[Pantontino]

On the plus side people wil have more time to discuss their various diets and how they're not feeling too well at the moment.

Comedy genius as ever

[Fiend]

I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees 

The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.

Ahem....

Don't break your arm patting your own back.

In tomtom's favour, his was actually a deliberate joke!

[Fiend]

seeing a classic benchmark problem like Director’s Cut broken down in this way is gutting. It just seems wrong on so many levels.

Why?? I'm genuinely curious.

In the new guide (due out next year) certain cave problems will be described with two grades: one for a traditional ascent and one for those who are wearing rubber kneepads, and can get them to work (a 6ft tall climber has this option). On the page these two snippets of info will be tiny – I see no reason not to mention the differing grade assessments, especially when the knee-padded climbing experience is not available to the many shorter or medium build climbers.

seems very sensible.

[nodder]

So which grade do you take if you use the kneebars but no rubber?

Very unlikely to happen - that person (should they exist) can take whatever grade they like.

The reason its unlikely to happen is not because its impossible but because you would be making the problem artificially more difficult by choosing not to use available equipment.  Like if you campus the whole thing do you get 8C+?  I don't see it as any different to any other morpho problem. 

[Nigel]

In reply to Mr Panton RE the Cave, totally agree that this is overblown, given that as you rightly say only tall climbers can get them in, as opposed to any old Larry with a kneepad. With this in mind, surely just a short note along the lines of "all problems are easier for lanky pricks" would suffice? This would apply throughout the guide too - could go on front cover? Plus this solution surely removes everyone's kneepad angst; after all, doesn't everyone already hate tall people???? Perhaps you could have a frontispiece consisting of mugshots of tall people who deserve to be barracked if seen in the street? Name suggestions?

[nodder]

How tall is TALL?

[a dense loner]

Barrows, nodders, willackers to start with, Doylo too come to think of it.

[Fiend]

Somehow dense's presence alone encourages a reasonable and fair conclusion for all concerned 

[Jack.G]

What happens if some stumpy finds a kneebar in the cave that medium to tall folks cant fit? People are armed with pads and hunting out the potential it seems, it may happen.

What about a grade range for each problem, with matrix for short/med/lank kneecap-to-toe measurements, and a weighting factor for time spent bat-hanging.

Shoe-horning this into the grading system is a bit ridiculous, no?

[abarro81]

In reply to Mr Panton RE the Cave, totally agree that this is overblown, given that as you rightly say only tall climbers can get them in, as opposed to any old Larry with a kneepad.

Not quite true for all the knees - the one low down on LF was shown to me by Twyford who apparently got it from Caff. There's one coming over the arch on pilgrim which I thought I'd found until Stu told me that's his method. My greenheart crux sequence is apparently similar to Robins'...

Also the cave knee bars only really work with proper rubber pads

Not all of them - see above. Think LF, pilgrim and greenheart have all been done using knees but not pads.

In the new guide (due out next year) certain cave problems will be described with two grades: one for a traditional ascent and one for those who are wearing rubber kneepads, and can get them to work

What happens when someone (e.g. Caff) does DC using a pad for the move on LF but not using the TC knee? Does he have to take the pad grade    (not that he'd care what grade it gets in the guide no doubt). Perhaps better to ignore the reference to the pad and say "Director's Cut 8B: LF into Halfway. There are a variety of knees only useable by those with long legs which make the problem more like soft 8A+"

Perhaps you could have a frontispiece consisting of mugshots of tall people who deserve to be barracked if seen in the street?

A straw poll of climbers at Raven Tor this weekend showed that 75% of climbers had kneepads. Can't argue with facts.

And I have enough to go round 

[metal arms]

What happens if some stumpy finds a kneebar in the cave that medium to tall folks cant fit? People are armed with pads and hunting out the potential it seems, it may happen.

What about a grade range for each problem, with matrix for short/med/lank kneecap-to-toe measurements, and a weighting factor for time spent bat-hanging.

Pigeon-holing this into a grading system is a bit ridiculous, no?

The whole topic's a bit ridiculous.

N.B.  Metal Arms has done nothing in the cave, or indeed any hard grade problem or route, anywhere, ever.  Nor does he own a knee-pad.  Related?  Possibly...

[SA Chris]

I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees 

The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.

Ahem....

Don't break your arm patting your own back.

In tomtom's favour, his was actually a deliberate joke!

I suspected as much.

[gme]

Don't worry short people i have a new type of knee pad coming out on the market which by using stealth rubber shims can increase your lower leg length by up to 100mm in 5mm increments. Easy to adjust even halfway along a problem or up a route by simply hanging from one knee bar and adding or reducing the size of the other pad using the shims carried in our specially designed pouch.

We are also working with La sportive on a platform sole using the same principle that will, in conjunction with the above pad, add over 250mm to your height.

Anyone interested go to

www.howweakpeopleruinedclimbing.com

[tomtom]

How tall is TALL?

SCIENCE ALERT.

OK, if we take the average height of the UK male population to be

1.75m, with a SE/SD of 0.11 - we could have a stab at defining tall people as being those outside of the mean height + the SD, meaning you are tall if you are greater than 1.86m.

At 6'3" I am 1.9m - so officially tall. Up yours hobbits

For the those wanting the English units, the 'Tall' threshold is 6'1" (and a little bit)

( http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2005/wp29grsp/HR-04-14e.pdf )

[tomtom]

I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees 

The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.

Ahem....

Don't break your arm patting your own back.

In tomtom's favour, his was actually a deliberate joke!

I suspected as much.

The original use of Knee-jerk was Serpico's pun - I wouldnt want to take credit for another mans punditry...

[nodder]

Having scientifically measured 3 people in the wall right now,

181 cm tall with a floor to knee of 57.5 cm
184 cm tall with a floor to knee of 55 cm
174 cm tall with a floor to knee of 56 cm

So first of all at 5 foot 11 I am denying being tall,
Second of all the whole height thing is bullshit it depends on your lower leg.

Not sure what I am trying to prove here?
 

[slackline]

SCIENCE ALERT.

OK, if we take the average height of the UK male population to be

1.75m, with a SE/SD of 0.11 - we could have a stab at defining tall people as being those outside of the mean height + the SD, meaning you are tall if you are greater than 1.86m.

<pedant>
Standard E (of the Mean) = SD / sqrt(n) and is useful for knowing how accurate a point estimate such as the mean is and not the amount of variation observed within a given sample.

( http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2005/wp29grsp/HR-04-14e.pdf )

They quote SE's so you'd need to know what sample size they used in order to determine the standard deviation (SD = SE *  sqrt(n)).
</pedant>

[Pantontino]

seeing a classic benchmark problem like Director’s Cut broken down in this way is gutting. It just seems wrong on so many levels.

Why?? I'm genuinely curious.

As Stu/Dan said earlier, it's an important problem. Even though I've got no chance of doing it (even wearing my 2020 magnetic rubber suit) I am glad it exists. I'd got used to it being there, and watching the top Cave boys (Ding Dong, Danny Cattell, Gaz, Pete etc) on it has inspired me to go off and try a bit harder. Watching that footage of Alex left me with a bad feeling - it didn't inspire me one iota.

I know this is an emotional response, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid. The way we feel matters just as much as the way we think.

[nodder]

Bottom line is the cave used to be cool and now its wank. 

[Doylo]

You can do the kneebars without pads it's just harder. When I first did Trigger Cut I kneebarred to get the shothole with a towel round my knee. However For the new sequence where you do all the tricky moves off a knee this probably wouldn't work. And I object to being described as tall as Barrows and newman. If I could have done my pill box traverse with my feet on the floor it wouldn't have take me 40 days!

[a dense loner]

If we replace the word "cool" with "wank" then balance is restored in the world. Ure not half an inch taller than me nodders, u measure to the top of your head!
The way ure feeling about Alex now Chris is just the way that us normal folk have thought about all you lot down the yrs 
Tall people are tall and midgets have genetic mong strength, that's just the way it is

[tomtom]

Wank is the new Cool and Tall is the new Short

[nodder]

yep 181 cm checked thrice and validated by 2 others I can provide video evidence if I really have too

[Doylo]

Tall people are tall and midgets have genetic mong strength, that's just the way it is

Where does that leave you then Bonse? 

[Richie Crouch]

I guess I sneak into tall and weak then. Quite a cool video I thought but if I tried it in future I'd just use the old methods (despite having the lanky shins to cram in those knees) to get the satisfaction/challenge of trying it the hard way. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to anyone else!

Waiting for in hell and in life to get the barrows treatment now!