stop it all then.
Good idea, shove it in the wet pockets to soak up the moisture ;)
Spraycrete would work too!
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No i don't i'm just a poodle
Settling into the role well - you haven't called him a fat punter, a fucker or a cunt in at least 4 posts now :dance1:
And as for this:
As pretty much the best (strongest and most technically proficent) climber in the Cave I think Barrows' arguments count for a bit more than Pete's, that's all.
Well that's practically a compliment! Amidst the shit stirring obviously....
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knee-jerk reactionary jealousy
very good.
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I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees :P
The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.
Ahem....
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Enough of this nonce sense (http://t.co/CQwzd04v). :w00t:
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:chair:
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(http://gifsoup.com/view/418787/train-wreck-o.gif)
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Does it look like Pete's arguments are knee-jerk reactionary jealousy?? He might be wrong but he's got reasoning, coherency, analogies etc. The best climber's arguments count for more my arse, more like the best reasoned and most logical arguments count for more.
"Coherence - a logical and orderly and consistent relation of parts"
PeteJH - "Is it really very controversial for me to say that ‘bouldering’, when played in its best guise, generally means ... working seemingly impossible moves until they become just about possible? "
Like for example, finding a better sequence involving a kneebar?
PeteJH - "You can pick holes in my argument all night long because it's as full of them as a padless trouser leg."
PeteJH - "It says a lot about the style of climbing in the cave that kneepads are so useful there - i.e. they're basically power-endurance problems, a route grade would be appropriate for the longer links."
(emphasis mine)
to compare with
PeteJH - "Routes aren't bouldering and aren't relevant to the point I'm making."
That's about as coherent as my shit after a vindaloo and three special brews.
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:shit: yuck!
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Putting a knee bar in is far different from using a knee pad. People have spoke at length about how is it different from using chalk or wearing climbing shoes. U need chalk to climb, everyone knows that, I don't really care about people doing big routes without it. U need climbing shoes to climb, everyone knows that, I don't really care about people doing the same moves over n over with trainers on. For nearly all of the climbing public at large this is a given. A knee pad is an addition that 99 out of 100 climbers will never use. Any time u put a knee bar in with a knee pad the move is easier, or the rest is possible or better than without, otherwise no one would willingly look so ridiculous. Problems aren't graded for knee pad ascents, it's not remotely the same as saying people didn't use to climb on heels. U always had heels on shoes, which is how most humans get around. Knees haven't always needed the addition of a pad. Granted most of DG's ascents have come about because of a knee pad, but problems should be graded as they have been and still are for the average person who will strangely turn up with a bag of chalk and a pair of climbing shoes. If a knee pad is used this should be noted, the rock is still the same but the challenge has become different, and everybody knows this.
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Lee. I'm disappointed in you.
"U need chalk to climb, everyone knows that"
This ain't climbing then? http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=17798 (http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=17798)
"U need climbing shoes to climb, everyone knows that"
http://www.8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread.aspx?ObjectId=7863&ObjectClass=CLS_UserNewsComment&CountryCode=GLOBAL (http://www.8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread.aspx?ObjectId=7863&ObjectClass=CLS_UserNewsComment&CountryCode=GLOBAL)
"A knee pad is an addition that 99 out of 100 climbers will never use"
A straw poll of climbers at Raven Tor this weekend showed that 75% of climbers had kneepads. Can't argue with facts.
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Apologies to those who want to discuss this in more general terms, but I’m just here to talk about the Cave (and a bit about North Wales).
I’m currently writing/producing the next North Wales Bouldering guide. I’ve already published four guides to the Cave (1998: Northern Soul fanzine, 1999: Coastal Crags fanzine, 2004: North Wales Bouldering, 2009: Parisella’s Cave). And I’ve run a website that reports first ascents and important repeats in North Wales since 2004 (admittedly less vital on Ormes stuff since the advent of Doylo’s excellent blog).
I suppose it goes without saying that I have deep emotional connection to the place. Sometimes I’ve just gone there and picked up rubbish to make it nicer for everyone (and myself of course) and to make sure that the wardens don’t get the wrong idea about us climbers.
The cave has always been an important place for Welsh bouldering, and the last 10 years have seen some incredible climbing feats in there. You do get haters, but usually this is a product of them getting their arses kicked on stuff that their egos tell them should be well within their grasp. I still hear people bitching about the goat shit – but the goats haven’t been in the cave since the early noughties (too many people for their liking).
Cutting to the chase though: seeing a classic benchmark problem like Director’s Cut broken down in this way is gutting. It just seems wrong on so many levels. (Remember when that tall German bloke did the sds to Brad Pit – he was immediately disregarded by the Peak cognoscenti) All that being said, what Alex has done doesn’t really change anything – he is too tall for his methods to be applicable to a general grade consensus.
There are no essential knee bars in the cave, all of the moves or rests can be achieved, and have been done without. Also the cave knee bars only really work with proper rubber pads, and some of the popular ones like the one on Trigger Cut are only do-able if you are a 6 footer. (e.g. Pete Robins is 5.10 and he can’t get the Trigger Cut knee bar to work) [Although I'm sure some short arse will pop up now and say it does work for them.]
In the new guide (due out next year) certain cave problems will be described with two grades: one for a traditional ascent and one for those who are wearing rubber kneepads, and can get them to work (a 6ft tall climber has this option). On the page these two snippets of info will be tiny – I see no reason not to mention the differing grade assessments, especially when the knee-padded climbing experience is not available to the many shorter or medium build climbers.
That seems to fit where we are at this particular point in time. Guidebooks are historical records; they are not meant to predict the future (maybe in 2020 we'll all be climbing in magnetic rubber suits with augmented reality sequence providers), although they can influence it.
I can see that rubber kneepads are here to stay, but how we fit them into the game is up to us. There will be a few problems (but not that many) outside of the Cave that have critical knee bars. I’ll consider those on a case by case basis.
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So which grade do you take if you use the kneebars but no rubber?
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U need chalk to climb, everyone knows that, I don't really care about people doing big routes without it.
Nor this (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,20604.0.html) (although I expect it will be dismissed as "big routes", but how else are they ascended if its not climbing, certainly not levitation!)
So which grade do you take if you use the kneebars but no rubber?
Split grade obviously!
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I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees :P
The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.
Ahem....
Don't break your arm patting your own back.
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I'd agree with your post Si, seems the only sensible option open.
I'm sorry to disappoint stu, I knew someone would come back at me with sense. I'm also sorry to hear about the queuing time on Mecca getting even longer now. On the plus side people wil have more time to discuss their various diets and how they're not feeling too well at the moment ;D
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So which grade do you take if you use the kneebars but no rubber?
Very unlikely to happen - that person (should they exist) can take whatever grade they like.
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On the plus side people wil have more time to discuss their various diets and how they're not feeling too well at the moment.
Comedy genius as ever ;D
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I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees :P
The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.
Ahem....
Don't break your arm patting your own back.
In tomtom's favour, his was actually a deliberate joke!
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seeing a classic benchmark problem like Director’s Cut broken down in this way is gutting. It just seems wrong on so many levels.
Why?? I'm genuinely curious.
In the new guide (due out next year) certain cave problems will be described with two grades: one for a traditional ascent and one for those who are wearing rubber kneepads, and can get them to work (a 6ft tall climber has this option). On the page these two snippets of info will be tiny – I see no reason not to mention the differing grade assessments, especially when the knee-padded climbing experience is not available to the many shorter or medium build climbers.
:agree: seems very sensible.
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So which grade do you take if you use the kneebars but no rubber?
Very unlikely to happen - that person (should they exist) can take whatever grade they like.
The reason its unlikely to happen is not because its impossible but because you would be making the problem artificially more difficult by choosing not to use available equipment. Like if you campus the whole thing do you get 8C+? I don't see it as any different to any other morpho problem.
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In reply to Mr Panton RE the Cave, totally agree that this is overblown, given that as you rightly say only tall climbers can get them in, as opposed to any old Larry with a kneepad. With this in mind, surely just a short note along the lines of "all problems are easier for lanky pricks" would suffice? This would apply throughout the guide too - could go on front cover? Plus this solution surely removes everyone's kneepad angst; after all, doesn't everyone already hate tall people???? Perhaps you could have a frontispiece consisting of mugshots of tall people who deserve to be barracked if seen in the street? Name suggestions?
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How tall is TALL?
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Barrows, nodders, willackers to start with, Doylo too come to think of it.
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Somehow dense's presence alone encourages a reasonable and fair conclusion for all concerned :goodidea:
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What happens if some stumpy finds a kneebar in the cave that medium to tall folks cant fit? People are armed with pads and hunting out the potential it seems, it may happen.
What about a grade range for each problem, with matrix for short/med/lank kneecap-to-toe measurements, and a weighting factor for time spent bat-hanging.
Shoe-horning this into the grading system is a bit ridiculous, no?
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In reply to Mr Panton RE the Cave, totally agree that this is overblown, given that as you rightly say only tall climbers can get them in, as opposed to any old Larry with a kneepad.
Not quite true for all the knees - the one low down on LF was shown to me by Twyford who apparently got it from Caff. There's one coming over the arch on pilgrim which I thought I'd found until Stu told me that's his method. My greenheart crux sequence is apparently similar to Robins'...
Also the cave knee bars only really work with proper rubber pads
Not all of them - see above. Think LF, pilgrim and greenheart have all been done using knees but not pads.
In the new guide (due out next year) certain cave problems will be described with two grades: one for a traditional ascent and one for those who are wearing rubber kneepads, and can get them to work
What happens when someone (e.g. Caff) does DC using a pad for the move on LF but not using the TC knee? Does he have to take the pad grade :lol: (not that he'd care what grade it gets in the guide no doubt). Perhaps better to ignore the reference to the pad and say "Director's Cut 8B: LF into Halfway. There are a variety of knees only useable by those with long legs which make the problem more like soft 8A+"
Perhaps you could have a frontispiece consisting of mugshots of tall people who deserve to be barracked if seen in the street?
DMX - Bring Your Whole Crew (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTZe3ZEQ5K4#)
A straw poll of climbers at Raven Tor this weekend showed that 75% of climbers had kneepads. Can't argue with facts.
And I have enough to go round ;D
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What happens if some stumpy finds a kneebar in the cave that medium to tall folks cant fit? People are armed with pads and hunting out the potential it seems, it may happen.
What about a grade range for each problem, with matrix for short/med/lank kneecap-to-toe measurements, and a weighting factor for time spent bat-hanging.
Pigeon-holing this into a grading system is a bit ridiculous, no?
The whole topic's a bit ridiculous.
N.B. Metal Arms has done nothing in the cave, or indeed any hard grade problem or route, anywhere, ever. Nor does he own a knee-pad. Related? Possibly...
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I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees :P
The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.
Ahem....
Don't break your arm patting your own back.
In tomtom's favour, his was actually a deliberate joke!
I suspected as much.
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Don't worry short people i have a new type of knee pad coming out on the market which by using stealth rubber shims can increase your lower leg length by up to 100mm in 5mm increments. Easy to adjust even halfway along a problem or up a route by simply hanging from one knee bar and adding or reducing the size of the other pad using the shims carried in our specially designed pouch.
We are also working with La sportive on a platform sole using the same principle that will, in conjunction with the above pad, add over 250mm to your height.
Anyone interested go to
www.howweakpeopleruinedclimbing.com
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How tall is TALL?
SCIENCE ALERT.
OK, if we take the average height of the UK male population to be
1.75m, with a SE/SD of 0.11 - we could have a stab at defining tall people as being those outside of the mean height + the SD, meaning you are tall if you are greater than 1.86m.
At 6'3" I am 1.9m - so officially tall. Up yours hobbits ;)
For the those wanting the English units, the 'Tall' threshold is 6'1" (and a little bit)
( http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2005/wp29grsp/HR-04-14e.pdf (http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2005/wp29grsp/HR-04-14e.pdf) )
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I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees :P
The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.
Ahem....
Don't break your arm patting your own back.
In tomtom's favour, his was actually a deliberate joke!
I suspected as much.
The original use of Knee-jerk was Serpico's pun - I wouldnt want to take credit for another mans punditry...
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Having scientifically measured 3 people in the wall right now,
181 cm tall with a floor to knee of 57.5 cm
184 cm tall with a floor to knee of 55 cm
174 cm tall with a floor to knee of 56 cm
So first of all at 5 foot 11 I am denying being tall,
Second of all the whole height thing is bullshit it depends on your lower leg.
Not sure what I am trying to prove here?
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SCIENCE ALERT.
OK, if we take the average height of the UK male population to be
1.75m, with a SE/SD of 0.11 - we could have a stab at defining tall people as being those outside of the mean height + the SD, meaning you are tall if you are greater than 1.86m.
<pedant>
Standard E (of the Mean) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_error) = SD / sqrt(n) and is useful for knowing how accurate a point estimate such as the mean is and not the amount of variation observed within a given sample.
( http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2005/wp29grsp/HR-04-14e.pdf (http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2005/wp29grsp/HR-04-14e.pdf) )
They quote SE's so you'd need to know what sample size they used in order to determine the standard deviation (SD = SE * sqrt(n)).
</pedant>
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seeing a classic benchmark problem like Director’s Cut broken down in this way is gutting. It just seems wrong on so many levels.
Why?? I'm genuinely curious.
As Stu/Dan said earlier, it's an important problem. Even though I've got no chance of doing it (even wearing my 2020 magnetic rubber suit) I am glad it exists. I'd got used to it being there, and watching the top Cave boys (Ding Dong, Danny Cattell, Gaz, Pete etc) on it has inspired me to go off and try a bit harder. Watching that footage of Alex left me with a bad feeling - it didn't inspire me one iota.
I know this is an emotional response, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid. The way we feel matters just as much as the way we think.
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Bottom line is the cave used to be cool and now its wank.
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You can do the kneebars without pads it's just harder. When I first did Trigger Cut I kneebarred to get the shothole with a towel round my knee. However For the new sequence where you do all the tricky moves off a knee this probably wouldn't work. And I object to being described as tall as Barrows and newman. If I could have done my pill box traverse with my feet on the floor it wouldn't have take me 40 days!
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If we replace the word "cool" with "wank" then balance is restored in the world. Ure not half an inch taller than me nodders, u measure to the top of your head!
The way ure feeling about Alex now Chris is just the way that us normal folk have thought about all you lot down the yrs ;)
Tall people are tall and midgets have genetic mong strength, that's just the way it is
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Wank is the new Cool and Tall is the new Short ;)
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yep 181 cm checked thrice and validated by 2 others I can provide video evidence if I really have too
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Tall people are tall and midgets have genetic mong strength, that's just the way it is
Where does that leave you then Bonse? ;)
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I guess I sneak into tall and weak then. Quite a cool video I thought but if I tried it in future I'd just use the old methods (despite having the lanky shins to cram in those knees) to get the satisfaction/challenge of trying it the hard way. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to anyone else!
Waiting for in hell and in life to get the barrows treatment now!
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yep 181 cm checked thrice and validated by 2 others I can provide video evidence if I really have too
You might be a sub 6 footer, just, (5ft and 10.59 inches), but your arms are about 16 foot long. Or maybe you're just really stretchy?
I went for a health check once and the nurse told me that most people think they are taller and lighter than what they actually are.
Anyway, it seems that leg proportions are more important than height...
...same principal applies though.
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Waiting for in hell and in life to get the barrows treatment now!
Not tried the bottom bit but...
There's a knee at the start of RA. Not useful on the RA links as it involves hands being on the left, but a shake and chalk on pilgrim(age) and the leftwards links probably. Only put it in once to see how it was, might be useable no hands with some playing with the body position and a strong core, I don't know. (It's not leg length dependent and it had already been found so I accept no responsibility for any ensuing downgrades)
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Bye Moo :rtfm: :wave:
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I was wondering at what point in the thread tall people might take a bashing :lol:
For what it's worth, I haven't seen some parts of the thread as pointless since the majority of us impart a great meaning upon the ethics of our climbing.
I also think that Simon's effort to reconcile and transpose all of these differences of opinion into a tangible action for the purposes of the guidebook is a sound one - i.e. distilled most simply to a grading range that takes into account a number of factors.
Consider some of these core factors necessary to formulate a grade:
a) Height (the antecedent of all grading factors)
b) With or without kneebar (a perhaps slightly more latter-day grading factor)
Attempting to merge this set of variables:
Scenario:
1. Climber A is short, can't get a kneebar and gets 7c+ for Problem 1.
2. Climber B is tall, and either doesn't use a kneepad or the kneebar and takes 7c (the middle value)
3. Climber C is tall, uses a kneepad and gets 7b+/7c for Problem 1.
I think Slackers touches lucidly upon what constitutes 'short' and what constitutes 'tall'. Proceed from here as you wish.
I for one fall into the middle of these categories and though I might never own or use a kneepad, I could still sleep at night knowing that my similarly tall accomplice climbed the same problem with a kneepad and took a split grade. I could also sleep if he took the full grade or the grade above since I climb for myself and myself only. Similarly, I would suffer no disturbance if a short climber received the higher grade where reach is the predominant factor that he or she simply does not possess.
N.B - At times, I wouldn't have minded some similar sporting compensation on some of the occasions where I have been forced to biomechanically compress myself into a ball to get off the ground. That said, I have come to realise that it all comes out in the wash and is indeed a case of 'swings and roundabouts'. Bonjoy said it best, Nige concurred and I'll reiterate - life isn't fair, move on.
Naturally, I can see that in the upper echelons of the sport where sponsorship depends upon performance, this matter has arguably more practicable relevance than at my level. That said, climbing is a part of my own raison d'être and at times it does matter to me what I 'get' for what I have done. I just wonder whether utilising the spread of a whole grade might be a useful means of departure at a point in time that we are asked to integrate these combinations of additional factors?
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Femur two cents giving problems a split grade because of knees is a big mistake (but mentioning everything is easier for the tall but weak makes sense).
Malc used knees galore on Gutbuster and a pad, but not on pilgrimage does that mean i have to climb pilgrimage without but its ok on gutbuster?
I can see 2 opinions coming through here.
A:Some people really care about 1 problem/venue and aren't fussed about much else, they know the score with all the climbs and the history, some maybe first hand. (good "style" counts) probably climb much harder (and more often) at said venue than elsewhere and quite rightfully it hits a nerve if the rules all change.
B: Some people just see another bit of rock, one of billions all equal in that they are just a single stop in the choo choo send train. Use everything to get up it and get onto the next one. They use every trick in the book to get it done fast, enjoy it for what it is and move onto the next one, they might ride the kneebar train all the way for a while and thats cool if thats what they want to do, A: might see this as cheating the system but for B: its just part of climbing.
Group A: we can call locals, B visitors (although visitors can be frequent)
The most dignified solution is for A to let the rules change, like many are,(brave and humble) but may wish to bitch about it and kick up a stink letting everyone know how much easier it is now if your weak and tall. (hence this forum) but eventually concede to logic that its just one tiny bit of rock, with a fuck load of right angles in, knee bar heaven, and its going to get hammered by tall weak people desperate to look strong with the cool kids. Isn't the diamond where its at nowadays anyway?
Non of the above should get in the way of grading things properly, downgrading problems due to easier beta (and it sounds like kneebars are available for all people sizes, which makes sense as we all have knees and a brain) is just part of climbing. There's nothing shitter than having a guide with loads of rules to keep old problems artificially hard and new ones like isles of wonder next to them which are at the cutting edge and i'm sure Robins used all the kneebars available on it, which is zero, same as most of the other hard blocs in the country.
Like a bunch of us are saying if climbers give kneebars a chance in the next guide you might have an 8B+ with one in thats a stunning line and impossible without it. My current kneebar pad is a cut up anasazi velcro with the straps lengthened, it works miles better than the 5.10 one (which i also have) its free, after you buy the shoes, and it takes about 30mins effort to make. We're hardly talking about riding in the superman position whilst pumped up on EPO and Belgian Mix. I use it on maybe 1 problem in 30, of the 4 8Bish independent blocs i've put up this year i'd have tried to use it on all of them but unfortunately i've found a lot of properly hard climbing is pretty bloody blank. Last year it made Dandelion easier and more fun and i tried to use one on bewilderness but my knees are too weak so i had to use my fingers.
Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.
Barrows, Stu can teach you how to be cool, dont worry. he had kneebar pads way before they were trendy and he can campus nails board moves with the best of them.
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There's nothing shitter than having a guide with loads of rules to keep old problems artificially hard and new ones like isles of wonder next to them which are at the cutting edge and i'm sure Robins used all the kneebars available on it, which is zero, same as most of the other hard blocs in the country.
Amen.
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There's nothing shitter than having a guide with loads of rules to keep old problems artificially hard and new ones like isles of wonder next to them which are at the cutting edge and i'm sure Robins used all the kneebars available on it, which is zero, same as most of the other hard blocs in the country.
Amen.
:agree:
(apart from at almscliffe).
p.s don't go Moo!
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People can climb what they like however they like, and take whatever grade they think appropriate.
All the guide does (clue is in the name) is 'guide' you where problems go and give you a rough 'guide' of how hard they should feel for the average climber...and in this specific case (and the Cave is a very specific, nay unique case) how hard it will be if you use rubber knee pads, or not.
Why is that such a big deal?
I've no problem with people using kneepads to break new ground (i.e. new moves) - Doylo has just done exactly that on his Tramps Tea Party. But in the Cave there ain't much left except the mega link ups. We can either wait for some wonder kid to come along with a next level of fitness and strength (shame Liam Desroy gave up he might have fitted the bill) or we just accept that a yard dog strapped up in rubber will climb those big challenges at a much lower grade. Is that progress? Is it inevitable? Do I feel the tide lapping against my feet? ("Go away tide I command thee to stop!")
I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?
I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?
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Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.
That's true, shoe selection can make all the difference on hard heel manourvres. An oversized Anasazi with a bit of sag in the back has sorted me out on numerous occasions. As has a ridged Mad Rock, you need all the help you can get when you're tall and weak. 8)
I don't know what to think about grading these things in guides. On one hand it seems cluttered and daft to give things two grades but at the same time it also makes little sense to grade things for the vast minority.
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Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.
Years back I was trying el pousah with the toehook method, not getting anywhere, the toehook felt shit. then had a go where I overshot the toehook and the edge of the velcro strap caught on the toehook spot, felt like a jug!
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"I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here" - Pantonino
I really don't think so (and hope not). It's just people calling eliminates eliminates.
Basically what Carlisle said... Kneepads are part and parcel of modern climbing. You can choose not to use them if you wish but be under no illusion as to what you're doing - you're climbing eliminates. The one bit I slightly disagree with him (and agree with Si), is that I don't see any problem with a guidebook giving grades for eliminates as well as proper problems - especially at venues like this. There are problems at Almscliff which have double figures of grades for different styles of ascent - with / without heels, with / without toehooks, with / without feet, one handed, facing outwards with one hand scratching arse etc etc... For the most part guidebooks haven't bothered including such things, but I've little doubt that one day someone will write a 1000 page guide just to Almscliff bouldering, with all the variations under the sun. And no doubt you could do something similar in the Cave. It's the nature of the beast at steep crags which people use for training.
And obviously, if the easiest sequence is something which only a few really tall people can do, it's probably best when writing a guide to give the grade for relatively normal people, and just mention that it's considerably easier for folks with the appropriate lank. Just the same as for toe hooks or any other sequence alternative which only works for a small subset of people.
I'm pretty amazed though that these discussions about whether kneepads are "valid" are happening in 2012. It's like being in Rifle two decades ago. And seems about as relevant to modern climbing as the folks discussing whether chalk is "valid" on the other channel.
Having said that, I do understand the folks questioning "where does it all end" in terms of additional paraphernalia as technology improves. If someone invented some kind of ridiculously thin rubber glove, which was way stickier than skin, then I'm quite sure it wouldn't be accepted. But such things are science fiction, and might never happen anyway. With current technology the situation is pretty clear - you can wrap as much rubber around any part of you're anatomy that you see fit. If this means that some classic routes / problems get easier when folks find better sequences then, well, that's been happening since climbers have touched rock.
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Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.
Years back I was trying el pousah with the toehook method, not getting anywhere, the toehook felt shit. then had a go where I overshot the toehook and the edge of the velcro strap caught on the toehook spot, felt like a jug!
I did El Poussah with baggy anasazi heel, bomber.
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JlSQAZEp3PA (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JlSQAZEp3PA)
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Good job there was no internet when Fires replaced EBs!
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Regarding how to write up the grade/knees or not I think the Peak Bouldering Guide does a masterful job of understatedly covering the thorny issue of heels on The Green Traverse.
"The Green Traverse, 7a, From the rounded blob on the arete traverse left displaying as little technique as possible".
A gentle reminder to those that care enough or know enough to decode it that the correct way is to not use heels, but not getting so bothered about it as to ruin the day of anybody who just wants to climb the rock as they find it.
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People can climb what they like however they like, and take whatever grade they think appropriate.
All the guide does (clue is in the name) is 'guide' you where problems go and give you a rough 'guide' of how hard they should feel for the average climber...and in this specific case (and the Cave is a very specific, nay unique case) how hard it will be if you use rubber knee pads, or not.
Why is that such a big deal?
I've no problem with people using kneepads to break new ground (i.e. new moves) - Doylo has just done exactly that on his Tramps Tea Party. But in the Cave there ain't much left except the mega link ups. We can either wait for some wonder kid to come along with a next level of fitness and strength (shame Liam Desroy gave up he might have fitted the bill) or we just accept that a yard dog strapped up in rubber will climb those big challenges at a much lower grade. Is that progress? Is it inevitable? Do I feel the tide lapping against my feet? ("Go away tide I command thee to stop!")
To be honest, if it's a long link then it's going to be effectively a route (in that it'll have more moves than many routes) and so it seems like progress would be to use all the efficient tactics available to climb it with the minimum of effort - you wouldn't respect anyone who ignored all the kneebars on a cave roof in Spain at the same angle more than someone who rested across it, so why does it change just because the roof is a bit lower? Maybe this is my route climbers mindset showing though, I don't know.
Given that a few people have commented that some of these kneebars have already been used to some extent or are useable without pads, are you going to assume in the guidebook grade that the "average climber" isn't good enough to use any of them (it reads as though the "with pads" grade will be secondary), pad or no? I guess if so all that effectively means is that you're preserving a historical picture of the cave as it was...
I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?
I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?
From the position of the dispassionate observer, that's not how this thread has read to me at all. Your choosing to use the argument reads, to be honest, like a way to try and turn this into an "us and them" argument, which always makes it easier to reinforce your views at the expense of theirs.
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I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?
I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?
:???:
I think you might have a worse impression of us than we have of you....
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Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.
Years back I was trying el pousah with the toehook method, not getting anywhere, the toehook felt shit. then had a go where I overshot the toehook and the edge of the velcro strap caught on the toehook spot, felt like a jug!
I did El Poussah with baggy anasazi heel, bomber.
I did something similar on fata cos i can't catch wee pockets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIyqloiXcMM
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Us and them... I like it. Can we have some east-side west-side beef? Which one of the Welsh crew is 2pac?
and in this specific case (and the Cave is a very specific, nay unique case) how hard it will be if you use rubber knee pads, or not.
It's not really unique - see wheel of life cave. Lord knows what they do for a guide for that place. (Plus Rifle/Maple etc if you allow route comparison - they're fairly pad specific from what I've heard)
I've no problem with people using kneepads to break new ground (i.e. new moves) - Doylo has just done exactly that on his Tramps Tea Party. But in the Cave there ain't much left except the mega link ups. We can either wait for some wonder kid to come along with a next level of fitness and strength (shame Liam Desroy gave up he might have fitted the bill) or we just accept that a yard dog strapped up in rubber will climb those big challenges at a much lower grade.
Pads being ok for new problems but not established ones? :thumbsdown: Or maybe it's that they're cool when your mates use them but not when raiders come along with them? ;)
What's that on Caff's leg at 2:10?
Hatch Life High 8a FA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wefiEkMC5qY#ws)
I wouldn't worry too much about something like the in hell - clyde link, I'd be surprised if there's a no hander there, unless there's something up of the first part of bonnie/clyde. The LF ramp is a pretty obvious place for one to be honest, as soon as Twyford mentioned a knee on LF to me back in Spring that's how I presumed it would work (she was actually referring to the low one which you can't pin on me)
I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?
Gaz didn't seem bothered. In fact "I must admit I like my knee bar". That was before he saw the video though. I hope he's not angry, he could definitely beat me up.
Didn't Dan say earlier in this thread that Malc used pads to full effect on something hard at dumby recently?
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When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.
I can see the same becoming true of pads when other manufacturers get in the game (or even using a bit of DIY).
I do wonder where the bounds of acceptability are with this; I used pads on a route last year where my knee didn't fit, to get it to work I rolled up two knee supports and taped them on effectively lengthening my lower leg, back around?
If people start putting ridges on pads (Madrock perhaps), is that ok? ...certainly if someone fashioned a rubber hook on a kneepad I doubt people would be so keen to embrace 'change'.
I don't think I'm arguing against pads with this though, knees combined with pads are inevitable. Its more a shame that on this relatively small isle there happens to be a hands-off rest in one of the best* power endurance problems we have (had).
(*highly subjective)
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Given that a few people have commented that some of these kneebars have already been used to some extent or are useable without pads, are you going to assume in the guidebook grade that the "average climber" isn't good enough to use any of them (it reads as though the "with pads" grade will be secondary), pad or no? I guess if so all that effectively means is that you're preserving a historical picture of the cave as it was...
Not 'good enough', rather that they don't fit, or would prefer to climb the problem sans pad/bareback etc. Obviously I have expressed some personal views here but I will endeavour to represent the grade info in a non judgemental manner in the guide. People can make up their own minds about how they want to climb these problems (I anticipate a question now, i.e.: Which grade is given the most prominence? My answer: I'm not sure as we haven't done that chapter of the guide yet.)
I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?
I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?
From the position of the dispassionate observer, that's not how this thread has read to me at all. Your choosing to use the argument reads, to be honest, like a way to try and turn this into an "us and them" argument, which always makes it easier to reinforce your views at the expense of theirs.
Context is, as always, everything. The Cave has a long history of being dissed and conveniently disregarded. Strange given that it contains one of the highest concentrations of hard climbing in the UK. That said, maybe you are right and I am misreading the sentiment in some of these postings. I am injured and pretty pissed off/frustrated at the moment.
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I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?
I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?
:???:
I think you might have a worse impression of us than we have of you....
Apologies Bonjoy, I guess I'm just a bit grumpy at the moment.
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It's not really unique - see wheel of life cave. Lord knows what they do for a guide for that place. (Plus Rifle/Maple etc if you allow route comparison - they're fairly pad specific from what I've heard)
The fact that you have to go to the other side of the world to find a comparison reinforces my belief that it is at the very least 'quite unique' Also check this thread: [url]http://www.8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread.aspx?ObjectId=25294&ObjectClass=CLS_UserNewsComment&CountryCode=GLOBAL[/url "James did not use knee pads as Dai koyamada did not use them when he put up the original line."]
Pads being ok for new problems but not established ones? :thumbsdown: Or maybe it's that they're cool when your mates use them but not when raiders come along with them? ;)
The big difference is that you are just bringing old established test pieces down to your level. He is establishing an entirely new piece of climbing (real creativity), and it is not in the Cave either.
What's that on Caff's leg at 2:10?
I'm sure he was just trying it out to see what all the fuss is about...
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When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.
I can see the same becoming true of pads when other manufacturers get in the game (or even using a bit of DIY).
I do wonder where the bounds of acceptability are with this; I used pads on a route last year where my knee didn't fit, to get it to work I rolled up two knee supports and taped them on effectively lengthening my lower leg, back around?
If people start putting ridges on pads (Madrock perhaps), is that ok? ...certainly if someone fashioned a rubber hook on a kneepad I doubt people would be so keen to embrace 'change'.
I don't think I'm arguing against pads with this though, knees combined with pads are inevitable. Its more a shame that on this relatively small isle there happens to be a hands-off rest in one of the best* power endurance problems we have (had).
(*highly subjective)
Well said Paul. :agree:
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I'm sorry Nemo and Carlisle, I've just read u saying that knee pads are part and parcel of climbing and u can choose not to use them if u wish but if u do be under no illusion that ure climbing eliminates. Unfortunately I choose to climb as god intended, with chalk on my hands sticky rubber on my feet and the wind beneath my wings. I don't want to buy a knee pad, nor do I imagine do 98 out of 100 other people I would ask if only they'd speak to me. The cave is a very specific place like dan says, the comparisons with Spanish routes are just mind blowing. Like I've said problems should and have been graded for joe average, if Si wants to put an addendum for out of the ordinary ascents then that's his choice. Every one knows stuff is easier with pads or there wouldnt be such a fuss about them. If I were u dan i'd go easy on the cave, I wouldn't want to completely piss off another nation or nx yr you'll have to start bouldering in fairhead.
I can't remember who made the HMC comment but if ure alluding to WOL, it was climbed by dai, in shorts. Blue if I remember correctly
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Ps we are on a bouldering forum here, I don't care if sharmas bird has got 2kneepads 2 elbow pads, tape running up the length of both her forearms and wearing a rubber headband for headrests. That's not bouldering n everyone knows it
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I can't remember who made the HMC comment but if ure alluding to WOL, it was climbed by dai, in shorts. Blue if I remember correctly
And then Pringle, Graham and Dory using kneepads (and Parsons and Kassay without)
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I have no idea about crisps but, here it is, DG and ID didn't do WOL. Watch all the vids n then get back to me. Don't let 74 moves confuse you. I mean we all know Webb is out of his mind but he very occasionally has moments of clarity, and then snaps. If this hurts so much put it on another thread and we'll keep this one about knee bars
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excellent thread
I've made a start top roping the classic gritstone slab routes this winter. With all the mud and scrittle on my shoes making my feet skid off repeatedly, I was thinking of using knee pads to help me get a better grip.
Will this help?
many thanks
Bumbling Grade Whore from Heeley
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It may help but I suggest you find a crack to wedge said knee in for a rest, unfortunately it won't change the overall grade of the climb but you can be smug in the knowledge that most people won't bring a knee pad to the party and you'll be the centre of attention
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you can be smug in the knowledge that most people won't bring a knee pad to the party and you'll be the centre of attention
I'll buy a pair
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Where's the dg vid?
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Ps we are on a bouldering forum here, I don't care if sharmas bird has got 2kneepads 2 elbow pads, tape running up the length of both her forearms and wearing a rubber headband for headrests. That's not bouldering n everyone knows it
We might be on a bouldering forum but the labels for routes and boulder problems are increasingly indistinct when you have link-ups at Parisella's with twice as many moves as Hubble and lines on grit that can be led or highballed.
Thanks for sharing your Daila fantasy
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Which is why I've repeatedly agreed for a cave-eat. It's fine there
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(http://flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/in/photostream)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/#in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/#in/photostream)
edit: sorry im too thick to work out how to post an image
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I can't remember who made the HMC comment but if ure alluding to WOL, it was climbed by dai, in shorts. Blue if I remember correctly
And then Pringle, Graham and Dory using kneepads (and Parsons and Kassay without)
Alex, bit of an own goal, bringing up Wheel of Life, no?
Especially as you (and a few others) tried to suggest that the Parisella's 'no knee pads' idea was some kind of bizarre/out of step anomaly. Turns out it is anything but that. Turns out that some climbers, way over on the other side of the world, have come to the same conclusion, namely that you are kidding yourself if you reduce someone else's epic first ascent achievement to a series of rubber aided rests.
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(http://flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/in/photostream)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/#in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/#in/photostream)
edit: sorry im too thick to work out how to post an image
Use the "Share" link above the picture. Under this is a "Grab HTML/BBCode" you want the BBCode to paste into this forum, select your size then copy and paste et voila...
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8210/8225914225_3dcd8c4861.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/)
poodle walk (http://www.flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/#) by dod2002 (http://www.flickr.com/people/90566228@N03/), on Flickr
Explained in the handy How to Embed Pictures to UKBouldering : Backlinking Flickr the easy way (http://ukbouldering.com/wiki/index.php/HowTo_Embed_Pictures_to_UKBouldering#Backlinking_Flickr_the_easy_way) page on the UKB Wiki .
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Dod, that is ace. Fact.
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Alex, bit of an own goal, bringing up Wheel of Life, no?
Especially as you (and a few others) tried to suggest that the Parisella's 'no knee pads' idea was some kind of bizarre/out of step anomaly. Turns out it is anything but that. Turns out that some climbers, way over on the other side of the world, have come come to same conclusion, namely that you are kidding yourself if you reduce someone else's epic first ascent achievement to a series of rubber aided rests.
Maybe. :oops: I don't think they have a 'no knee pads rule' though, just that Kassay wanted to do it without for his own motivation. My point was more that visiting climbers will come and use pads, whether you like it or not. (In the same way, Tor locals might like to do ben's roof using the original line but no-one would expect anyone other than the local devotees to use the right hand exit nowadays)
Kassay doesn't seem to mind pads nearly as much as you:
"For travelling tourists who don’t have the time to commit to the cave that I have and just want to start at the bottom and climb to the top then I think they are a great option and I still respect the people who have done it that way! It just wasn’t the way I was going to do it."
"Ultimately I set myself a personal goal and that was the way I was going to do it. "
Doesn't seem to think DG/ID/EP are 'kidding themselves' or 'reducing Dai's achievement'. Or maybe he's just being nice rather than saying what he thinks.
Kidding yourself would be taking 8B for DC when you're tall and using pads, or thinking that the challenge is the same. It's not, and that will be obvious to anyone who does it in that style. Kidding yourself would also - in my opinion - be thinking that doing these things without pads in this day and ages is anything other than eliminate. Not that that matters if that sort of thing isn't important to you. Personally I think that 'reducing' an obvious line/challenge (e.g. something like dorsal stream) to an eliminate is worse than 'reducing' the achievement of the FA, but that's purely personal opinion.
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Turns out that some climbers, way over on the other side of the world, have come to the same conclusion, namely that you are kidding yourself if you reduce someone else's epic first ascent achievement to a series of rubber aided rests.
I think thats:
a) your conclusion, not theirs (see alex's quotes from Kassay);
b) pretending Alex is saying something he's not. Show me where he claims that what he's done is comparable to Cassidy's first ascent in any way. If he hasn't, then how is he 'kidding himself' - or anyone else for that matter?
The nub of the problem here seems to be that people find it really hard to get to grips with the fact that a boulder problem evolves. I can understand the emotional desire to 'preserve' director's cut as the balls-out power endurance feat it originally was. Unfortunately, it's a position in defiance of the facts of the ground. DC is a different proposition now, and no amount of teeth grinding and wishing it wasn't so will change that. The architecture of the problem is at fault, not Barrows using good technique, and proper equipment.
Incidentally, why all the focus on the kneebars halfway along Lou Ferrino? To me the kneebar on the crux of trigger cut affects directors cut MUCH more, and there wasn't all this wailing and nashing of teeth when Doylo found that...
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I think that this issue is so deepley related to personal choices, feelings and motivations, that it's very difficult to try and get a consensus about whether pads are a better or worse style. I mean, some people I know go out with women so ugly that I won't let them walk their dog in my neighborhood If I could, let alone be seen with me; but if it works for them, fine.
These people could say the same about myself: ah, he always tries to get the blonde in high heels and never succeeds, while I fuck every night.
To me it's as simple as that. You like pads, you use pads. You don't like them, you don't use them.
Am I being too trivial?
Sorry if so.
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Sorry if :off:
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Interestingly, the Tor provides an interesting parallel to this discussion.
There's no doubt that the (many) kneebars on Ben's Roof and the kneebars on Mecca make those routes/problems substantially easier and different. There was much discussion about the grade of Mecca with the kneebars, and some light hearted ribbing, but I don't remember anyone seriously suggesting you shouldn't use the kneebars/pads on either of these. People still do them without, out of habit or for a training challenge. Basically, the locals accepted the change and moved on.
If you care about climbing in general, and not just bouldering (even pseudo-bouldering like the Cave) Mecca probably is more historically significant than Directors Cut, being THE first, and many peoples personal first, at the grade. Still, things change.
Interestingly, many people who previously aspired to do Mecca are now sniffing around the extension. If I lived in wales and fit in the kneebars, I'd be excited that Doylo and Barrows have opened up a new power endurance classic to me, rather than being upset that a testpiece that was out of my league has altered in style/difficulty...
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To me it's as simple as that. You like pads, you use pads. You don't like them, you don't use them.
Am I being too trivial?
Sorry if so.
Nibs - I like your style. To me it's as simple as that.
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But now the guide needs to be re-written and an anomaly in the form of a giant in a suit of rubber has come along and done a lot of problems in a manner that normal people wouldn't be able to repeat. Hence the reason I have put my two penneth in saying the grades should be kept the same, as they are for normal ascents and not reduced to nonsense cos a stretched fetishist has made a mockery of some stuff.
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Dense - I agree in principle, but I'm not sure that most normal people can't get the kneebar in on trigger cut.
Last time I was at the cave, most people there could get it to work. Either way, I don't see how grading the cave is causing such issues.
If most people can use the kneebar, grade it for using kneebars. If only freaks can, grade it for without. If you care a lot about these things, put 'Morpho' in the description, if you *really* care enough about these things put '7b+ for the tall', or somesuch. Simples, no?
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p.s
sorry for the mega post dump - trying to fit a day's worth of garbage into the space between staff meetings...
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To me the kneebar on the crux of trigger cut affects directors cut MUCH more,
This is definitely true. I'm fairly confident DC would be doable for me without the resting knees, though it would have taken longer (in fact I did wonder initially whether the rest was a red herring and more trouble then it's worth). Conversely, without the knee on TC but with the resting knees I wouldn't have a hope in hell.
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Incidentally, why all the focus on the kneebars halfway along Lou Ferrino? To me the kneebar on the crux of trigger cut affects directors cut MUCH more, and there wasn't all this wailing and nashing of teeth when Doylo found that...
probably because he did it with a tea towel on his leg. Think this is about the difference that the kneepads make to the kneebars. While we could all do the kneebar pre pad, doubt anyone would shakeout up there.
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With the tor, bens roof has been kept at 7c+ has it not, to quote Ben the other month upon seeing someone trying it with a kneepad "interesting what grade does it get like that, about 7b" how many people have took a reduced grade for Mecca while wearing pads? If they don't help why would ned ave chosen to put the kneepad in n posed giving 2thumbs up for the camera while laughing for about half an hr.
Pads are all very well but not everyone chooses to use them. This is not the same as choosing not to wear shoes or use chalk. Saying everybody can use them n make new grades up based on knee pads alone is a bit missing the point?
Exactly what nodders has just said.
I agree with myself in principal stu, that's all we can go off. Everything else can be treated as anomalous or a freakshow
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Being the cave it would be amusing if the footholds necessary for the various kneebars now fell off.
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It would then we would all have to go back to the original TC sequence pre kneebar and pre egyption.
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Surely using an egyptian is cheating? It's lowering the problem to your level by using technique!
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It's not buying a big rubber pad and strapping it to your leg tho is it? That's the point
Sorry jasper, the knee is located approx halfway down the leg, sorry these are the unused stumps below the waist
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That's true, I guess it's hard to get the egyptian in in hobnail boots.
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Good comeback. See earlier posts referring to most people on the planet wearing shoes while the only people that wear knee pads are plumbers, joiners n sparkys.
People can, and do, wear pads all they want the actual point is most people don't and things should be graded accordingly. If a new prob is put up n it's state of the art, like dan says that might be the way it goes a marginal kneebar here n there, n the only way to climb it maybe using said pads then just say that it was done using knee pads. It's not a big deal if people know what they're dealing with
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Tor locals might like to do ben's roof using the original line but no-one would expect anyone other than the local devotees to use the right hand exit nowadays)
Brilliant, how many ascents has Superman now then had and at what grade?
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It's not a big deal
(http://www.indonesiamatters.com/images-2/hit-nail.jpg)
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Knowing that Dense won't take your ascents seriously if you wear them should be enough to keep most folk away from kneepads...
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my bad, stupid post
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Brilliant let's get a few idiots (out of defference to slackers) and quote 5 words out of context, then point out a few more subsets that wear pads. Genius stay with the discussion guys, wouldn't want to miss your input
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a few idiots ... wear pads.
So do you support the wearing of pads or not? Or do you prefer tampons?
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is technique a substitute for power nowadays?
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Tor locals might like to do ben's roof using the original line but no-one would expect anyone other than the local devotees to use the right hand exit nowadays)
Brilliant, how many ascents has Superman now then had and at what grade?
What's your point? That eliminates exist? That visitors will come and climb that bit of rock in the logical manner? That the locals will get indignant about it?
Nice example actually - Nacho comes, climbs the obvious thing and then it turns out to be wrong. This is just one reason why - in my opinion - eliminates are generally more shit than things which aren't eliminate. Yup, you heard right, superman is more shit than superwoman. Take that crag x bitches. Superwoman is the real problem there and superman is a nice historical eliminate for strong/bored locals (and the odd foreigner who's very strong and bored or has a particular liking for UK history) to test themselves on.I already said we should rename Director's Slut and Greentart in a superman/superwoman style.
Does anyone fuss about the different exits to BR?
P.S. I have no idea where we're going any more, we're certainly not really on pads any more
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is technique a substitute for power nowadays?
No rubber is.
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Brilliant let's get a few idiots (out of defference to slackers)
Cheers :-*
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Eliminating equipment isn't quite the same as eliminating holds though is it?
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Tor locals might like to do ben's roof using the original line but no-one would expect anyone other than the local devotees to use the right hand exit nowadays)
Brilliant, how many ascents has Superman now then had and at what grade?
P.S. I have no idea where we're going any more, we're certainly not really on pads any more
They are all discussing how much they hate you under the thin veil of something about pads
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Can I just say what a joy it is to have Dense back, I would have lost interest in this thread ages ago otherwise.
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With the tor, bens roof has been kept at 7c+ has it not, to quote Ben the other month upon seeing someone trying it with a kneepad "interesting what grade does it get like that, about 7b" how many people have took a reduced grade for Mecca while wearing pads? If they don't help why would ned ave chosen to put the kneepad in n posed giving 2thumbs up for the camera while laughing for about half an hr.
This is an argument for regrading those climbs and others that are made sufficiently easier to require it. I think all pad proponents would agree with you on this principle.
I don't think anyone is actually saying that kneebars (with a decent pad) don't make things easier, sometimes to the point of lowering a grade. You seem to be the one saying that grades shouldn't change to reflect this.
Pads are all very well but not everyone chooses to use them. This is not the same as choosing not to wear shoes or use chalk.
Why is it?
I assume you mean because, up until the present, kneepads were not standard kit. This is EXACTLY the same as for all other previous innovations such as recent boot designs like downturned soles and boots with rubber on the top. Initially they are a rarity, over time they become everday.
Saying everybody can use them n make new grades up based on knee pads alone is a bit missing the point?
Missing which point?
As you pointed out, if grades don't reflect pad use, then people will flock to the shop to get themselves a pad and then queue up to repeat the soft touch. Mecca being a case in point.
Trying to segregate ascents into with/without pad and giving them separate grades is an understandable compromise, but will open up a whole can of worms with regard to what is/isn't a pad, and create potential for all sorts of covert cheating (pad worn under trousers for instance).
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I fuckin hate barrows n all he stands for, now quickly someone pass me my new pads
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It's not schrodingers pad Jon, it's still a bloody pad.
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With the tor, bens roof has been kept at 7c+ has it not, to quote Ben the other month upon seeing someone trying it with a kneepad "interesting what grade does it get like that, about 7b" how many people have took a reduced grade for Mecca while wearing pads? If they don't help why would ned ave chosen to put the kneepad in n posed giving 2thumbs up for the camera while laughing for about half an hr.
That was probably Threenine doing Bens Roof and he took 7B+ on 8a.nu but said it felt more like 7B
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RE: Mecca grade - I've never really tried it without a pad since I'd been given one of the Cava ones before I ever tried it, thus I have no idea how much of a different a pad makes for me on that. I gave it 8b+ 'cos it felt like 8b+ to me. I had been spending a lot of time in Europe before that though so who knows where my grade scale was (is) at.
Can I put stealth paint on my jeans like some people do on the top of shoes then go back for the 8B on directum's smut? Psyched. My scorecard needs more points.
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Eliminating equipment isn't quite the same as eliminating holds though is it?
Eliminating pads is just eliminating knee holds by another name.
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:off: BTW - I didn't comment on the Mecca thread because it was a train wreck.
What I would have said, so might as well say now is; having failled on the route with and without a kneepad and being quite handy with kneebars, I think it makes a huge difference, possibly enough to drop the grade, but I don't have enough experience at the grade to be fully sure. How can a half decent rest halfway up a PE route not make things a lot easier? Anyone who doesn't get a good rest off that knee, either has unusually short lower legs or is bad at resting on kneebars.
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Eliminating equipment isn't quite the same as eliminating holds though is it?
Eliminating pads is just eliminating knee holds by another name.
No it isn't, otherwise the kneebar wouldn't have exited until pads which clearly isn't the case. Barrows et al. have glossed over the bounds of acceptability question I raised a page or so ago but I'm beginning to think his opinion would be anything goes, fruit boots (what a term Pete!) here we come!
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This sounds really cheesy but here goes.
Bouldering has not needed, and does not need to have, a solid ethical definition as it is the form, diffculty and nature of the actual climbing that is the pursuit. This rightly runs in conjunction with the acceptance of a few unwritten rules, essentially the underpinning common-sense rules of all climbing ethics.
Ethics from more cluttered forms of climbing require boundaries and development control as the equipment plays such a major part in the overall pursuit.
Knee pads are a game changer for bouldering, and its the addition of "equipment" that has the direct effect of threatening to bring boundaries into a pastime that is by its very conception, is so defined otherwise.
Shoes, chalk and mats all have good and bad arguments but have been accepted for very good reasons.
I for one dont really give a monkeys about the Cave (just give it all sport grades and get back to work), or what others are doing around the world (oh, but he did it on this problem there, who gives?)
This is about Bouldering, in the UK.
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Eliminating equipment isn't quite the same as eliminating holds though is it?
Eliminating pads is just eliminating knee holds by another name.
No it isn't
Oh yes it is.
If a knee hold isn't useful without a pad then you are effectively eliminating it. Like if you force people to wear socks instead of rockshoes you would be effectively eliminating a lot of footholds.
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But rockattrocity might be easier in crampons doesnt men you should use them
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I thought Dave Graham used a huge knee pad when he did Kings of Leon in Swizzy, Chris Sharma said he tried it that way too (Dosage 4?).
Seems like that was about 135 years ago ... so I always assumed that knee pads are in :shrug:
Not got a knee pad myself, usually just ;D and bear it.
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:off: BTW - I didn't comment on the Mecca thread because it was a train wreck.
What I would have said, so might as well say now is; having failled on the route with and without a kneepad and being quite handy with kneebars, I think it makes a huge difference, possibly enough to drop the grade, but I don't have enough experience at the grade to be fully sure. How can a half decent rest halfway up a PE route not make things a lot easier? Anyone who doesn't get a good rest off that knee, either has unusually short lower legs or is bad at resting on kneebars.
That's what i said on the Mecca thread but felt a bit guilty afterwards. Bad timing but we all know that. It's true that the Trigger Cut kneebars are what makes Director's so much easier. The 3 hard moves are piss with the pad. The move to the shothole without is full on hardcore from the start of LF. It seems silly that there's only one grade between them really. However I think if Barrows hadn't of used that no hander i don't think there would have been quite as much furore. As Stu says Halfway, Broken Trigger and Daisy From Concrete have all been done with kneepads and no ones kicked up too much of a stink. Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents, it's the footage of the no hander that really rubbed salt in the wound IMO. I don't know what the cut off point for height is but Robins did get it to work and i think Dan V used it that day he came years ago (have Dan as average height in my head)?? I guess it just gets more bomber the bigger you get.
This thread has got me salivating over the thought of my route project - the best kneebar sequence ever! Shame it'll never be dry again... :'(
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I thought Dave Graham used a huge knee pad when he did Kings of Leon in Swizzy, Chris Sharma said he tried it that way too (Dosage 4?).
Seems like that was about 135 years ago ... so I always assumed that knee pads are in :shrug:
Not got a knee pad myself, usually just ;D and bear it.
Kings of Sonlerto 8b+?
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But rockattrocity might be easier in crampons doesnt men you should use them
Not a valid comparison. Crampon spikes are effectively new appendages. Pads, like rock shoes provide comfort and friction to existing appendages.
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Mecca - I suspect i could get a rest on there without a pad, just not as good. Didn't Smitton used to rest on it without a pad? Like I said, I've not tried so I don't really know, I just gave it 8b+ cos it felt harder for me than the 8b+, 8b/+ and 8b I'd done in France about a month earlier and at least a grade harder than Gran Techo (8b) which I did about the same time.
Paul - I have no idea where the bounds of acceptability are. But then you could surely ask exactly the same question about where the bounds of acceptability are with heels RE the hooks on anasazis and how you could modify those or take them further. Or what you're allowed to do to the top of your shoes to help with toe hooks.
Ethics from more cluttered forms of climbing require boundaries and development control as the equipment plays such a major part in the overall pursuit.
I don't see why bouldering is so different to sport climbing. Convince me..
threatening to bring boundaries into a pastime that is by its very conception, is so defined otherwise.
Sounds like pretentious crap to me
Shoes, chalk and mats all have good and bad arguments but have been accepted for very good reasons.
And what arguments are those that don't apply to knee pads?
People have rightly said that we draw arbitrary lines - accepting that and choosing to draw an arbitrary line of 'no pads' is a lot better an argument to me (even if I don't agree) than anything you've come up with in the above quotes, certainly when you try to claim there are good reasons for the arbitrary lines of shoes and chalk. I have yet to see these good reasons - hit me up.
This is about Bouldering, in the UK.
Maybe this is where it's all going wrong. For me, and I suspect for people like Stu and Bonjoy too though I obviously don't speak for them, this is about route climbing and bouldering everywhere. If I'm going to use pads I'm going to use them on routes in rifle, boulders in Bishop etc.
As Stu says Halfway, Broken Trigger and Daisy From Concrete have all been done with kneepads and no ones kicked up too much of a stink. Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents, it's the footage of the no hander that really rubbed salt in the wound IMO.
It doesn't surprise me, people love giving me shit :'(
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Knee pads are a game changer for bouldering
No they aren't, that's ridiculous. It affects about 0.0001% of problems.
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It doesn't surprise me, people love giving me shit :'(
That's cos you fuckin deserve it ;)
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I don't know any more I thought they were good. Then got convinced they were bad. Now I think they might be good again. Someone needs to tell me what to do.
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I don't know any more I thought they were good. Then got convinced they were bad. Now I think they might be good again. Someone needs to tell me what to do.
You were gonna take 8b for Directors with pads!! ;) ;D
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I don't know any more I thought they were good. Then got convinced they were bad. Now I think they might be good again. Someone needs to tell me what to do.
Don't worry Nodder, I woke up this morning convinced that they were cheating yet now I'm wearing a rubber catsuit.
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I don't know any more I thought they were good. Then got convinced they were bad. Now I think they might be good again. Someone needs to tell me what to do.
Don't worry Nodder, I woke up this morning convinced that they were cheating yet now I'm wearing a rubber catsuit.
You off down the Spearmint Rhino again??
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You were gonna take 8b for Directors with pads!!
I am not sure about that? did i say that? Good job I never got round to it.
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What's directors with pads? Is it a new eliminate?
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Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents
That's unfair Doylo - you know this subject has been discussed extensively (away from the internet) over the last year or so. I've had numerous discussions/debates, with Nodder, Pete (and you) about it. At first I wasn't sure where it was heading and how far it would influence things in the Cave. I listened to both sides and felt increasingly uneasy about it. Yes, that film of Alex was the clincher for me, but that doesn't undermine my current viewpoint at all.
Oh, and Pete told me that the TC knee bar doesn't work for him.
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Yeh I bet he told u that while he had both hands off n was riding it like a fuckin horse
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Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents
That's unfair Doylo - you know this subject has been discussed extensively (away from the internet) over the last year or so. I've had numerous discussions/debates, with Nodder, Pete (and you) about it. At first I wasn't sure where it was heading and how far it would influence things in the Cave. I listened to both sides and felt increasingly uneasy about it. Yes, that film of Alex was the clincher for me, but that doesn't undermine my current viewpoint at all.
Oh, and Pete told me that the TC knee bar doesn't work for him.
I don't remember you being unduly negative though. I saw Pete do Trigger Cut with the pad and he reached to the shothole pretty damn slowly. It was on the cusp for him though and he's got TC pretty wired anyway
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jesus, give me the time back that I will never see again that i have spent reading the last 2 pages..................
just as well Im at work ..........
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Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents
That's unfair Doylo - you know this subject has been discussed extensively (away from the internet) over the last year or so. I've had numerous discussions/debates, with Nodder, Pete (and you) about it. At first I wasn't sure where it was heading and how far it would influence things in the Cave. I listened to both sides and felt increasingly uneasy about it. Yes, that film of Alex was the clincher for me, but that doesn't undermine my current viewpoint at all.
Oh, and Pete told me that the TC knee bar doesn't work for him.
I don't remember you being unduly negative though. I saw Pete do Trigger Cut with the pad and he reached to the shothole pretty damn slowly. It was on the cusp for him though and he's got TC pretty wired anyway
I wasn't ranting in people's faces about it (like I am now) but I did say a long time ago that the obvious solution was to use split grades for the Cave. All that has happened since then is that my opinion has hardened.
I have actually got a pic of Pete wearing a 5.10 knee pad from that day - I can't remember what happened when he tried it on the TC knee bar, maybe your memory is better than mine.
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He did Trigger Cut ok with the pad but took it off for Broken Trigger.
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I wasn't ranting in people's faces about it (like I am now) but I did say a long time ago that the obvious solution was to use split grades for the Cave. All that has happened since then is that my opinion has hardened.
So now you just need a list of grades for each method
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I wasn't ranting in people's faces about it (like I am now) but I did say a long time ago that the obvious solution was to use split grades for the Cave. All that has happened since then is that my opinion has hardened.
Hardened to what? Just using split grades in the cave would be fine if that's what you want to do. Especially as this is a bit different to simple eliminates and more akin to making the cave problems really morpho.
It's all this talk about knee bars being 'bad style' (i.e dissaproved of), and saying folk are 'kidding themselves' when they've kidded nobody and have video evidence and saying the cave has been 'ruined' that seems weird to us pro-padders.
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Doylo
Spot on, Kings of Sontero. Didn't realise it had got that grade, in the video it looked easy with the knee pad ;)
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Doylo
Spot on, Kings of Sontero. Didn't realise it had got that grade, in the video it looked easy with the knee pad ;)
DG for ya!
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"To me it's as simple as that. You like pads, you use pads. You don't like them, you don't use them. Am I being too trivial?" - Nibile
If you're not climbing cutting edge stuff and don't care about climbing news, history etc then no climbing ethics matter much as long as you're not damaging anything. But top end climbing is a sport / game and it has rules whether we like it or not. If kneepads are "valid" then Ondra made the second ascent of Chilam Balam. If not, he didn't. So yeah, this stuff matters (to the same extent that the rules of any sport / game matter.)
"This is about Bouldering, in the UK." - Jack.G
The basic rules as to what constitutes free climbing need to be the same everywhere and on both routes and boulders. You can try and have different rules to everyone else if you like, but it will be a farce - everyone outside the UK will just say you're climbing eliminates.
"certainly if someone fashioned a rubber hook on a kneepad I doubt people would be so keen to embrace change" - Paul B
To me, this is the substance of this debate. There clearly is going to have to be a line drawn at some point as to what additional paraphernalia is acceptable (and Paul's example is way better than the one I gave before.) Quite where this line is drawn is probably going to be decided for the most part by those at the cutting edge - Ondra etc - though no doubt, this thread is only a preview of the arguments to come (imagine this thread on 8a.nu...) At a guess, any kind of hook will be way over the line and ridges will be a bit of a grey area. But arguing about knee pads which in various forms have been widely used outside the UK for decades does kind of seem like pissing in the wind. If it was decided they weren't "valid", you'd have to rewrite a whole stack of climbing history. It wouldn't bother me if that's what everyone agreed to, but it just isn't going to happen.
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With the tor, bens roof has been kept at 7c+ has it not...
We like to take our time over grade changes in the peak - it allows as many people to pad their CVs with soft touches as possible. I don't expect it to stay there, and nor does anyone else I know.
...how many people have took a reduced grade for Mecca while wearing pads? If they don't help why would ned ave chosen to put the kneepad in n posed giving 2thumbs up for the camera while laughing for about half an hr.
Probably as many as think it's a reduced grade now. Obviously the kneebars help, but do they make it a grade easier? I dunno, I've not done it with pads. Mawson was all for giving it 8b, but then spent the whole day failing to get to the kneebar and he doesn't do that on a lot of 8bs...
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What governing body will I be reported to for not following the "rules"?
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The "governing body" is effectively public opinion and media coverage of valid ascents. If you think climbing doesn't have rules, try top roping Echo Wall with 10 rest points - then report it as the second ascent and see what happens.
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I wasn't ranting in people's faces about it (like I am now) but I did say a long time ago that the obvious solution was to use split grades for the Cave. All that has happened since then is that my opinion has hardened.
Hardened to what? Just using split grades in the cave would be fine if that's what you want to do. Especially as this is a bit different to simple eliminates and more akin to making the cave problems really morpho.
It's all this talk about knee bars being 'bad style' (i.e dissaproved of), and saying folk are 'kidding themselves' when they've kidded nobody and have video evidence and saying the cave has been 'ruined' that seems weird to us pro-padders.
I'm resisting the temptation to argue with you further (especially as you didn't have the good grace to accept that Alex bringing up WOL was an own goal - it still is an own goal that seriously undermines the credibility of your stance in this debate, by the way.)...
Instead, let's focus on the positive:
At least we can agree that split grades for the cave are a solution that will allow both sides to be (relatively speaking) happy. I've already said that I would not drag my own opinions into how the info is presented in the guide.
I have to wear two hats here - one is just me and how I feel about the way climbing has changed in the Cave, the other is me as a guide editor trying to appease both sides of what has become a rather entrenched argument.
If foreign visitors think the split grade is laughable - so what, I'm not going to lose much sleep over that. They can take the lower pad grade, and those who wish to go bareback can take the higher sans pad grade. Sure, there will be anomalies, but there always has been, even with just one 'catch all' grade.
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Wow. 14 pages (on my PC) of going round and round in circles.
Is this UKB's tipping point into UKC style doom...? :(
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Or another solution to the problem is just to forget this ludicrous notion of "taking" a grade. You don't take a grade, you climb a problem. We don't grade ascents, we grade problems for the easiest method.
Hence if I go out and climb a 7b in terrible conditions, I don't "take" a 7c, what I did was a 7b in bad nick. Similarly if go and solo a geared E1 I don't "take" an E3", I just soloed an E1.
Kneepars aren't going to disappear so just fucking deal with it. If you do a problem graded at 7c assuming a kneepad, but you don't have one okr don't want to use one, then suck it in, you've just done a 7c, you're not "taking" an 8a, just enjoy your climbing, nobody is handing medals out. Tough shit if you found it harder. Similary if you find a kneebar on and 8a and it feels 7b+ then good on you, you know how hard it was for you.
The final thing I'll say is lets not overemphasise how much effect these kneebars have. Barrows' one in the cave looks a ballache to get into and I'd be shitting myself taking both hands off there. Have we forgot about that lass who broke her back when a pullup bar broke? Is a kneebars that take 4 moves to climb into and no free lunch. Similarly the kneebar on bens roof, yeah you can take both hands off but whats the fucking point, its about 4 moves into the problem, not even I am pumped by that point.
Split grades in the cave? Would look even more ridiculous than giving combined V/font grades. Lets not turn our bouldering into a laughing stock.
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I'm resisting the temptation to argue with you further (especially as you didn't have the good grace to accept that Alex bringing up WOL was an own goal - it still is an own goal that seriously undermines the credibility of your stance in this debate, by the way.)...
I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to understand if you think the use of pads is just an administrative headache for guideboook writers or if you really believe that people "shouldn't" climb with pads.
As for not accepting that WOL undermines the credibility of my stance I simply don't see that it does. All it proves is that other people are having the same debate. I've never claimed that no-one believes pads are an issue, so how does this affect the credibility of my argument? I'm genuinely asking, BTW, not just being argumentative.
My point is that using kneepads is as fine as any other piece of kit, that most of the world sees things this way and that in time it'll be the norm, so you might as well accept it. I've never argued that doing so is pain free, or universally accepted.
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Or another solution to the problem is just to forget this ludicrous notion of "taking" a grade. You don't take a grade, you climb a problem. We don't grade ascents, we grade problems for the easiest method.
+ 1 million.
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Hence if I go out and climb a 7b in terrible conditions, I don't "take" a 7c, what I did was a 7b in bad nick. Similarly if go and solo a geared E1 I don't "take" an E3", I just soloed an E1.
Kneepars aren't going to disappear so just fucking deal with it. If you do a problem graded at 7c assuming a kneepad, but you don't have one okr don't want to use one, then suck it in, you've just done a 7c, you're not "taking" an 8a, just enjoy your climbing, nobody is handing medals out. Tough shit if you found it harder. Similary if you find a kneebar on and 8a and it feels 7b+ then good on you, you know how hard it was for you.
None of this will work I tried variations of all these arguments before when I was originally on your side. Your convincing me though.
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Worth posting this to check out the kneebars being discussed on WoL; they aren't exactly marginal smears!
Wheel of Life non-edit on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/27222226)
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Next debate all link ups in the cave should be graded as routes :worms:
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I have a pad, it stays in my climbing bag and I try and use it when ever I see a potential opportunity. The amount of times it makes any kind of significant difference (like nige and dan said) is hardly ever. There are going to be areas like Hueco, Rifle, The Cave etc where there are all sorts of large features that are impossible to use as handholds but make potentially great knee bars. Lets face it 99% of the rock climbing on this planet is not like this and to infer that pads are going to be a game changer in climbing based on what somebody did in The Cave is unrealistic.
I managed a long term project this year that revolves around a (crucial for most) knee bar. I had dismissed doing it for a time because my leg was too short for the knee bar. I eventually did it with a pad with a folded up wash flannel underneath it gaffer taped to my leg to make it long enough. If i hadn't been able to do this I would have never climbed the problem, as it would have been much harder, so I agree with the idea of splitgrading for morpho kneebars. I would however say this for any really morphologically specific move or sequence where it is going to drastically effect the grade (these again are pretty rare) and this has nothing to do with the use of pads or not.
Pantontino, I'm not sure this has anything to do with people secretly harbouring negativity towards The Cave and Welsh climbers in general.
Taking 3 or 4 sections of climbing and link them together in 10 different ways is not as impressive as climbing 10 completely independent problems (of the same grade) thats just obvious, and I'm sure many peoples opinions reflect this.
The cave has some really unique and interesting climbing along with some cool and finger friendly holds. It also is dirty, covered in graffiti, has artificial holds and sometimes arbitrary starts and/or finishes, obviously some people are also gonna be dismisive of this.
Good debate over a stupid topic, love the attack poodle stuff.
Can we have a knee pad emoticon :please:
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How can someone decide that kneepads are not allowed? Who has the right to do so and hope to be obeyed?
I don't like them but I'd never argue about the validity of a padded ascent of a route or problem. I think that even for cutting edge climbers and media whores, the simplest and only rule is to honestly say how you climbed the route or problem, then everyone will draw their conclusions. Then, if someone cheats on the grades that's an entirely different thing.
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Dave what are u talking about? Have we forgot the girl who fell off a pull up bar? What? Wtf? Have we forgot the guy who cut off his arm in a crack? What do u mean lee? Well nothing.
As nibs said
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so the kneepads thing is more than just a fashion issue for some people?
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so the kneepads thing is more than just a fashion issue for some people?
I'm waiting until they are available in glitter effect pink - to go with the rest of my climbing outfit. I was going to get blue, but Stallioni beat be to it. The cad.
Anyway, Lagers, I do hope you cleaned all the muck off your knee pads when you use them on slabs - we wouldnt want the rock to get polished would we!
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Oh yes it is.
If a knee hold isn't useful without a pad then you are effectively eliminating it. Like if you force people to wear socks instead of rockshoes you would be effectively eliminating a lot of footholds.
This is VERY different to what you suggested in your earlier post. Yes, if pads were considered a bridge too far then effectively those knee holds wouldn't be useful in the same way as crimps/slopers/cracks where we can't gain useful purchase are 'eliminated' in a natural manner. What's your point here?
Nobody is 'eliminating' knees, you were born with those. Its the use of additional technology that is questionable (debatable?) and as I pointed out, a big grey area for acceptability going forward. We've already established that using EVERY available piece of tech isn't the future, Petejh pointed this out pages ago.
Would you be happy to find Steve Mac bat-hanging from two skyhooks taped to his anasazis at Malham one day? This is obviously a flippant and extreme (ly stupid) example but the point is some things are made easier by using new technology and not all of it would be deemed acceptable.
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Or another solution to the problem is just to forget this ludicrous notion of "taking" a grade. You don't take a grade, you climb a problem. We don't grade ascents, we grade problems for the easiest method.
+ 1 million.
+ another couple of.million.
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Or another solution to the problem is just to forget this ludicrous notion of "taking" a grade. You don't take a grade, you climb a problem. We don't grade ascents, we grade problems for the easiest method.
That's not the full story though is it. We grade them (problems, sport routes, trad routes, ice climbs, mountains) for the easiest method within loose unwritten 'rules' of what's acceptable and what's not. To coin a popular phrase from this thread - I wish people could just accept this is the way it's always been and move on (in this case 'move on' to a lengthy period of experimentation with both styles to see what seems to work best for 3D style cave bouldering, except we're only talking about one venue in the UK and one in Aus).
I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to understand if you think the use of pads is just an administrative headache for guideboook writers or if you really believe that people "shouldn't" climb with pads.
..
My point is that using kneepads is as fine as any other piece of kit, that most of the world sees things this way and that in time it'll be the norm, so you might as well accept it. I've never argued that doing so is pain free, or universally accepted.
Nobody on this thread has ever said that people 'shouldn't' climb with pads. That's crystal clear. As Nibble said - how could you. I certainly don't think people 'shouldn't' use them. Seems to be a case of people getting offended when other people (more than you originally thought perhaps?) don't agree with Alex's assertions that pads in the cave are 'rad and cool'. I think bareback/padless on Director's Cut and all the other probs is a way radder and cooler thing to aspire to, no offense. That seems to offend you and make you think people are out to stop other people doing what they want, I can't understand why (unless you're the UK importer of stealth pads. btw not very 'stealthy' are they). It doesn't matter much what I think, the majority will either take to pads on those 3D cave probs or they won't, we'll know in a few years.
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No we don't, this is not some nonsense idyllic world. Problems are graded comparable to other problems, they are a guide as to how well person x is climbing. The number combined with the letter after it is just a guide nothing more, but it is a guide. I have said for a long long time, before some of u were born, how good it would be to not have grades and give every problem a name, for example the terrace. Then if someone had said they climbed the terrace I would be able to rationalise the ascent in my own mind, which is what I do anyway.
Dave said if u climb a problem graded 7c with a knee pad u just suck it in if u haven't got one, this is in no way the same as turning up and doing a 7c this is a grade for an ascent based on wearing a knee pad. My beef here wil be that ascents are graded for knee pads, that is not how most people climb. The more realistic alternative would be what has always been in place, and knee pads mentioned when used. They are not an everyday piece of equipment as some people would have me believing.
As an aside aren't the new putters getting banned in golf? U know the ones I mean? The ones that make putting easier due to different technologies being used, extending the size of the shaft, weighting it on the chin and so on, but wait its still a club.
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My beef here wil be that ascents are graded for knee pads, that is not how most people climb. ...They are not an everyday piece of equipment as some people would have me believing.
That's currently true for UK boulderers. Might not be in the near future though - as Stu said, in the UK sport scene they're becoming standard, and 90% of American sport climbers I've met have had them.
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I have no problem with people using long-handled putters at parisellas or indeed any crag.
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Nobody on this thread has ever said that people 'shouldn't' climb with pads. That's crystal clear. As Nibble said - how could you. I certainly don't think people 'shouldn't' use them. Seems to be a case of people getting offended when other people (more than you originally thought perhaps?) don't agree with Alex's assertions that pads in the cave are 'rad and cool'. I think bareback/padless on Director's Cut and all the other probs is a way radder and cooler thing to aspire to, no offense. That seems to offend you and make you think people are out to stop other people doing what they want, I can't understand why (unless you're the UK importer of stealth pads. btw not very 'stealthy' are they). It doesn't matter much what I think, the majority will either take to pads on those 3D cave probs or they won't, we'll know in a few years.
Whilst I don't think anyone has tried to actually ban pads it sends out a pretty strong signal that you don't approve of their use if they are described as "wank" and claiming an ascent with pads is described as "kidding yourself". That position can only be described as you thinking that people shouldn't use pads.
I've no problem with folk thinking that a padless ascent of a problem is cooler than one with pads, and I haven't been offended by anything so far. If at times i've argued stridently against you and Si its because i can't see any logic in your position, but also I feel a bit sorry for Barrows (I never thought I'd say that). The guy does a hard problem (for him) that he really enjoyed and is probably quite proud of, and all he gets from the welsh mafia is a slagging for using one more knee bar than the two you lot are currently using.
I do appreciate the points you and Simon are making. Yes we make arbitrary rules in climbing and one of these could be that pads are not fair game. But most of the rules we make in climbing have some sort of logic behind them; usually the argument is that a practice or piece of equipment makes the game too easy (like with heel spurs, or bolts). I don't see this applying to pads since they can only be used on a small number of problems. Really, they are exactly like rock shoes, with the notable exception that they are a relative novelty. I wish we had the Internet when Fires were released...
Having said that, kneepads are probably only a novelty in wales; in sport climbing and in bouldering in other countries pad use is widespread. I know I won't convince you that pads are cool (although - seriously - try them), but I'd be very surprised if this argument hasn't become redundant in 5 years and almost everyone has a pad. I have a mental image of Simon wandering around the Orme telling off pad users like the old legends in Bleu who scowl at chalk bags...
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Having said that, kneepads are probably only a novelty in wales; in sport climbing and in bouldering in other countries pad use is widespread. I know I won't convince you that pads are cool (although - seriously - try them), but I'd be very surprised if this argument hasn't become redundant in 5 years and almost everyone has a pad. I have a mental image of Simon wandering around the Orme telling off pad users like the old legends in Bleu who scowl at chalk bags...
Isn't the point that those old bleausards are legendary for refusing to compromise what they suppose to be the purest style? That's what's going on here, too. Essentially some people are arguing that kneepads compromise the purity of ascent - and they are undoubtably less intrinsic to climbing style as shoes, for instance.
What's really interesting is that this debate is only happening because climbing is changing quite quickly from a lifestyle or pursuit into something that more closely resembles a modern sport (with all the bollocks that entails). A 'pursuit' is likely governed by ethics established by precedent or popular agreement. A sport is quite different; its rules are usually codified, more specific, and less likely to change.
I don't think these sort of arguments are as likely to settle over time as you suggest. I think it's more likely that at some point a standard will be established in a more formal manner. It will of course be entirely arbitrary.
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Oh yes it is.
If a knee hold isn't useful without a pad then you are effectively eliminating it. Like if you force people to wear socks instead of rockshoes you would be effectively eliminating a lot of footholds.
This is VERY different to what you suggested in your earlier post. Yes, if pads were considered a bridge too far then effectively those knee holds wouldn't be useful in the same way as crimps/slopers/cracks where we can't gain useful purchase are 'eliminated' in a natural manner. What's your point here?
My point? Nodder said eliminating pads and eliminating holds where not comparable. I disputed him, based on the fact that eliminating pads is a proxy way of eliminating a lot (not all obviously) of knee holds.
To save me re-reading all my old posts can you tell me what I said that you think was VERY different previously? I don't recall saying anything that contradicts the above.
Nobody is 'eliminating' knees, you were born with those. Its the use of additional technology that is questionable (debatable?) and as I pointed out, a big grey area for acceptability going forward. We've already established that using EVERY available piece of tech isn't the future, Petejh pointed this out pages ago.
Would you be happy to find Steve Mac bat-hanging from two skyhooks taped to his anasazis at Malham one day? This is obviously a flippant and extreme (ly stupid) example but the point is some things are made easier by using new technology and not all of it would be deemed acceptable.
I don't think this is actually a difficult line to draw. I've adressed this already and nobody has challenged my reasoning. What is wrong with drawing the line at the obvious place?? To state it again, all bodily appendages are legit, and so is equipment which improves the comfort and friction when climbing with said appendage. Adding new appendages, small or large, is not legit. It's not complex and it covers future advances as well as current tech.
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Mmmmmm appendages.
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uh oh!
http://www.google.com/patents/US3965486 (http://www.google.com/patents/US3965486)
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Split grades in the cave? Would look even more ridiculous than giving combined V/font grades. Lets not turn our bouldering into a laughing stock.
Talk about an over reaction, and for what?
A tiny bit of extra grade info on a page, and only for certain problems (obviously not all) in one specialist/unique venue.
It's no big deal and it keeps the peace.
If I do it your way I save 1% space on a page (a pointless exercise) and piss off a whole section of the climbing community.
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uh oh!
http://www.google.com/patents/US3965486 (http://www.google.com/patents/US3965486)
Could work well with my 2020 magnetic rubber gimp suit (with augmented reality sequence provider).
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Pneumatic kneepads. Thats amazing.
I wasn't giving him shit I come from Wales.
Is the blow up knee pad a step too far? After all its only the same as the rolled up tea towel stuck to the knee (or is this changing your appendage?). At this point I could see the point of a voluntary ban. (If that was in anyway doable)
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Bonjoy:
So, is 'significantly' changing the size and shape of an appendage acceptable?
That metaphorical line you drew (in the sand) is starting to blur already.
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nodder - You can volunteer for it, I'm not.
Pantontino - You make it sound more complex than it is in practice. It would not be hard differentiate if presented with new innovations, based on the comfort/friction principle. How many rock shoes have we had to ban recently for overreaching the bounds? Some folk got wound up by Madrock heels, but it was rather accedemic, as in practice (as would be the case with robotic knee flanges etc) they are shit and don't make climbing easier.
If you can give me an example of something (outside of boot tech) which might actually help you climb and is not obviously one side or other of my notional line, then I'll take your point seriously.
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Stu, it is okay for people to use pads in the cave, of course it is, but I reserve the right to express my own personal feelings about such a thing.
If I used the guide as a platform for my own viewpoint, especially when it is clear that there are plenty of people out there who disagree with me, that would be wrong.
Coming on here and talking about it, even in a rather 'colourful' fashion, is okay, I reckon. Judging by this thread, Alex gives as good as he gets, I'd be surprised if he cares much what I or anybody else thinks.
If he is upset by what has been said then I'm sorry about that.
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nodder - You can volunteer for it, I'm not.
Pantontino - You make it sound more complex than it is in practice. It would not be hard differentiate if presented with new innovations, based on the comfort/friction principle. How many rock shoes have we had to ban recently for overreaching the bounds? Some folk got wound up by Madrock heels, but it was rather accedemic, as in practice (as would be the case with robotic knee flanges etc) they are shit and don't make climbing easier.
If you can give me an example of something (outside of boot tech) which might actually help you climb and is not obviously one side or other of my notional line, then I'll take your point seriously.
I was thinking back to what Ferret said about adjustable knee pads - i.e. you can change them so they effectively give you a bigger leg. Now you could tweak that slightly so that you could make specific shapes that would fit specific marginal knee bar positions. Thus making it possible to get a hands off rest in places where it was not possible before (sound familiar?).
Just because this didn't happen with rock shoes doesn't mean it won't happen with pads.
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Out of intrest anybody used them on lip traverses and prows some of these must be easier with a pair on your thighs just with the rubber facing in rather than out. Then you would need them all the time not just in specialist cases.
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Pantontino - A short climber padding out a kneepad is much like a short climber stacking a pad to reach the first holds. I accept it represents a grey area because it violates my 'rule' but is arguably justifiable.
Likewise with minor tweaks to kneepads. So yes I accept that there is a grey area.
However it is a vanishingly slim grey area at the boundary (name me a boundary that doesn't have tiny scope for anomalies), affecting very few climbs indeed. Anything beyond the slightest of measures would be much more obviously over the line. I don't think the grey area is so large or unmanagable as to render the general principle unworkable. But by all means suggest another line in the sand if you think there is a simpler one which is less problematic.
Nodder - I try them on everything, including campus boards
PS - As an aside, I'm sure I read somewhere that Steve Mac did stick something on the toes of his boots to help with bathangs on one of the Malham routes. :worms:
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Out of intrest anybody used them on lip traverses and prows some of these must be easier with a pair on your thighs just with the rubber facing in rather than out. Then you would need them all the time not just in specialist cases.
I'd have liked one for my left calf on Old Spice at Carrcok fell.. I still have scabs on my calf from two weeks ago!
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Are rubber shinpads allowed?
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Are rubber shinpads allowed?
Cheating bastard. Thats just a step too far ;)
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mens-Black-Latex-Jeans-Pleat-Front-Rubber-Gummi-Trousers-Small-/321031942151?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4abefeb007 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mens-Black-Latex-Jeans-Pleat-Front-Rubber-Gummi-Trousers-Small-/321031942151?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4abefeb007)
Sorted
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Didn't realise Crouchie was getting rid of his Sunday bests.
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Didn't realise Crouchie was getting rid of his Sunday bests.
I thought these might help... also with keeping ones end up (flag waving etc..) ;)
(http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/m/mH9TisJGrLmxPU2rKG5mPqQ/140.jpg)
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I know everyone feels like they have a lot invested in this argument, but in my mind the only sensible place for it to continue would be in 'The Log Pile'.
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Dont hide behind punterings, tell us what you really think.
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To summarise my feelings and to avoid character assassination of you yourself, (im sure your lovely when not talking about kneebars). I just feel that this post is synonymous to a post entitled 'rock shoe/ standing on your feet trickery' I dont think that a post on that subject would last anywhere near as long. Its the 21st century, someone has developed a handy tool to help protect our knees and improve their function. Is it really such a big deal?
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Consensus, if you have a genuine interest and opinion post it up.
Character assaination ? whatever.
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did I not make my opinion clear enough? It's a shit topic and although I'm not going to stop ridiculing Alex for his use of kneebars as is my prerogative, anyone who can't except the use of kneebars is the climbing equivalent of the luddites.
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Wow...14 pages later and all that. Interesting comments from both sides.
Re: use of kneepads on lips etc., they are useful for this sort of thing. I think at the moment some people underestimate just how useful they can be. I used mine on quite a few problems in font in this sort of way. Back home, on this particular problem i can get a "knee hook" instead of a toe at 0.35, then use a heel hook to knee type scum on the top out:
https://vimeo.com/21518076
For what it's worth, I think these things will be commonplace here in the UK very shortly, and that will be that, for most folk.
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People don't underestimate how useful they can be! That's the whole point, they're bloody amazing
People keep interchanging the words knee pads and kneebars in this thread. They are not the same
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To clarify, some folk have suggested that kneepads are only really helpful on a small minority of problems, or at specific venues. I'm suggesting that they are more versatile than this, because they can be used in many other situations, particularly on slopey lips and top outs.
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For what it's worth, I think these things will be commonplace here in the UK very shortly, and that will be that, for most folk.
We need to get cracking with the knacking... Sack off the new UKB T-Shirt, what we all really need is a UKB Kneepad....
Or at least a UKB T-shirt thats printed upside down so it can be read by the punters whilst the wads rest easy and prepare for the next crush phase 8)
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For what it's worth, I think these things will be commonplace here in the UK very shortly, and that will be that, for most folk.
We need to get cracking with the knacking... Sack off the new UKB T-Shirt, what we all really need is a UKB Kneepad....
Or at least a UKB T-shirt thats printed upside down so it can be read by the punters whilst the wads rest easy and prepare for the next crush phase 8)
I wanna take you to a knee bar, I wanna take you to a knee bar! Etc etc
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For what it's worth, I think these things will be commonplace here in the UK very shortly, and that will be that, for most folk.
We need to get cracking with the knacking... Sack off the new UKB T-Shirt, what we all really need is a UKB Kneepad....
Or at least a UKB T-shirt thats printed upside down so it can be read by the punters whilst the wads rest easy and prepare for the next crush phase 8)
I wanna take you to a knee bar, I wanna take you to a knee bar! Etc etc
Knee bad! as they say north of the border...
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We need to get cracking with the knacking... Sack off the new UKB T-Shirt, what we all really need is a UKB Kneepad....
I think Stu L is getting his mum to ramp up production as we speak.
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I don't know any more I thought they were good. Then got convinced they were bad. Now I think they might be good again. Someone needs to tell me what to do.
Indecisive Dave
The Fast Show - Indecisive Dave (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRPcssq-7Us#)
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I wanna take you to a knee bar, I wanna take you to a knee bar!
I've got something to put in you
kneebar kneebar
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I don't know any more I thought they were good. Then got convinced they were bad. Now I think they might be good again. Someone needs to tell me what to do.
Indecisive Dave
The Fast Show - Indecisive Dave (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRPcssq-7Us#)
;D Somebody mentioned this sketch at the wall last night - Dave is now fully anti pads/rubber gimp suits (just in case anybody was wondering)
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Dave is now fully anti pads/rubber gimp suits for climbing use but not for recreational use.
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How many turns of the thumb screw did that take?
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How many turns of the thumb screw did that take?
Are thumb screws allowed too?!
Wish I'd known that. All I did was present a clear and level headed case against the 'rubberisation of the Cave'. Nodder had already decided of his own volition. "I don't do shades of grey, just black or white. That's how I roll." [might be a slight paraphrase]
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He rolls like a Panda then
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He rolls like a Panda then
Rolling Panda on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/6524558)
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;D Somebody mentioned this sketch at the wall last night - Dave is now fully anti pads/rubber gimp suits (just in case anybody was wondering)
Does this mean he's handed his Broken Trigger FA over to Pete? :jab:
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http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/two-more-v15s-nalle-hukkataival (http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/two-more-v15s-nalle-hukkataival)
I fell 6 times from the last move and when I climbed it, I used my forehead while manteling! Does that give me less or more style points!?"
Rubber headband anyone?
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http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/two-more-v15s-nalle-hukkataival (http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/two-more-v15s-nalle-hukkataival)
I fell 6 times from the last move and when I climbed it, I used my forehead while manteling! Does that give me less or more style points!?"
Rubber headband anyone?
Swimming cap?
I can actually think of one problem that might be a fair bit easier with double rubber knees and that would be vcrimps at bowden. don't think a hands off would be possible (footholds would almost certainly explode), but it ought to make matching the V easier. i couldn't do this problem till soemone (you know who you are) showed me the double knee scums, so i'm assuming that if the rubber improves the purchase, then it would/could/should be downgraded :shrug:
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He rolls like a Panda then
eats, shoots and leaves ?
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Man this thread is absolute gold. Please don't let it die. Its sooo good to read while I wait for simulations to run on CONDOR.
PS Barrows is a clown. An unfunny clown.
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He rolls like a Panda then
eats, shoots and leaves ?
Nah, that's how we 'mericans roll.
at least on 8a :)
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Kneebars, are amusingly mentioned in this.
http://eveningsends.com/2012/12/the-problem-with-personal-grades/ (http://eveningsends.com/2012/12/the-problem-with-personal-grades/)
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Kneebars, are amusingly mentioned in this.
http://eveningsends.com/2012/12/the-problem-with-personal-grades/ (http://eveningsends.com/2012/12/the-problem-with-personal-grades/)
"The grade of any new route will drift like a floating interest rate until some local climber—usually the biggest twat at the crag—deems himself important enough to be the one to publish a guidebook. The Guidebook Author becomes, for all intents and purposes, the self-proclaimed God of Grades and he wields his absolute power by getting the final say in what grades appear in his book."
:lol:
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Good read that one. One for the blogroll?
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"The grade of any new route will drift like a floating interest rate until some local climber—usually the biggest twat at the crag—deems himself important enough to be the one to publish a guidebook. The Guidebook Author becomes, for all intents and purposes, the self-proclaimed God of Grades and he wields his absolute power by getting the final say in what grades appear in his book."
No names mentioned?
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"The grade of any new route will drift like a floating interest rate until some local climber—usually the biggest twat at the crag—deems himself important enough to be the one to publish a guidebook. The Guidebook Author becomes, for all intents and purposes, the self-proclaimed God of Grades and he wields his absolute power by getting the final say in what grades appear in his book."
No names mentioned?
I think Shark was saying that I'm the biggest twat at the crag, or maybe he meant Pete Harrison? Pete is pretty bad, but I think on balance I'm slightly more of a twat than him.
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I think Shark was saying that I'm the biggest twat at the crag, or maybe he meant Pete Harrison? Pete is pretty bad, but I think on balance I'm slightly more of a twat than him.
I'll take your word for it
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"The grade of any new route will drift like a floating interest rate until some local climber—usually the biggest twat at the crag—deems himself important enough to be the one to publish a guidebook. The Guidebook Author becomes, for all intents and purposes, the self-proclaimed God of Grades and he wields his absolute power by getting the final say in what grades appear in his book."
No names mentioned?
I think Shark was saying that I'm the biggest twat at the crag, or maybe he meant Pete Harrison? Pete is pretty bad, but I think on balance I'm slightly more of a twat than him.
It's fucking close ;)
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"The grade of any new route will drift like a floating interest rate until some local climber—usually the biggest twat at the crag—deems himself important enough to be the one to publish a guidebook. The Guidebook Author becomes, for all intents and purposes, the self-proclaimed God of Grades and he wields his absolute power by getting the final say in what grades appear in his book."
No names mentioned?
I think Shark was saying that I'm the biggest twat at the crag, or maybe he meant Pete Harrison? Pete is pretty bad, but I think on balance I'm slightly more of a twat than him.
It's fucking close ;)
Especially if you consider all the other collossal twats who hang out in the Cave. Some of them deserve special awards for services to twatdom.
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There's some right massive gashes in there
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TBH I was thinking he was referencing Ru, but I guess if you are a self proclaimed God you think everyone is talking abou you :)
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Stop talking about me everyone.
Si you're by far a much bigger twat than me. But if Doylo ever stops looking at granny pr0n and writes a guidebook he'll easily out-twat the both of us.
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I think you mean Grandad pr0n
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hate to resurrect this but whats the status of using kneepads in competitions, are they allowed? just out of curiousity...
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I can't see anything in the rules that says the only equipment allowed for WC bouldering is shoes and a chalk bag, but I would expect that that is the case.
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All this talk of twats and not a single mention of BenF whose names is officially spelt T.W.A.T. What is the world coming to!! :wall:
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DG BTS in Hueco- Where Love Goes to Die (V13) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/38377140)
:bow: masterful :bow:
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Annat & Reiff on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/62028364)
1:40 stick that in yer pipes.
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Kneepads just change the goalposts of the climbable and, possibly, make the game more interesting, just like chalk, sticky rubber, bouldering pads and the rest
and extendable ladders I think they are a complete game changer (especially for highballs), so far it seems that its mainly a UK thing!!
Anyway a quick question for experienced kneebarers! Any advice on how to make them not slip? I presume Barrows is wearing shorts in the middle of winter as the pads tend to grip better to skin rather than your trousers?
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If you really want zero slippage it's a big faff, but here's the American beta:
1. Shave your upper leg. This is essential to avoid severe pain after the next steps.
2. Get some of this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mueller-Sports-Strapping-Support-Adhesive/dp/B001C0I450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363687401&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mueller-Sports-Strapping-Support-Adhesive/dp/B001C0I450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363687401&sr=8-1)
Spray it on your leg before you put the pad on. Don't do this if you have a pretty dress to wear in the near future as it leaves a weird black mark that looks like you have a bruised leg.
3. Gaffa tape: once round the leg, then once half on the leg half on the pad and once round the pad. The final round may need to be half on the leg and half on the pad instead of all on the pad on some kneebars as otherwise you'll find the gaffa in the way.
You're only likely to need one of steps 2 and 3 unless it's hardcore knees and then you want both. (e.g. for pilgrimage I used spray and gaffa on the right leg but just using spray was fine for the left. Spray may not be needed for the 5.10 ones as they have a less slippy interior material than the rock and resole ones I've been using recently.
As for when they're over trousers, I'm not sure how to stop slippage well as it's the trouser that usually does the sliding rather than the pad
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If you really want zero slippage it's a big faff, but here's the American beta:
1. Shave your upper leg. This is essential to avoid severe pain after the next steps.
2. Get some of this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mueller-Sports-Strapping-Support-Adhesive/dp/B001C0I450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363687401&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mueller-Sports-Strapping-Support-Adhesive/dp/B001C0I450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363687401&sr=8-1)
Spray it on your leg before you put the pad on. Don't do this if you have a pretty dress to wear in the near future as it leaves a weird black mark that looks like you have a bruised leg.
3. Gaffa tape: once round the leg, then once half on the leg half on the pad and once round the pad. The final round may need to be half on the leg and half on the pad instead of all on the pad on some kneebars as otherwise you'll find the gaffa in the way.
You're only likely to need one of steps 2 and 3 unless it's hardcore knees and then you want both. (e.g. for pilgrimage I used spray and gaffa on the right leg but just using spray was fine for the left. Spray may not be needed for the 5.10 ones as they have a less slippy interior material than the rock and resole ones I've been using recently.
As for when they're over trousers, I'm not sure how to stop slippage well as it's the trouser that usually does the sliding rather than the pad
wow, Alex you are a bigger nerd than I realised ;)
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This kneebarring bollocks is becoming more appealing the geekier it becomes!
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Ideal trousers for 5.10 pad??
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Rubber ones?
You of all people must own a pair.
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I do. They limit flexibility too much ...
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Even with that hole you cut out on the ass?
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It’s only a matter of time before someone invents kneebarring trousers with stitched in pads.
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Snickers?
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It’s only a matter of time before someone invents kneebarring trousers with stitched in pads.
Pretty certain I saw Doylo in the cave with jeans on that had bits of old five ten rubber glued all over the knees...
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It’s only a matter of time before someone invents kneebarring trousers with stitched in pads.
I believe Stu Littlefair's mum already has that avenue sewn up...! ;)
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...maybe for shin bars!
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It’s only a matter of time before someone invents kneebarring trousers with stitched in pads.
Done, and it looks like they've gone more than global!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BGTiKj1CYAAUtYS.jpg:large)
Taken from Cmdr Chris Hadfiel's tweet-stream from the ISSS.
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Don't get too excited now abarro81....
(http://i.imgur.com/8nKgMOi.jpg)