UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: Oldmanmatt on March 15, 2016, 03:49:05 pm
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What's the UKB view on this?
http://eveningsends.com/lifestyles-of-the-rich-and-famous/
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Good read.
Put it here though?
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,20046.225.html
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I agree.
The latest South Park season has revolved around ads, how they've infiltrated our society to the point we don't recognise them anymore. South Park are always on point.
The rise of instagram, social media is a good/ bad thing. It's good as it gives climbers a quick way of knowing what's been cleaned/ done/ beta and that long kick up the arse needed to venture out. I'm guilty as the next, having climbed 6 years at Caley and never once gone to West Chevin. Dan Turner posted a picture on social media of a great looking line and hey, Will and I were down there the next evening enjoying a few climbs. Have we become less adventurous? I'm pretty sure 'To me to you' at Brimham has never been so popular, yet in the past couple months it's had a flurry of ascents thanks to people posting pictures and beta on social media. Or maybe it was always as popular before instagram, just no one would know when it had last been climbed.
However, I agree with Puccio's sentiments. Thousands of 'likes' for the most trivial bollocks must be frustrating for her. Then again, don't hate the player, hate the game. And the game has changed.
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I met [well known Australian climber] on a UK tour in 1983. Says he: "I couldn't believe how shit [well known English climber] was when I saw him actually climb. He's all over the magazines".
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What's the UKB view on this?
http://eveningsends.com/lifestyles-of-the-rich-and-famous/
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I love the way that Pooch ends her tirade against publicity and media with a list of her sponsors and their hashtags.
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If it's that lengthy tirade about her seeking out problems that don't suit and not climbing for the grade it's the biggest load of bollocks I've ever heard.
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I think the article is complete bollocks, frankly. Who are all these people who are allegedly becoming famous sponsored climbers without actually climbing anything of note? Yes, there is one person – whom he doesn’t name in the article but does link to an article with her name in – who is well known for being only fairly good at climbing whilst also being good looking and very good at self-marketing. I genuinely don’t know who the numerous others are supposed to be.
Sure, the Austrian state chooses to fund and support athletes in utterly obscure, minority interest mountain-related sports – for entirely rational reasons because their national economy is more or less completely dependent on having a high profile in mountain-related sports. Whereas the American economy isn’t and their government doesn’t. And that’s fortunate for the Austrian athletes and tough for genuinely world class American athletes like Pooch. But nobody is forcing those American athletes to pursue careers in a sport where they know in advance that there is basically no money to be made.
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I met [well known Australian climber] on a UK tour in 1983. Says he: "I couldn't believe how shit [well known English climber] was when I saw him actually climb. He's all over the magazines".
Quite. Twas always thus - in the good old days fame depended on being good at getting into magazine editors' cliques, now it depends on being good at social media. Neither is necessarily directly correlated with climbing ability.
And [well known English climber] did eventually manage to get his level of actual achievement to match his level of self-belief.
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I don't really understand Puccio's point but I enjoyed the Bisharat article, you can go relatively far if you know how to use social media.
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If it's that lengthy tirade about her seeking out problems that don't suit and not climbing for the grade it's the biggest load of bollocks I've ever heard.
You have people read the Internet to you? :clown:
Alex Puccio's Instagram post is cited but its a longer article by Andrew Bisharat that Matt has linked to.
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Ha! 'kinell
I don't think Puccio's post is the main topic - that would overlook the rest of the article.
I suppose if you're climbing for any reason other than internal motivation/internal reward then you're taking part in a popularity contest, with all the bullshit lack of meritocracy that comes with trying to appeal to a wide audience of nobodies.
Truly cutting edge climbers will probably always be recognised as such by their peers, and average climbers who showboat themselves will also be recognised as such.
Simple feelgood solution - out the social media big hitters by creating a general consensus of 'climbing waddage' parameters to column inch worthiness: e.g. onsight/redpoint grade and other more nuanced stuff.
Then place climbers on Scott Semple's 'grid of worthy/unworthiness'. Simple. :worms:
(edit) to give some context, from before social media really took off: http://climbingnarc.com/2010/04/being-sponsored-is-a-sin/
(I watched Scott's talk in Banff that night, bit of an icy atmosphere!)
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Is the article about Grimer? ;)
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The point of the article is that there are people who aren't genuinely great at climbing getting more fame/money than people who are. With one possible exceptionI don't know who these alleged people are, and nobody seems to want to name any.
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"Is Marketing Climbing Now More Important Than Actual Climbing?" - With regards to climbing media (and sponsorships) of course, why would it be any other way?
For a long time, the climbers who were cutting edge were the ones who went out and made names for themselves by actually pushing the limits—through new routes and first ascents. Media and sponsorships followed as a result, but the climbing really was their primary focus.
Surely that's all that needs to be said. Make a name for yourself, get sponsored. Your value to the sponsor is simply how well you sell their product, there's no actual reason why this must correlate with ability. What a backward sport this climbing is.
:offtopic: Am I the only one who really doesn't want climbing to be in the olympics?
edit: Muenchener already covered this.
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Then again...
That person (the moderately good one, that everyone suspects the Pooch rant is all about (lets ignore the teeny bopper that's directly challenging her title)) actually seems to be the sixth best boulderer (comp) in the US at present and given the participation population in the US; that's not bad.
And, from the "Brand" point of view, it's not ever going to be about "the best", the sponsors want the faces that will best sell their product/lifestyle.
That could never be just the topdogs, the same four or five faces selling everything.
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What's the UKB view on this?
http://eveningsends.com/lifestyles-of-the-rich-and-famous/
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I love the way that Pooch ends her tirade against publicity and media with a list of her sponsors and their hashtags.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BCfxb-ppa4D/
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more accomplished climbers who choose to fly below the radar.
They presumably don't have a problem, since it's their choice. The people who might legitimately have a problem are the genuinely world class climbers who are striving to be picked up by the radar but failing. If they exist.
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As an aside, who's Andrew Bisharat?
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the sponsors want the faces that will best sell their product/lifestyle.
Not climbing but another 'lifestyle' sport, surfing, where the top female Brazilian surfer wasn't considered pretty enough to get full sponsorship (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35663889).
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As an aside, who's Andrew Bisharat?
A version of Grimer who says potayto not potahto
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As an aside, who's Andrew Bisharat?
http://andrewbisharat.com/
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Having just looked at that link to the surfer I'm not surprised, she's a fucking dog and I wouldn't be buying any sex wax she advertised
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Having just looked at that link to the surfer I'm not surprised, she's a fucking dog and I wouldn't be buying any sex wax she advertised
I do hope you're joking
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Don't understand why people moan about lack of sponsorship in climbing, if you want to make money in sport then decent in football/golf/tennis etc. Sponsorship is about return for the companies, and doing some eliminate arse scraping 8b then not telling anyone about it is probably less useful to twitter/facebook/instagram shares for them than looking good in a pair of hotpants.
Plus is the climbing market actually worth any money? Most of the Rab gear I see is on parents pushing kids on swings in the park..
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Exactly rich, I buy shitloads more kit than my kid. Pointless aiming it at her. Tell me you're not in marketing ;)
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:agree: with habrich's post by and large.
Muencher - no one will want to name names of Brits who might be examples of the stuff discussed in the article but I can PM you examples if you want. As mentioned in habrich's post, Emmett would be a prime example from days gone by. A global example would be Sasha DG - used to be good, has done fuck all for a long time now other than post crap on social media, probably still gets shit loads of attention. If I see a friend like one of those bullshit non-posts i die a little inside.
I suspect the difference between now and 5/10/20 years ago is just that its now more prevalent - instead of a few people building a profile rather than a ticklist nowadays everyone is instgramming photos of routes they did last year to make up for not having done anything recently
Rich d - the Bishrat article isnt really abiut sponsorship, more a general commentary. I fuess the pooch post is fairly sponsorship based though probably
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What sponsored lankatron said
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Tell me you're not in marketing ;)
nope, cant be arsed with all the facebook, instagram and twitter updates that has no doubt become part of the job.
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the sponsors want the faces that will best sell their product/lifestyle.
Not climbing but another 'lifestyle' sport, surfing, where the top female Brazilian surfer wasn't considered pretty enough to get full sponsorship (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35663889).
I watched that sometime ago.
I must be wired differently, because I think she's quite attractive.
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A global example would be Sasha DG - used to be good, has done fuck all for a long time now other than post crap on social media, probably still gets shit loads of attention. If I see a friend like one of those bullshit non-posts i die a little inside.
Yes but how we would we ever motivate without constant remainders to 'push our limits'.
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It was more fun when I got to read about new problems and routes in the regional breakdown in On the Edge, those morsels of information used to leave you hungry for more. The spraying, sandbagging, false modesty, fragile ego's that's always been the same, I'm not sure climbing or the humans doing it has changed but just the way it's piped into our 30 second attention spans. Anyway f&ck this I need to check FB, hang on a minute what was I saying, is that someone climbing barefoot oh well enough of that now yawn etc etc etc
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Interesting article, a good read BUT...
This has always gone on surely? The Internet just makes it lazy
Look at Jerry vs Mark Leach for example
Mark recently posted a photo of himself and Andy pollitt to Facebook with a caption along the lines of 'a legend with a book about tobe released, and a punter'.
Arguably Mark was the hardest climber of that generation, but was less interested in chasing the fame
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I don't really have a problem with all the Instagram bollocks at the top level. Its the market and it obviously gets results for the companies sponsoring the climbers or their marketing departments wouldn't keep pushing them to do it (I believe these companies have ways of tracking their "reach" and where their clicks are coming from?)
What gets me is how insipid it all is. Climbing seems to have become so much more clean. All of these posts on social media are so self affirming and happy-clappy. Riddled with these ridiculously perky hashtags. Its like the fucking teletubbies are running the accounts. The worst thing about this is that it has bled into mainstream climbing culture such that there are loads of people doing it now. Everyone takes themselves so seriously and its only going to get worse. These people coming to the start of their adulthood now are practically social media natives. They have never experienced life without the narcissism that social media propagates.
The rise of instagram, social media is a good/ bad thing. It's good as it gives climbers a quick way of knowing what's been cleaned/ done/ beta and that long kick up the arse needed to venture out. I'm guilty as the next, having climbed 6 years at Caley and never once gone to West Chevin. Dan Turner posted a picture on social media of a great looking line and hey, Will and I were down there the next evening enjoying a few climbs. Have we become less adventurous? I'm pretty sure 'To me to you' at Brimham has never been so popular, yet in the past couple months it's had a flurry of ascents thanks to people posting pictures and beta on social media. Or maybe it was always as popular before instagram, just no one would know when it had last been climbed.
This from Ben doesn't really fit with the Bisharat and Pooch posts, but it is probably brought to mind as we were moaning about it at the crag yesterday. Social media seems to home people in on a select number of problems, such that there are tonnes of things around the region of great apparent quality that are sadly neglected. It is a worrying fact that there are a growing number of young climbers out there who equate the absence of a high definition, multiple camera angle video of a problem with an absence of quality. It might be taking the logic a step too far but this might go a little way to explaining why The Joker is trashed and why Brownian Motion is practically unheard of (with the equally impressive arete to the left looking a bit grubby). Having stood under both, I know which one I'd rather put the effort into.
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As mentioned in habrich's post, Emmett would be a prime example from days gone by.
Christ, was it that obvious? In Tim's defence, I have been assured by people, that should know, that he is a genuinely world-class ice-climber.
He's definitely the one having the most fun
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A world-class ice climber?! :lol: Damned with faint praise!
That's like saying somebody's world-class at decorating.
Ice climbing reached its cutting edge about 25 years ago and everyone knows it (don't say Helmacken - a bolted sport-climbing-on-ice oddity)
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These people coming to the start of their adulthood now are practically social media natives. They have never experienced life without the narcissism that social media propagates.
You're seriously suggesting adolescents weren't narcissistic before social media? Get a grip.
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I'd say it's much more widespread now because of social media yes
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I'd say it's much more widespread now because of social media yes
Widespread narcissism? Sounds contagious.
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These people coming to the start of their adulthood now are practically social media natives. They have never experienced life without the narcissism that social media propagates.
You're seriously suggesting adolescents weren't narcissistic before social media? Get a grip.
At no point as a teenager did I or anybody I knew spend hours and hours sharing pictures of our own face in the hope that somebody else would "like" them.
It might be a trait that was always there in the background but it's now a hobby in its own right and the kids are masters of it.
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I don't really have a problem with all the Instagram bollocks at the top level. Its the market and it obviously gets results for the companies sponsoring the climbers or their marketing departments wouldn't keep pushing them to do it (I believe these companies have ways of tracking their "reach" and where their clicks are coming from?)
What gets me is how insipid it all is. Climbing seems to have become so much more clean. All of these posts on social media are so self affirming and happy-clappy. Riddled with these ridiculously perky hashtags. Its like the fucking teletubbies are running the accounts. The worst thing about this is that it has bled into mainstream climbing culture such that there are loads of people doing it now. Everyone takes themselves so seriously and its only going to get worse. These people coming to the start of their adulthood now are practically social media natives. They have never experienced life without the narcissism that social media propagates.
#oldgit
;)
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All very interesting.
The only thing that's changed is the immediacy and reach of the media - not anyone's actions or motivations.
In every sport, business, club, pub darts team etc... There are always people who self promote to an annoying degree for a variety of reasons from narcissism to £££. I bet 10k years ago around the camp fire there were grunts of discontent about how the grumpy small headed one was always telling every one he was the best hunter etc...
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I'd say it's much more widespread now because of social media yes
Widespread narcissism? Sounds contagious.
it is!
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I have seen examples of non-pros doing the whole tagging brands and hashtagging and posing topless and i do find it disheartening but also a bit funny. In some ways it is sad that lesser pros get a bigger slice of the pie but that is the nature of the sponsorship game. You are promoting a brand, that is a major part of your job. nothing in life is for free.
However, the plus side on all this is that does it in any way affect our own personal climbing experience? For me its a no. I never see these people at the crags, even when I'm bouldering on the grit and I'd be very surprised (and actually psyched) to see them at Cloggy or Gogarth. All of this sponsorship rubbish is so far removed from my own climbing that I dont let it bother me. As long as I can still do my own thing as I always have done then its fine if people want to hashtag brands onto their photos and pretend to be pros. I guess that is what could be meant by climbing being a broad church these days.
Its a bit sad but there will always be a core of 'true believers' who climb for the right reasons and unless over-caffeinated sugary drink company starts encouraging more of its athletes to wang bolts in where they dont belong then I dont think this will be affected. I can still enjoy a kick-about on the Pembroke campsite with my mates irrespective of what is going on in premier league football.
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I have seen examples of non-pros doing the whole tagging brands and hashtagging and posing topless and i do find it disheartening but also a bit funny. In some ways it is sad that lesser pros get a bigger slice of the pie but that is the nature of the sponsorship game. You are promoting a brand, that is a major part of your job. nothing in life is for free.
It's really good value money for the brands too as their 'ambassadors' do a fuck load of marketing for them for what appears to be a couple of shoes and some stickers.
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The grumpy small headed hunter would never have suggested he was the best at hunting, just that the others round the campfire weren't as good as they thought. If food did become scarce the first thing he'd have done was eat the sport climbers.
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All of this sponsorship rubbish is so far removed from my own climbing that I dont let it bother me.
:agree: to the extent that most news of 'cutting edge first ascents' or 'significant repeats' is of litte interest to me beyond a gap filler at work to relieve the tedium (theres only so much Linux stuff I can read).
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The grumpy small headed hunter would never have suggested he was the best at hunting, just that the others round the campfire weren't as good as they thought. If food did become scarce the first thing he'd have done was eat the sport climbers.
:D have a wad.
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Hadn't noticed this thread, but Puccio's rant, when it appeared on 8a.shit nearly had me throw the laptop out of the window. My Roman ancestors had a saying for almost anything, and in her case they would have said: "excusatio non petita accusatio manifesta". An unrequested excuse ("I could have claimed more big numbers") is a self accusation.
She's probably frustrated that someone else is getting more attention despite doing fuck all on rock? Welcome to planet Eart, Alex.
Whenever money and the need to get a sponsor enter into a person's climbing, usual rules that apply to climbing (matter-of-factness, hard climbs, etc.) go out of the window, and marketing rules enter.
Pretty, handsome, easy to sell, politically correct, these are the things that count. Compromise, compromise, compromise. You basically accept to forswear the truth. You can't say that a route is shit, because your sponsors would not like it. You can't say that you crushed it to atoms, you can't say that someone doesn't deserve a sponsorship, etc. We can't be friends with everyone and we shouldn't be.
Climbing, to me, is now dominated by hypocrisy.
Maybe, and I say maybe, if Pooch hadn't turned into a burly man she would appear more often on covers. But no one dares to say that. The hordes of worshippers that praise her efforts and return after the injury make me want to puke. I see the reality behind her transformation and I don't like it.
Maybe, and I say maybe, if modern wannabe hotshots were less prone to compromise, even sponsors would change their behaviour. People should be loyal to the sport's values.
This could also include to call out frauds and question why some people are sponsored or paid despite their poor results. And if one is dropped for this, he/she should be ready to give the finger to the sponsor and go back to a simpler life, that many generations of climbers have lived before.
Of course, if you want to have a personal trainer, a physio and a filming crew that always follow you, you will need money and compromises. In the marketing world, climbers cannot change the rules, they have to obey someone else's rules.
But despite everything, one will never be let down by reality. Climb big numbers, and the rest will follow. And if it doesn't, you'll have climbed big numbers and that's all that matters for "real" climbers.
Sport values and media and publicity values do not go hand in hand.
All these slick heroes that are always on the net, always hashtagging, always praising the beauty of nature, the freedom of climbing, are nothing more than puppets. They are less free than I am.
In my dreams a true climber is someone who gets to the place, does hard shit and leaves surrounded by women, but who's also ready to doss in a cave to remain true to his values. That is: Jerry.
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A world-class ice climber?! :lol: Damned with faint praise!
That's like saying somebody's world-class at decorating.
The pundit in question - yet another expat Brit - doesn't do faint praise, in fact is notable for his scathing opinion on grades and climbers. That said, he has a vested interest in bigging up ice climbing as he is one of the few in this town who participate.
I'll take your word for it. I did wonder.
Presumably something like this (https://www.instagram.com/p/BCRNZv1wKu3/) (also referenced in the comments under Bisharat's article) is fairly badass?
Yeah that's really badass in terms of soloing, mainly 'because it's soloing sketchy steep slightly unpredictable terrain' not because of super-hard cutting edge difficulty in itself (the routes get ascents every winter: they aren't that difficult - no ice climb is anymore, not like sport or hard trad is). I climbed 'French Reality and Day After Vacacions..' plus a couple others on the Stanley Headwall around 8 years ago and I'm fairly shit, did you not see my FB update..
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I have seen examples of non-pros doing the whole tagging brands and hashtagging and posing topless and i do find it disheartening but also a bit funny. In some ways it is sad that lesser pros get a bigger slice of the pie but that is the nature of the sponsorship game. You are promoting a brand, that is a major part of your job. nothing in life is for free.
It's really good value money for the brands too as their 'ambassadors' do a fuck load of marketing for them for what appears to be a couple of shoes and some stickers.
Is it though? How much does anyone take notice of what Sponsored heroes wear? I'm not about to buy a pair of 5.10 Moccasyms because Ned climbed 8B in them. Nor am I going to buy a pair of bright orange Marmot trousers because Mawson wears them. Sometimes I'll see a few people using gear that I think looks good/appropriate for what I want and if they are using them for the type of things Im keen for then I might take notice but apart from that it doesn't work on me.
Plus you gotta give them something to do in between training sessions! :P
In many ways with people getting sponsorship and being able to go climbing loads and never have to sit in an office I think "Good effort and Fair doos" - Its not necessarily something I'd want to do myself but I'm the chump who gets up at 6am every morning to do a relatively tedious job for 10 hours a day with 28 days holiday whilst John Crimpz bezzes around the world doing all those amazing routes I dream of. Granted, sometimes I think some of them are bellends but I encounter bellends in all walks of life.
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All of this sponsorship rubbish is so far removed from my own climbing that I dont let it bother me.
:agree: to the extent that most news of 'cutting edge first ascents' or 'significant repeats' is of litte interest to me beyond a gap filler at work to relieve the tedium (theres only so much Linux stuff I can read).
#Hijackalert: I don't believe Slackers wrote that, too many typo's and not liking Linux 'that' much?!. C'mon!
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I have seen examples of non-pros doing the whole tagging brands and hashtagging and posing topless and i do find it disheartening but also a bit funny. In some ways it is sad that lesser pros get a bigger slice of the pie but that is the nature of the sponsorship game. You are promoting a brand, that is a major part of your job. nothing in life is for free.
It's really good value money for the brands too as their 'ambassadors' do a fuck load of marketing for them for what appears to be a couple of shoes and some stickers.
Is it though? How much does anyone take notice of what Sponsored heroes wear? I'm not about to buy a pair of 5.10 Moccasyms because Ned climbed 8B in them. Nor am I going to buy a pair of bright orange Marmot trousers because Mawson wears them. Sometimes I'll see a few people using gear that I think looks good/appropriate for what I want and if they are using them for the type of things Im keen for then I might take notice but apart from that it doesn't work on me.
You may be immune to it but if you see all the trendy kids down TCA Glasgow wearing their puffy down jackets to go indoor bouldering in an adequately heated room...you'd know that people are influenced by what they see.
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I have seen examples of non-pros doing the whole tagging brands and hashtagging and posing topless and i do find it disheartening but also a bit funny. In some ways it is sad that lesser pros get a bigger slice of the pie but that is the nature of the sponsorship game. You are promoting a brand, that is a major part of your job. nothing in life is for free.
It's really good value money for the brands too as their 'ambassadors' do a fuck load of marketing for them for what appears to be a couple of shoes and some stickers.
Is it though? How much does anyone take notice of what Sponsored heroes wear? I'm not about to buy a pair of 5.10 Moccasyms because Ned climbed 8B in them. Nor am I going to buy a pair of bright orange Marmot trousers because Mawson wears them. Sometimes I'll see a few people using gear that I think looks good/appropriate for what I want and if they are using them for the type of things Im keen for then I might take notice but apart from that it doesn't work on me.
If Ned and all the other UK wads suddenly started wearing Madrocks I bet you'd considered checking out a pair. We are all slaves to advertising.
EDIT: god damnit I'm so slow at this commenting lark ;)
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I have a sticker from a Zillertal guiding service on my snowboard, because the powder course I did with them was so great I thought they deserved some free advertising.
But on reflection I'm probably damaging them: anybody who sees me on my board would be more likely to think "ok, better avoid his teacher then"
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If Ned and all the other UK wads suddenly started wearing Madrocks I bet you'd considered checking out a pair. We are all slaves to advertising.
Madrocks: possibly. Scarpas: no.
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I have seen examples of non-pros doing the whole tagging brands and hashtagging and posing topless and i do find it disheartening but also a bit funny. In some ways it is sad that lesser pros get a bigger slice of the pie but that is the nature of the sponsorship game. You are promoting a brand, that is a major part of your job. nothing in life is for free.
It's really good value money for the brands too as their 'ambassadors' do a fuck load of marketing for them for what appears to be a couple of shoes and some stickers.
Is it though? How much does anyone take notice of what Sponsored heroes wear? I'm not about to buy a pair of 5.10 Moccasyms because Ned climbed 8B in them. Nor am I going to buy a pair of bright orange Marmot trousers because Mawson wears them. Sometimes I'll see a few people using gear that I think looks good/appropriate for what I want and if they are using them for the type of things Im keen for then I might take notice but apart from that it doesn't work on me.
You may be immune to it but if you see all the trendy kids down TCA Glasgow wearing their puffy down jackets to go indoor bouldering in an adequately heated room...you'd know that people are influenced by what they see.
what he said Dunc but you can apply that to that any wall with bumblers and chummers
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If food did become scarce the first thing he'd have done was eat the sport climbers.
Hardly any meat on 'em, nowt but bone & gristle. He'd be better going after rabbits.
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#Hijackalert: I don't believe Slackers wrote that, too many typo's and not liking Linux 'that' much?!. C'mon!
Its not that I don't want to, but I can only concentrate on one thing for so long (i.e. work) and find it awkward switching to another (unrelated) topic that requires concentration, hence watching simple climbing videos in between working rather than learning something new about Linux.
:offtopic:
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I can only concentrate on one thing for so long (i.e. work) and find it awkward switching to another (unrelated) topic that requires concentration, hence watching simple climbing videos in between working rather than learning something new about Linux. I am a puny human
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Guy, Duncan, have you never been to Font? Its like a fucking catalogue shoot. Succinctly put by Grimer:
http://twitter.com/grimerclimber/status/583921566356008960
Whenever money and the need to get a sponsor enter into a person's climbing, usual rules that apply to climbing (matter-of-factness, hard climbs, etc.) go out of the window, and marketing rules enter.
Pretty, handsome, easy to sell, politically correct, these are the things that count. Compromise, compromise, compromise. You basically accept to forswear the truth. You can't say that a route is shit, because your sponsors would not like it. You can't say that you crushed it to atoms, you can't say that someone doesn't deserve a sponsorship, etc. We can't be friends with everyone and we shouldn't be.
I completely agree.
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I don't really see how climbing is different from any other field in relation to this.
Want to be good at something? Do it lots. Want to get paid for being good at something? Build your profile.
Are the bestselling books the 'best' books, the most insightful, the best written? Probably mostly not, they're the ones that are marketed the hardest.
Are the biggest blockbuster films the best films? Same answer.
Was David Beckham the best footballer of his time, or the one who was best at marketing himself as a brand?
Anna Kournikova made a lot of money from tennis sponsorship - was she the best or the best brand opportunity/best looking?
In a world that was perfectly meritocratic, the people who put in the worthiest effort would be paid the most. But that's a bit of a naive worldview. Waste of time getting angry about it.
Train hard, climb lots, climb hard and be satisfied with that. But if you want to make money you have to work, not just do your hobby and expect to be rewarded for it.
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Just saw this and it really made me laugh
https://twitter.com/ClimbingRumours/status/709825506573729793
I would wad you guys if I could :clap2:
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Five ten appears to have become the brand of the hashtag not the brave. Obviously excluding the wads ( Ned and gang), they have people who just pose about "doing all the moves but one , will send next time" on boulders several grades harder than anything they've done before. Obviously they never return for a next time. Not worth a post is it that you can do all moves but crux and can't link it. Let alone free shit
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Guy, Duncan, have you never been to Font? Its like a fucking catalogue shoot. Succinctly put by Grimer:
http://twitter.com/grimerclimber/status/583921566356008960
I have only spent one evening in Font on the way back from Ceuse, and was mainly concentrating on how fun it was bezzing around a circuit getting spanked and doing really ace problems. Who notices or even cares whether people change their clothes a lot during the day? (I actually struggle to believe this happens)
You may be immune to it but if you see all the trendy kids down TCA Glasgow wearing their puffy down jackets to go indoor bouldering in an adequately heated room...you'd know that people are influenced by what they see.
what he said Dunc but you can apply that to that any wall with bumblers and chummers.
Do we all agree these people would have bought an item of outdoor clothing if there were no sponsored heroes? Because if so, does it matter that they saw Caff wearing those terrible Red and black Rab Euro trou and thought "Ooooh maybe I'll be as good as Caff and if not Ill look as cool as Caff if I buy those"? Surely more fool them?
I think Rocksteady hit the nail on the head. Ondra doesn't need to do social media because the media follows him around and he is a) the best and b) happy to do interviews or whatever.
Nathan Lee gets free shoes because he occasionally puts up nice videos of him doing great stuff on the grit.
Honnold gets paid enough to have started his own foundation and there are some shit bits to his job like loads of interviews/lectures/resoloing stuff for film/dealing with adoring american punters. But I reckon more often than not he just goes climbing.
If the above didn't court media I wouldnt have anyhting to watch in my lunch break so there would be a loss. As for those who maybe I don't feel deserve sponsorship or dont embody the spirit of climbing the way I see it I ignore. And i have no bitterness towards the system. :)
P.S that sheff rumours thing is hilarious - imagine if we didnt have these people to take the piss out of?!? Be well boring then!
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I don't really see how climbing is different from any other field in relation to this.
Want to be good at something? Do it lots. Want to get paid for being good at something? Build your profile.
Are the bestselling books the 'best' books, the most insightful, the best written? Probably mostly not, they're the ones that are marketed the hardest.
Are the biggest blockbuster films the best films? Same answer.
Was David Beckham the best footballer of his time, or the one who was best at marketing himself as a brand?
Anna Kournikova made a lot of money from tennis sponsorship - was she the best or the best brand opportunity/best looking?
Science too apparently http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b072jdqm
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Guy, Duncan, have you never been to Font? Its like a fucking catalogue shoot. Succinctly put by Grimer:
http://twitter.com/grimerclimber/status/583921566356008960
I have only spent one evening in Font on the way back from Ceuse, and was mainly concentrating on how fun it was bezzing around a circuit getting spanked and doing really ace problems. Who notices or even cares whether people change their clothes a lot during the day? (I actually struggle to believe this happens)
You may be immune to it but if you see all the trendy kids down TCA Glasgow wearing their puffy down jackets to go indoor bouldering in an adequately heated room...you'd know that people are influenced by what they see.
what he said Dunc but you can apply that to that any wall with bumblers and chummers.
If the above didn't court media I wouldnt have anyhting to watch in my lunch break so there would be a loss. As for those who maybe I don't feel deserve sponsorship or dont embody the spirit of climbing the way I see it I ignore. And i have no bitterness towards the system. :)
You must have some bitterness or at least understand others bitterness becuase I saw your first post on this thread before you edited it ;) those two chaps are REALLY annoying
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Guy, Duncan, have you never been to Font? Its like a fucking catalogue shoot. Succinctly put by Grimer:
http://twitter.com/grimerclimber/status/583921566356008960
I have only spent one evening in Font on the way back from Ceuse, and was mainly concentrating on how fun it was bezzing around a circuit getting spanked and doing really ace problems. Who notices or even cares whether people change their clothes a lot during the day? (I actually struggle to believe this happens)
You may be immune to it but if you see all the trendy kids down TCA Glasgow wearing their puffy down jackets to go indoor bouldering in an adequately heated room...you'd know that people are influenced by what they see.
what he said Dunc but you can apply that to that any wall with bumblers and chummers.
If the above didn't court media I wouldnt have anyhting to watch in my lunch break so there would be a loss. As for those who maybe I don't feel deserve sponsorship or dont embody the spirit of climbing the way I see it I ignore. And i have no bitterness towards the system. :)
You must have some bitterness or at least understand others bitterness becuase I saw your first post on this thread before you edited it ;) those two chaps are REALLY annoying
HAHA!! Dammit! To be honest I do find those two a little annoying. But probably even more so I think its just laughable how un-self aware they are. Looking through their instagram feeds always gives me a giggle. I think they maybe get a small amount of free stuff from weird unknown companies like holdbreaker (Who TF are they!?!) I edited my first post because I thought it was potentially a little harsh/obvious. I guess its annoying that those two dipsticks are probably getting stuff that better climbers maybe deserve? But its a bit of chalk and maybe the odd t-shirt. They aren't raking in Salaries like Sharma and Honnold.
As I said before, they can hashtag pics of their abbs and only managing single moves on 8Cs until the cows come home because at the end of the day it makes no difference to how much I'm going to love going back to Pabbay in the summer. They wont be there when Im in Pembroke and I wont give them a second's thought at these times.
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I sort of understand where people are coming from but I don't understand why you all let it get to you so :shrug:
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Just saw this and it really made me laugh
https://twitter.com/ClimbingRumours/status/709825506573729793
I would wad you guys if I could :clap2:
[/quote
The irony of that climbing rumours feed is the person posting it comes across as sycophantic
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You must have some bitterness or at least understand others bitterness becuase I saw your first post on this thread before you edited it ;) those two chaps are REALLY annoying
@fiveten_official @fivetenuk @pitchclimbing @frictionlabs @monkeyfistclimbing #climbing #climbingtraining #climbbeyond #climbing_is_my_passion #climbing_pictures_of_instagram #brandofthebrave #climbyourimpossible
As an aside, they seem really nice in person which just makes their online presence more unfortunate really.
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I sort of understand where people are coming from but I don't understand why you all let it get to you so :shrug:
No-one is losing sleep over it, I think that climbing means a lot to us and that means climbing as a culture not just as an individual activity.
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You must have some bitterness or at least understand others bitterness becuase I saw your first post on this thread before you edited it ;) those two chaps are REALLY annoying
@fiveten_official @fivetenuk @pitchclimbing @frictionlabs @monkeyfistclimbing #climbing #climbingtraining #climbbeyond #climbing_is_my_passion #climbing_pictures_of_instagram #brandofthebrave #climbyourimpossible
As an aside, they seem really nice in person which just makes their online presence more unfortunate really.
+1
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Science too apparently http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b072jdqm
Yep, science isn't immune since its conducted by humans, a fair proportion of whom want to climb a greasy ladder of promotion or at least get their papers published in high-impact journals so they are returnable for the Research Excellence Framework (REF determines how much of the government funding pie their institution gets) and increase their chances of successful subsequent grant applications. To which end poor science is often conducted.
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Is it though? How much does anyone take notice of what Sponsored heroes wear? I'm not about to buy a pair of 5.10 Moccasyms because Ned climbed 8B in them. Nor am I going to buy a pair of bright orange Marmot trousers because Mawson wears them. Sometimes I'll see a few people using gear that I think looks good/appropriate for what I want and if they are using them for the type of things Im keen for then I might take notice but apart from that it doesn't work on me.
If Ned and all the other UK wads suddenly started wearing Madrocks I bet you'd considered checking out a pair. We are all slaves to advertising.
I'm definitely influenced by the wads. That Simon Lee using 5.10 Blancos on everything for example.
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I sort of understand where people are coming from but I don't understand why you all let it get to you so :shrug:
No-one is losing sleep over it, I think that climbing means a lot to us and that means climbing as a culture not just as an individual activity.
I guess but that is one part of the climbing culture. The climbing culture I interact with i.e you, all those other chumps we hang out with, other people around the world who love it for the same reasons as us - we all seem to be 'lifers'. Climbing is a broad church - if it makes people happy to hashtag the shit out of that pic of themselves then as long as they aren't secretly chipping/gluing/bolting things can't we just leave them to it? Or maybe if you feel so strongly about it maybe you should say something?
I think the whole competition thing is a bit of a load of rubbish that imo isnt really something I see fitting in with climbing culture. I'd never say that to anyone who loved comp climbing's face though as it has nothing to do with me what they choose to do with their time.
My opinion may even be wrong in both of these cases. Maybe we are all wrong? I just think that it would be better to get on with what you are doing/keen on/etc and as long as you can still see a core of similar climbers doing the same and the people not within this core aren't stopping you from doing it the way you want, maybe we should allow them the same?
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You must have some bitterness or at least understand others bitterness becuase I saw your first post on this thread before you edited it ;) those two chaps are REALLY annoying
@fiveten_official @fivetenuk @pitchclimbing @frictionlabs @monkeyfistclimbing #climbing #climbingtraining #climbbeyond #climbing_is_my_passion #climbing_pictures_of_instagram #brandofthebrave #climbyourimpossible
As an aside, they seem really nice in person which just makes their online presence more unfortunate really.
+1
Assuming this refers to who I think it refers to, he is indeed a lovely man and one of the nicest and most supportive people I've ever climbed with. Then he goes online and turns into a raving narcissist. It's all a bit strange.
According to the Guardian we're in a narcissism epidemic:
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/02/narcissism-epidemic-self-obsession-attention-seeking-oversharing (http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/02/narcissism-epidemic-self-obsession-attention-seeking-oversharing)
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I sort of understand where people are coming from but I don't understand why you all let it get to you so :shrug:
No-one is losing sleep over it, I think that climbing means a lot to us and that means climbing as a culture not just as an individual activity.
I guess but that is one part of the climbing culture. The climbing culture I interact with i.e you, all those other chumps we hang out with, other people around the world who love it for the same reasons as us - we all seem to be 'lifers'. Climbing is a broad church - if it makes people happy to hashtag the shit out of that pic of themselves then as long as they aren't secretly chipping/gluing/bolting things can't we just leave them to it? Or maybe if you feel so strongly about it maybe you should say something?
I think the whole competition thing is a bit of a load of rubbish that imo isnt really something I see fitting in with climbing culture. I'd never say that to anyone who loved comp climbing's face though as it has nothing to do with me what they choose to do with their time.
My opinion may even be wrong in both of these cases. Maybe we are all wrong? I just think that it would be better to get on with what you are doing/keen on/etc and as long as you can still see a core of similar climbers doing the same and the people not within this core aren't stopping you from doing it the way you want, maybe we should allow them the same?
you lovely man, I ain't gunna argue with that
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You must have some bitterness or at least understand others bitterness becuase I saw your first post on this thread before you edited it ;) those two chaps are REALLY annoying
@fiveten_official @fivetenuk @pitchclimbing @frictionlabs @monkeyfistclimbing #climbing #climbingtraining #climbbeyond #climbing_is_my_passion #climbing_pictures_of_instagram #brandofthebrave #climbyourimpossible
As an aside, they seem really nice in person which just makes their online presence more unfortunate really.
It's all pretty hilarious and as mentioned, I can't imagine they're actually getting much stuff. As a good friend said, "long may it continue". You know shit's getting real when Grimer dedicated 10% of the B.I.F.F video to mocking one of them - classic.
EDIT* Agree with comments about being very friendly in person.
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Science too apparently http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b072jdqm
Yep, science isn't immune since its conducted by humans, a fair proportion of whom want to climb a greasy ladder of promotion or at least get their papers published in high-impact journals so they are returnable for the Research Excellence Framework (REF determines how much of the government funding pie their institution gets) and increase their chances of successful subsequent grant applications. To which end poor science is often conducted.
This (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-014-0424-0) came up at our department xmas quiz, plotting lectures social media presence against their publication record
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Five ten appears to have become the brand of the hashtag not the brave. Obviously excluding the wads ( Ned and gang), they have people who just pose about "doing all the moves but one , will send next time" on boulders several grades harder than anything they've done before. Obviously they never return for a next time. Not worth a post is it that you can do all moves but crux and can't link it. Let alone free shit
Just wait a minute, someone's getting free stuff for doing all the moves but one and it's not me!? I'm gonna get onto these sponsors right now, idiots are missing a trick
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:offtopic:
This (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-014-0424-0) came up at our department xmas quiz, plotting lectures social media presence against their publication record
Seems a bit crude when they could have taken the existing Altmetric (https://www.altmetric.com/) for each paper and compared it to its citation index Rather than an individuals number of followers on Twatter and their total number of citations.
:offtopic:
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Mr Linux is quite right
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if Pooch hadn't turned into a burly man she would appear more often on covers.
You have mentioned before how you think Pooch is too burly and shouldery. Do you not feel a bit hypocritical, worshipping at the shrine of power and singularity of purpose and then not liking the results when somebody else does the same thing? Should she not try as hard? Would you like her more then?
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This is quite tough really, because it's a very very delicate subject.
I want to clarify that my post was about what it takes to appear on media and become "rich and famous", to quote Bisharat.
You quoted my words as a pure statement, but I've written "maybe, and I say maybe".
For what I'm concerned, let's say that I like when men look like men and women look like women. As much as I don't like adult male climbers who starve themselves to 50 kilos, I don't like women with huge muscles, single digit body fat percentage and pecs where breast should be.
Or, I could like them both. The fact is that, in my opinion, magazines could not like that type of body, especially the female one.
So yes, I worship at the altar of power, but I personally don't like when girls look like men, and maybe magazines don't either. Or I may just be wrong and I have no idea about why she doesn't make the covers anymore.
I think that we also have to take into account the specific nature or climbing, where a proportioned body can go along with high-end results (Jule Wurm, Anna Stohr, the Japanses girl, and many more). We aren't in weightlifting, where a big body is de rigueur. So, maybe this could influence media coverage.
I hope I have answered your question.
EDITED FOR CLARITY.
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Do we all agree these people would have bought an item of outdoor clothing if there were no sponsored heroes? Because if so, does it matter that they saw Caff wearing those terrible Red and black Rab Euro trou and thought "Ooooh maybe I'll be as good as Caff and if not Ill look as cool as Caff if I buy those"? Surely more fool them?
Those are bloody good trousers though... :smart:
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Nibs, Puccio doesn't look like a man, she looks like a woman. To suggest that she could be less shredded and still climb hard is irrelevant. Even if she wasn't climbing hard she could look ripped and that would be fine. If you don't find that attractive then that is also irrelevant because the principle purpose of a woman is not to look attractive to the opposite sex.
If the mags don't put her on the cover because they don't think she is sexually attractive then that is a problem that the whole climbing community should challenge. It's as simple as that.
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This is quite tough really, because it's a very very delicate subject.
I want to clarify that my post was about what it takes to appear on media and become "rich and famous", to quote Bisharat.
You quoted my words as a pure statement, but I've written "maybe, and I say maybe".
For what I'm concerned, let's say that I like when men look like men and women look like women. As much as I don't like adult male climbers who starve themselves to 50 kilos, I don't like women with huge muscles, single digit body fat percentage and pecs where breast should be.
Or, I could like them both. The fact is that, in my opinion, magazines could not like that type of body, especially the female one.
So yes, I worship at the altar of power, but I personally don't like when girls look like men, and maybe magazines don't either. Or I may just be wrong and I have no idea about why she doesn't make the covers anymore.
I think that we also have to take into account the specific nature or climbing, where a proportioned body can go along with high-end results (Jule Wurm, Anna Stohr, the Japanses girl, and many more). We aren't in weightlifting, where a big body is de rigueur. So, maybe this could influence media coverage.
I hope I have answered your question.
EDITED FOR CLARITY.
I'm sure this is well intentioned, but it still has undertones that bother me. Puccio is appearing on climbing magazine covers etc. as a climber, not a woman. She certainly looks like a climber to me.
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Nibs, Puccio doesn't look like a man, she looks like a woman. To suggest that she could be less shredded and still climb hard is irrelevant. Even if she wasn't climbing hard she could look ripped and that would be fine. If you don't find that attractive then that is also irrelevant because the principle purpose of a woman is not to look attractive to the opposite sex.
If the mags don't put her on the cover because they don't think she is sexually attractive then that is a problem that the whole climbing community should challenge. It's as simple as that.
Sorry Lore, this^^^^.
Except I'd change "climbing community" for "Western society".
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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There's no need to be sorry about anything Matt.
I was just trying to imagine why she could be overlooked by media, admitting that she is.
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Nibs, Puccio doesn't look like a man, she looks like a woman. To suggest that she could be less shredded and still climb hard is irrelevant. Even if she wasn't climbing hard she could look ripped and that would be fine. If you don't find that attractive then that is also irrelevant because the principle purpose of a woman is not to look attractive to the opposite sex.
If the mags don't put her on the cover because they don't think she is sexually attractive then that is a problem that the whole climbing community should challenge. It's as simple as that.
I never said that:
- she could be less shredded and still climb hard;
- being ripped isn't right;
- me not finding her attractive is relevant.
I was asked my opinion about worshipping power but not liking her physique, and hence my reply.
The last two lines of your post, on the other hand, find me completely in agreement.
EDITED FOR TYPOS.
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I don't like adult male climbers who starve themselves to 50 kilos,
...but you don't even know me.... sob....
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I don't think you're dieting, right? ;D
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well no, my current light weight is largely a legacy of a medical issue.... though I'll admit that my efforts to regain my previous weight have been a bit half-hearted - a little demon on my shoulder mutters in my ear about power-to-weight ratios.
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;D
I remember about your issues. Hope they're sorted now.
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Maybe, and I say maybe, if Pooch hadn't turned into a burly man she would appear more often on covers. But no one dares to say that.
Presumably they don't dare to say it because it's bad-mannered, misogynistic and an unthinkable thing to say even in private, never mind on a public forum.
Who the fuck cares what you like women to look like?
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Who the fuck cares what you like women to look like?
people who want you to pay to look at women - they care
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Guys,
I didn't want neither to offend nor to be sexist.
As it appears, I definitely didn't make myself clear and I didn't choose the right words to express my thoughts.
If need be, I'd be more than happy that my posts or offending parts of them be removed.
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@EveningSends (https://twitter.com/EveningSends/status/710170095725621248)
I could probably benefit from some of this
Austin Kleon @austinkleon
The Life-Changing Magic Of Not Needing To Have An Opinion
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Nibs, your opinion seemed pretty clear and it was misogynistic and, coming from you, ridiculously hypocritical.
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@EveningSends (https://twitter.com/EveningSends/status/710170095725621248)
I could probably benefit from some of this
Austin Kleon @austinkleon
The Life-Changing Magic Of Not Needing To Have An Opinion
I don't think that's right.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Is it though? How much does anyone take notice of what Sponsored heroes wear? I'm not about to buy a pair of 5.10 Moccasyms because Ned climbed 8B in them. Nor am I going to buy a pair of bright orange Marmot trousers because Mawson wears them. Sometimes I'll see a few people using gear that I think looks good/appropriate for what I want and if they are using them for the type of things Im keen for then I might take notice but apart from that it doesn't work on me.
If Ned and all the other UK wads suddenly started wearing Madrocks I bet you'd considered checking out a pair. We are all slaves to advertising.
I'm definitely influenced by the wads. That Simon Lee using 5.10 Blancos on everything for example.
The fuckers won't even sponsor UKB let alone me
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That'll win them over. :lol:
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Pooch doesn't look as attractive as SBC. Period.
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Pooch doesn't look as attractive as SBC. Period.
SBC? Some bald chap? Dense?
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That'll win them over. :lol:
Hi Stef :wave: :wub:
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>Maybe, and I say maybe, if Pooch hadn't turned into a burly man she would appear more often on covers. But no one dares to say that.
Presumably they don't dare to say it because it's bad-mannered, misogynistic and an unthinkable thing to say even in private, never mind on a public forum.
Who the fuck cares what you like women to look like?
Unthinkable? Are you serious, this is priceless?
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Pooch doesn't look as attractive as SBC. Period.
Honestly disagree.
But then, wife No. 1 was into Judo.
No. 2, a bonafide Romanian gymnast.
And current fiancée was a serious Kick Boxer when we met...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Presumably they don't dare to say it because it's bad-mannered, misogynistic and an unthinkable thing to say even in private, never mind on a public forum.
Who the fuck cares what you like women to look like?
:clap2:
I'm not allowed to dish out karma points but this post, and Will's, are great to see. The idea that someone can be at the top level in their sport, a highly trained athlete, and yet still be criticised because she doesn't fit into someone's ideal of beauty is fucking ridiculous and yet something that female sportspeople have to put up with.
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I think people should read what nibs actually put and not what they think he put. The fact that he doesn't find someone attractive is up to him and was a minor point. Musings on whether she's too musclor to go on front covers anymore etc are also exactly that. Why has she been doing all this stuff, loads more than any other female climber and she's far far stronger than her nearest rival yet still no mainstay media interest? Must be some reason?
Obviously if she was on the news she'd be sat on the left. But probably hung to the right.
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Good looks sell products. Why is this so hard to fathom. That doesn't take anything away from the Pooch (maybe $).
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/potentialdemotivator.jpeg?v=1414017238)
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... and yet Ondra is paid to tour the world. The thing that gets on people's tits (or muscular lack thereof) is the MASSIVE disparity in the kind of casual criticism that people feel it's polite/appropriate to dish out, depending solely on gender.
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I started on Nibs because the comments he made about Puccio reminded me of comments he has previously made and I thought it was an interesting contradiction in his world view.
I do have a point relevent to this thread though. Who are these other female climbers "getting all the media attention"? Off the top of my head the only female climbers who are getting consistantly perhaps more coverage in the climbing media are/is Sasha digiulian. Recently Nina Williams was on the cover of Rock and Ice, I think. Both are adidas athletes and benefit from a well oiled PR machine that puts the stories and photo shoots about that the media pick up on because its is easy.
SBC is often cited as a key example of the not so good climber getting all the attention, but apart from her Twitter/Instagram/Socialmedia the only time she features in the mainstream media is in shit adverts for shit climbing shops, and in this months Rock and Ice in a Go Pro Mtn Games advert. True, she is often depicted in non hardcore climbing shots, but was not Puccio in a Sports Illustated shoot a year or two ago?
Did the World Cup girls not do a cheesecake calendar shoot because they were "bored of always being in climbing shots and wanted to present another side of themselves". I think Mina said this or something along those lines in an interview about the calendar back in the day.
I think the particular Puccio issue is as much down to her not having sponsors who are PRing the shit out of anything she does as much as anything else. Any why not the sponsors? I would argue that her historical massive grumpyness when not climbing well make her less attractive to a sponsor rather than any physical issue. She may be percieved as not a safe pair of hands for the correct presentation of the brand. Perhaps. I just thought of this so I'm not wedded to the idea.
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I think the gender discussion is a bit off topic anyway. To summarise the shit that pisses me off is this:
Sponsored climbers at the top tend not to say anything other than meaningless platitudes about #psyche or #training or that stupid bicep emoji. It's boring as fuck.
This attitude has trickled down to the masses and is rife among those who aren't sponsored and aren't ever going to be sponsored. This is less boring than it is really uncool because people are taking themselves so seriously. This isn't aimed at any one person in particular (I noticed a lot of people getting quite personal further up the thread which was unpleasant to read).
I like following Grimer on Facebook and Twitter. He's an official BMC man, yet he still calls his followers cunts and bastards. More of that please.
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I'm not convinced there's much misogynistic ('hatred of women' - really?! Come off it.) about Nib's offering up of his views on what sort of looks he prefers in women (and men).
Sexist? Slightly crass perhaps, but that's one of the better features of ukb remember, I'd rather hear interesting opinion than meaningless platitude upon tepid banality.
Apply the reverse to what Nibs said and it doesn't strike me as misandristic:
'Maybe, and I say maybe, if Pooch Man X hadn't turned into a burly man skinny woman she he would appear more often on covers. But no one dares to say that.'
Likewise this:
For what I'm concerned, let's say that I like when men look like men and women look like women. As much as I don't like adult male climbers who starve themselves to 50 kilos, I don't like women with huge muscles, single digit body fat percentage and pecs where breast should be.
The reverse is in there already ('male climbers starving themselves ...etc'). But I didn't hear anyone complain about Nibs professing to not like men who look like women. Surely there must be some men offended, or some women offended for them?
So yes, I worship at the altar of power, but I personally don't like when men look like women, and maybe magazines don't either.
That to me's the interesting question. If there's a bias in climbing media towards physical attractiveness over sporting ability. Seems a no-brainer to me, a bit like sponsorship oil goes to the squeeky wheels. And does it apply more to one sex or the other or both equally - i.e. is it a sexist bias or an equal bias?
(in response to 'looks sell'... and yet Ondra is paid to tour the world. The thing that gets on people's tits (or muscular lack thereof) is the MASSIVE disparity in the kind of casual criticism that people feel it's polite/appropriate to dish out, depending solely on gender.
Really? Again I'm unconvinced by this and suspect there's some over-sensitivity going on. Ondra gets called an ugly bastard on here on most days ending with 'y'. He's regularly labelled Polly from 'Hi-De-Hi' ffs! :lol:
(https://www.comedy.co.uk/images/library/people/180x200/h/hi_de_hi_peggy.jpg)
Pooch has her work cut out: a sponsorship marketing system / outwith commonly accepted norms of physical attractiveness / possibly being the 'wrong' sex - fuck I'm glad I'm shit, uninterested in external reward/recognition, and male!
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Good looks sell products. Why is this so hard to fathom. That doesn't take anything away from the Pooch (maybe $).
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/potentialdemotivator.jpeg?v=1414017238)
That post says nothing about nothing.
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I think the gender discussion is a bit off topic anyway. To summarise the shit that pisses me off is this:
Sponsored climbers at the top tend not to say anything other than meaningless platitudes about #psyche or #training or that stupid bicep emoji. It's boring as fuck.
This attitude has trickled down to the masses and is rife among those who aren't sponsored and aren't ever going to be sponsored. This is less boring than it is really uncool because people are taking themselves so seriously. This isn't aimed at any one person in particular (I noticed a lot of people getting quite personal further up the thread which was unpleasant to read).
I like following Grimer on Facebook and Twitter. He's an official BMC man, yet he still calls his followers cunts and bastards. More of that please.
+1. Not sure why people ended up talking about the mags, the original article is about this kind of crap. Black and white photos of fingerboarding along with telling me just how hard you try in your training sessions are my current least favourite.
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I think the gender discussion is a bit off topic anyway. To summarise the shit that pisses me off is this:
Sponsored climbers at the top tend not to say anything other than meaningless platitudes about #psyche or #training or that stupid bicep emoji. It's boring as fuck.
This attitude has trickled down to the masses and is rife among those who aren't sponsored and aren't ever going to be sponsored. This is less boring than it is really uncool because people are taking themselves so seriously. This isn't aimed at any one person in particular (I noticed a lot of people getting quite personal further up the thread which was unpleasant to read).
I like following Grimer on Facebook and Twitter. He's an official BMC man, yet he still calls his followers cunts and bastards. More of that please.
+1. Not sure why people ended up talking about the mags, the original article is about this kind of crap. Black and white photos of fingerboarding along with telling me just how hard you try in your training sessions are my current least favourite.
Then again, if your sponsors sell finger boards/are a training venue...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I think the gender discussion is a bit off topic anyway. To summarise the shit that pisses me off is this:
Sponsored climbers at the top tend not to say anything other than meaningless platitudes about #psyche or #training or that stupid bicep emoji. It's boring as fuck.
This attitude has trickled down to the masses and is rife among those who aren't sponsored and aren't ever going to be sponsored. This is less boring than it is really uncool because people are taking themselves so seriously. This isn't aimed at any one person in particular (I noticed a lot of people getting quite personal further up the thread which was unpleasant to read).
I like following Grimer on Facebook and Twitter. He's an official BMC man, yet he still calls his followers cunts and bastards. More of that please.
+1. Not sure why people ended up talking about the mags, the original article is about this kind of crap. Black and white photos of fingerboarding along with telling me just how hard you try in your training sessions are my current least favourite.
The grim reality of media without the filter of an editor. Thousands upon thousands of average climbers being self-indulgent, constantly accompanied by a string of links and hashtags for fingerboard/wall/chalk/flapjack.
Why would you want that piped into your daily life?
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I think the gender discussion is a bit off topic anyway. To summarise the shit that pisses me off is this:
Sponsored climbers at the top tend not to say anything other than meaningless platitudes about #psyche or #training or that stupid bicep emoji. It's boring as fuck.
This attitude has trickled down to the masses and is rife among those who aren't sponsored and aren't ever going to be sponsored. This is less boring than it is really uncool because people are taking themselves so seriously. This isn't aimed at any one person in particular (I noticed a lot of people getting quite personal further up the thread which was unpleasant to read).
I like following Grimer on Facebook and Twitter. He's an official BMC man, yet he still calls his followers cunts and bastards. More of that please.
+1. Not sure why people ended up talking about the mags, the original article is about this kind of crap. Black and white photos of fingerboarding along with telling me just how hard you try in your training sessions are my current least favourite.
The grim reality of media without the filter of an editor. Thousands upon thousands of average climbers being self-indulgent, constantly accompanied by a string of links and hashtags for fingerboard/wall/chalk/flapjack.
Why would you want that piped into your daily life?
That's quite true actually, you do have to actually opt-in to this stream of bollocks by following/friending
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Or just not having a Facebook / Twitter / Instagram / Google + / Bebo account? I know it sounds crazy but it is possible.
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Or just not having a Facebook / Twitter / Instagram / Google + / Bebo account? I know it sounds crazy but it is possible.
That's what I meant by opt-in
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The grim reality of media without the filter of an editor. Thousands upon thousands of average climbers being self-indulgent, constantly accompanied by a string of links and hashtags for fingerboard/wall/chalk/flapjack.
Why would you want that piped into your daily life?
Indeed. I don't buy the daily mail, read mail online or ever eat KFC either, thousands do, but if they would like to consume figurative shit, that's their choice.
The exposure versus ability thing is not just a climbing phenomena. Sharipova was (until recently!) one of the highest earning tennis players in the world, despite being far from the highest achieving. You could pull put a thousand examples from any sector of the media. Tacky media of any sort is occasionally entertaining to a lot of people. I'm not sure this is a sign of the deterioration of modern climbing, perhaps a symptom of its popularity?
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Or just not having a Facebook / Twitter / Instagram / Google + / Bebo account? I know it sounds crazy but it is possible.
That's what I meant by opt-in
OK, I thought you just meant not "subscribing" to any of the ones you don't want to. Their social media "worth" does seem to be assessed by the amount of followers they have.
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The grim reality ... flapjack.
Why would you want that piped into your daily life?
Just try the grim reality of living for a while in a country where flapjack is unknown, then get back to me.
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The grim reality of media without the filter of an editor. Thousands upon thousands of average climbers being self-indulgent, constantly accompanied by a string of links and hashtags for fingerboard/wall/chalk/flapjack.
Why would you want that piped into your daily life?
I'm not sure this is a sign of the deterioration of modern climbing, perhaps a symptom of its popularity Iphones etc?
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The exposure versus ability thing is not just a climbing phenomena. Sharipova was (until recently!) one of the highest earning tennis players in the world, despite being far from the highest achieving.
She has been the highest earning female sportsperson for the past ten years, not just in tennis and not just "one of" the highest. However, she has been near the top of her sport since she won Wimbledon at 17, she has won every Grand Slam and, had it not been for her shoulder issues, could well have gone on to win more. It's not like she's Anna Kournikova.
However, Sharapova also puts a lot of effort into getting and maintaining her sponsorship. She's been known, when in a nightclub, to peel the label of the bottle of water she's drinking if it isn't a brand she has endorsed, lest a pap gets a photo of her.
Back on climbing, having been on the "I can't believe SBC gets all the coverage she does", I actually agree with erm, sam. She doesn't seem to. Apart from the Climb X advert in Alpinist*, unless I followed her on social media, I wouldn't know who she was. She's not exactly sponsored by any big brands. It is, as pointed out by many above, an "opt in" culture.
*which does make me die a little inside every time I see it as firstly, the shoes look properly shit, and secondly, for such an amazing magazine full of inspiring stories, articles and imagery to have a crap photo of a hot-panted girl either putting her shoes on or hanging off two massive jugs on a V3, the equivalent of the shit instagram photo everyone is complaining about above, but in print in Alpinist)
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I don't have Instagram and don't look there unless linked to it on here or elsewhere. I don't think you have to subscribe to it personally to be affected by it. If your peers in the wider community subscribe to this stuff, place value in it, and even seek to emulate it then it does affect you. If the people who don't engage in the social media splurging are viewed as the exception rather than the rule then the nature of the sport has changed, in my opinion not for the better.
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I would say my climbing peers aren't really affected by it as they are either my age or older (apart from Falling Down, he loves a bit of Instagram despite being an old duffer....). as much as I like looking at cool climbing/skiing/surfing pics from far flung corners of the world, I don't place any "value" on them.
However, if it is affecting the youth (are you still in that category Will?) then it is an issue as it could well change the nature of the climbing.
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I would say my climbing peers aren't really affected by it as they are either my age or older (apart from Falling Down, he loves a bit of Instagram despite being an old duffer....). as much as I like looking at cool climbing/skiing/surfing pics from far flung corners of the world, I don't place any "value" on them.
However, if it is affecting the youth (are you still in that category Will?) then it is an issue as it could well change the nature of the climbing.
It's odd, when I stop and think.
I've got one album from a '92-'93, 9 month Exped to Antarctica/South Georgia, with ~80 photos and that's way more than any other trip until I bought my first digital camera in 2003. I have hardly any photos of anything much before the digital camera and a whole bunch are on slides (in my parents attic) that are unlikely to ever see the light of day again!
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However, if it is affecting the youth (are you still in that category Will?) then it is an issue as it could well change the nature of the climbing.
Desperately trying to cling to youth despite having checked out mentally if not physically some time ago. I'm 26 and climb with people between the ages of early twenties to early 60s. Whenever I get the camera out in front of my pensioner pal I get the piss taken out of me :bow:
My justification is that I'm trying to promote the lesser known crags and boulders in what I hope is a relatively dry way.
Edited: realised I didn't even know how old I was...
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I don't have Instagram and don't look there unless linked to it on here or elsewhere. I don't think you have to subscribe to it personally to be affected by it. If your peers in the wider community subscribe to this stuff, place value in it, and even seek to emulate it then it does affect you. If the people who don't engage in the social media splurging are viewed as the exception rather than the rule then the nature of the sport has changed, in my opinion not for the better.
But the nature of climbing itself hasn't changed!?!? Whether or not I post a photo of myself tensing my muscles whilst not actually topping that classic 8A has literally no bearing on your experience of climbing it does it Will?
If a narcissist posts a photo to instagram but no-ones sees it does it have any affect on anyones climbing? Answer: no shirley?
Another example; I hear loads of people berate those who use forums (fair enough) so do you all feel like you are negatively affecting the culture of climbing? Of course you don't! But are you willing to accept that you might be? i.e read the Brian Cropper obit. on UKC he wasn't into forums and people asking for beta "wheres the adventure in that?" he'd say.
I get the argument with regards to kids coming into climbing. It would be really shit if no-one coming into climbing thought you could be a passionate talented climber without heavy use of instagram etc, but in reality I think a) kids grow up and make their own decisions and b) there are enough gnarly, passionate lifers to provide a good example of another way.
Maybe it is worse for those who are almost exclusively boulderers or sport climbers? Is it annoying that these strong kids are pissing your projects whilst hashtagging the soul out of your life's ambition?
I'd just say maybe you should look at yourselves deeper if this is the case.
I'm regularly burnt off by every hashtagger and his tweeting dog. It literally makes no difference to how I feel about what I climb I know I'm shit, I know I love climbing and I see climbing as being pretty healthy. Yep there are some who seem obsessed with trying to become sponsored but you get loads of different people climbing and its going to happen.
I dont ever look at twitter but I do look at and occasionally post on instagram. it keeps me amused at lunch or in the queue to pay for my shopping. maybe im part of the problem... #fictionlabschalk #brandofthenarcissistic :popcorn:
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I have very little to add that hasn't already been said.
I would like to point out that, as a group, we seem fine with someone dedicating the most useful and productive hours/weeks/months/years of their life to sculpting their own body into a shape that allows them to pursue their own dreams by achieving a goal that, frankly, only they care about.
Yet if they post a picture on instagram we call that narcissistic.
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Its not entirely 'opt in' - to get rid of this stuff from my fb feed I'd have to defriend everyone who likes the stuff... That may be a good plan however!
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I have very little to add that hasn't already been said.
I would like to point out that, as a group, we seem fine with someone dedicating the most useful and productive hours/weeks/months/years of their life to sculpting their own body into a shape that allows them to pursue their own dreams by achieving a goal that, frankly, only they care about.
Yet if they post a picture on instagram we call that narcissistic.
Climbing/life is full of egotists, everyone is one to a greater or lesser extent. I thought the point with climbing was that you demonstrated to your peers how great you were rather than told them.
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Its not entirely 'opt in' - to get rid of this stuff from my fb feed I'd have to defriend everyone who likes the stuff... That may be a good plan however!
It's not our fault your mates are narcissistic wankers and clickbait addicts......
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I think you've missed the point.
But the nature of climbing itself hasn't changed!?!? Whether or not I post a photo of myself tensing my muscles whilst not actually topping that classic 8A has literally no bearing on your experience of climbing it does it Will?
If a narcissist posts a photo to instagram but no-ones sees it does it have any affect on anyones climbing? Answer: no shirley?
If climbing for you starts when you step onto the rock and ends when you top out then maybe. For almost everybody I suspect this is not the case and they like to engage with the wider culture of climbing. People buy magazines, read biographies, listen to podcasts, post on social media, and sign up to internet message boards all to do with climbing. I don't know how you can do any of these things and claim to not care what goes on in the climbing scene.
Another example; I hear loads of people berate those who use forums (fair enough) so do you all feel like you are negatively affecting the culture of climbing? Of course you don't! But are you willing to accept that you might be? i.e read the Brian Cropper obit. on UKC he wasn't into forums and people asking for beta "wheres the adventure in that?" he'd say.
This isn't really relevant to what we're discussing. Brian may have had a point ten years ago about people sharing beta on public forums, arguing that the adventure was being chipped out of climbing. I refuse to believe, however, that nobody every came into the YHA in Manchester and asked what size wire you needed for route X. The game has never changed in that respect, just the way in which people shared the information. What we're talking about here is a recent explosion of empty narcissism in climbing.
I get the argument with regards to kids coming into climbing. It would be really shit if no-one coming into climbing thought you could be a passionate talented climber without heavy use of instagram etc
I wouldn't be so sure that we aren't already doing that to some small extent. We've already told people that if they are up-and-coming then they need to film any hard thing that they do or there will be pages and pages of accusations written online about the veracity of their claims. If Instagram is the way people host this media and everybody else is hashtag spunking everywhere then that's just the way it's done isn't it?
Maybe it is worse for those who are almost exclusively boulderers or sport climbers? Is it annoying that these strong kids are pissing your projects whilst hashtagging the soul out of your life's ambition?
I'd just say maybe you should look at yourselves deeper if this is the case.
Oh ffs, Duncan :chair: :wall: :spank:
The trad climber who thinks that anyone who clips a bolt or carries a toothbrush is a self-obsessed, beanie-lover who can't handle anybody climbing harder than them is the oldest stereotype in the book. Don't sink to that level.
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Its not entirely 'opt in' - to get rid of this stuff from my fb feed I'd have to defriend everyone who likes the stuff... That may be a good plan however!
You could delete your FB account though? I did that a month ago and life hasn't changed one bit.
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I think you've missed the point.
If climbing for you starts when you step onto the rock and ends when you top out then maybe. For almost everybody I suspect this is not the case and they like to engage with the wider culture of climbing. People buy magazines, read biographies, listen to podcasts, post on social media, and sign up to internet message boards all to do with climbing. I don't know how you can do any of these things and claim to not care what goes on in the climbing scene.
I do take an interest but I just ignore those who I find annoying or those I don't think do it for the reasons I hold dear. Who am I to say how or why people should climb?
Plus (and thats a big PLUS) climbing is mainly about going and doing it, not talking about it or watching like for example football.
Another example; I hear loads of people berate those who use forums (fair enough) so do you all feel like you are negatively affecting the culture of climbing? Of course you don't! But are you willing to accept that you might be? i.e read the Brian Cropper obit. on UKC he wasn't into forums and people asking for beta "wheres the adventure in that?" he'd say.
This isn't really relevant to what we're discussing. Brian may have had a point ten years ago about people sharing beta on public forums, arguing that the adventure was being chipped out of climbing. I refuse to believe, however, that nobody every came into the YHA in Manchester and asked what size wire you needed for route X. The game has never changed in that respect, just the way in which people shared the information. What we're talking about here is a recent explosion of empty narcissism in climbing.
But surely us arguing that we are the 'true believers', the shining knights of climbing for the truest reasons and letting everyone know our viewpoints is narcissistic? humans are narcissists to some degree?
I'd agree there has been an EDIT: increase of empty narcissim. what i dont agree with is that its really that big of a problem. You've not been stopped from loving climbing for whatever reasons you do, so why does it matter that others love climbing for the hashtagging? (i bet they share some of our reasons for loving climbing)
Maybe it is worse for those who are almost exclusively boulderers or sport climbers? Is it annoying that these strong kids are pissing your projects whilst hashtagging the soul out of your life's ambition?
I'd just say maybe you should look at yourselves deeper if this is the case.
Oh ffs, Duncan :chair: :wall: :spank:
The trad climber who thinks that anyone who clips a bolt or carries a toothbrush is a self-obsessed, beanie-lover who can't handle anybody climbing harder than them is the oldest stereotype in the book. Don't sink to that level.
Ok, ok that was a little naughty - I'm sorry. But what I was and still am wandering is exactly what is so terrible about all this? Yes its a little embarrassing and not what I see in climbing but I see enough people who don't do this (I reckon more dont than do) so it doesn't bother me. Plus I like to see people getting out and enjoying climbing.
*WIND-UP ALERT* Plus if you poncey, bolt-clipping, boulder hugging wimps stared death in the face like us heroic tradheads you'd see past all this rubbish. you'd have a higher understanding. ;) :P *WIND-UP ALERT OVER*
Anyway this is my actual last word on the matter. Id be keen to hear any response Will but I CBA with arguing about this non-problem further. Plus I really should do some work.
:popcorn:
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I think you defeated s number of your own arguments in that post so I don't feel much need to reply :P
Plus, anybody describing themselves as a "true believer" could well be a punter/knob :P
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I have very little to add that hasn't already been said.
I would like to point out that, as a group, we seem fine with someone dedicating the most useful and productive hours/weeks/months/years of their life to sculpting their own body into a shape that allows them to pursue their own dreams by achieving a goal that, frankly, only they care about.
Yet if they post a picture on instagram we call that narcissistic.
I'm calling bullshit. The shape isn't the end goal (it is a byproduct) and being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself.
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I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... :whistle:
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...being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself.
If the challenge or goal has no benefit to anyone but yourself then yes, it is.
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...being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself.
If the challenge or goal has no benefit to anyone but yourself then yes, it is.
If I do my target this year, i'll buy you a McDonner
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...being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself.
If the challenge or goal has no benefit to anyone but yourself then yes, it is.
Gandhi and similar excepted, generally people achieving great things do it for themselves whether it is Bill Gates or Mo Farah or Jonathon Livingstone Seagull. It is only others that decide whether what has been achieved has a benefit. Trying hard to reach a goal (whatever that goal might be) is the best form of human endeavour - it is not narcissistic
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Nicely handled Guy
I'm sure this has been said already but I'm not convinced yet that Social Media has increased narcissism, as opposed to increasing it's visibility. Anyway it strikes me that none of you are really bothered that these instagram posts and HALAM boasts are narcissistic. What bothers you is that they're DULL.
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...being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself.
If the challenge or goal has no benefit to anyone but yourself then yes, it is.
I just like burning people off.
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I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... :whistle:
now that would be something worth watching and hashtagging about
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Gandhi and similar excepted, generally people achieving great things do it for themselves whether it is Bill Gates or Mo Farah or Jonathon Livingstone Seagull. It is only others that decide whether what has been achieved has a benefit. Over-reaching is the best form of human endeavour - it is not narcissistic
You can quote Ghandi as much as you like. It doesn't change what you're doing this weekend.
Are you volunteering in a homeless shelter? Helping your kids with their homework? Doing the shopping for an elderly neighbour? Designing a clean energy source? Are you bollocks. You're going to forego some or all of these things and go climbing, an act which is neither use nor ornament to anyone.
Selfishness and narcissism are just words for different levels of self-centredness. Narcissism usually implies a higher degree of self-regard but it's all just a spectrum and if you think there's anything noble about your struggle to climb the oak you are <insert insult here>.
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Its all life.
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Its all life.
Ooo.. cryptic. Where are you going with this? Narcissism and endeavour being two sides of the same coin / dependent on the observer?
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I would suggest that the heavy use of Instagram and social media is more histrionic than narcissistic.
I.E. It seems more the need for attention, rather than the unshakable belief that they are superior to others.
How do you like them apples?!
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I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... :whistle:
Have "we" not now decided that FFA demeans women's achievement? I can't remember what opinion I'm supposed to have......
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After setting this in motion, I realised I couldn't comment in any meaningful way; because of my position as a wall owner.
It has made very interesting reading though.
I wandered off into the wilderness before the internet really took hold, so when I climbed, I climbed for myself; much as I had done in the '80s and early '90s. The idea of reporting my bumbling, having a score card or even a log book was totally alien to me (the most I ever managed was some scrawled notes in guide books, like "this was crap" or "couldn't do it").
As was the whole forum thing. I discovered UKB by accident in 2010, whilst living in Spain and hunting for interesting venues and beta on line. Returning to the UK in 2011, I was shocked by the arrogance and confrontational attitude of many UK climbers. I suppose that language barriers might have insulated me from similar issues in other countries, but it felt very different from the scene I remembered from my youth.
I often feel, reading social media feed, that the points of the article I originally linked to; are valid. That everything is shallow, arrogant, strutting posturing and bullshit.
But that doesn't square with my experience at the crag, where most people seem pretty much the same as they always were.
So I think the impression created by this new media, is false.
It's too easy to interpret an "enthusiastic" post as "narcissistic", a minor gripe as a major whinge etc. Short passages of text allow way too much room for imposed context by the reader.
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Selfishness and narcissism are just words for different levels of self-centredness. Narcissism usually implies a higher degree of self-regard but it's all just a spectrum and if you think there's anything noble about your struggle to climb the oak you are <insert insult here>.
I prefer to think of it as quixotic rather than noble
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Another example; I hear loads of people berate those who use forums (fair enough) so do you all feel like you are negatively affecting the culture of climbing? Of course you don't! But are you willing to accept that you might be? i.e read the Brian Cropper obit. on UKC he wasn't into forums and people asking for beta "wheres the adventure in that?" he'd say.
This isn't really relevant to what we're discussing. Brian may have had a point ten years ago about people sharing beta on public forums, arguing that the adventure was being chipped out of climbing. I refuse to believe, however, that nobody every came into the YHA in Manchester and asked what size wire you needed for route X. The game has never changed in that respect, just the way in which people shared the information. What we're talking about here is a recent explosion of empty narcissism in climbing.
They certainly would have asked what wire was needed for route X, then knicked it when Brian wasn't looking.
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I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... :whistle:
She's seems to have retired from hard outside climbing. It's the feeds that are all indoors that bore me.
Slow Mo dynos in particular .
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I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... :whistle:
She's seems to have retired from hard outside climbing. It's the feeds that are all indoors that bore me.
Slow Mo dynos in particular .
I feel like this is such a waste of great talent and one of the reasons why is below.
Have "we" not now decided that FFA demeans women's achievement?
Whilst it's fantastic that Shauna is psyched for comps and does so well in them at an international level is great. Yet she will always be competing against women in these comps and not men. If Shauna turned her talent to rocks then it would start eroding the idea of FFA as she would be as good as the other men doing it. Climbing on rocks is a free for all. Climbing in comps is segregated. If more women climb problems that shut down some of our strongest men I think FFA would become a thing of the past.
Anyway, sorry for going off topic. I don't follow Shauna on social media anymore because of the 'dull' stuff. I'm clearly biased though.
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Selfishness and narcissism are just words for different levels of self-centredness. Narcissism usually implies a higher degree of self-regard but it's all just a spectrum and if you think there's anything noble about your struggle to climb the oak you are <insert insult here>.
I prefer to think of it as quixotic rather than noble
What about fragile narcissism?
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I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... :whistle:
She's seems to have retired from hard outside climbing. It's the feeds that are all indoors that bore me.
Slow Mo dynos in particular .
I feel like this is such a waste of great talent and one of the reasons why is below.
Have "we" not now decided that FFA demeans women's achievement?
Whilst it's fantastic that Shauna is psyched for comps and does so well in them at an international level is great. Yet she will always be competing against women in these comps and not men. If Shauna turned her talent to rocks then it would start eroding the idea of FFA as she would be as good as the other men doing it. Climbing on rocks is a free for all. Climbing in comps is segregated. If more women climb problems that shut down some of our strongest men I think FFA would become a thing of the past.
Anyway, sorry for going off topic. I don't follow Shauna on social media anymore because of the 'dull' stuff. I'm clearly biased though.
Ironically, she has just these few minutes past, posted on Farcebuck a picture of herself fingerboarding, on the back of a van, outdoors and wished for good conditions in the Connies this weekend.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Selfishness and narcissism are just words for different levels of self-centredness. Narcissism usually implies a higher degree of self-regard but it's all just a spectrum and if you think there's anything noble about your struggle to climb the oak you are <insert insult here>.
I prefer to think of it as quixotic rather than noble
What about fragile narcissism?
What about it?
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I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... :whistle:
She's seems to have retired from hard outside climbing. It's the feeds that are all indoors that bore me.
Slow Mo dynos in particular .
I feel like this is such a waste of great talent and one of the reasons why is below.
Have "we" not now decided that FFA demeans women's achievement?
Whilst it's fantastic that Shauna is psyched for comps and does so well in them at an international level is great. Yet she will always be competing against women in these comps and not men. If Shauna turned her talent to rocks then it would start eroding the idea of FFA as she would be as good as the other men doing it. Climbing on rocks is a free for all. Climbing in comps is segregated. If more women climb problems that shut down some of our strongest men I think FFA would become a thing of the past.
Anyway, sorry for going off topic. I don't follow Shauna on social media anymore because of the 'dull' stuff. I'm clearly biased though.
Ironically, she has just these few minutes past, posted on Farcebuck a picture of herself fingerboarding, on the back of a van, outdoors and wished for good conditions in the Connies this weekend.
Well let's see what comes of it then! ;D
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Selfishness and narcissism are just words for different levels of self-centredness. Narcissism usually implies a higher degree of self-regard but it's all just a spectrum and if you think there's anything noble about your struggle to climb the oak you are <insert insult here>.
I prefer to think of it as quixotic rather than noble
I was just thinking that viewing someone as selfish or self centred or narcissistic was one way thinking about it, but there's a certain fragility to the people doing the posting sometimes.
That aside I think your Oak posts / mission and openness about training etc on here is very un narcissistic and makes an interesting and inspiring story. I hope you do it!
What about fragile narcissism?
What about it?
I was just thinking that viewing someone as selfish or self centred or narcissistic was one way thinking about it, but there's a certain fragility to the people doing the posting sometimes.
That aside I think your Oak posts / mission and openness about training etc on here is very un narcissistic and makes an interesting and inspiring story. I hope you do it!
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I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... :whistle:
She's seems to have retired from hard outside climbing. It's the feeds that are all indoors that bore me.
Slow Mo dynos in particular .
I feel like this is such a waste of great talent and one of the reasons why is below.
Have "we" not now decided that FFA demeans women's achievement?
Whilst it's fantastic that Shauna is psyched for comps and does so well in them at an international level is great. Yet she will always be competing against women in these comps and not men. If Shauna turned her talent to rocks then it would start eroding the idea of FFA as she would be as good as the other men doing it. Climbing on rocks is a free for all. Climbing in comps is segregated. If more women climb problems that shut down some of our strongest men I think FFA would become a thing of the past.
Anyway, sorry for going off topic. I don't follow Shauna on social media anymore because of the 'dull' stuff. I'm clearly biased though.
Ironically, she has just these few minutes past, posted on Farcebuck a picture of herself fingerboarding, on the back of a van, outdoors and wished for good conditions in the Connies this weekend.
Well let's see what comes of it then! ;D
Oh you'll hear about it.. noteworthy send or not.
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You could delete your FB account though? I did that a month ago and life hasn't changed one bit.
Quitting Farcebook might make you happier according to this study (http://www.happinessresearchinstitute.com/download/i/mark_dl/u/4012182887/4624845731/The%20Facebook%20Experiment.pdf) from the Danish Happiness Research Institute of 1095 people who used the site daily.
Big pinch of salt required though as the study has a lot of limitations.
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Not really, I'm not on farcebook and I'm the happiest guy I know
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Selfishness and narcissism are just words for different levels of self-centredness. Narcissism usually implies a higher degree of self-regard but it's all just a spectrum and if you think there's anything noble about your struggle to climb the oak you are <insert insult here>.
I prefer to think of it as quixotic rather than noble
I was just thinking that viewing someone as selfish or self centred or narcissistic was one way thinking about it, but there's a certain fragility to the people doing the posting sometimes.
That aside I think your Oak posts / mission and openness about training etc on here is very un narcissistic and makes an interesting and inspiring story. I hope you do it!
What about fragile narcissism?
What about it?
I was just thinking that viewing someone as selfish or self centred or narcissistic was one way thinking about it, but there's a certain fragility to the people doing the posting sometimes.
That aside I think your Oak posts / mission and openness about training etc on here is very un narcissistic and makes an interesting and inspiring story. I hope you do it!
Oh dear - I see you've been Mumraahed
The main thing is that Stu has downgraded climbers from being narcissistic to selfish (as if that wasn't obvious) - though they are just words.
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Haha mumrahed. Pfffft.
:shit:
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The Spanish seem particularly shameless about the "empty-posting". A good friend (and damn good climber - 8c at 18) has just posted onto facebook a shining example. A photo taken a year ago, of a project he hasn't done yet, talking about looking forward to the Semana Santa week off.
In general, it seems to be harmless, but there's one girl in Madrid who's up to her tits in sponsors, but climbs about 6a. By "playing the game", complete with all the hashtag bullshit turned up to 11, she's managed to sell herself as some glamourous wad. "Top 3 in the Zona Centro championships" is a neat way of saying "last, and fell off the third move of the route". She's robbing some really promising climbers of the limelight and making a bad name for female climbers in the area.
Normally, I'd leave said person nameless, but since she cheated in her last competition in order to make finals, here's Tiana's instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BAK66X0MW9l/?taken-by=tianalv96
#wtfisthisshithaseveryonelosttheirminds
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Its all life.
Ooo.. cryptic. Where are you going with this? Narcissism and endeavour being two sides of the same coin / dependent on the observer?
nothing clever or cryptic - when you made that comment on your attitude towards the work/climbing/life/risk balance, I thought (and still do) that it was the most perceptive and helpful thing I had ever read on the subject
I think it also applies to the balance of the value of stuff that we do for ourselves, for other people and for the way we value how other people to view us
simples
and for further thought - I think the current fashion of sharing, posting, tagging, narcissism etc. is no worse than the older climbing related habits of alcohol and drug misuse - and is possibly less harmful in the long run
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I have very little to add that hasn't already been said.
I would like to point out that, as a group, we seem fine with someone dedicating the most useful and productive hours/weeks/months/years of their life to sculpting their own body into a shape that allows them to pursue their own dreams by achieving a goal that, frankly, only they care about.
Yet if they post a picture on instagram we call that narcissistic.
I don't think it's the narcissicm per se that leaves a bitter taste; more that people are supposing that their selfish pursuits are important in the scheme of things. It's one thing to jump for joy at doing your first 1-4-7 or whatever, but it's another to vomit that information onto the internet, complete with hashtags to make sure your post "affects" as much people as possible.
N.B. If this thread has proven one thing, it's that people definitely do care. Just not necessarily in the intended way...
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I'd like to make time in this thread to mention how fantastic chalk is, particularly that stuff that costs about fifty quid an ounce.
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I'd like to make time in this thread to mention how fantastic chalk is, particularly that stuff that costs about fifty quid an ounce.
does an ounce of that boost your ego as much as that shit that costs fifty quid per gram?
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I'd like to make time in this thread to mention how fantastic chalk is, particularly that stuff that costs about fifty quid an ounce.
does an ounce of that boost your ego as much as that shit that costs fifty quid per gram?
No. And it's rubbish when you rub it on your gums too.
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The Spanish seem particularly shameless about the "empty-posting". A good friend (and damn good climber - 8c at 18) has just posted onto facebook a shining example. A photo taken a year ago, of a project he hasn't done yet, talking about looking forward to the Semana Santa week off.
In general, it seems to be harmless, but there's one girl in Madrid who's up to her tits in sponsors, but climbs about 6a. By "playing the game", complete with all the hashtag bullshit turned up to 11, she's managed to sell herself as some glamourous wad. "Top 3 in the Zona Centro championships" is a neat way of saying "last, and fell off the third move of the route". She's robbing some really promising climbers of the limelight and making a bad name for female climbers in the area.
Normally, I'd leave said person nameless, but since she cheated in her last competition in order to make finals, here's Tiana's instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BAK66X0MW9l/?taken-by=tianalv96
#wtfisthisshithaseveryonelosttheirminds
But has she jumped to the top hold of the Joker off the block though?
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I'd like to make time in this thread to mention how fantastic chalk is, particularly that stuff that costs about fifty quid an ounce.
does an ounce of that boost your ego as much as that shit that costs fifty quid per gram?
No. And it's rubbish when you rub it on your gums too.
The bloke selling it promised me it was so much purer than the floury shit I usually buy
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I'd like to make time in this thread to mention how fantastic chalk is, particularly that stuff that costs about fifty quid an ounce.
does an ounce of that boost your ego as much as that shit that costs fifty quid per gram?
it's nice that they deliver too
No. And it's rubbish when you rub it on your gums too.
The bloke selling it promised me it was so much purer than the floury shit I usually buy
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The Spanish seem particularly shameless about the "empty-posting". A good friend (and damn good climber - 8c at 18) has just posted onto facebook a shining example. A photo taken a year ago, of a project he hasn't done yet, talking about looking forward to the Semana Santa week off.
In general, it seems to be harmless, but there's one girl in Madrid who's up to her tits in sponsors, but climbs about 6a. By "playing the game", complete with all the hashtag bullshit turned up to 11, she's managed to sell herself as some glamourous wad. "Top 3 in the Zona Centro championships" is a neat way of saying "last, and fell off the third move of the route". She's robbing some really promising climbers of the limelight and making a bad name for female climbers in the area.
Normally, I'd leave said person nameless, but since she cheated in her last competition in order to make finals, here's Tiana's instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BAK66X0MW9l/?taken-by=tianalv96
#wtfisthisshithaseveryonelosttheirminds
Curiosity got to me....
https://www.instagram.com/p/BBpqF-psW2s/?taken-by=tianalv96
I like the #rodeo and #backflip on this one, whereas the rest of the wprld would see it as #abouttofallonyourarse.
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I like the way ukb has now stooped to bullying teenagers with delusions of grandeur
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I like the way ukb has now stooped to bullying teenagers with delusions of grandeur
The little wankers keep reminding us of our lost glory and arthritic fingers.
In my day, kids knew their place and kept quiet about how much better they were than their elders.
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I like the way ukb has now stooped to bullying teenagers with delusions of grandeur
Keeping a strong climbing tradition going...
I'm allowed to be old and bitter now I'm 20 (she's a year younger than me).
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In my day, kids knew their place and kept quiet about how much better they were than their elders.
Yeah. Jerry was famous for his humility as a teenager.
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I like the way ukb has now stooped to bullying teenagers with delusions of grandeur
Who's bullying? Is pointing out the error of your ways bullying?
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I like the way ukb has now stooped to bullying teenagers with delusions of grandeur
Who's bullying? Is pointing out the error of your ways bullying?
nah, but if you're going to start telling off teenagers for their use of social media, you've got a lot of telling off to do. As pointless as my picking up blokes on here for saying "feminazis", "a muscly man" and "dog" when they mean women. I vaguely shake my fist at 'em I guess....
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In my day, kids knew their place and kept quiet about how much better they were than their elders.
Yeah. Jerry was famous for his humility as a teenager.
We were all angels.
There was no deliberately garishly coloured clothes, in defiance of our Army surplus clad elders.
There was no bolting, or "Fuck you I'm going sport climbing".
(~1990 a few of us managed to persuade the RNRMMC to sponsor a sport climbing trip around Europe, for which we had to make a presentation at the AGM. The flack we took and mutterings of "shame" and stifled booing was satisfying in the extreme. I got drunk and fell off my chair during Bonnington's lecture. But after several expedition reports that listed to the ounce the distribution of rations, our blasting heavy metal accompanied slide show, I'd like to think, went a long way to changing that organisation beyond recognition.
And were labelled arogant, narcissistic youths by most of the old guard).
Top roping and dogging actually resulted in abuse being hurled by old crusties on adjacent routes. Remember when you were a dirty cheat, if you couldn't ground up, onsight, with trad gear? Weighting the rope was a cardinal sin?
We were going to destroy the great art of climbing and lose all adventure.
Same shit, different day.
It's just the way it is now.
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Lama was a young narcissistic twat with a heavy social media habit. Then he made the first free ascent of the compressor route.
But at least there's a great deal of substance behind his tacky corporate vomit. A theme of Bisharatt's article - and this thread - is the fairly recent rise of formats that allow unedited (self-edited) media exposure for climbers who have very little of substance behind all of their media spewage.
That must change the game (for those who watch it)..
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So no one here likes Instagram huh? #fuckhashtags
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I do.
I quite like seeing all those exotic destinations and I'm not in the least bit bothered if the climber is doing anything significant or not.
I never thought of it as a news channel, just a place to share pictures.
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So no one here likes Instagram huh? #fuckhashtags
I like it, though the point of discussion I think was whether it, and other social media, were being used or abused in order to gain fame and free shit that the person would not have otherwise been able to achieve through their own actions in reality, whatever that is!
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So no one here likes Instagram huh? #fuckhashtags
I really like Instagram- I only follow good, climbing-related accounts (there are a lot of them) so it's a constantly-updating stream of new climbing pictures from all around the world that I can look at on my phone whenever I'm bored. There's very little to dislike about that really.
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Seems like it's more to do with climbers accusing other climbers of lying, cheating or over glorifying their achievements than it is to do with social media. Saying that social media is a lot quicker way of delivering those messages to the masses as opposed to a few whispered tall tales in the Broady on a Friday night. Luckily we've got people like that climbing rumours dude to show us all the light.
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So no one here likes Instagram huh? #fuckhashtags
I like it, though the point of discussion I think was whether it, and other social media, were being used or abused in order to gain fame and free shit that the person would not have otherwise been able to achieve through their own actions in reality, whatever that is!
As there are 'pro' instagrammers and YouTube channel people (eg it is a method that can be exploited by 'nobody's' for commercial gain) - I don't think climbing is immune to this happening.
So yes.
I only see re tweeted or FB'd instagram pics - which probably skews things - but it does seem to be the social medium of maximum narcissism potential....
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Says you with that profile pic you had professionally done!
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Seems like it's more to do with climbers accusing other climbers of lying, cheating or over glorifying their achievements than it is to do with social media. Saying that social media is a lot quicker way of delivering those messages to the masses as opposed to a few whispered tall tales in the Broady on a Friday night. Luckily we've got people like that climbing rumours dude to show us all the light.
How do you know it's a guy?
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I thought it was a tweet bot powered by fermenting courgettes....
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Seems like it's more to do with climbers accusing other climbers of lying, cheating or over glorifying their achievements than it is to do with social media. Saying that social media is a lot quicker way of delivering those messages to the masses as opposed to a few whispered tall tales in the Broady on a Friday night. Luckily we've got people like that climbing rumours dude to show us all the light.
How do you know it's a guy?
Who knows. Maybe the confused mix of arse kissing and insults. Don't hear that from many women.
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Sounds like Dobbin
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Sounds like Dobbin
Is that a person? :shrug:
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No he's a horse in the same way you're a robot from Star Wars :no:
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Sounds like Dobbin
Is that a person? :shrug:
dobbin (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37) (hasn't posted for quite some time).
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I didn't go climbing today
I am going climbing tomorrow
in The Forest
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Forest, Forest, Forest
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Run Forest, run.
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Having seen the name Alexis Perry in the significant repeats thread I did some googling and found this video. The words at the start and end had me thinking of this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqXVQx2uRVU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqXVQx2uRVU)
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Dai Koyamada just started following me on instagram, so fuck you guys. Dai says Hi......
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He's only worried about your diet
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Speaking of which there's a young lad repeating a lot of his probs at the minute, vids on 8a.narcissism, looks like a talented guy on superb probs!
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Maybe he'll be able to recommend me a decent Dai-et... :tumble:
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2 drums and a cymbal fell off a cliff..... :whatever:
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An interesting article here that could be considered analogous to the current "pseudo-dirtbag" culture (to which I confess to pertaining to).
http://www.factmag.com/2016/03/18/bloc-founder-quits-raves-hipsters-dance-music-safe-boring/
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Nice to read the comments in the Speccie giving him some stick over the disasters that have been recent Bloc events.
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Climbing rumours is not me.
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Did you mean not only you?
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Climbing rumours is not me.
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We need video evidence before anyone will believe you Dob. ;)
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Climbing rumours is not me.
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We need video evidence before anyone will believe you Dob. ;)
Yeah, an unedited vid of you not tweeting...
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https://medium.com/@georgieabel/confessions-of-a-spray-queen-87c7abc5d8e0#.6aovs7gor
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I'll see your Spray Queen, and raise you an Angry John Redhead (does he have another state of being?)
http://footlesscrow.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/sinking-like-stone.html?m=1
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I'll see your Spray Queen, and raise you an Angry John Redhead (does he have another state of being?)
http://footlesscrow.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/sinking-like-stone.html?m=1
FFS.
Because Global warming, Social injustice, et al; all climbing except Trad is wrong?
How dare anyone enjoy anything that he doesn't.
I expect he only uses ropes made from boiled nettles, prepared in a home made clay pot over an open fire (started by "natural" means), gear made from napped flint and squirrel sinews and has never owned a Gortex Jacket or even boots made from farmed cattle.
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I'm guessing you just don't get JR
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I! just! wish! he'd! use! fewer! exclamation! marks! it's! exhausting! to! read!
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imagine what it would be like if he hit Caps Lock
(I assume he would start with "MASSIVE COCK!" or something)
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I like JR but he's starting to sound like many grumpy old men of his generation. He sounds a bit like my Dad tbh :'(
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I consider my finest work for the BMC to be getting him to sign a risk assessment form before picking up his secateurs for the Tremadoc crag clean up. He looked a bit miffed until he could see that I was on the verge of pissing myself laughing at the incongruousness of it all.
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It's a shame his essay doesn't match the clarity of the Bob Dylan lyrics he quoted. What was he doing with that sledge hammer anyway?
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I'm guessing you just don't get JR
Haha that's pretty patronising
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I'm guessing you just don't get JR
Is this a division between those that know they don't get JR and those who don't know that they don't get JR
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What I want to know is who shot the cunt?
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Very good
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I'm guessing you just don't get JR
Is this a division between those that know they don't get JR and those who don't know that they don't get JR
So who doesn't get JR then?
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I'm usually one for the poetic stuff, but I thought that article was a complete pile.
The gist seem to be "John Redhead goes and fucks around in a muddy quarry and thinks that anyone who doesn't is ruining his muddy quarry fucking-around". Well sorry John, but most of my best friends have had their life enriched by the "clean" sport climbing culture. The wall-style "climbing by numbers" he frequently criticises is far less constrictive than his all-or-nothing singular vision for climbing culture.
For all his incredible acomplishments back in the day, he comes across as a bitter old man. If you don't like Beris anymore, fucking move. Take your sledgehammer to some Scottish highland and complain from there.
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I'm usually one for the poetic stuff, but I thought that article was a complete pile.
The gist seem to be "John Redhead goes and fucks around in a muddy quarry and thinks that anyone who doesn't is ruining his muddy quarry fucking-around". Well sorry John, but most of my best friends have had their life enriched by the "clean" sport climbing culture. The wall-style "climbing by numbers" he frequently criticises is far less constrictive than his all-or-nothing singular vision for climbing culture.
For all his incredible acomplishments back in the day, he comes across as a bitter old man. If you don't like Beris anymore, fucking move. Take your sledgehammer to some Scottish highland and complain from there.
Well said. Why did I bother to skim read that drivel? It's like reading a bloody tabloid written by someone with a strong aversion to clarity.
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I'm guessing you just don't get JR
Haha that's pretty patronising
I don't find it so, even if it was meant to be.
We can all read (despite the authors best efforts to prevent that).
However, what I read was the bastard child of Victor Meldrew and a Thesaurus, on acid, during a Psychotic break.
If it was intended as proselytising a better "way", it failed singularly; it's obscurity damning it to all but the ears of the converted.
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It's like a thesaurus on acid, on acid
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I don't like purple blobs either.
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I don't like purple blobs either.
Stick to the red ones then. [emoji12]
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This is a funny response to a very similiar JR rant from years ago that seems worth putting here
http://footlesscrow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/he-who-fell-to-earth-climbers-tale.html
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I'm guessing you just don't get JR
Haha that's pretty patronising
I can be more patronising than that you turd
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https://medium.com/@georgieabel/confessions-of-a-spray-queen-87c7abc5d8e0#.6aovs7gor
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One of the most shit-awful pieces of writing I've ever read on this topic and an example of the downside of the disappearance of editorial filters in the age of social media/blogs etc. Thanks OMM ;D
The TLDR basically amounts to 'I like what I'm doing and I'm not listening nah na na naa na'.
:shit: :shit: :shit:
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But she got lots of 'likes' from teenage girls which is the important thing.
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But she got lots of 'likes' from teenage girls which is the important thing.
Metrics at bottom only indicate 36 "Likes" and 15 "Comments" and whilst you can see the username of those who have commented I can't see how you determine the age and gender of those who "Liked" the article? :shrug:
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https://medium.com/@georgieabel/confessions-of-a-spray-queen-87c7abc5d8e0#.6aovs7gor
This kind of article makes me wish I was well-read in psychology.
my personal highlights include:
"3. It’s hard to understand the point of view of a Spray Queen when you yourself are not a Spray Queen"
"It’s also cool to see companies choosing to give free gear to someone who doesn’t climb 5.15. It’s a very rebellious, fringe, punk rock way of doing things. And that’s totally in line with the personality of our sport."
For me, the crème de la crème was saved until the very last line.
"We just love rock climbing. And you’re gonna hear about it."
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But she got lots of 'likes' from teenage girls which is the important thing.
Metrics at bottom only indicate 36 "Likes" and 15 "Comments" and whilst you can see the username of those who have commented I can't see how you determine the age and gender of those who "Liked" the article? :shrug:
Slackline, some people have something called "imagination" and something called "irony". Sometimes these qualities are used together, to try and raise a smile to make our sad lives less sad.
I think the above is an example of what I'm talking about. But I have no proof.
:P
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This is a funny response to a very similiar JR rant from years ago that seems worth putting here
http://footlesscrow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/he-who-fell-to-earth-climbers-tale.html
Such a good piece by one of today's strongest, boldest climbers! I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with Redhead - on one hand I am in awe at the things he put up back in the day and aspire (mainly in my dreams) to do his routes, but its his rants about stuff that and his "holier than thou" attitude that pisses me off. I really hate people who preach about how others should live their lives when those others aren't harming anyone. lest we not forget he bolted some sport routes on the slate!
However, he does sort of help me out in my previous argumentation on this thread, as basically here is someone who is condemning many of those who previously condemned others who they felt didn't fit in with 'the spirit of climbing'. To my mind proving what a load of :shit: that argument is as its a total sliding scale!!
Climbing is a broad church as long as you can do what you want in the way you want, let everyone else get on with what they are doing...
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I like the Caff/Cosmic Moondog/Spacedog (who is that btw?) article more.
I think there is a place for people like John. Climbing needs its nutters to keep things interesting. I'm not saying we should all adopt his views wholeheartedly and he's flat wrong about plenty of things, but I appreciate that by perching on the extreme end of one side of the seesaw, he helps balance out the hashtag spew going on on the opposite side.
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Yeah I'd agree with that statement.
Cosmic Moondog is Craig Smith I believe...
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Craig is Cosmic Spacedog on FB but have no idea if he is the co-author of that piece - I can well believe he might be though.
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I respect Redhead's climbing achievements. But he's the head shaman of a particular sect of climber/person who likes to mythologise their weekends.
So going trad climbing becomes slaying ones inner demons and having an adventure on the margins of the mind. There is an element of truth in that. But there's also a lot of prolix baloney.
On the other hand, I'd like if he sat at the desk next to me at work because the 'what did you do at the weekend' conversation would be a lot more surprising.
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https://medium.com/@georgieabel/confessions-of-a-spray-queen-87c7abc5d8e0#.6aovs7gor
This kind of article makes me wish I was well-read in psychology.
my personal highlights include:
"3. It’s hard to understand the point of view of a Spray Queen when you yourself are not a Spray Queen"
"It’s also cool to see companies choosing to give free gear to someone who doesn’t climb 5.15. It’s a very rebellious, fringe, punk rock way of doing things. And that’s totally in line with the personality of our sport."
For me, the crème de la crème was saved until the very last line.
"We just love rock climbing. And you’re gonna hear about it."
Their audience is that which has chosen to be such, no more no less.
If you don't follow them, you don't get covered in their spray.
This applies equally to the companies that "sponsor" them.
That "sponsorship" hardly warrants the name and has zero impact on more serious support for those at the cutting edge.
JR's assumed right to protect and direct "his" holy, spiritual, all eclipsing Way-of-the-true-climber is equally banal and meaningless.
They are both shouting, on social media, "This is what makes me happy! Look at me! Give me affirmation!".
If anything, the Spray Queen is more honest.
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but we all know which one has the biggest penis
and that's what counts
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but we all know which one has the biggest penis
and that's what counts
Do you have any specific data to prove that? ;)
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I've seen a paper-mache model of JR's piece
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I've seen a paper-mache model of JR's piece
http://youtu.be/wGKtEB-8IXE?t=4m20s
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Redhead is obviously going to be a marmite character for most people. In my case it's equivalent to marmite appreciation within me - except that I am fairly indifferent to marmite, but find JR simultaneously pompous/obscure/misguided AND inspirational/spot-on, sometimes in the same article. Either way, as someone above said, climbing does need characters...
Crucially, though, although he can be preachy / angsty / holier-than-thou etc etc, the climbing scene bloody well needs people taking someone sort of stand in favour of a deeper / richer / more inspired experience. JR's own motivations might be a bit too arty farty and his own approach might be a bit too confrontational, but the slide of climbing overall into a bland, shallow, number-bagging homogenous sport, oft-characterised by irrelevant "you can do what you want in the way you want" garbage is insidious enough to make his presence and stance worthwhile.
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Redhead is obviously going to be a marmite character for most people. In my case it's equivalent to marmite appreciation within me - except that I am fairly indifferent to marmite, but find JR simultaneously pompous/obscure/misguided AND inspirational/spot-on, sometimes in the same article. Either way, as someone above said, climbing does need characters...
Crucially, though, although he can be preachy / angsty / holier-than-thou etc etc, the climbing scene bloody well needs people taking someone sort of stand in favour of a deeper / richer / more inspired experience. JR's own motivations might be a bit too arty farty and his own approach might be a bit too confrontational, but the slide of climbing overall into a bland, shallow, number-bagging homogenous sport, oft-characterised by irrelevant "you can do what you want in the way you want" garbage is insidious enough to make his presence and stance worthwhile.
But that's just it, you can make it what you want. Others and their opinions only matter if you choose to let it.
If they actively work to prevent your enjoyment of the world, intentionally or otherwise; then I could understand a militant standpoint.
Anything else is you (not You, any old "you") choosing to be affected.
I've expressed an opinion on JR's rant linked above (not JR in toto, that essay) but he affects me not a jot.
And,
Don't let the #'s grind you down.
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I've seen a paper-mache model of JR's piece
http://youtu.be/wGKtEB-8IXE?t=4m20s
... and the award for "Links I Won't Be Clicking At Work" goes to... :lol:
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I've seen a paper-mache model of JR's piece
http://youtu.be/wGKtEB-8IXE?t=4m20s
... and the award for "Links I Won't Be Clicking At Work" goes to... :lol:
Exactly what I was thinking! If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's John chasing a load of people round a town centre with a giant paper mache strap on.
Why? John Redhead, that's why.
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I've seen a paper-mache model of JR's piece
http://youtu.be/wGKtEB-8IXE?t=4m20s
... and the award for "Links I Won't Be Clicking At Work" goes to... :lol:
Exactly what I was thinking! If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's John chasing a load of people round a town centre with a giant paper mache strap on.
Why? John Redhead, that's why.
Because he's on one end of the 'chasing people round a town centre with a giant cock' see saw ;)
(I liked your point earlier Will - I think he adds some bonkers balance to the #spraying)
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Girls blog = pish . John Redhead = gorgeous
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https://medium.com/@georgieabel/confessions-of-a-spray-queen-87c7abc5d8e0#.6aovs7gor
FWIW the author of this piece is the same person who has the ugly vendetta against Andrew Bisharat, to which I alluded on the first page of this thread. I find it impossible to view this as anything other than the wannabe-journalist ramblings of someone has had their tedious self-referential opinions indulged in a nice university liberal arts course for a few years, is now grappling with the inconvenient reality that the world has very little economic need for their "skills" and so hopes to find a niche as a provocative writer on climbing issues.
Love that evisceration, it explains a lot.
Just one thing...
I'm sorry but as a man (at least you were the last time we met and Canada can be a bit odd), I don't think you should be offering an opinion on this unless you have walked 1.6 km in high heels and a dress.
Only Mumra is qualified to address this.
Except JR says she's not, because she's a she.
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Thank you Andy.
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Slightly related to this thread is the following blog-post from Steph Davis in response to an email she received on frustration in climbing...
I think it’s contentious because climbing grades have changed from something intended to provide information to others into a way of ranking who is better than someone else–climbing grades have become inextricably linked to human ego. After a quarter century of climbing, I can safely say I don’t understand climbing grades at all (http://stephdavis.co/blog/climbing-goals-and-frustration/)
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Since irony seems to be difficult to express within the confines of the forum post,
Need a new smiley.... (http://www.schildersmilies.de/schilder/irony.gif)
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Since irony seems to be difficult to express within the confines of the forum post,
Were you being ironic there...?
Shit - this is all going a bit post modern...
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lol
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I'm guessing you just don't get JR
Haha that's pretty patronising
I can be more patronising than that you turd
Nice one :shit:
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Marc-Andre is the absolute dogs bollocks. In all my years I don't think I've been impressed by anyone else as much. Personally, I'd rank him above Hon-Wad for his high risk profile, substance appreciation and different take on life.
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Yeah, totally agree. I have an interview I recorded with him on dictaphone a couple of years ago and I still listen to it now. He's got one of the weirdly calming voices that makes you think it's going to be all ok, despite the fact he's telling you about onsight soloing some back country route that he's only checked the topo out in a climbing shop the day before. His stories of what he got up to in late teenage years are pretty committing. He's had the magic for a long time, but I think people are only just getting that.
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Amazing. Seems like he's got just the right attitude.
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That's the best blog post I've read in ages. The writing flows effortlessly. And what an experience to write about.
It did make me really want to go bouldering.
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It did make me really want to go bouldering.
Now that made I larf.
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He (and Brette Harrington) seem to get a fair bit of coverage in Alpinist. He also got a mention on UKC re his recent soling efforts in Scotland and his Stanley Wall Triple but you're right, he's not well known this side of the pond
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Great mindset and attitude. Love it.
He (and Brette Harrington) seem to get a fair bit of coverage in Alpinist. He also got a mention on UKC re his recent soling efforts in Scotland and his Stanley Wall Triple but you're right, he's not well known this side of the pond
No slight meant (as if anyone could or should towards such a genuine guy and a ledge already at twenty) but it is interesting to me that he needed to be rescued from Darth Vadar - a not particularly nails route. Interesting when you consider the much harder (on paper) terrain he soloed in the lead up to Scotland; and a reminder that no-one is superhuman.
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Interesting piece on Outside about the Iceland rescue and the wider implications of competency vs marketing. I didn't realise Renan was filming them, also manages to skip (probably wisely) the privilege aspect the UK media were so keen on.
http://www.outsideonline.com/2070866/social-media-screwing-over-explorers-iceland-coldest-crossing
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it is interesting to me that he needed to be rescued from Darth Vadar - a not particularly nails route. Interesting when you consider the much harder (on paper) terrain he soloed in the lead up to Scotland; and a reminder that no-one is superhuman.
Could have been down to many things though; out of condition, one harder move just above what is normally bomber gear, coarseness of winter grading, or simply that the bubble just burst.
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Interesting piece on Outside about the Iceland rescue and the wider implications of competency vs marketing. I didn't realise Renan was filming them, also manages to skip (probably wisely) the privilege aspect the UK media were so keen on.
http://www.outsideonline.com/2070866/social-media-screwing-over-explorers-iceland-coldest-crossing
From that article,
Have we reached a point where it is more important for adventurers to be shrewd with presentation than proven in hardcore mountain environments?
Important for what? -
Profile? Being regarded as 'a good climber' by thousands of irrelevant punters who's views don't hold any personal worth? - I'd imagine yes.
Leaving a legacy of visionary hard climbs? Being respected and deemed a great climber by other great climbers and by knowledgeable well-traveled peers (not an internet audience)? - Surely no. Deeds will always speak louder than words over the long term. I hope!
My rough heuristic: if something doesn't appear on my non-facebook, non-twitter and non-instagram equipped radar then self-evidently it isn't worth me paying any attention to. Not that I'm unaware about a lot about of what's happening 'in climbing' but that comes from having spent lots of time in lots of places with lots of people. I'm of the mind that news editors should be similarly experienced and deliberately blinkered. I think this probably happens with most editors: Climb, Alpinist etc. - I remember Ian Parnell telling me about the number of requests he refuses each month from attention-seeking climbers seeking coverage of their non-significant sponsored/charity ascent of '8000m peak xyz' or 'climb abc'.
I like to think anyone who knows a thing or two knows who most of the truly cutting edge wads are, in the various disciplines of climbing. It doesn't go in line with who are working hard developing their profiles. Probably helps to keep a clear mind by deliberately avoiding FBing/twittering though, a theme that seems to be cropping up more and more.
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it is interesting to me that he needed to be rescued from Darth Vadar - a not particularly nails route. Interesting when you consider the much harder (on paper) terrain he soloed in the lead up to Scotland; and a reminder that no-one is superhuman.
Could have been down to many things though; out of condition, one harder move just above what is normally bomber gear, coarseness of winter grading, or simply that the bubble just burst.
Yeah it could have been any of those things. It's just noteworthy that none of those things happened on the terrain he soloed prior to Scotland :o, and then they did on DV
Actually, thinking about it I suppose it hints that you hear about the successful solo's when things go plumy, but not the wise bailings when things aren't right. Just this time it was a busy Ben on a meet. To me the bailings highlight well the sketchiness and skill involved in hard soloing, #fuckthat
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Important for what? -
To get sponsorship or funding, I think. The editors may only report worthwhile stuff, fine, but if the hardcore guys can't get funding then some of the best stuff just isn't going to happen. Meaning editors will have to report less worthwhile stuff, perpetuating the decline.
In (wilderness) photography it is already becoming obvious to me that despite the massive gains in equipment modern work does not have the depth of the older stuff; mainly because making money is so hard you can't commit enough time to it, but also because photographs have become disposable.
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Important for what? -
To get sponsorship or funding, I think. The editors may only report worthwhile stuff, fine, but if the hardcore guys can't get funding then some of the best stuff just isn't going to happen. Meaning editors will
That was a theme I saw in the Thrasher article you linked on here, that those in the media spotlight act as a driving force for future progression, and that to give too much of this spotlight to those with the most noise would hinder this progression. Little Jimmy or Sally will see the news and think an 8c/or a well oiled E8 headpoint is the ceilling they should be aiming for.
I discussed this with Stu and he said some thoughtful things on it that I don't want to make a hash of it trying to remember them here, something along the lines of it's up to to the top climbers themselves to play the game in some aspect as a means of displaying the top level. If they don't want to that's fair enough, but they are contrbuting to the decline just as much as Mr Regardez Moi on Instagram. Stu - correct me if I've got that wrong.
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To a certain extent this is similar to Olympic sports in UK at the moment. I went to a talk with David Florence (Olympic White Water Canoe medalist) about this (he says hi) and allocation of Lottery funding for "mainstream sports" is totally dependent on the performance and results of the top competitors, so the top guys have a huge amount of pressure on them to deliver the goods at every event, as the development of the sport relies on them.
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Important for what? -
To get sponsorship or funding, I think. The editors may only report worthwhile stuff, fine, but if the hardcore guys can't get funding then some of the best stuff just isn't going to happen. Meaning editors will
That was a theme I saw in the Thrasher article you linked on here, that those in the media spotlight act as a driving force for future progression, and that to give too much of this spotlight to those with the most noise would hinder this progression. Little Jimmy or Sally will see the news and think an 8c/or a well oiled E8 headpoint is the ceilling they should be aiming for.
I discussed this with Stu and he said some thoughtful things on it that I don't want to make a hash of it trying to remember them here, something along the lines of it's up to to the top climbers themselves to play the game in some aspect as a means of displaying the top level. If they don't want to that's fair enough, but they are contrbuting to the decline just as much as Mr Regardez Moi on Instagram. Stu - correct me if I've got that wrong.
I see your point, however, by the time little Jimmy and Sally are approaching that 8c/E8; they will be fully aware how far away the pinnacle is.
That pot of sponsorship money grows with the popularity of the sport and the size of the manufacturers looking to advertise. When the Spray Queens tempt the Middle-class dog walkers into emulating that romanticised version of climbing, spending a fortune on High Altitude Mountaineering gear for a ten minute stroll up Haytor, to purchase all that shiny gear that gets used once a year at most; it has little impact on our enjoyment of the art and increases the available pot ten-fold.
I'd wager there is way more money available for serious contenders today than twenty years ago.
There may, of course, also be way more serious contenders vying for a cut...
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That pot of sponsorship money grows with the popularity of the sport and the size of the manufacturers looking to advertise. When the Spray Queens tempt the Middle-class dog walkers into emulating that romanticised version of climbing, spending a fortune on High Altitude Mountaineering gear for a ten minute stroll up Haytor, to purchase all that shiny gear that gets used once a year at most; it has little impact on our enjoyment of the art and increases the available pot ten-fold.
I'd wager there is way more money available for serious contenders today than twenty years ago.
There may, of course, also be way more serious contenders vying for a cut...
The size of any money pot in 'climbing' is close to totally irrelevant to and separate from the progression of climbing standards in some types of climbing - I'd suggest trad, alpine, mixed; and undoubtedly helpful but not essential in others - indoor comps and possibly some trickle-down into sport climbing.
If you disagree then explain why British trad, alpine, winter climbing and sport climbing top standards today are barely better than they were in the 1990s; while sponsorship opportunities today are far greater.
Exceptional climbers climb, you don't need to pay them to be cutting edge, the cream will rise. The best end up getting paid - Ondra, Sharma etc.
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Important for what? -
To get sponsorship or funding, I think. The editors may only report worthwhile stuff, fine, but if the hardcore guys can't get funding then some of the best stuff just isn't going to happen. Meaning editors will have to report less worthwhile stuff, perpetuating the decline.
In (wilderness) photography it is already becoming obvious to me that despite the massive gains in equipment modern work does not have the depth of the older stuff; mainly because making money is so hard you can't commit enough time to it, but also because photographs have become disposable.
If worthwhile stuff goes down when no lens is looking does it count as worthwhile?
Photos - they've become commonplace. A bit like sponsored ambassadors doing average deeds. If you saw Picasso's every day for years they'd lose their value, monetary and asthetic.
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Guy got my position about right. I can understand someone resenting sponsorship cash going to fund uninspiring shit because the climbers involved have a strong media presence. The Mallorca DWS trip mentioned in that article is a prime example. It's just an unremarkable holiday but it produces marketable media, so...
The question is how do you respond to that? I've little patience for a badass climber who doesn't want to produce interesting (and marketable) media products, but still wants sponsors to fund their next trip to climb some vertical choss in the middle of nowhere.
I think that whilst social media has made the "spray queens" and "spray kings" more visible, there's a parallel trend which has attracted less attention. That trend is for the climbers who are out there doing gnarly shit to not tell their stories, and indeed to be a bit sniffy about playing the media "game".
When I grew up much of the inspiring climbing literature was produced by those on the cutting edge themselves - think "View from dead horse point", or Livesey's essays. Wasn't Bonnington such a big part of the pioneering Himalayan trips in part because of his skills as a story teller and fundraiser?
If today's climbing culture is uninspiring that is, in part, because those of us with inspiring stories to tell are not interested in doing so. This creates a space which can be filled by people who don't have an interesting story to tell, but do want to get sponsorship and have some oversaturated photos of their latest dull redpoint to give to sponsors.
In short, Ryan is to blame for our current predicament just as much as SBC.
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That pot of sponsorship money grows with the popularity of the sport and the size of the manufacturers looking to advertise. When the Spray Queens tempt the Middle-class dog walkers into emulating that romanticised version of climbing, spending a fortune on High Altitude Mountaineering gear for a ten minute stroll up Haytor, to purchase all that shiny gear that gets used once a year at most; it has little impact on our enjoyment of the art and increases the available pot ten-fold.
I'd wager there is way more money available for serious contenders today than twenty years ago.
There may, of course, also be way more serious contenders vying for a cut...
The size of any money pot in 'climbing' is close to totally irrelevant to and separate from the progression of climbing standards in some types of climbing - I'd suggest trad, alpine, mixed; and undoubtedly helpful but not essential in others - indoor comps and possibly some trickle-down into sport climbing.
If you disagree then explain why British trad, alpine, winter climbing and sport climbing top standards today are barely better than they were in the 1990s; while sponsorship opportunities today are far greater.
Exceptional climbers climb, you don't need to pay them to be cutting edge, the cream will rise. The best end up getting paid - Ondra, Sharma etc.
Actually, I think that was pretty much my point.
The lack of progression in trad (is there? At a certain point, doesn't "trad" progression simply become "soloing 9b"? Or to put it less confrontationally, taking bigger risks on harder ground?), is more to do with it being less popular than sport/bouldering with top end athletes, surely?
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The dole.
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Guy got my position about right. I can understand someone resenting sponsorship cash going to fund uninspiring shit because the climbers involved have a strong media presence. The Mallorca DWS trip mentioned in that article is a prime example. It's just an unremarkable holiday but it produces marketable media, so...
The question is how do you respond to that? I've little patience for a badass climber who doesn't want to produce interesting (and marketable) media products, but still wants sponsors to fund their next trip to climb some vertical choss in the middle of nowhere.
I think that whilst social media has made the "spray queens" and "spray kings" more visible, there's a parallel trend which has attracted less attention. That trend is for the climbers who are out there doing gnarly shit to not tell their stories, and indeed to be a bit sniffy about playing the media "game".
When I grew up much of the inspiring climbing literature was produced by those on the cutting edge themselves - think "View from dead horse point", or Livesey's essays. Wasn't Bonnington such a big part of the pioneering Himalayan trips in part because of his skills as a story teller and fundraiser?
If today's climbing culture is uninspiring that is, in part, because those of us with inspiring stories to tell are not interested in doing so. This creates a space which can be filled by people who don't have an interesting story to tell, but do want to get sponsorship and have some oversaturated photos of their latest dull redpoint to give to sponsors.
In short, Ryan is to blame for our current predicament just as much as SBC.
Never heard of him.
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Sorry, reply was to Pete. (not that I necessarily disagree)
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OK, but what was the dole and what were circumstances like compared to today...
80s/90s:
A bunch of unemployed skint teens and twenty-somethings surviving on £20 a week, hitching around, dossing in sheds and caves and climbing enough that lots of them got quite good at it.
2016:
A bunch of seemingly fairly privileged teens and twenty-somethings delaying employment following uni, driving around, living in vans/foreign apartments and climbing enough that lots of them get quite good at it - about as good as the good youths in the 80s/90s. And spending lots and lots of time telling the virtual world about it so they can get some free shoes and get to say they're supported by La Wild Face.
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OK, but what was the dole and what were circumstances like compared to today...
80s/90s:
A bunch of unemployed skint teens and twenty-somethings surviving on £20 a week, hitching around, dossing in sheds and caves and climbing enough that lots of them got quite good at it.
2016:
A bunch of seemingly fairly privileged teens and twenty-somethings delaying employment following uni, driving around, living in vans/foreign apartments and climbing enough that lots of them get quite good at it - about as good as the good youths in the 80s/90s. And spending lots and lots of time telling the virtual world about it so they can get some free shoes and get to say they're supported by La Wild Face.
Well, they are, they do and they are no less good because of it.
Advancement of the art will necessarily fall to an ever smaller percentage of the population as we approach the limits of what is humanly possible (I'm aware some think that is a long way off, I'm not so optimistic; I think it's getting close).
I just don't see the Spray Queens as important or damaging to that progression.
I can't see that there is any less advancement, I can only imagine the expansion of the industry provides more opportunities (real sponsorships, that make a massive financial contribution to a young climbers development would be access to training facilities and coaching, not a pair of shoes).
It's certainly not the preserve of the affluent and most of that sponsorship, so bragged about; ammounts to very little in real terms.
Also, if you were to devalue or remove from history, the contributions of those who's independent means allowed them to pursue some esoteric/academic/sporting endeavour; we'd still be lighting candles when the sun set.
It's not right/fair, only inasmuch as we've yet to achieve Utopia (we could, now, with current technology, if we weren't such selfish tossers).
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Also, if you were to devalue or remove from history, the contributions of those who's independent means allowed them to pursue some esoteric/academic/sporting endeavour; we'd still be lighting candles when the sun set.
No we wouldn't. :???:
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Also, if you were to devalue or remove from history, the contributions of those who's independent means allowed them to pursue some esoteric/academic/sporting endeavour; we'd still be lighting candles when the sun set.
No we wouldn't. :???:
Yes we would. [emoji12]
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http://www.outsideonline.com/2070866/social-media-screwing-over-explorers-iceland-coldest-crossing
*content* :wall:
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http://www.outsideonline.com/2070866/social-media-screwing-over-explorers-iceland-coldest-crossing
*content* :wall:
Interesting article that...
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http://www.outsideonline.com/2070866/social-media-screwing-over-explorers-iceland-coldest-crossing
*content* :wall:
Interesting article that...
Yep.
I think there might be something else, that was danced around in there, though. There are differences between the climbing community view that these are Herculean endeavours of the Grand Masters and the perception of the public at large. A new route on an already conquered peak, to Joe Public, is not inspiring; it's a rerun.
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I made some comments earlier in this thread about people needing to take their marketing responsibilities seriously if they want companies to sponsor them. But then I read that article, and I take it all back. Ueli Fucking Steck doesn't have a high enough media profile? What? The world has gone insane.
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http://www.outsideonline.com/2070866/social-media-screwing-over-explorers-iceland-coldest-crossing
*content* :wall:
Interesting article that...
Yep.
I think there might be something else, that was danced around in there, though. There are differences between the way the climbing community view that these are Herculean endeavours of the Grand Masters and the perception of the public at large. A new route on an already conquered peak, to Joe Public, is not inspiring; it's a rerun.
I think the key point is that the non-gods of the climbing world are easier for the companies punters to relate to.
More personal, easier to know, to relate to. EG (And this may be missing loads of things that I've not seen) - but I've seen a few Ueli Steck videos of him doing some amazing (fast often) climbing etc.. but we don't see him getting wankered with his mates, or dancing like a dad at a wedding, or ~ I don't know facing up to the camera and talking about failure or the hard stuff he's done. I bet he's a lovely bloke, but what he does is so different from what I can ever do its hard to relate to. Of course great scenery, thrills etc.. all work as being interesting/great to watch...
The best vid I've seen this year is of that mad Kiwi dancing around in his Dungarees - OK, he climbs a nails problem in a moderately heart racing way, but you warm to his character and become engaged in his exploits and his journey that way...
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Of course, things could be worse; at least SBC et al don't sing about it...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=itvvFfeLh84&feature=youtu.be
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Guy got my position about right. I can understand someone resenting sponsorship cash going to fund uninspiring shit because the climbers involved have a strong media presence. The Mallorca DWS trip mentioned in that article is a prime example. It's just an unremarkable holiday but it produces marketable media, so...
The question is how do you respond to that? I've little patience for a badass climber who doesn't want to produce interesting (and marketable) media products, but still wants sponsors to fund their next trip to climb some vertical choss in the middle of nowhere.
I think that whilst social media has made the "spray queens" and "spray kings" more visible, there's a parallel trend which has attracted less attention. That trend is for the climbers who are out there doing gnarly shit to not tell their stories, and indeed to be a bit sniffy about playing the media "game".
When I grew up much of the inspiring climbing literature was produced by those on the cutting edge themselves - think "View from dead horse point", or Livesey's essays. Wasn't Bonnington such a big part of the pioneering Himalayan trips in part because of his skills as a story teller and fundraiser?
If today's climbing culture is uninspiring that is, in part, because those of us with inspiring stories to tell are not interested in doing so. This creates a space which can be filled by people who don't have an interesting story to tell, but do want to get sponsorship and have some oversaturated photos of their latest dull redpoint to give to sponsors.
In short, Ryan is to blame for our current predicament just as much as SBC.
I agree but I think the internet and social media have changed things. Back in the day magazines only came out once a month, even Ryan could probably get in 1 mag a year. These days there's a desire pressure for Daily updates. No sane person would want to do that, it's exhausting, so we're left with the insane spray kings and queens. Quality inevitably becomes secondary to quantity in this scenario.
Is it top climbers fault for not contributing enough or the industry/consumers fault for wanting something right now, with a #filtered picture?
Answer in less than 140 character please.
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I'm not interested in what these people do
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More relevant comment: http://www.mountainsandwater.com/2016/04/why-sponsorship-is-such-thing.html
In short, Ryan is to blame for our current predicament just as much as SBC.
No. I remember reading a rant by a musician's manager after the musician had just given a disastrous interview. 'Why do you expect this guy to be articulate?' he said, 'He's a genius musician, if you want to understand his genius listen to the music.' He was biased, of course, but he made a valid point. (Guess who for a wad point...)
Climbing is big enough that it should be able to support genius talent without them having to be their own self-publicist. Some will be able to do both and all power to them. But both aren't required in almost any other sport. Performance is all. If we want our biggest talents to thrive they need support.
Meanwhile, folk who have a talent for telling stories through words or pictures should have a think about what stories they might want to tell. It might be easy ego gratification to use your talent to promote yourself, but long term you've got far more chance of producing something of lasting worth by teaming up with those who are doing the amazing stuff.
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http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4089
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Climbing is big enough that it should be able to support genius talent without them having to be their own self-publicist....
But both aren't required in almost any other sport. Performance is all.
I see what you're trying to say but in all honesty I completely disagree with all of it!
Why on earth "should" climbing support talent for talent's sake? If it's not in a companies self interest do you want them to do it out of altruism?
The second sentence is either wilfully blind or hopelessly naive. Personality and appearance have always played as big a role in attracting sponsorship as performance. Compare Usain Bolt and David Rudisha if you want an example.
To continue using Ryan as an example, I don't necessarily expect him to be articulate as well, but he could try and persuade a photographer/writer to cover his exploits. But instead I get the impression that he can't be arsed with that kind of thing. Which is fine. But the inevitable consequence is that sponsors will prefer to support an 8c climber with a photographer mate and an active Instagram account. Blaming the climbing companies for this just reminds me of young kids complaining that life isn't fair.
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- but I've seen a few Ueli Steck videos of him doing some amazing (fast often) climbing etc.. but we don't see him getting wankered with his mates,
I was, just today, climbing with a mate from Chamonix (who was en route to Aberdeen to go offshore) who actually managed to get Ueli pissed at a party in Chamonix. Shame no video was taken. Apparently £10k fines were threatened by the police, so it must have got rowdy. Shame I missed that one.
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Why on earth "should" climbing support talent for talent's sake? If it's not in a companies self interest do you want them to do it out of altruism?
Have you read Chouinard's book Let my people go surfing? He says that Patagonia repeatedly made decisions that all the experts told them would be terrible for business. In every case the opposite happened.
I'm not convinced there is any concrete business acumen driving the change we're seeing. It's just a fashion for likes. I bet it won't be very long before a brand takes the opposite tack - the guys using our gear are way too hardcore to be on social media.
Without the basic objective measures of performance present in most sports, climbing has always been more subjective. We learn early on that the hardest stuff doesn't happen in an arena. We value veracity. What other sport has a code of ethics instead of rules? The current debate on both sides of the atlantic suggests a lot of people are saying 'hold on, what?' Basically I don't think climbers are going to lap up happy-vibe instagram posts as the real deal.
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I agree that some climbers won't lap up this stuff, but depressingly there may be many climbers who will, and the demographic of who buys outdoor gear seems to be changing a lot. I could see it going both ways.
I agree that the climbing companies are arguably being short sighted. Or perhaps it's just a lack of vision and effort; they could be the ones suggesting packing Ryan and Caff off on some road trip with a couple of cameras and a man with a pen. If that didn't end up producing a load of stuff worth reading and putting on posters I'd be surprised.
On the other hand, maybe it wouldn't be very interesting to the teenager whose idol is Shauna.
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packing Ryan ... off on some road trip with a couple of cameras
This happened once and resulted in the best climbing film ever made. It should be done repeatedly.
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I agree that the climbing companies are arguably being short sighted. Or perhaps it's just a lack of vision and effort; they could be the ones suggesting packing Ryan and Caff off on some road trip with a couple of cameras and a man with a pen. If that didn't end up producing a load of stuff worth reading and putting on posters I'd be surprised.
to be fair, DMM sent Ray Wood out to Ireland with them last summer and think they got some cool pics, though it didn't seem to be shouted about as much as it could have been. Not sure if Ray got any footage either or just pics. He may well have done but just hasn't got round to editing it yet... in fact maybe Ricky got some footage? I can't remember tbh
However, I can see all sides of the argument. (Those splinters are really right up my arse) It frustrates me that people like Caff, Ryan and P Robins got dropped by 5.10 (well Caff left in protest - very principled) but equally I sort of feel that nothing in life is free and I enjoy reading about inspiring climbing exploits, they dont necessarily have to be really hard - people like Cedar Wright and Brittany Griffiths aren't cutting edge but they do cool shit which I enjoy hearing about.
I think a major part of the rise of substandard sponsored heroes and everyone hearing about them is down to the internet. Something I guess I played a part in when I worked for the Evil Empire AKA UKC. I was under pressure to try and get something new up everyday or close to every day, which obviously meant I had to often report on people climbing 8b+ or 8c or onsighting E7 or even headpointing E8. I gave it some thought at the time but was mainly focussing on trying to find out about, and then get the info on, the good stuff which was often quite time consuming.
Fortunately, we still have total weapons like Oli Grounsell, Jim Pope and William Bosi etc coming through to take on where Caff and Ryan will eventually leave off (though hopefully not for a while yet) I still feel that British Climbing is healthy in all its forms - even trad as E8 G-Ups/flashes are becoming a little more regular. and everyone is free to go about climbing in exactly the way they want IMO it is very free at the minute.
Plus
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Nice vid and some good words here that I thought might apply to the climbing today thread.
https://vimeo.com/166991542
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Fortunately, we still have total weapons like Oli Grounsell, Jim Pope and William Bosi etc coming through
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=weapon
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John's still spitting:
http://footlesscrow.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/terra-pericilosa-speak-why-you-are-here.html
The first half ties in with this topic, with the usual sexism and meandering narrative.
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Why did he have to write the front half (again)? There are some potentially interesting ideas in the rest. Truth be told, I've deliberately steered clear of this thread. Bar probably only Webbo and one or two others, I'm older and have been around in climbing (1978) and seen more change than anyone else here. It would be easy for me to be a grumpy old man ... and yet, even though much has changed, even though my own involvement has diminished, I still think climbing is the most incredible thing. I don't want to wallow in nostalgia and complaint and regret. It sorrows me a little when a character as rich and creative as JR lapses into that. Let's celebrate, not corral.
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Who gets bummed by a BMC employee…?
I'd like to know the answer to this too.
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Nice vid and some good words here that I thought might apply to the climbing today thread.
https://vimeo.com/166991542
Really liked that, reminded me of persepolis
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Pm'd you Doylo ;)
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Rodney knows.. :punk:
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I bet the Messenger Pigeon was involved
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I get to meet plenty of "characters" through my work (mental health and substance misuse)
unsurprisingly, many of them have been involved in climbing to varying degrees
because I am wacky and anarchic, I haven't used any sort of consistency or methodical thinking in coming to the idea that it is not just the clean and sporty image of climbing that reduces their involvement in the game
compared to The Age of Characters, significant diversions from climbing now include - really fucking strong weed is easy to come by (it's hard to find old school standard hash or weed) - as is crack - and alcohol is more affordable (it's easy enough to remain alcohol dependent on £5 per day)
just my observations
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And on that note...
http://www.rockandice.com/video-gallery/the-aid-climbing-rant
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Even though it wasn't raining, I climbed indoors after work yesterday
It was a delight to see the variety of humans enjoying climbing - from little kids flying up stuff that I struggled on to the groups of people even older than Shark having a sociable bumble - there were even people with bigger waistlines than myself having fun
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Even though it wasn't raining, I climbed indoors after work yesterday
It was a delight to see the variety of humans enjoying climbing - from little kids flying up stuff that I struggled on to the groups of people even older than Shark having a sociable bumble - there were even people with bigger waistlines than myself having fun
Where's the hashtags? Eh? #fail
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Even though it wasn't raining, I climbed indoors after work yesterday
It was a delight to see the variety of humans enjoying climbing - from little kids flying up stuff that I struggled on to the groups of people even older than Shark having a sociable bumble - there were even people with bigger waistlines than myself having fun
Good post
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Why did he have to write the front half (again)? There are some potentially interesting ideas in the rest. Truth be told, I've deliberately steered clear of this thread. Bar probably only Webbo and one or two others, I'm older and have been around in climbing (1978) and seen more change than anyone else here. It would be easy for me to be a grumpy old man ... and yet, even though much has changed, even though my own involvement has diminished, I still think climbing is the most incredible thing. I don't want to wallow in nostalgia and complaint and regret. It sorrows me a little when a character as rich and creative as JR lapses into that. Let's celebrate, not corral.
^^This. I've always been in awe of Readhead despite feeling uncomfortable with the misogyny, but if you take the flowery language away that blog is just a stereotypical old man's whinge about the good old days. To me now at least, one of the most enriching things about climbing is how much more diverse it has become. I can climb or talk about climbing and have something in common with people as varied as a friends young child who is just getting into comps, to an old buddy who loves pottering about on VDiffs to help keep the beer belly at bay. Climbing is too awesome a thing to so many people, for different reasons, to be narrowly defined in the way Readhead wishes it to be. And he's completely fucking wrong if he thinks there are no characters around anymore!
P.S about the bumming. It wasn't me. Well at least, I cannot recall......
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About the bumming. Isn't there a photo taken in Morocco?
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Totally agree. Thinking the '80s Llanberis scene is the focal point of the entire history of the (climbing) is just as sad as the owd gits on Supertopo who think the same about 1970s Yosemite
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Can we have the bumming item separated from this thread, and preferably made into a sticky thread too?
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I think this is what Sheavills is referring to. Everyone's favorite guidebook author getting his just desserts:
(http://i.imgur.com/dbPh7qo.jpg?1)
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Redhead! - for "someone" who is! so alert! to the "wonder" and! mystery! of the "world" he doesn't half come across as a "miserable", "bitter" moaning! so-and-so! "!" "....."
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Redhead! - for "someone" who is! so alert! to the "wonder" and! mystery! of the "world" he doesn't half come across as a "miserable", "bitter" moaning! so-and-so! "!" "....."
When I said that, I was told I just didn't "get" him and was puntered.
Oh yeah.
!!!
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He's just bitter because the kids won't play on his lawn
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I think this is what Sheavills is referring to. Everyone's favorite guidebook author getting his just desserts:
(http://i.imgur.com/dbPh7qo.jpg?1)
that's disappointing
I was expecting a photo of Dennis Gray making sweet, consensual man love to Johnny Dawes
oh well
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I was more interested in where the desserts is?
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It's just south of Tafroute in Morocco. Took a day trip down there when staying at the Kasbah Tizourgane and climbing in the Jebel El Kest. If you get the chance, go it's total waddage.
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John's still spitting:
http://footlesscrow.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/terra-pericilosa-speak-why-you-are-here.html
The first half ties in with this topic, with the usual sexism and meandering narrative.
I couldn't finish that garbage. It's a pity JR isn't a more talented writer. He can't seem to say anything interesting without losing the thread and descending into jibberish dressed up in flowers.
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He's definitely better at cock art.
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I've got an idea, let's go down the wall and do 20-30 mins of ancap on on the circuit board at prime time on a Tuesday :spank:
Edit: Aero cap :rtfm:
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I've got an idea, let's go down the wall and do 20-30 mins of ancap on on the circuit board at prime time on a Tuesday :spank:
Edit: Aero cap :rtfm:
:guilty: and possibly worse...
I've tried using the auto belay next to it but the holds are brand new and feel like broken glass after a few laps.
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Just ask them to move...
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Just ask them to move...
Haha, true. But they looked scary.
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Good writing and a lot of it rings true.
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Sorry but I got as far as the photo of the guy in the yellow T-shirt and stopped reading. Didn't want to know anything about the people concerned after that.
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When Feminism Goes Too Far by Davita Gurian (http://eveningsends.com/when-feminism-goes-too-far/)
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tl;dr (unreadable waffle, anyone who includes a dictionary definition of a common word in a non-ironic manner should take remedial classes.)
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The definition stopped me too.
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I don't mind the opinion piece, and I have no opinion on the content (I didn't get far enough to find out what was proposed, and I feel that it is a subject where my opinions and experiences have no value). I just found the writing very far from quality; this—at least—I'm allowed to judge on a thread under the “quality writing” heading.
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I thought there were a few good points in there. We've all read much, much worse I'm sure.
Perhaps we need a "not great but not shit climbing articles" thread.
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Perhaps we need a "not great but not shit climbing articles" thread.
Non-quality chuffing articles?
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Perhaps we need a "not great but not shit climbing articles" thread.
Non-quality chuffing articles?
Current protocol suggests that thread would be reserved for A: articles forum members had written, regardless of quality, and B: genuinely shit articles by anyone.
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That article on 'complaint feminism' is timely what with comments made on here about Andy Kirkpatrick's twitter feed and him linking to articles/talks about 'grievance feminism'.
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Would it be bad taste to suggest it goes in a DeadFeministBirdsWithGrievanceswhoClimb thread?
If so I won't.
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'Regular bird' - to damn with faint praise!
Yeah, I meant as the voice against DFBWGwGC.
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It's almost if you're suggesting it's somehow 'bad' to take more interest, initially, in whether a member of the opposite sex is sexually attractive than whether or not what they're arguing for is compelling, interesting, informed or relevant etc. :unsure:
(I clicked on her profile pic halfway through reading. I only checked instagram after you mentioned it. Just to make sure)
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https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/badass-edinburgh-photo-shows-two-15914541
Some old school DFBs
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Actually saved that photo on my phone, a couple of months back, when it cropped up on a mate’s Insta feed.
I just had to show my daughters.
And, they’re as good as soloing! Actually, worse, because if one goes their both off, unless luck is feeling generous that day...
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Doesn’t even look that easy.
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Doesn’t even look that easy.
No, it doesn't. Can anyone identify where it is?
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Wow, that's amazing! Thank you.
Loving the three finger drag :clap2:
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No, it doesn't. Can anyone identify where it is?
Looks like Salisbury crag in Edinburgh (and I thought that even before I saw it says that under the photo. Honest)
As to where on the crag I haven't a clue. Climbing only (legally) happens in the quarry now but back it could've been anywhere.
As for the hats and skirts in combo with the 3 finger drag :bow: