[Bonjoy]

  BTW - I didn't comment on the Mecca thread because it was a train wreck.
What I would have said, so might as well say now is; having failled on the route with and without a kneepad and being quite handy with kneebars, I think it makes a huge difference, possibly enough to drop the grade, but I don't have enough experience at the grade to be fully sure. How can a half decent rest halfway up a PE route not make things a lot easier? Anyone who doesn't get a good rest off that knee, either has unusually short lower legs or is bad at resting on kneebars.

[Paul B]

Eliminating equipment isn't quite the same as eliminating holds though is it?

Eliminating pads is just eliminating knee holds by another name.

No it isn't, otherwise the kneebar wouldn't have exited until pads which clearly isn't the case. Barrows et al. have glossed over the bounds of acceptability question I raised a page or so ago but I'm beginning to think his opinion would be anything goes, fruit boots (what a term Pete!) here we come!

[Jack.G]

This sounds really cheesy but here goes.


Bouldering has not needed, and does not need to have, a solid ethical definition as it is the form, diffculty and nature of the actual climbing that is the pursuit. This rightly runs in conjunction with the acceptance of a few unwritten rules, essentially the underpinning common-sense rules of all climbing ethics.

Ethics from more cluttered forms of climbing require boundaries and development control as the equipment plays such a major part in the overall pursuit.

Knee pads are a game changer for bouldering, and its the addition of "equipment" that has the direct effect of threatening to bring boundaries into a pastime that is by its very conception, is so defined otherwise.

Shoes, chalk and mats all have good and bad arguments but have been accepted for very good reasons.


I for one dont really give a monkeys about the Cave (just give it all sport grades and get back to work), or what others are doing around the world (oh, but he did it on this problem there, who gives?)

This is about Bouldering, in the UK.

[Bonjoy]

Eliminating equipment isn't quite the same as eliminating holds though is it?

Eliminating pads is just eliminating knee holds by another name.

No it isn't

Oh yes it is.
If a knee hold isn't useful without a pad then you are effectively eliminating it. Like if you force people to wear socks instead of rockshoes you would be effectively eliminating a lot of footholds.

[nodder]

But rockattrocity might be easier in crampons doesnt men you should use them

[lmarenzi]

I thought Dave Graham used a huge knee pad when he did Kings of Leon in Swizzy, Chris Sharma said he tried it that way too (Dosage 4?).

Seems like that was about 135 years ago ... so I always assumed that knee pads are in

Not got a knee pad myself, usually just  and bear it.

[Doylo]

BTW - I didn't comment on the Mecca thread because it was a train wreck.
What I would have said, so might as well say now is; having failled on the route with and without a kneepad and being quite handy with kneebars, I think it makes a huge difference, possibly enough to drop the grade, but I don't have enough experience at the grade to be fully sure. How can a half decent rest halfway up a PE route not make things a lot easier? Anyone who doesn't get a good rest off that knee, either has unusually short lower legs or is bad at resting on kneebars.

That's what i said on the Mecca thread but felt a bit guilty afterwards.  Bad timing but we all know that.  It's true that the Trigger Cut kneebars are what makes Director's so much easier.  The 3 hard moves are piss with the pad.  The move to the shothole without is full on hardcore from the start of LF.  It seems silly that there's only one grade between them really.  However I think if Barrows hadn't of used that no hander i don't think there would have been quite as much furore.  As Stu says Halfway, Broken Trigger and Daisy From Concrete have all been done with kneepads and no ones kicked up too much of a stink.  Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents, it's the footage of the no hander that really rubbed salt in the wound IMO.  I don't know what the cut off point for height is but Robins did get it to work and i think Dan V used it that day he came years ago (have Dan as average height in my head)?? I guess it just gets more bomber the bigger you get.
This thread has got me salivating over the thought of my route project - the best kneebar sequence ever! Shame it'll never be dry again...

[Doylo]

I thought Dave Graham used a huge knee pad when he did Kings of Leon in Swizzy, Chris Sharma said he tried it that way too (Dosage 4?).

Seems like that was about 135 years ago ... so I always assumed that knee pads are in

Not got a knee pad myself, usually just  and bear it.

Kings of Sonlerto 8b+?

[Bonjoy]

But rockattrocity might be easier in crampons doesnt men you should use them

Not a valid comparison. Crampon spikes are effectively new appendages. Pads, like rock shoes provide comfort and friction to existing appendages.

[abarro81]

Mecca - I suspect i could get a rest on there without a pad, just not as good. Didn't Smitton used to rest on it without a pad? Like I said, I've not tried so I don't really know, I just gave it 8b+ cos it felt harder for me than the 8b+, 8b/+ and 8b I'd done in France about a month earlier and at least a grade harder than Gran Techo (8b) which I did about the same time.

Paul - I have no idea where the bounds of acceptability are. But then you could surely ask exactly the same question about where the bounds of acceptability are with heels RE the hooks on anasazis and how you could modify those or take them further. Or what you're allowed to do to the top of your shoes to help with toe hooks.

Ethics from more cluttered forms of climbing require boundaries and development control as the equipment plays such a major part in the overall pursuit.

I don't see why bouldering is so different to sport climbing. Convince me..

threatening to bring boundaries into a pastime that is by its very conception, is so defined otherwise.

Sounds like pretentious crap to me

Shoes, chalk and mats all have good and bad arguments but have been accepted for very good reasons.

And what arguments are those that don't apply to knee pads?
People have rightly said that we draw arbitrary lines - accepting that and choosing to draw an arbitrary line of 'no pads' is a lot better an argument to me (even if I don't agree) than anything you've come up with in the above quotes, certainly when you try to claim there are good reasons for the arbitrary lines of shoes and chalk. I have yet to see these good reasons - hit me up.

This is about Bouldering, in the UK.

Maybe this is where it's all going wrong. For me, and I suspect for people like Stu and Bonjoy too though I obviously don't speak for them, this is about route climbing and bouldering everywhere. If I'm going to use pads I'm going to use them on routes in rifle, boulders in Bishop etc.

As Stu says Halfway, Broken Trigger and Daisy From Concrete have all been done with kneepads and no ones kicked up too much of a stink.  Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents, it's the footage of the no hander that really rubbed salt in the wound IMO. 

It doesn't surprise me, people love giving me shit 

[Nigel]

Knee pads are a game changer for bouldering

No they aren't, that's ridiculous. It affects about 0.0001% of problems.

[Doylo]

It doesn't surprise me, people love giving me shit 

That's cos you fuckin deserve it 

[nodder]

I don't know any more I thought they were good.  Then got convinced they were bad.  Now I think they might be good again.  Someone needs to tell me what to do.

[Doylo]

I don't know any more I thought they were good.  Then got convinced they were bad.  Now I think they might be good again.  Someone needs to tell me what to do.

You were gonna take 8b for Directors with pads!! 

[Nigel]

I don't know any more I thought they were good.  Then got convinced they were bad.  Now I think they might be good again.  Someone needs to tell me what to do.

Don't worry Nodder, I woke up this morning convinced that they were cheating yet now I'm wearing a rubber catsuit.

[Doylo]

I don't know any more I thought they were good.  Then got convinced they were bad.  Now I think they might be good again.  Someone needs to tell me what to do.

Don't worry Nodder, I woke up this morning convinced that they were cheating yet now I'm wearing a rubber catsuit.

You off down the Spearmint Rhino again??

[nodder]

You were gonna take 8b for Directors with pads!!   

I am not sure about that? did i say that?  Good job I never got round to it.   

[a dense loner]

What's directors with pads? Is it a new eliminate?

[Pantontino]

Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents

That's unfair Doylo - you know this subject has been discussed extensively (away from the internet) over the last year or so. I've had numerous discussions/debates, with Nodder, Pete (and you) about it. At first I wasn't sure where it was heading and how far it would influence things in the Cave. I listened to both sides and felt increasingly uneasy about it. Yes, that film of Alex was the clincher for me, but that doesn't undermine my current viewpoint at all.

Oh, and Pete told me that the TC knee bar doesn't work for him.

[a dense loner]

Yeh I bet he told u that while he had both hands off n was riding it like a fuckin horse

[Doylo]

Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents

That's unfair Doylo - you know this subject has been discussed extensively (away from the internet) over the last year or so. I've had numerous discussions/debates, with Nodder, Pete (and you) about it. At first I wasn't sure where it was heading and how far it would influence things in the Cave. I listened to both sides and felt increasingly uneasy about it. Yes, that film of Alex was the clincher for me, but that doesn't undermine my current viewpoint at all.

Oh, and Pete told me that the TC knee bar doesn't work for him.

I don't remember you being unduly negative though. I saw Pete do Trigger Cut with the pad and he reached to the shothole pretty damn slowly.  It was on the cusp for him though and he's got TC pretty wired anyway

[fatboySlimfast]

jesus, give me the time back that I will never see again that i have spent reading the last 2 pages..................
just as well Im at work ..........

[Pantontino]

Pantontino never said anything derogatory about those ascents

That's unfair Doylo - you know this subject has been discussed extensively (away from the internet) over the last year or so. I've had numerous discussions/debates, with Nodder, Pete (and you) about it. At first I wasn't sure where it was heading and how far it would influence things in the Cave. I listened to both sides and felt increasingly uneasy about it. Yes, that film of Alex was the clincher for me, but that doesn't undermine my current viewpoint at all.

Oh, and Pete told me that the TC knee bar doesn't work for him.

I don't remember you being unduly negative though. I saw Pete do Trigger Cut with the pad and he reached to the shothole pretty damn slowly.  It was on the cusp for him though and he's got TC pretty wired anyway

I wasn't ranting in people's faces about it (like I am now) but I did say a long time ago that the obvious solution was to use split grades for the Cave. All that has happened since then is that my opinion has hardened.

I have actually got a pic of Pete wearing a 5.10 knee pad from that day - I can't remember what happened when he tried it on the TC knee bar, maybe your memory is better than mine.

[Doylo]

He did Trigger Cut ok with the pad but took it off for Broken Trigger.

[nodder]

I wasn't ranting in people's faces about it (like I am now) but I did say a long time ago that the obvious solution was to use split grades for the Cave. All that has happened since then is that my opinion has hardened.

So now you just need a list of grades for each method