[Pantontino]

yep 181 cm checked thrice and validated by 2 others I can provide video evidence if I really have too

You might be a sub 6 footer, just, (5ft and 10.59 inches), but your arms are about 16 foot long. Or maybe you're just really stretchy?

I went for a health check once and the nurse told me that most people think they are taller and lighter than what they actually are.

Anyway, it seems that leg proportions are more important than height...

...same principal applies though.

[abarro81]

Waiting for in hell and in life to get the barrows treatment now!

Not tried the bottom bit but...
There's a knee at the start of RA. Not useful on the RA links as it involves hands being on the left, but a shake and chalk on pilgrim(age) and the leftwards links probably. Only put it in once to see how it was, might be useable no hands with some playing with the body position and a strong core, I don't know. (It's not leg length dependent and it had already been found so I accept no responsibility for any ensuing downgrades)

[Fiend]

Bye Moo   

[Monolith]

I was wondering at what point in the thread tall people might take a bashing 

For what it's worth, I haven't seen some parts of the thread as pointless since the majority of us impart a great meaning upon the ethics of our climbing.

I also think that Simon's effort to reconcile and transpose all of these differences of opinion into a tangible action for the purposes of the guidebook is a sound one - i.e. distilled most simply to a grading range that takes into account a number of factors.

Consider some of these core factors necessary to formulate a grade:

a) Height (the antecedent of all grading factors)

b) With or without kneebar (a perhaps slightly more latter-day grading factor)


Attempting to merge this set of variables:


Scenario:

1. Climber A is short, can't get a kneebar and gets 7c+ for Problem 1.

2. Climber B is tall,  and either doesn't use a kneepad or the kneebar and takes 7c (the middle value)

3. Climber C is tall, uses a kneepad and gets 7b+/7c for Problem 1.


I think Slackers touches lucidly upon what constitutes 'short' and what constitutes 'tall'. Proceed from here as you wish.

I for one fall into the middle of these categories and though I might never own or use a kneepad, I could still sleep at night knowing that my similarly tall accomplice climbed the same problem with a kneepad and took a split grade. I could also sleep if he took the full grade or the grade above since I climb for myself and myself only. Similarly, I would suffer no disturbance if a short climber received the higher grade where reach is the predominant factor that he or she simply does not possess.

N.B - At times, I wouldn't have minded some similar sporting compensation on some of the occasions where I have been forced to biomechanically compress myself into a ball to get off the ground. That said, I have come to realise that it all comes out in the wash and is indeed a case of 'swings and roundabouts'. Bonjoy said it best, Nige concurred and I'll reiterate - life isn't fair, move on.

Naturally, I can see that in the upper echelons of the sport where sponsorship depends upon performance, this matter has arguably more practicable relevance than at my level. That said, climbing is a part of my own raison d'être and at times it does matter to me what I 'get' for what I have done. I just wonder whether utilising the spread of a whole grade might be a useful means of departure at a point in time that we are asked to integrate these combinations of additional factors?

[carlisle slapper]

Femur two cents giving problems a split grade because of knees is a big mistake (but mentioning everything is easier for the tall but weak makes sense).

Malc used knees galore on Gutbuster and a pad, but not on pilgrimage does that mean i have to climb pilgrimage without but its ok on gutbuster?

I can see 2 opinions coming through here.

A:Some people really care about 1 problem/venue and aren't fussed about much else, they know the score with all the climbs and the history, some maybe first hand. (good "style" counts) probably climb much harder (and more often) at said venue than elsewhere and quite rightfully it hits a nerve if the rules all change.

B: Some people just see another bit of rock, one of billions all equal in that they are just a single stop in the choo choo send train. Use everything to get up it and get onto the next one. They use every trick in the book to get it done fast, enjoy it for what it is and move onto the next one, they might ride the kneebar train all the way for a while and thats cool if thats what they want to do, A: might see this as cheating the system but for B: its just part of climbing.

Group A: we can call locals, B visitors (although visitors can be frequent)

The most dignified solution is for A to let the rules change, like many are,(brave and humble) but may wish to bitch about it and kick up a stink letting everyone know how much easier it is now if your weak and tall. (hence this forum) but eventually concede to logic that its just one tiny bit of rock, with a fuck load of right angles in, knee bar heaven, and its going to get hammered by tall weak people desperate to look strong with the cool kids. Isn't the diamond where its at nowadays anyway?

Non of the above should get in the way of grading things properly, downgrading problems due to easier beta (and it sounds like kneebars are available for all people sizes, which makes sense as we all have knees and a brain) is just part of climbing. There's nothing shitter than having a guide with loads of rules to keep old problems artificially hard and new ones like isles of wonder next to them which are at the cutting edge and i'm sure Robins used all the kneebars available on it, which is zero, same as most of the other hard blocs in the country.

Like a bunch of us are saying if climbers give kneebars a chance in the next guide you might have an 8B+ with one in thats a stunning line and impossible without it. My current kneebar pad is a cut up anasazi velcro with the straps lengthened, it works miles better than the 5.10 one (which i also have) its free, after you buy the shoes, and it takes about 30mins effort to make. We're hardly talking about riding in the superman position whilst pumped up on EPO and Belgian Mix. I use it on maybe 1 problem in 30, of the 4 8Bish independent blocs i've put up this year i'd have tried to use it on all of them but unfortunately i've found a lot of properly hard climbing is pretty bloody blank. Last year it made Dandelion easier and more fun and i tried to use one on bewilderness but my knees are too weak so i had to use my fingers.

Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.

Barrows, Stu can teach you how to be cool, dont worry. he had kneebar pads way before they were trendy and he can campus nails board moves with the best of them.

[Nigel]

There's nothing shitter than having a guide with loads of rules to keep old problems artificially hard and new ones like isles of wonder next to them which are at the cutting edge and i'm sure Robins used all the kneebars available on it, which is zero, same as most of the other hard blocs in the country.

Amen.

[Stu Littlefair]

There's nothing shitter than having a guide with loads of rules to keep old problems artificially hard and new ones like isles of wonder next to them which are at the cutting edge and i'm sure Robins used all the kneebars available on it, which is zero, same as most of the other hard blocs in the country.

Amen.

 

(apart from at almscliffe).

p.s don't go Moo!

[Pantontino]

People can climb what they like however they like, and take whatever grade they think appropriate.

All the guide does (clue is in the name) is 'guide' you where problems go and give you a rough 'guide' of how hard they should feel for the average climber...and in this specific case (and the Cave is a very specific, nay unique case) how hard it will be if you use rubber knee pads, or not.

Why is that such a big deal?

I've no problem with people using kneepads to break new ground (i.e. new moves) - Doylo has just done exactly that on his Tramps Tea Party. But in the Cave there ain't much left except the mega link ups. We can either wait for some wonder kid to come along with a next level of fitness and strength (shame Liam Desroy gave up he might have fitted the bill) or we just accept that a yard dog strapped up in rubber will climb those big challenges at a much lower grade. Is that progress? Is it inevitable? Do I feel the tide lapping against my feet? ("Go away tide I command thee to stop!")

I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?

I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?

[Doylo]

Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.

That's true, shoe selection can make all the difference on hard heel manourvres. An oversized Anasazi with a bit of sag in the back has sorted me out on numerous occasions. As has a ridged Mad Rock, you need all the help you can get when you're tall and weak.   
I don't know what to think about grading these things in guides.  On one hand it seems cluttered and daft to give things two grades but at the same time it also makes little sense to grade things for the vast minority.

[dave]

Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.

Years back I was trying el pousah with the toehook method, not getting anywhere, the toehook felt shit. then had a go where I overshot the toehook and the edge of the velcro strap caught on the toehook spot, felt like a jug!

[Nemo]

"I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here" - Pantonino

I really don't think so (and hope not).  It's just people calling eliminates eliminates.

Basically what Carlisle said...  Kneepads are part and parcel of modern climbing.  You can choose not to use them if you wish but be under no illusion as to what you're doing - you're climbing eliminates.  The one bit I slightly disagree with him (and agree with Si), is that I don't see any problem with a guidebook giving grades for eliminates as well as proper problems - especially at venues like this.  There are problems at Almscliff which have double figures of grades for different styles of ascent - with / without heels, with / without toehooks, with / without feet, one handed, facing outwards with one hand scratching arse etc etc... For the most part guidebooks haven't bothered including such things, but I've little doubt that one day someone will write a 1000 page guide just to Almscliff bouldering, with all the variations under the sun.  And no doubt you could do something similar in the Cave.  It's the nature of the beast at steep crags which people use for training. 

And obviously, if the easiest sequence is something which only a few really tall people can do, it's probably best when writing a guide to give the grade for relatively normal people, and just mention that it's considerably easier for folks with the appropriate lank.  Just the same as for toe hooks or any other sequence alternative which only works for a small subset of people.

I'm pretty amazed though that these discussions about whether kneepads are "valid" are happening in 2012.  It's like being in Rifle two decades ago.  And seems about as relevant to modern climbing as the folks discussing whether chalk is "valid" on the other channel.

Having said that, I do understand the folks questioning "where does it all end" in terms of additional paraphernalia as technology improves.  If someone invented some kind of ridiculously thin rubber glove, which was way stickier than skin, then I'm quite sure it wouldn't be accepted.  But such things are science fiction, and might never happen anyway.  With current technology the situation is pretty clear - you can wrap as much rubber around any part of you're anatomy that you see fit.  If this means that some classic routes / problems get easier when folks find better sequences then, well, that's been happening since climbers have touched rock.

[Doylo]

Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.

Years back I was trying el pousah with the toehook method, not getting anywhere, the toehook felt shit. then had a go where I overshot the toehook and the edge of the velcro strap caught on the toehook spot, felt like a jug!

I did El Poussah with baggy anasazi heel, bomber.

[Moo]

[Doylo]

Good job there was no internet when Fires replaced EBs!

[erm, sam]

Regarding how to write up the grade/knees or not I think the Peak Bouldering Guide does a masterful job of understatedly covering the thorny issue of heels on The Green Traverse.

"The Green Traverse, 7a, From the rounded blob on the arete traverse left displaying as little technique as possible".

A gentle reminder to those that care enough or know enough to decode it that the correct way is to not use heels, but not getting so bothered about it as to ruin the day of anybody who just wants to climb the rock as they find it.

[AJM]

People can climb what they like however they like, and take whatever grade they think appropriate.

All the guide does (clue is in the name) is 'guide' you where problems go and give you a rough 'guide' of how hard they should feel for the average climber...and in this specific case (and the Cave is a very specific, nay unique case) how hard it will be if you use rubber knee pads, or not.

Why is that such a big deal?

I've no problem with people using kneepads to break new ground (i.e. new moves) - Doylo has just done exactly that on his Tramps Tea Party. But in the Cave there ain't much left except the mega link ups. We can either wait for some wonder kid to come along with a next level of fitness and strength (shame Liam Desroy gave up he might have fitted the bill) or we just accept that a yard dog strapped up in rubber will climb those big challenges at a much lower grade. Is that progress? Is it inevitable? Do I feel the tide lapping against my feet? ("Go away tide I command thee to stop!")

To be honest, if it's a long link then it's going to be effectively a route (in that it'll have more moves than many routes) and so it seems like progress would be to use all the efficient tactics available to climb it with the minimum of effort - you wouldn't respect anyone who ignored all the kneebars on a cave roof in Spain at the same angle more than someone who rested across it, so why does it change just because the roof is a bit lower? Maybe this is my route climbers mindset showing though, I don't know.

Given that a few people have commented that some of these kneebars have already been used to some extent or are useable without pads, are you going to assume in the guidebook grade that the "average climber" isn't good enough to use any of them (it reads as though the "with pads" grade will be secondary), pad or no? I guess if so all that effectively means is that you're preserving a historical picture of the cave as it was...

I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?

I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?

From the position of the dispassionate observer, that's not how this thread has read to me at all. Your choosing to use the argument reads, to be honest, like a way to try and turn this into an "us and them" argument, which always makes it easier to reinforce your views at the expense of theirs.

[Bonjoy]

I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?

I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?

I think you might have a worse impression of us than we have of you....

[rodma]

Heels are much more controversial than knees if people look at them properly (shoe to shoe differences), the reason why loads of moves are easier is becausue the muira and anasazi heels allow you to hang off the rand edge, not friction (effectively a crap heel spur) crap loads of problems are easier with it, hooking the gaps in anasazi heels into pebbles is also easy to do (caminati on voyager). When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.

Years back I was trying el pousah with the toehook method, not getting anywhere, the toehook felt shit. then had a go where I overshot the toehook and the edge of the velcro strap caught on the toehook spot, felt like a jug!

I did El Poussah with baggy anasazi heel, bomber.

I did something similar on fata cos i can't catch wee pockets

[abarro81]

Us and them... I like it. Can we have some east-side west-side beef? Which one of the Welsh crew is 2pac?

and in this specific case (and the Cave is a very specific, nay unique case) how hard it will be if you use rubber knee pads, or not.

It's not really unique - see wheel of life cave. Lord knows what they do for a guide for that place. (Plus Rifle/Maple etc if you allow route comparison - they're fairly pad specific from what I've heard)

I've no problem with people using kneepads to break new ground (i.e. new moves) - Doylo has just done exactly that on his Tramps Tea Party. But in the Cave there ain't much left except the mega link ups. We can either wait for some wonder kid to come along with a next level of fitness and strength (shame Liam Desroy gave up he might have fitted the bill) or we just accept that a yard dog strapped up in rubber will climb those big challenges at a much lower grade.

Pads being ok for new problems but not established ones?  Or maybe it's that they're cool when your mates use them but not when raiders come along with them?
What's that on Caff's leg at 2:10?



I wouldn't worry too much about something like the in hell - clyde link, I'd be surprised if there's a no hander there, unless there's something up of the first part of bonnie/clyde. The LF ramp is a pretty obvious place for one to be honest, as soon as Twyford mentioned a knee on LF to me back in Spring that's how I presumed it would work (she was actually referring to the low one which you can't pin on me)

I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?

Gaz didn't seem bothered. In fact "I must admit I like my knee bar". That was before he saw the video though. I hope he's not angry, he could definitely beat me up.
Didn't Dan say earlier in this thread that Malc used pads to full effect on something hard at dumby recently?

[Paul B]

When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.

I can see the same becoming true of pads when other manufacturers get in the game (or even using a bit of DIY).

I do wonder where the bounds of acceptability are with this; I used pads on a route last year where my knee didn't fit, to get it to work I rolled up two knee supports and taped them on effectively lengthening my lower leg, back around?

If people start putting ridges on pads (Madrock perhaps), is that ok? ...certainly if someone fashioned a rubber hook on a kneepad I doubt people would be so keen to embrace 'change'.

I don't think I'm arguing against pads with this though, knees combined with pads are inevitable. Its more a shame that on this relatively small isle there happens to be a hands-off rest in one of the best* power endurance problems we have (had).

(*highly subjective)

[Pantontino]

Given that a few people have commented that some of these kneebars have already been used to some extent or are useable without pads, are you going to assume in the guidebook grade that the "average climber" isn't good enough to use any of them (it reads as though the "with pads" grade will be secondary), pad or no? I guess if so all that effectively means is that you're preserving a historical picture of the cave as it was...

Not 'good enough', rather that they don't fit, or would prefer to climb the problem sans pad/bareback etc. Obviously I have expressed some personal views here but I will endeavour to represent the grade info in a non judgemental manner in the guide. People can make up their own minds about how they want to climb these problems (I anticipate a question now, i.e.: Which grade is given the most prominence? My answer: I'm not sure as we haven't done that chapter of the guide yet.)

I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?

I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?

From the position of the dispassionate observer, that's not how this thread has read to me at all. Your choosing to use the argument reads, to be honest, like a way to try and turn this into an "us and them" argument, which always makes it easier to reinforce your views at the expense of theirs.

Context is, as always, everything. The Cave has a long history of being dissed and conveniently disregarded. Strange given that it contains one of the highest concentrations of hard climbing in the UK. That said, maybe you are right and I am misreading the sentiment in some of these postings. I am injured and pretty pissed off/frustrated at the moment.

[Pantontino]

I can't help feeling that there is a touch of schadenfreude here - all those big number link up problems in the Cave have put a few people's noses out of joint. Maybe you all see this as just desserts, a come uppance long in the coming?

I guess it puts all those uppity Welsh climbers back in their place, I mean who did they think they were kidding? Also, who did Gaz or Malc or Jamie Cassidy or Ben Bransby think they were kidding?

I think you might have a worse impression of us than we have of you....

Apologies Bonjoy, I guess I'm just a bit grumpy at the moment.

[Pantontino]

It's not really unique - see wheel of life cave. Lord knows what they do for a guide for that place. (Plus Rifle/Maple etc if you allow route comparison - they're fairly pad specific from what I've heard)

The fact that you have to go to the other side of the world to find a comparison reinforces my belief that it is at the very least 'quite unique' Also check this thread: [url]http://www.8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread.aspx?ObjectId=25294&ObjectClass=CLS_UserNewsComment&CountryCode=GLOBAL[/url "James did not use knee pads as Dai koyamada did not use them when he put up the original line."]

Pads being ok for new problems but not established ones?  Or maybe it's that they're cool when your mates use them but not when raiders come along with them?

The big difference is that you are just bringing old established test pieces down to your level. He is establishing an entirely new piece of climbing (real creativity), and it is not in the Cave either.

What's that on Caff's leg at 2:10?

I'm sure he was just trying it out to see what all the fuss is about...

[Pantontino]

When you learn how to use shoes well you can really cheat with them.

I can see the same becoming true of pads when other manufacturers get in the game (or even using a bit of DIY).

I do wonder where the bounds of acceptability are with this; I used pads on a route last year where my knee didn't fit, to get it to work I rolled up two knee supports and taped them on effectively lengthening my lower leg, back around?

If people start putting ridges on pads (Madrock perhaps), is that ok? ...certainly if someone fashioned a rubber hook on a kneepad I doubt people would be so keen to embrace 'change'.

I don't think I'm arguing against pads with this though, knees combined with pads are inevitable. Its more a shame that on this relatively small isle there happens to be a hands-off rest in one of the best* power endurance problems we have (had).

(*highly subjective)

 Well said Paul.

[a dense loner]

I'm sorry Nemo and Carlisle, I've just read u saying that knee pads are part and parcel of climbing and u can choose not to use them if u wish but if u do be under no illusion that ure climbing eliminates. Unfortunately I choose to climb as god intended, with chalk on my hands sticky rubber on my feet and the wind beneath my wings. I don't want to buy a knee pad, nor do I imagine do 98 out of 100 other people I would ask if only they'd speak to me. The cave is a very specific place like dan says, the comparisons with Spanish routes are just mind blowing. Like I've said problems should and have been graded for joe average, if Si wants to put an addendum for out of the ordinary ascents then that's his choice. Every one knows stuff is easier with pads or there wouldnt be such a fuss about them. If I were u dan i'd go easy on the cave, I wouldn't want to completely piss off another nation or nx yr you'll have to start bouldering in fairhead.
I can't remember who made the HMC comment but if ure alluding to WOL, it was climbed by dai, in shorts. Blue if I remember correctly