[dave]

I have no problem with people using long-handled putters at parisellas or indeed any crag.

[Stu Littlefair]

Nobody on this thread has ever said that people 'shouldn't' climb with pads. That's crystal clear. As Nibble said - how could you. I certainly don't think people 'shouldn't' use them.  Seems to be a case of people getting offended when other people (more than you originally thought perhaps?) don't agree with Alex's assertions that pads in the cave are 'rad and cool'. I think bareback/padless on Director's Cut and all the other probs is a way radder and cooler thing to aspire to, no offense. That seems to offend you and make you think people are out to stop other people doing what they want, I can't understand why (unless you're the UK importer of stealth pads. btw not very 'stealthy' are they). It doesn't matter much what I think, the majority will either take to pads on those 3D cave probs or they won't, we'll know in a few years.

Whilst I don't think anyone has tried to actually ban pads it sends out a pretty strong signal that you don't approve of their use if they are described as "wank" and claiming an ascent with pads is described as "kidding yourself". That position can only be described as you thinking that people shouldn't use pads.

 I've no problem with folk thinking that a padless ascent of a problem is cooler than one with pads, and I haven't been offended by anything so far. If at times i've argued stridently against you and Si its because i can't see any logic in your position, but also I feel a bit sorry for Barrows (I never thought I'd say that). The guy does a hard problem (for him) that he really enjoyed and is probably quite proud of, and all he gets from the welsh mafia is a slagging for using one more knee bar than the two you lot are currently using.

 I do appreciate the points you and Simon are making. Yes we make arbitrary rules in climbing and one of these could be that pads are not fair game. But most of the rules we make in climbing have some sort of logic behind them; usually the argument is that a practice or piece of equipment makes the game too easy (like with heel spurs, or bolts). I don't see this applying to pads since they can only be used on a small number of problems. Really, they are exactly like rock shoes, with the notable exception that they are a relative novelty. I wish we had the Internet when Fires were released...

Having said that, kneepads are probably only a novelty in wales; in sport climbing and in bouldering in other countries pad use is widespread. I know I won't convince you that pads are cool (although - seriously - try them), but I'd be very surprised if this argument hasn't become redundant in 5 years and almost everyone has a pad. I have a mental image of Simon wandering around the Orme telling off pad users like the old legends in Bleu who scowl at chalk bags...

[Boogster]

Having said that, kneepads are probably only a novelty in wales; in sport climbing and in bouldering in other countries pad use is widespread. I know I won't convince you that pads are cool (although - seriously - try them), but I'd be very surprised if this argument hasn't become redundant in 5 years and almost everyone has a pad. I have a mental image of Simon wandering around the Orme telling off pad users like the old legends in Bleu who scowl at chalk bags...

Isn't the point that those old bleausards are legendary for refusing to compromise what they suppose to be the purest style? That's what's going on here, too. Essentially some people are arguing that kneepads compromise the purity of ascent - and they are undoubtably less intrinsic to climbing style as shoes, for instance.

What's really interesting is that this debate is only happening because climbing is changing quite quickly from a lifestyle or pursuit into something that more closely resembles a modern sport (with all the bollocks that entails). A 'pursuit' is likely governed by ethics established by precedent or popular agreement. A sport is quite different; its rules are usually codified, more specific, and less likely to change.
I don't think these sort of arguments are as likely to settle over time as you suggest. I think it's more likely that at some point a standard will be established in a more formal manner. It will of course be entirely arbitrary.

[Bonjoy]

Oh yes it is.
If a knee hold isn't useful without a pad then you are effectively eliminating it. Like if you force people to wear socks instead of rockshoes you would be effectively eliminating a lot of footholds.

This is VERY different to what you suggested in your earlier post. Yes, if pads were considered a bridge too far then effectively those knee holds wouldn't be useful in the same way as crimps/slopers/cracks where we can't gain useful purchase are 'eliminated' in a natural manner. What's your point here?

My point? Nodder said eliminating pads and eliminating holds where not comparable. I disputed him, based on the fact that eliminating pads is a proxy way of eliminating a lot (not all obviously) of knee holds.
To save me re-reading all my old posts can you tell me what I said that you think was VERY different previously? I don't recall saying anything that contradicts the above.

Nobody is 'eliminating' knees, you were born with those. Its the use of additional technology that is questionable (debatable?) and as I pointed out, a big grey area for acceptability going forward. We've already established that using EVERY available piece of tech isn't the future, Petejh pointed this out pages ago.

Would you be happy to find Steve Mac bat-hanging from two skyhooks taped to his anasazis at Malham one day? This is obviously a flippant and extreme (ly stupid) example but the point is some things are made easier by using new technology and not all of it would be deemed acceptable.

I don't think this is actually a difficult line to draw. I've adressed this already and nobody has challenged my reasoning. What is wrong with drawing the line at the obvious place?? To state it again, all bodily appendages are legit, and so is equipment which improves the comfort and friction when climbing with said appendage. Adding new appendages, small or large, is not legit. It's not complex and it covers future advances as well as current tech.

[Fiend]

Mmmmmm appendages.

[Owen]

uh oh!

http://www.google.com/patents/US3965486

[Pantontino]

Split grades in the cave? Would look even more ridiculous than giving combined V/font grades. Lets not turn our bouldering into a laughing stock.

Talk about an over reaction, and for what?

A tiny bit of extra grade info on a page, and only for certain problems (obviously not all) in one specialist/unique venue.

It's no big deal and it keeps the peace.

If I do it your way I save 1% space on a page (a pointless exercise) and piss off a whole section of the climbing community.

[Pantontino]

uh oh!

http://www.google.com/patents/US3965486

Could work well with my 2020 magnetic rubber gimp suit (with augmented reality sequence provider).

[nodder]

Pneumatic kneepads.  Thats amazing. 

I wasn't giving him shit I come from Wales. 

Is the blow up knee pad a step too far?  After all its only the same as the rolled up tea towel stuck to the knee (or is this changing your appendage?).  At this point I could see the point of a voluntary ban.  (If that was in anyway doable)

[Pantontino]

Bonjoy:

So, is 'significantly' changing the size and shape of an appendage acceptable?

That metaphorical line you drew (in the sand) is starting to blur already.

[Bonjoy]

nodder - You can volunteer for it, I'm not.

Pantontino - You make it sound more complex than it is in practice. It would not be hard differentiate if presented with new innovations, based on the comfort/friction principle.  How many rock shoes have we had to ban recently for overreaching the bounds? Some folk got wound up by Madrock heels, but it was rather accedemic, as in practice (as would be the case with robotic knee flanges etc) they are shit and don't make climbing easier.
If you can give me an example of something (outside of boot tech) which might actually help you climb and is not obviously one side or other of my notional line, then I'll take your point seriously.

[Pantontino]

Stu, it is okay for people to use pads in the cave, of course it is, but I reserve the right to express my own personal feelings about such a thing.

If I used the guide as a platform for my own viewpoint, especially when it is clear that there are plenty of people out there who disagree with me, that would be wrong.

Coming on here and talking about it, even in a rather 'colourful' fashion, is okay, I reckon. Judging by this thread, Alex gives as good as he gets, I'd be surprised if he cares much what I or anybody else thinks.

If he is upset by what has been said then I'm sorry about that.

[Pantontino]

nodder - You can volunteer for it, I'm not.

Pantontino - You make it sound more complex than it is in practice. It would not be hard differentiate if presented with new innovations, based on the comfort/friction principle.  How many rock shoes have we had to ban recently for overreaching the bounds? Some folk got wound up by Madrock heels, but it was rather accedemic, as in practice (as would be the case with robotic knee flanges etc) they are shit and don't make climbing easier.
If you can give me an example of something (outside of boot tech) which might actually help you climb and is not obviously one side or other of my notional line, then I'll take your point seriously.

I was thinking back to what Ferret said about adjustable knee pads - i.e. you can change them so they effectively give you a bigger leg. Now you could tweak that slightly so that you could make specific shapes that would fit specific marginal knee bar positions. Thus making it possible to get a hands off rest in places where it was not possible before (sound familiar?).

Just because this didn't happen with rock shoes doesn't mean it won't happen with pads.

[nodder]

Out of intrest anybody used them on lip traverses and prows some of these must be easier with a pair on your thighs just with the rubber facing in rather than out.  Then you would need them all the time not just in specialist cases.     

[Bonjoy]

Pantontino - A short climber padding out a kneepad is much like a short climber stacking a pad to reach the first holds. I accept it represents a grey area because it violates my 'rule' but is arguably justifiable.
Likewise with minor tweaks to kneepads. So yes I accept that there is a grey area.
However it is a vanishingly slim grey area at the boundary (name me a boundary that doesn't have tiny scope for anomalies), affecting very few climbs indeed. Anything beyond the slightest of measures would be much more obviously over the line. I don't think the grey area is so large or unmanagable as to render the general principle unworkable. But by all means suggest another line in the sand if you think there is a simpler one which is less problematic.

Nodder - I try them on everything, including campus boards





PS - As an aside, I'm sure I read somewhere that Steve Mac did stick something on the toes of his boots to help with bathangs on one of the Malham routes. 

[tomtom]

Out of intrest anybody used them on lip traverses and prows some of these must be easier with a pair on your thighs just with the rubber facing in rather than out.  Then you would need them all the time not just in specialist cases.     

I'd have liked one for my left calf on Old Spice at Carrcok fell.. I still have scabs on my calf from two weeks ago!

[andy_e]

Are rubber shinpads allowed?

[tomtom]

Are rubber shinpads allowed?

Cheating bastard. Thats just a step too far

[nodder]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mens-Black-Latex-Jeans-Pleat-Front-Rubber-Gummi-Trousers-Small-/321031942151?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4abefeb007

Sorted

[Monolith]

Didn't realise Crouchie was getting rid of his Sunday bests.

[tomtom]

Didn't realise Crouchie was getting rid of his Sunday bests.

I thought these might help... also with keeping ones end up (flag waving etc..)

[clgladiator]

I know everyone feels like they have a lot invested in this argument, but in my mind the only sensible place for it to continue would be in 'The Log Pile'.

[Jack.G]

Dont hide behind punterings, tell us what you really think.

[clgladiator]

To summarise my feelings and to avoid character assassination of you yourself, (im sure your lovely when not talking about kneebars). I just feel that this post is synonymous to a post entitled 'rock shoe/ standing on your feet trickery' I dont think that a post on that subject would last anywhere near as long. Its the 21st century, someone has developed a handy tool to help protect our knees and improve their function. Is it really such a big deal?

[Jack.G]

Consensus, if you have a genuine interest and opinion post it up.

Character assaination ? whatever.