[Stu Littlefair]

I wasn't ranting in people's faces about it (like I am now) but I did say a long time ago that the obvious solution was to use split grades for the Cave. All that has happened since then is that my opinion has hardened.

Hardened to what? Just using split grades in the cave would be fine if that's what you want to do. Especially as this is a bit different to simple eliminates and more akin to making the cave problems really morpho.

It's all this talk about knee bars being 'bad style' (i.e dissaproved of), and saying folk are 'kidding themselves' when they've kidded nobody and have video evidence and saying the cave has been 'ruined' that seems weird to us pro-padders.

[lmarenzi]

Doylo

Spot on, Kings of Sontero. Didn't realise it had got that grade, in the video it looked easy with the knee pad 

[Doylo]

Doylo

Spot on, Kings of Sontero. Didn't realise it had got that grade, in the video it looked easy with the knee pad 

DG for ya!

[Nemo]

"To me it's as simple as that. You like pads, you use pads. You don't like them, you don't use them.  Am I being too trivial?" - Nibile

If you're not climbing cutting edge stuff and don't care about climbing news, history etc then no climbing ethics matter much as long as you're not damaging anything.  But top end climbing is a sport / game and it has rules whether we like it or not.  If kneepads are "valid" then Ondra made the second ascent of Chilam Balam.  If not, he didn't.   So yeah, this stuff matters (to the same extent that the rules of any sport / game matter.) 

"This is about Bouldering, in the UK." - Jack.G

The basic rules as to what constitutes free climbing need to be the same everywhere and on both routes and boulders.  You can try and have different rules to everyone else if you like, but it will be a farce - everyone outside the UK will just say you're climbing eliminates.

"certainly if someone fashioned a rubber hook on a kneepad I doubt people would be so keen to embrace change" - Paul B

To me, this is the substance of this debate.  There clearly is going to have to be a line drawn at some point as to what additional paraphernalia is acceptable (and Paul's example is way better than the one I gave before.)  Quite where this line is drawn is probably going to be decided for the most part by those at the cutting edge - Ondra etc - though no doubt, this thread is only a preview of the arguments to come (imagine this thread on 8a.nu...)  At a guess, any kind of hook will be way over the line and ridges will be a bit of a grey area.  But arguing about knee pads which in various forms have been widely used outside the UK for decades does kind of seem like pissing in the wind.  If it was decided they weren't "valid", you'd have to rewrite a whole stack of climbing history.  It wouldn't bother me if that's what everyone agreed to, but it just isn't going to happen. 

[Stu Littlefair]

With the tor, bens roof has been kept at 7c+ has it not...

We like to take our time over grade changes in the peak - it allows as many people to pad their CVs with soft touches as possible. I don't expect it to stay there, and nor does anyone else I know.

...how many people have took a reduced grade for Mecca while wearing pads? If they don't help why would ned ave chosen to put the kneepad in n posed giving 2thumbs up for the camera while laughing for about half an hr.

Probably as many as think it's a reduced grade now. Obviously the kneebars help, but do they make it a grade easier? I dunno, I've not done it with pads. Mawson was all for giving it 8b, but then spent the whole day failing to get to the kneebar and he doesn't do that on a lot of 8bs...

[andy_e]

What governing body will I be reported to for not following the "rules"?

[Nemo]

The "governing body" is effectively public opinion and media coverage of valid ascents.  If you think climbing doesn't have rules, try top roping Echo Wall with 10 rest points - then report it as the second ascent and see what happens.

[Pantontino]

I wasn't ranting in people's faces about it (like I am now) but I did say a long time ago that the obvious solution was to use split grades for the Cave. All that has happened since then is that my opinion has hardened.

Hardened to what? Just using split grades in the cave would be fine if that's what you want to do. Especially as this is a bit different to simple eliminates and more akin to making the cave problems really morpho.

It's all this talk about knee bars being 'bad style' (i.e dissaproved of), and saying folk are 'kidding themselves' when they've kidded nobody and have video evidence and saying the cave has been 'ruined' that seems weird to us pro-padders.

I'm resisting the temptation to argue with you further (especially as you didn't have the good grace to accept that Alex bringing up WOL was an own goal - it still is an own goal that seriously undermines the credibility of your stance in this debate, by the way.)...

Instead, let's focus on the positive:

At least we can agree that split grades for the cave are a solution that will allow both sides to be (relatively speaking) happy. I've already said that I would not drag my own opinions into how the info is presented in the guide.

I have to wear two hats here - one is just me and how I feel about the way climbing has changed in the Cave, the other is me as a guide editor trying to appease both sides of what has become a rather entrenched argument.

If foreign visitors think the split grade is laughable - so what, I'm not going to lose much sleep over that. They can take the lower pad grade, and those who wish to go bareback can take the higher sans pad grade. Sure, there will be anomalies, but there always has been, even with just one 'catch all' grade.

[tomtom]

Wow. 14 pages (on my PC) of going round and round in circles.

Is this UKB's tipping point into UKC style doom...?

[dave]

Or another solution to the problem is just to forget this ludicrous notion of "taking" a grade. You don't take a grade, you climb a problem. We don't grade ascents, we grade problems for the easiest method.

Hence if I go out and climb a 7b in terrible conditions, I don't "take" a 7c, what I did was a 7b in bad nick. Similarly if go and solo a geared E1 I don't "take" an E3", I just soloed an E1.

Kneepars aren't going to disappear so just fucking deal with it. If you do a problem graded at 7c assuming a kneepad, but you don't have one okr don't want to use one, then suck it in, you've just done a 7c, you're not "taking" an 8a, just enjoy your climbing, nobody is handing medals out. Tough shit if you found it harder. Similary if you find a kneebar on and 8a and it feels 7b+ then good on you, you know how hard it was for you.

The final thing I'll say is lets not overemphasise how much effect these kneebars have. Barrows' one in the cave looks a ballache to get into and I'd be shitting myself taking both hands off there. Have we forgot about that lass who broke her back when a pullup bar broke? Is a kneebars that take 4 moves to climb into and no free lunch. Similarly the kneebar on bens roof, yeah you can take both hands off but whats the fucking point, its about 4 moves into the problem, not even I am pumped by that point.

Split grades in the cave? Would look even more ridiculous than giving combined V/font grades. Lets not turn our bouldering into a laughing stock.

[Stu Littlefair]

I'm resisting the temptation to argue with you further (especially as you didn't have the good grace to accept that Alex bringing up WOL was an own goal - it still is an own goal that seriously undermines the credibility of your stance in this debate, by the way.)...

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to understand if you think the use of pads is just an administrative headache for guideboook writers or if you really believe that people "shouldn't" climb with pads.

As for not accepting that  WOL undermines the credibility of my stance I simply don't see that it does. All it proves is that other people are having the same debate. I've never claimed that no-one believes pads are an issue, so how does this affect the credibility of my argument? I'm genuinely asking, BTW, not just being argumentative.

My point is that using kneepads is as fine as any other piece of kit, that most of the world sees things this way and that in time it'll be the norm, so you might as well accept it. I've never argued that doing so is pain free, or universally accepted.

[Dave Flanagan]

Or another solution to the problem is just to forget this ludicrous notion of "taking" a grade. You don't take a grade, you climb a problem. We don't grade ascents, we grade problems for the easiest method.

+ 1 million.

[nodder]

Hence if I go out and climb a 7b in terrible conditions, I don't "take" a 7c, what I did was a 7b in bad nick. Similarly if go and solo a geared E1 I don't "take" an E3", I just soloed an E1.

Kneepars aren't going to disappear so just fucking deal with it. If you do a problem graded at 7c assuming a kneepad, but you don't have one okr don't want to use one, then suck it in, you've just done a 7c, you're not "taking" an 8a, just enjoy your climbing, nobody is handing medals out. Tough shit if you found it harder. Similary if you find a kneebar on and 8a and it feels 7b+ then good on you, you know how hard it was for you.

None of this will work I tried variations of all these arguments before when I was originally on your side.  Your convincing me though.

[Stubbs]

Worth posting this to check out the kneebars being discussed on WoL; they aren't exactly marginal smears! 

[ducko]

Next debate all link ups in the cave should be graded as routes 

[ferret]

I have a pad, it stays in my climbing bag and I try and use it when ever I see a potential opportunity. The amount of times it makes any kind of significant difference (like nige and dan said) is hardly ever. There are going to be areas like Hueco, Rifle, The Cave etc where there are all sorts of large features that are impossible to use as handholds but make potentially great knee bars. Lets face it 99% of the rock climbing on this planet is not like this and to infer that pads are going to be a game changer in climbing based on what somebody did in The Cave is unrealistic.

I managed a long term project this year that revolves around a (crucial for most) knee bar. I had dismissed doing it for a time because my leg was too short for the knee bar. I eventually did it with a pad with a folded up wash flannel underneath it gaffer taped to my leg to make it long enough. If i hadn't been able to do this I would have never climbed the problem, as it would have been much harder, so I agree with the idea of splitgrading for morpho kneebars. I would however say this for any really morphologically specific move or sequence where it is going to drastically effect the grade (these again are pretty rare) and this has nothing to do with the use of pads or not.

Pantontino, I'm not sure this has anything to do with people secretly harbouring negativity towards The Cave and Welsh climbers in general.
Taking 3 or 4 sections of climbing and link them together in 10 different ways is not as impressive as climbing 10 completely independent problems (of the same grade) thats just obvious, and I'm sure many peoples opinions reflect this.
The cave has some really unique and interesting climbing along with some cool and finger friendly holds. It also is dirty, covered in graffiti, has artificial holds and sometimes arbitrary starts and/or finishes, obviously some people are also gonna be dismisive of this.

Good debate over a stupid topic, love the attack poodle stuff.

Can we have a knee pad emoticon 

[Nibile]

How can someone decide that kneepads are not allowed? Who has the right to do so and hope to be obeyed?
I don't like them but I'd never argue about the validity of a padded ascent of a route or problem. I think that even for cutting edge climbers and media whores, the simplest and only rule is to honestly say how you climbed the route or problem, then everyone will draw their conclusions. Then, if someone cheats on the grades that's an entirely different thing.

[a dense loner]

Dave what are u talking about? Have we forgot the girl who fell off a pull up bar? What? Wtf? Have we forgot the guy who cut off his arm in a crack? What do u mean lee? Well nothing.
As nibs said

[lagerstarfish]

so the kneepads thing is more than just a fashion issue for some people?

[tomtom]

so the kneepads thing is more than just a fashion issue for some people?

I'm waiting until they are available in glitter effect pink - to go with the rest of my climbing outfit. I was going to get blue, but Stallioni beat be to it. The cad.

Anyway, Lagers, I do hope you cleaned all the muck off your knee pads when you use them on slabs - we wouldnt want the rock to get polished would we!

[Paul B]

Oh yes it is.
If a knee hold isn't useful without a pad then you are effectively eliminating it. Like if you force people to wear socks instead of rockshoes you would be effectively eliminating a lot of footholds.

This is VERY different to what you suggested in your earlier post. Yes, if pads were considered a bridge too far then effectively those knee holds wouldn't be useful in the same way as crimps/slopers/cracks where we can't gain useful purchase are 'eliminated' in a natural manner. What's your point here?

Nobody is 'eliminating' knees, you were born with those. Its the use of additional technology that is questionable (debatable?) and as I pointed out, a big grey area for acceptability going forward. We've already established that using EVERY available piece of tech isn't the future, Petejh pointed this out pages ago.

Would you be happy to find Steve Mac bat-hanging from two skyhooks taped to his anasazis at Malham one day? This is obviously a flippant and extreme (ly stupid) example but the point is some things are made easier by using new technology and not all of it would be deemed acceptable.

[andy_e]

Or another solution to the problem is just to forget this ludicrous notion of "taking" a grade. You don't take a grade, you climb a problem. We don't grade ascents, we grade problems for the easiest method.

+ 1 million.

+ another couple of.million.

[petejh]

Or another solution to the problem is just to forget this ludicrous notion of "taking" a grade. You don't take a grade, you climb a problem. We don't grade ascents, we grade problems for the easiest method.

That's not the full story though is it. We grade them (problems, sport routes, trad routes, ice climbs, mountains) for the easiest method within loose unwritten 'rules' of what's acceptable and what's not. To coin a popular phrase from this thread - I wish people could just accept this is the way it's always been and move on (in this case 'move on' to a lengthy period of experimentation with both styles to see what seems to work best for 3D style cave bouldering, except we're only talking about one venue in the UK and one in Aus).

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to understand if you think the use of pads is just an administrative headache for guideboook writers or if you really believe that people "shouldn't" climb with pads.
..
My point is that using kneepads is as fine as any other piece of kit, that most of the world sees things this way and that in time it'll be the norm, so you might as well accept it. I've never argued that doing so is pain free, or universally accepted.

Nobody on this thread has ever said that people 'shouldn't' climb with pads. That's crystal clear. As Nibble said - how could you. I certainly don't think people 'shouldn't' use them.  Seems to be a case of people getting offended when other people (more than you originally thought perhaps?) don't agree with Alex's assertions that pads in the cave are 'rad and cool'. I think bareback/padless on Director's Cut and all the other probs is a way radder and cooler thing to aspire to, no offense. That seems to offend you and make you think people are out to stop other people doing what they want, I can't understand why (unless you're the UK importer of stealth pads. btw not very 'stealthy' are they). It doesn't matter much what I think, the majority will either take to pads on those 3D cave probs or they won't, we'll know in a few years.

[a dense loner]

No we don't, this is not some nonsense idyllic world. Problems are graded comparable to other problems, they are a guide as to how well person x is climbing. The number combined with the letter after it is just a guide nothing more, but it is a guide. I have said for a long long time, before some of u were born, how good it would be to not have grades and give every problem a name, for example the terrace. Then if someone had said they climbed the terrace I would be able to rationalise the ascent in my own mind, which is what I do anyway.
Dave said if u climb a problem graded 7c with a knee pad u just suck it in if u haven't got one, this is in no way the same as turning up and doing a 7c this is a grade for an ascent based on wearing a knee pad. My beef here wil be that ascents are graded for knee pads, that is not how most people climb. The more realistic alternative would be what has always been in place, and knee pads mentioned when used. They are not an everyday piece of equipment as some people would have me believing.
As an aside aren't the new putters getting banned in golf? U know the ones I mean? The ones that make putting easier due to different technologies being used, extending the size of the shaft, weighting it on the chin and so on, but wait its still a club.

[abarro81]

My beef here wil be that ascents are graded for knee pads, that is not how most people climb. ...They are not an everyday piece of equipment as some people would have me believing.

That's currently true for UK boulderers. Might not be in the near future though - as Stu said, in the UK sport scene they're becoming standard, and 90% of American sport climbers I've met have had them.