[galpinos]

The exposure versus ability thing is not just a climbing phenomena. Sharipova was (until recently!) one of the highest earning tennis players in the world, despite being far from the highest achieving.

She has been the highest earning female sportsperson for the past ten years, not just in tennis and not just "one of" the highest. However, she has been near the top of her sport since she won Wimbledon at 17, she has won every Grand Slam and, had it not been for her shoulder issues, could well have gone on to win more. It's not like she's Anna Kournikova.

However, Sharapova also puts a lot of effort into getting and maintaining her sponsorship. She's been known, when in a nightclub, to peel the label of the bottle of water she's drinking if it isn't a brand she has endorsed, lest a pap gets a photo of her.

Back on climbing, having been on the "I can't believe SBC gets all the coverage she does", I actually agree with erm, sam. She doesn't seem to. Apart from the Climb X advert in Alpinist*, unless I followed her on social media, I wouldn't know who she was. She's not exactly sponsored by any big brands. It is, as pointed out by many above, an "opt in" culture.

*which does make me die a little inside every time I see it as firstly, the shoes look properly shit, and secondly, for such an amazing magazine full of inspiring stories, articles and imagery to have a crap photo of a hot-panted girl either putting her shoes on or hanging off two massive jugs on a V3, the equivalent of the shit instagram photo everyone is complaining about above, but in print in Alpinist)

[Will Hunt]

I don't have Instagram and don't look there unless linked to it on here or elsewhere. I don't think you have to subscribe to it personally to be affected by it. If your peers in the wider community subscribe to this stuff, place value in it, and even seek to emulate it then it does affect you. If the people who don't engage in the social media splurging are viewed as the exception rather than the rule then the nature of the sport has changed, in my opinion not for the better.

[galpinos]

I would say my climbing peers aren't really affected by it as they are either my age or older (apart from Falling Down, he loves a bit of Instagram despite being an old duffer....). as much as I like looking at cool climbing/skiing/surfing pics from far flung corners of the world, I don't place any "value" on them.

However, if it is affecting the youth (are you still in that category Will?) then it is an issue as it could well change the nature of the climbing.

[Oldmanmatt]

I would say my climbing peers aren't really affected by it as they are either my age or older (apart from Falling Down, he loves a bit of Instagram despite being an old duffer....). as much as I like looking at cool climbing/skiing/surfing pics from far flung corners of the world, I don't place any "value" on them.

However, if it is affecting the youth (are you still in that category Will?) then it is an issue as it could well change the nature of the climbing.

It's odd, when I stop and think.
I've got one album from a '92-'93, 9 month Exped to Antarctica/South Georgia, with ~80 photos and that's way more than any other trip until I bought my first digital camera in 2003. I have hardly any photos of anything much before the digital camera and a whole bunch are on slides (in my parents attic) that are unlikely to ever see the light of day again!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Will Hunt]

However, if it is affecting the youth (are you still in that category Will?) then it is an issue as it could well change the nature of the climbing.

Desperately trying to cling to youth despite having checked out mentally if not physically some time ago. I'm 26 and climb with people between the ages of early twenties to early 60s. Whenever I get the camera out in front of my pensioner pal I get the piss taken out of me 
My justification is that I'm trying to promote the lesser known crags and boulders in what I hope is a relatively dry way.


Edited: realised I didn't even know how old I was...

[Duncan campbell]

I don't have Instagram and don't look there unless linked to it on here or elsewhere. I don't think you have to subscribe to it personally to be affected by it. If your peers in the wider community subscribe to this stuff, place value in it, and even seek to emulate it then it does affect you. If the people who don't engage in the social media splurging are viewed as the exception rather than the rule then the nature of the sport has changed, in my opinion not for the better.

But the nature of climbing itself hasn't changed!?!? Whether or not I post a photo of myself tensing my muscles whilst not actually topping that classic 8A has literally no bearing on your experience of climbing it does it Will? 

If a narcissist posts a photo to instagram but no-ones sees it does it have any affect on anyones climbing? Answer: no shirley?

Another example; I hear loads of people berate those who use forums (fair enough) so do you all feel like you are negatively affecting the culture of climbing? Of course you don't! But are you willing to accept that you might be? i.e read the Brian Cropper obit. on UKC he wasn't into forums and people asking for beta "wheres the adventure in that?" he'd say.

I get the argument with regards to kids coming into climbing. It would be really shit if no-one coming into climbing thought you could be a passionate talented climber without heavy use of instagram etc, but in reality I think a) kids grow up and make their own decisions and b) there are enough gnarly, passionate lifers to provide a good example of another way.

Maybe it is worse for those who are almost exclusively boulderers or sport climbers? Is it annoying that these strong kids are pissing your projects whilst hashtagging the soul out of your life's ambition?

I'd just say maybe you should look at yourselves deeper if this is the case.

I'm regularly burnt off by every hashtagger and his tweeting dog. It literally makes no difference to how I feel about what I climb I know I'm shit, I know I love climbing and I see climbing as being pretty healthy. Yep there are some who seem obsessed with trying to become sponsored but you get loads of different people climbing and its going to happen.

I dont ever look at twitter but I do look at and occasionally post on instagram. it keeps me amused at lunch or in the queue to pay for my shopping. maybe im part of the problem... #fictionlabschalk #brandofthenarcissistic   

[Stu Littlefair]

I have very little to add that hasn't already been said.

I would like to point out that, as a group, we seem fine with someone dedicating the most useful and productive hours/weeks/months/years of their life to sculpting their own body into a shape that allows them to pursue their own dreams by achieving a goal that, frankly, only they care about. 

Yet if they post a picture on instagram we call that narcissistic.

[abarro81]

Its not entirely 'opt in' - to get rid of this stuff from my fb feed I'd have to defriend everyone who likes the stuff... That may be a good plan however!

[Bonjoy]

I have very little to add that hasn't already been said.

I would like to point out that, as a group, we seem fine with someone dedicating the most useful and productive hours/weeks/months/years of their life to sculpting their own body into a shape that allows them to pursue their own dreams by achieving a goal that, frankly, only they care about. 

Yet if they post a picture on instagram we call that narcissistic.

Climbing/life is full of egotists, everyone is one to a greater or lesser extent. I thought the point with climbing was that you demonstrated to your peers how great you were rather than told them.

[galpinos]

Its not entirely 'opt in' - to get rid of this stuff from my fb feed I'd have to defriend everyone who likes the stuff... That may be a good plan however!

It's not our fault your mates are narcissistic wankers and clickbait addicts......

[Will Hunt]

I think you've missed the point.

But the nature of climbing itself hasn't changed!?!? Whether or not I post a photo of myself tensing my muscles whilst not actually topping that classic 8A has literally no bearing on your experience of climbing it does it Will? 

If a narcissist posts a photo to instagram but no-ones sees it does it have any affect on anyones climbing? Answer: no shirley?

If climbing for you starts when you step onto the rock and ends when you top out then maybe. For almost everybody I suspect this is not the case and they like to engage with the wider culture of climbing. People buy magazines, read biographies, listen to podcasts, post on social media, and sign up to internet message boards all to do with climbing. I don't know how you can do any of these things and claim to not care what goes on in the climbing scene.

Another example; I hear loads of people berate those who use forums (fair enough) so do you all feel like you are negatively affecting the culture of climbing? Of course you don't! But are you willing to accept that you might be? i.e read the Brian Cropper obit. on UKC he wasn't into forums and people asking for beta "wheres the adventure in that?" he'd say.

This isn't really relevant to what we're discussing. Brian may have had a point ten years ago about people sharing beta on public forums, arguing that the adventure was being chipped out of climbing. I refuse to believe, however, that nobody every came into the YHA in Manchester and asked what size wire you needed for route X. The game has never changed in that respect, just the way in which people shared the information. What we're talking about here is a recent explosion of empty narcissism in climbing.

I get the argument with regards to kids coming into climbing. It would be really shit if no-one coming into climbing thought you could be a passionate talented climber without heavy use of instagram etc

I wouldn't be so sure that we aren't already doing that to some small extent. We've already told people that if they are up-and-coming then they need to film any hard thing that they do or there will be pages and pages of accusations written online about the veracity of their claims. If Instagram is the way people host this media and everybody else is hashtag spunking everywhere then that's just the way it's done isn't it?

Maybe it is worse for those who are almost exclusively boulderers or sport climbers? Is it annoying that these strong kids are pissing your projects whilst hashtagging the soul out of your life's ambition?

I'd just say maybe you should look at yourselves deeper if this is the case.

Oh ffs, Duncan 
The trad climber who thinks that anyone who clips a bolt or carries a toothbrush is a self-obsessed, beanie-lover who can't handle anybody climbing harder than them is the oldest stereotype in the book. Don't sink to that level.

[GazM]

Its not entirely 'opt in' - to get rid of this stuff from my fb feed I'd have to defriend everyone who likes the stuff... That may be a good plan however!

You could delete your FB account though? I did that a month ago and life hasn't changed one bit.

[Duncan campbell]

I think you've missed the point.

If climbing for you starts when you step onto the rock and ends when you top out then maybe. For almost everybody I suspect this is not the case and they like to engage with the wider culture of climbing. People buy magazines, read biographies, listen to podcasts, post on social media, and sign up to internet message boards all to do with climbing. I don't know how you can do any of these things and claim to not care what goes on in the climbing scene.

I do take an interest but I just ignore those who I find annoying or those I don't think do it for the reasons I hold dear. Who am I to say how or why people should climb?

Plus (and thats a big PLUS) climbing is mainly about going and doing it, not talking about it or watching like for example football.

Another example; I hear loads of people berate those who use forums (fair enough) so do you all feel like you are negatively affecting the culture of climbing? Of course you don't! But are you willing to accept that you might be? i.e read the Brian Cropper obit. on UKC he wasn't into forums and people asking for beta "wheres the adventure in that?" he'd say.

This isn't really relevant to what we're discussing. Brian may have had a point ten years ago about people sharing beta on public forums, arguing that the adventure was being chipped out of climbing. I refuse to believe, however, that nobody every came into the YHA in Manchester and asked what size wire you needed for route X. The game has never changed in that respect, just the way in which people shared the information. What we're talking about here is a recent explosion of empty narcissism in climbing.

But surely us arguing that we are the 'true believers', the shining knights of climbing for the truest reasons and letting everyone know our viewpoints is narcissistic? humans are narcissists to some degree?

I'd agree there has been an EDIT: increase of empty narcissim. what i dont agree with is that its really that big of a problem. You've not been stopped from loving climbing for whatever reasons you do, so why does it matter that others love climbing for the hashtagging? (i bet they share some of our reasons for loving climbing)

Maybe it is worse for those who are almost exclusively boulderers or sport climbers? Is it annoying that these strong kids are pissing your projects whilst hashtagging the soul out of your life's ambition?

I'd just say maybe you should look at yourselves deeper if this is the case.

Oh ffs, Duncan 
The trad climber who thinks that anyone who clips a bolt or carries a toothbrush is a self-obsessed, beanie-lover who can't handle anybody climbing harder than them is the oldest stereotype in the book. Don't sink to that level.

Ok, ok that was a little naughty - I'm sorry. But what I was and still am wandering is exactly what is so terrible about all this? Yes its a little embarrassing and not what I see in climbing but I see enough people who don't do this (I reckon more dont than do) so it doesn't bother me. Plus I like to see people getting out and enjoying climbing.

*WIND-UP ALERT* Plus if you poncey, bolt-clipping, boulder hugging wimps stared death in the face like us heroic tradheads you'd see past all this rubbish. you'd have a higher understanding.      *WIND-UP ALERT OVER*

Anyway this is my actual last word on the matter. Id be keen to hear any response Will but I CBA with arguing about this non-problem further. Plus I really should do some work.

 

[Will Hunt]

I think you defeated s number of your own arguments in that post so I don't feel much need to reply 

Plus, anybody describing themselves as a "true believer" could well be a punter/knob 

[shark]

I have very little to add that hasn't already been said.

I would like to point out that, as a group, we seem fine with someone dedicating the most useful and productive hours/weeks/months/years of their life to sculpting their own body into a shape that allows them to pursue their own dreams by achieving a goal that, frankly, only they care about. 

Yet if they post a picture on instagram we call that narcissistic.

I'm calling bullshit. The shape isn't the end goal (it is a byproduct) and being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself. 

[Footwork]

I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... 

[Stu Littlefair]

...being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself.

If the challenge or goal has no benefit to anyone but yourself then yes, it is.

[Wood FT]

...being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself.

If the challenge or goal has no benefit to anyone but yourself then yes, it is.

If I do my target this year, i'll buy you a McDonner

[shark]

...being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself.

If the challenge or goal has no benefit to anyone but yourself then yes, it is.

Gandhi and similar excepted, generally people achieving great things do it for themselves whether it is Bill Gates or Mo Farah or Jonathon Livingstone Seagull. It is only others that decide whether what has been achieved has a benefit. Trying hard to reach a goal (whatever that goal might be) is the best form of human endeavour - it is not narcissistic

[Stu Littlefair]

Nicely handled Guy

I'm sure this has been said already but I'm not convinced yet that Social Media has increased narcissism, as opposed to increasing it's visibility. Anyway it strikes me that none of you are really bothered that these instagram posts and HALAM boasts are narcissistic. What bothers you is that they're DULL.

[36chambers]

...being inspired by challenges and goals is not narcissistic of itself.

If the challenge or goal has no benefit to anyone but yourself then yes, it is.

I just like burning people off.

[Coops_13]

I'm just waiting for Shauna to stop posting boring 'acro yoga' with Leah and dull board problems in slow motion and get on with the FFA of Voyager... 

now that would be something worth watching and hashtagging about

[Stu Littlefair]

Gandhi and similar excepted, generally people achieving great things do it for themselves whether it is Bill Gates or Mo Farah or Jonathon Livingstone Seagull. It is only others that decide whether what has been achieved has a benefit. Over-reaching is the best form of human endeavour - it is not narcissistic

You can quote Ghandi as much as you like. It doesn't change what you're doing this weekend.

Are you volunteering in a homeless shelter? Helping your kids with their homework? Doing the shopping for an elderly neighbour? Designing a clean energy source? Are you bollocks. You're going to forego some or all of these things and go climbing, an act which is neither use nor ornament to anyone.

Selfishness and narcissism are just words for different levels of self-centredness. Narcissism usually implies a higher degree of self-regard but it's all just a spectrum and if you think there's anything noble about your struggle to climb the oak you are <insert insult here>.

[lagerstarfish]

Its all life.

[shark]

Its all life.

Ooo.. cryptic. Where are you going with this? Narcissism and endeavour being two sides of the same coin / dependent on the observer?