[Stu Littlefair]

Climbing is big enough that it should be able to support genius talent without them having to be their own self-publicist....

But both aren't required in almost any other sport. Performance is all.

I see what you're trying to say but in all honesty I completely disagree with all of it!

Why on earth "should" climbing support talent for talent's sake? If it's not in a companies self interest do you want them to do it out of altruism?

The second sentence is either wilfully blind or hopelessly naive. Personality and appearance have always played as big a role in attracting sponsorship as performance. Compare Usain Bolt and David Rudisha if you want an example.

To continue using Ryan as an example, I don't necessarily expect him to be articulate as well, but he could try and persuade a photographer/writer to cover his exploits. But instead I get the impression that he can't be arsed with that kind of thing. Which is fine. But the inevitable consequence is that sponsors will prefer to support an 8c climber with a photographer mate and an active Instagram account. Blaming the climbing companies for this just reminds me of young kids complaining that life isn't fair.

[Fultonius]

- but I've seen a few Ueli Steck videos of him doing some amazing (fast often) climbing etc.. but we don't see him getting wankered with his mates,

I was, just today, climbing with a mate from Chamonix (who was en route to Aberdeen to go offshore) who actually managed to get Ueli pissed at a party in Chamonix. Shame no video was taken. Apparently £10k fines were threatened by the police, so it must have got rowdy. Shame I missed that one.

[Johnny Brown]

Why on earth "should" climbing support talent for talent's sake? If it's not in a companies self interest do you want them to do it out of altruism?

Have you read Chouinard's book Let my people go surfing? He says that Patagonia repeatedly made decisions that all the experts told them would be terrible for business. In every case the opposite happened.

I'm not convinced there is any concrete business acumen driving the change we're seeing. It's just a fashion for likes. I bet it won't be very long before a brand takes the opposite tack - the guys using our gear are way too hardcore to be on social media.

Without the basic objective measures of performance present in most sports, climbing has always been more subjective. We learn early on that the hardest stuff doesn't happen in an arena. We value veracity. What other sport has a code of ethics instead of rules? The current debate on both sides of the atlantic suggests a lot of people are saying 'hold on, what?' Basically I don't think climbers are going to lap up happy-vibe instagram posts as the real deal.

[Stu Littlefair]

I agree that some climbers won't lap up this stuff, but depressingly there may be many climbers who will, and the demographic of who buys outdoor gear seems to be changing a lot. I could see it going both ways.

I agree that the climbing companies are arguably being short sighted. Or perhaps it's just a lack of vision and effort; they could be the ones suggesting packing Ryan and Caff off on some road trip with a couple of cameras and a man with a pen. If that didn't end up producing a load of stuff worth reading and putting on posters I'd be surprised. 

On the other hand, maybe it wouldn't be very interesting to the teenager whose idol is Shauna.


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[andy_e]

packing Ryan ... off on some road trip with a couple of cameras

This happened once and resulted in the best climbing film ever made. It should be done repeatedly.

[Duncan campbell]

I agree that the climbing companies are arguably being short sighted. Or perhaps it's just a lack of vision and effort; they could be the ones suggesting packing Ryan and Caff off on some road trip with a couple of cameras and a man with a pen. If that didn't end up producing a load of stuff worth reading and putting on posters I'd be surprised. 

to be fair, DMM sent Ray Wood out to Ireland with them last summer and think they got some cool pics, though it didn't seem to be shouted about as much as it could have been. Not sure if Ray got any footage either or just pics. He may well have done but just hasn't got round to editing it yet... in fact maybe Ricky got some footage? I can't remember tbh

However, I can see all sides of the argument. (Those splinters are really right up my arse) It frustrates me that people like Caff, Ryan and P Robins got dropped by 5.10 (well Caff left in protest - very principled) but equally I sort of feel that nothing in life is free and I enjoy reading about inspiring climbing exploits, they dont necessarily have to be really hard -  people like Cedar Wright and Brittany Griffiths aren't cutting edge but they do cool shit which I enjoy hearing about.

I think a major part of the rise of substandard sponsored heroes and everyone hearing about them is down to the internet. Something I guess I played a part in when I worked for the Evil Empire AKA UKC. I was under pressure to try and get something new up everyday or close to every day, which obviously meant I had to often report on people climbing 8b+ or 8c or onsighting E7 or even headpointing E8. I gave it some thought at the time but was mainly focussing on trying to find out about, and then get the info on, the good stuff which was often quite time consuming.

Fortunately, we still have total weapons like Oli Grounsell, Jim Pope and William Bosi etc coming through to take on where Caff and Ryan will eventually leave off (though hopefully not for a while yet) I still feel that British Climbing is healthy in all its forms - even trad as E8 G-Ups/flashes are becoming a little more regular. and everyone is free to go about climbing in exactly the way they want IMO it is very free at the minute.

Plus

[user deactivated]

Nice vid and some good words here that I thought might apply to the climbing today thread.

[SA Chris]

Fortunately, we still have total weapons like Oli Grounsell, Jim Pope and William Bosi etc coming through

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=weapon

[Will Hunt]

John's still spitting:
http://footlesscrow.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/terra-pericilosa-speak-why-you-are-here.html

The first half ties in with this topic, with the usual sexism and meandering narrative.

[andy popp]

Why did he have to write the front half (again)? There are some potentially interesting ideas in the rest. Truth be told, I've deliberately steered clear of this thread. Bar probably only Webbo and one or two others, I'm older and have been around in climbing (1978) and seen more change than anyone else here. It would be easy for me to be a grumpy old man ... and yet, even though much has changed, even though my own involvement has diminished, I still think climbing is the most incredible thing. I don't want to wallow in nostalgia and complaint and regret. It sorrows me a little when a character as rich and creative as JR lapses into that. Let's celebrate, not corral.

[Doylo]

Who gets bummed by a BMC employee…?

I'd like to know the answer to this too.

[Wood FT]

Nice vid and some good words here that I thought might apply to the climbing today thread.

Really liked that, reminded me of persepolis

[a dense loner]

Pm'd you Doylo 

[Gritter]

Rodney knows..

[Doylo]

I bet the Messenger Pigeon was involved

[lagerstarfish]

I get to meet plenty of "characters" through my work (mental health and substance misuse)

unsurprisingly, many of them have been involved in climbing to varying degrees

because I am wacky and anarchic, I haven't used any sort of consistency or methodical thinking in coming to the idea that it is not just the clean and sporty image of climbing that reduces their involvement in the game

compared to The Age of Characters, significant diversions from climbing now include - really fucking strong weed is easy to come by (it's hard to find old school standard hash or weed) -  as is crack - and alcohol is more affordable (it's easy enough to remain alcohol dependent on £5 per day)

just my observations

[Oldmanmatt]

And on that note...

http://www.rockandice.com/video-gallery/the-aid-climbing-rant


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[lagerstarfish]

Even though it wasn't raining, I climbed indoors after work yesterday

It was a delight to see the variety of humans enjoying climbing - from little kids flying up stuff that I struggled on to the groups of people even older than Shark having a sociable bumble - there were even people with bigger waistlines than myself having fun

[tomtom]

Even though it wasn't raining, I climbed indoors after work yesterday

It was a delight to see the variety of humans enjoying climbing - from little kids flying up stuff that I struggled on to the groups of people even older than Shark having a sociable bumble - there were even people with bigger waistlines than myself having fun

Where's the hashtags? Eh? #fail

[Duma]

Even though it wasn't raining, I climbed indoors after work yesterday

It was a delight to see the variety of humans enjoying climbing - from little kids flying up stuff that I struggled on to the groups of people even older than Shark having a sociable bumble - there were even people with bigger waistlines than myself having fun

Good post

[danm]

Why did he have to write the front half (again)? There are some potentially interesting ideas in the rest. Truth be told, I've deliberately steered clear of this thread. Bar probably only Webbo and one or two others, I'm older and have been around in climbing (1978) and seen more change than anyone else here. It would be easy for me to be a grumpy old man ... and yet, even though much has changed, even though my own involvement has diminished, I still think climbing is the most incredible thing. I don't want to wallow in nostalgia and complaint and regret. It sorrows me a little when a character as rich and creative as JR lapses into that. Let's celebrate, not corral.

^^This. I've always been in awe of Readhead despite feeling uncomfortable with the misogyny, but if you take the flowery language away that blog is just a stereotypical old man's whinge about the good old days. To me now at least, one of the most enriching things about climbing is how much more diverse it has become. I can climb or talk about climbing and have something in common with people as varied as a friends young child who is just getting into comps, to an old buddy who loves pottering about on VDiffs to help keep the beer belly at bay. Climbing is too awesome a thing to so many people, for different reasons, to be narrowly defined in the way Readhead wishes it to be. And he's completely fucking wrong if he thinks there are no characters around anymore!

P.S about the bumming. It wasn't me. Well at least, I cannot recall......

[sheavi]

About the bumming. Isn't there a photo taken in Morocco?

[Muenchener]

Totally agree. Thinking the '80s Llanberis scene is the focal point of the entire history of the (climbing) is just as sad as the owd gits on Supertopo who think the same about 1970s Yosemite

[Fiend]

Can we have the bumming item separated from this thread, and preferably made into a sticky thread too?

[danm]

I think this is what Sheavills is referring to. Everyone's favorite guidebook author getting his just desserts: