[a dense loner]

Ps we are on a bouldering forum here, I don't care if sharmas bird has got 2kneepads 2 elbow pads, tape running up the length of both her forearms and wearing a rubber headband for headrests. That's not bouldering n everyone knows it

[abarro81]

I can't remember who made the HMC comment but if ure alluding to WOL, it was climbed by dai, in shorts. Blue if I remember correctly

And then Pringle, Graham and Dory using kneepads (and Parsons and Kassay without)

[a dense loner]

I have no idea about crisps but, here it is, DG and ID didn't do WOL. Watch all the vids n then get back to me. Don't let 74 moves confuse you. I mean we all know Webb is out of his mind but he very occasionally has moments of clarity, and then snaps. If this hurts so much put it on another thread and we'll keep this one about knee bars

[lagerstarfish]

excellent thread

I've made a start top roping the classic gritstone slab routes this winter. With all the mud and scrittle on my shoes making my feet skid off repeatedly, I was thinking of using knee pads to help me get a better grip.

Will this help?

many thanks

Bumbling Grade Whore from Heeley

[a dense loner]

It may help but I suggest you find a crack to wedge said knee in for a rest, unfortunately it won't change the overall grade of the climb but you can be smug in the knowledge that most people won't bring a knee pad to the party and you'll be the centre of attention

[lagerstarfish]

you can be smug in the knowledge that most people won't bring a knee pad to the party and you'll be the centre of attention

I'll buy a pair

[abarro81]

Where's the dg vid?

[shark]

Ps we are on a bouldering forum here, I don't care if sharmas bird has got 2kneepads 2 elbow pads, tape running up the length of both her forearms and wearing a rubber headband for headrests. That's not bouldering n everyone knows it

We might be on a bouldering forum but the labels for routes and boulder problems are increasingly indistinct when you have link-ups at Parisella's with twice as many moves as Hubble and lines on grit that can be led or highballed.

Thanks for sharing your Daila fantasy   

[a dense loner]

Which is why I've repeatedly agreed for a cave-eat. It's fine there

[dod]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/#in/photostream

edit: sorry im too thick to work out how to post an image

[Pantontino]

I can't remember who made the HMC comment but if ure alluding to WOL, it was climbed by dai, in shorts. Blue if I remember correctly

And then Pringle, Graham and Dory using kneepads (and Parsons and Kassay without)

Alex, bit of an own goal, bringing up Wheel of Life, no?

Especially as you (and a few others) tried to suggest that the Parisella's 'no knee pads' idea was some kind of bizarre/out of step anomaly. Turns out it is anything but that. Turns out that some climbers, way over on the other side of the world, have come to the same conclusion, namely that you are kidding yourself if you reduce someone else's epic first ascent achievement to a series of rubber aided rests.

[slackline]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/90566228@N03/8225914225/#in/photostream

edit: sorry im too thick to work out how to post an image

Use the "Share" link above the picture.  Under this is a "Grab HTML/BBCode" you want the BBCode to paste into this forum, select your size then copy and paste et voila...


poodle walk by dod2002, on Flickr

Explained in the handy How to Embed Pictures to UKBouldering : Backlinking Flickr the easy way page on the UKB Wiki .

[rosmat]

Dod, that is ace. Fact.

[abarro81]

Alex, bit of an own goal, bringing up Wheel of Life, no?

Especially as you (and a few others) tried to suggest that the Parisella's 'no knee pads' idea was some kind of bizarre/out of step anomaly. Turns out it is anything but that. Turns out that some climbers, way over on the other side of the world, have come come to same conclusion, namely that you are kidding yourself if you reduce someone else's epic first ascent achievement to a series of rubber aided rests.

Maybe.  I don't think they have a 'no knee pads rule' though, just that Kassay wanted to do it without for his own motivation. My point was more that visiting climbers will come and use pads, whether you like it or not. (In the same way, Tor locals might like to do ben's roof using the original line but no-one would expect anyone other than the local devotees to use the right hand exit nowadays)

Kassay doesn't seem to mind pads nearly as much as you:
"For travelling tourists who don’t have the time to commit to the cave that I have and just want to start at the bottom and climb to the top then I think they are a great option and I still respect the people who have done it that way! It just wasn’t the way I was going to do it."
"Ultimately I set myself a personal goal and that was the way I was going to do it. "
Doesn't seem to think DG/ID/EP are 'kidding themselves' or 'reducing Dai's achievement'. Or maybe he's just being nice rather than saying what he thinks.
Kidding yourself would be taking 8B for DC when you're tall and using pads, or thinking that the challenge is the same. It's not, and that will be obvious to anyone who does it in that style. Kidding yourself would also - in my opinion - be thinking that doing these things without pads in this day and ages is anything other than eliminate. Not that that matters if that sort of thing isn't important to you. Personally I think that 'reducing' an obvious line/challenge (e.g. something like dorsal stream) to an eliminate is worse than 'reducing' the achievement of the FA, but that's purely personal opinion.

[Stu Littlefair]

Turns out that some climbers, way over on the other side of the world, have come to the same conclusion, namely that you are kidding yourself if you reduce someone else's epic first ascent achievement to a series of rubber aided rests.

I think thats:

a) your conclusion, not theirs (see alex's quotes from Kassay);

b) pretending Alex is saying something he's not. Show me where he claims that what he's done is comparable to Cassidy's first ascent in any way. If he hasn't, then how is he 'kidding himself' - or anyone else for that matter?

The nub of the problem here seems to be that people find it really hard to get to grips with the fact that a boulder problem evolves. I can understand the emotional desire to 'preserve' director's cut as the balls-out power endurance feat it originally was. Unfortunately, it's a position in defiance of the facts of the ground. DC is a different proposition now, and no amount of teeth grinding and wishing it wasn't so will change that. The architecture of the problem is at fault, not Barrows using good technique, and proper equipment.

Incidentally, why all the focus on the kneebars halfway along Lou Ferrino? To me the kneebar on the crux of trigger cut affects directors cut MUCH more, and there wasn't all this wailing and nashing of teeth when Doylo found that...

[Nibile]

I think that this issue is so deepley related to personal choices, feelings and motivations, that it's very difficult to try and get a consensus about whether pads are a better or worse style. I mean, some people I know go out with women so ugly that I won't let them walk their dog in my neighborhood If I could, let alone be seen with me; but if it works for them, fine.
These people could say the same about myself: ah, he always tries to get the blonde in high heels and never succeeds, while I fuck every night.
To me it's as simple as that. You like pads, you use pads. You don't like them, you don't use them.
Am I being too trivial?
Sorry if so.

[Nibile]

Sorry if 

[Stu Littlefair]

Interestingly, the Tor provides an interesting parallel to this discussion.

There's no doubt that the (many) kneebars on Ben's Roof and the kneebars on Mecca make those routes/problems substantially easier and different. There was much discussion about the grade of Mecca with the kneebars, and some light hearted ribbing, but I don't remember anyone seriously suggesting you shouldn't use the kneebars/pads on either of these. People still do them without, out of habit or for a training challenge. Basically, the locals accepted the change and moved on.

If you care about climbing in general, and not just bouldering (even pseudo-bouldering like the Cave) Mecca probably is more historically significant than Directors Cut, being THE first, and many peoples personal first, at the grade. Still, things change.

Interestingly, many people who previously aspired to do Mecca are now sniffing around the extension. If I lived in wales and fit in the kneebars, I'd be excited that Doylo and Barrows have opened up a new power endurance classic to me, rather than being upset that a testpiece that was out of my league has altered in style/difficulty...

[Stu Littlefair]

To me it's as simple as that. You like pads, you use pads. You don't like them, you don't use them.
Am I being too trivial?
Sorry if so.

Nibs - I like your style. To me it's as simple as that.

[a dense loner]

But now the guide needs to be re-written and an anomaly in the form of a giant in a suit of rubber has come along and done a lot of problems in a manner that normal people wouldn't be able to repeat. Hence the reason I have put my two penneth in saying the grades should be kept the same, as they are for normal ascents and not reduced to nonsense cos a stretched fetishist has made a mockery of some stuff.

[Stu Littlefair]

Dense - I agree in principle, but I'm not sure that most normal people can't get the kneebar in on trigger cut.

Last time I was at the cave, most people there could get it to work. Either way, I don't see how grading the cave is causing such issues.

If most people can use the kneebar, grade it for using kneebars. If only freaks can, grade it for without. If you care a lot about these things, put 'Morpho' in the description, if you *really* care enough about these things put '7b+ for the tall', or somesuch. Simples, no?

[Stu Littlefair]

p.s

sorry for the mega post dump - trying to fit a day's worth of garbage into the space between staff meetings...

[abarro81]

To me the kneebar on the crux of trigger cut affects directors cut MUCH more,

This is definitely true. I'm fairly confident DC would be doable for me without the resting knees, though it would have taken longer (in fact I did wonder initially whether the rest was a red herring and more trouble then it's worth). Conversely, without the knee on TC but with the resting knees I wouldn't have a hope in hell.

[nodder]

Incidentally, why all the focus on the kneebars halfway along Lou Ferrino? To me the kneebar on the crux of trigger cut affects directors cut MUCH more, and there wasn't all this wailing and nashing of teeth when Doylo found that...

probably because he did it with a tea towel on his leg.  Think this is about the difference that the kneepads make to the kneebars.  While we could all do the kneebar pre pad, doubt anyone would shakeout up there.   

[a dense loner]

With the tor, bens roof has been kept at 7c+ has it not, to quote Ben the other month upon seeing someone trying it with a kneepad "interesting what grade does it get like that, about 7b" how many people have took a reduced grade for Mecca while wearing pads? If they don't help why would ned ave chosen to put the kneepad in n posed giving 2thumbs up for the camera while laughing for about half an hr.
Pads are all very well but not everyone chooses to use them. This is not the same as choosing not to wear shoes or use chalk. Saying everybody can use them n make new grades up based on knee pads alone is a bit missing the point?

Exactly what nodders has just said.
I agree with myself in principal stu, that's all we can go off. Everything else can be treated as anomalous or a freakshow