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the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Fultonius on October 12, 2020, 03:14:41 pm

Title: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fultonius on October 12, 2020, 03:14:41 pm
The comments on that post are amazing. Someone with the handle

DourOldScotMSmithItsNotLikeitWasInMyDay has accused Buster of cheating because of the knee pad. Which does tie in well with the discussed Dave Graham opinion on tactics.

Because not eating for a year and dehydrating yourself for a week are legit but not knee pads. Which got me thinking: props to Matt Wright for what must be among the heaviest ascents of Hubble, if not even the first to break the ten stone barrier?

Oh the irony, considering Malc was one of the early adopters of custom knee pads and is a total knee bar wizard!! I'm sure I saw him down dumby with an old rock shoes sole attached to a pair of climbing jeans...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: cowboyhat on October 12, 2020, 03:24:14 pm
Dunning too (IIRC from a conversation with him, it sounded like he was very light at the time)..

Simpson  :worms:
Gaskins
:worms:

No can of worms required; whether they climbed Hubble or not, they're barely ten stone together.

In fact baring that in mind i'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fiend on October 12, 2020, 04:16:08 pm
The G must have done it because he was a skinny fucker. And bald.  :smartass:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: cheque on October 12, 2020, 04:36:24 pm
Spare a thought for those of us who weigh less than 10 stone, own a kneepad and still haven’t done Hubble.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: dunnyg on October 12, 2020, 05:51:39 pm
#onewadisoneprayer
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: andy popp on October 12, 2020, 06:34:25 pm
And bald.  :smartass:

I didn't realise baldness was a necessary qualification?

(https://scontent-cph2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/24173057_356545058141167_5495925994876813935_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=9267fe&_nc_ohc=ReO8dRFU2DsAX8f0uqY&_nc_ht=scontent-cph2-1.xx&oh=594e6a1b45a492803c5cc03e5e9dfce2&oe=5FAA5824)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 12, 2020, 07:29:25 pm
Lasers. Dreds. Power. That picture has the lot :)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 12, 2020, 07:52:44 pm
Funny old game. The worlds first 8c+ gets upgraded to 9a due to inflation 27 ish years later making it retrospectively the worlds first 9a. Now it’s been done with a kneepad (people don’t tend to do that unless it makes something easier) - if it ends up back as 8c+ was it still the worlds first 9a or is it the worlds first 8c+ again? Answers to Mr J Gaskins, Warton Cottage, South Lakes.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 12, 2020, 07:56:09 pm
Question is: What can you use to make it harder again. Must be some duff boots that were only available in the 90's???
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 12, 2020, 08:14:38 pm
Maybe when the kneescum is really polished in 20 years it’ll be the worlds first 9a again.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bradders on October 12, 2020, 08:22:12 pm
Funny old game. The worlds first 8c+ gets upgraded to 9a due to inflation 27 ish years later making it retrospectively the worlds first 9a. Now it’s been done with a kneepad (people don’t tend to do that unless it makes something easier) - if it ends up back as 8c+ was it still the worlds first 9a or is it the worlds first 8c+ again? Answers to Mr J Gaskins, Warton Cottage, South Lakes.

Well Matt Wright says it's still 9a with the kneebar, so does that mean it was actually 9a+ without?  :popcorn:








:tumble:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: 36chambers on October 12, 2020, 08:33:56 pm
Funny old game. The worlds first 8c+ gets upgraded to 9a due to inflation 27 ish years later making it retrospectively the worlds first 9a. Now it’s been done with a kneepad (people don’t tend to do that unless it makes something easier) - if it ends up back as 8c+ was it still the worlds first 9a or is it the worlds first 8c+ again? Answers to Mr J Gaskins, Warton Cottage, South Lakes.

Well Matt Wright says it's still 9a with the kneebar, so does that mean it was actually 9a+ without?  :popcorn:


Also didn't he say it's 9a with the knee bar if you use your right knee, however if you use your left knee it's actually only 8c+?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 12, 2020, 08:49:25 pm
Funny old game. The worlds first 8c+ gets upgraded to 9a due to inflation 27 ish years later making it retrospectively the worlds first 9a. Now it’s been done with a kneepad (people don’t tend to do that unless it makes something easier) - if it ends up back as 8c+ was it still the worlds first 9a or is it the worlds first 8c+ again? Answers to Mr J Gaskins, Warton Cottage, South Lakes.

Well Matt Wright says it's still 9a with the kneebar, so does that mean it was actually 9a+ without?  :popcorn:


Also didn't he say it's 9a with the knee bar if you use your right knee, however if you use your left knee it's actually only 8c+?


Could be 8c with both knees then. The worlds 4th 8c? Not got the same ring to it.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: jwi on October 12, 2020, 08:49:54 pm
sounds like a classic
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fiend on October 12, 2020, 09:01:22 pm
Can't Ned just highball it and then we can be done with it?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: remus on October 12, 2020, 09:27:12 pm
Funny old game. The worlds first 8c+ gets upgraded to 9a due to inflation 27 ish years later making it retrospectively the worlds first 9a. Now it’s been done with a kneepad (people don’t tend to do that unless it makes something easier) - if it ends up back as 8c+ was it still the worlds first 9a or is it the worlds first 8c+ again? Answers to Mr J Gaskins, Warton Cottage, South Lakes.

Well Matt Wright says it's still 9a with the kneebar, so does that mean it was actually 9a+ without?  :popcorn:


Also didn't he say it's 9a with the knee bar if you use your right knee, however if you use your left knee it's actually only 8c+?


Could be 8c with both knees then. The worlds 4th 8c? Not got the same ring to it.

Did Ben even use the toe hook that seems de-rigeur these days? Let's just say it how it is and put the grade down to 8b+.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: remus on October 12, 2020, 09:29:20 pm
Can't Ned just highball it and then we can be done with it?

He'd probably find a heel hook and downgrade it to 8A+.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bradders on October 12, 2020, 09:32:30 pm
Funny old game. The worlds first 8c+ gets upgraded to 9a due to inflation 27 ish years later making it retrospectively the worlds first 9a. Now it’s been done with a kneepad (people don’t tend to do that unless it makes something easier) - if it ends up back as 8c+ was it still the worlds first 9a or is it the worlds first 8c+ again? Answers to Mr J Gaskins, Warton Cottage, South Lakes.

Well Matt Wright says it's still 9a with the kneebar, so does that mean it was actually 9a+ without?  :popcorn:


Also didn't he say it's 9a with the knee bar if you use your right knee, however if you use your left knee it's actually only 8c+?


Could be 8c with both knees then. The worlds 4th 8c? Not got the same ring to it.

Why not, we don't want it to be an eliminate after all :lol:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: moose on October 12, 2020, 10:03:33 pm
Stardate 2030. A man-child snatches a window of good conditions between tropical storms and feral bands of cannibalistic Sheffielders. Glorying in the sub 35c temps and less than 120% humidity he pulls on to Hubble. He climbs to the belay making full use of his two left rubber knees, hooks for feet, Ape Index of +6", and 8 stone body mass. He promptly downgrades the route  to 8a+ (or font 7c above a pad stack). Jenns of 8a.nu trundles over, his disembodied head installed on an all-terrain Roomba, and hands over an enormous golden trophy inscribed "Most Humble Climber".
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: cheque on October 12, 2020, 10:43:25 pm
sounds like a classic

This would be a great burn if anyone considered Hubble a classic.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: 36chambers on October 12, 2020, 10:58:56 pm
So are we basically saying Hubble is the Keen Roof of 9a?

I predict another 5 ascents before the end of 2021 and by then it'll be a certified trade route :smart:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: dunnyg on October 12, 2020, 11:09:58 pm
Get spidermonkey on it, get it cusped.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on October 12, 2020, 11:22:38 pm
Looks like the most clad ascent too. Long sleeve top and knee pad. Most have only managed it shirtless or in a vest.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 15, 2020, 07:54:57 pm
The comments on that post are amazing. Someone with the handle

DourOldScotMSmithItsNotLikeitWasInMyDay has accused Buster of cheating because of the knee pad. Which does tie in well with the discussed Dave Graham opinion on tactics.

Because not eating for a year and dehydrating yourself for a week are legit but not knee pads. Which got me thinking: props to Matt Wright for what must be among the heaviest ascents of Hubble, if not even the first to break the ten stone barrier?

Just wanting to clarify, did Matt climb it with the pad? I hadn't assumed he did, but have heard otherwise.

Always good to know the quality of the gold you're trading  ;) - and I think the significance of any ascent works that way. I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: submaximal gains on October 15, 2020, 08:24:21 pm
A detailed video of Matt Wright describing his beta for Hubble is on his instagram here https://www.instagram.com/p/CGQJzFOjBBk/

He describes the knee bar/scum from 53s in, and the footage appears to show that he can only keep it in for the first part of the move before it comes out.

I will never climb Hubble so don't have to worry about whether I would use the knee bar or not.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 15, 2020, 09:00:00 pm

Always good to know the quality of the gold you're trading  ;) - and I think the significance of any ascent works that way. I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

 :lol: is that a joke?! You don't see anyone climbing in Spain now who isn't rubbered up like the gimp in Pulp Fiction.

I would be absolutely astonished if he hadn't done it with a pad, they are a standard bit of climbing equipment at the Tor I'd have thought.

Fair enough if you personally wouldn't claim it but you have to accept you're the soldier out of step on that one I think.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on October 15, 2020, 10:10:00 pm
Always good to know the quality of the gold you're trading  ;) - and I think the significance of any ascent works that way. I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

 :lol: is that a joke?! You don't see anyone climbing in Spain now who isn't rubbered up like the gimp in Pulp Fiction.

I would be absolutely astonished if he hadn't done it with a pad, they are a standard bit of climbing equipment at the Tor I'd have thought.

Fair enough if you personally wouldn't claim it but you have to accept you're the soldier out of step on that one I think.

Of course it’s not a joke. Fuck Spain and their identikit routes. Mat asked me about what I thought about using a kneepad on Hubble? Haha. I said it would be a shame. I told him I thought Sean McColl was a dick on the Mammut repeating the classics whining afterwards that he didn’t have the right type of kneepad. I don’t know why he bothered asking as he went and strapped his pad on anyway. So much for respecting the history of the route. Anyway the next generation of influencers have decided so it’s hunky dory now. Like using a kneepad on Mecca is acceptable now or Bens Roof for that matter before someone jumps down my gullet or the happy people claiming the Green Traverse without dropping down to the crimps. Like I said it’s a shame but now it’s the way to do it.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Ged on October 15, 2020, 10:16:48 pm
Always good to know the quality of the gold you're trading  ;) - and I think the significance of any ascent works that way. I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

 :lol: is that a joke?! You don't see anyone climbing in Spain now who isn't rubbered up like the gimp in Pulp Fiction.

I would be absolutely astonished if he hadn't done it with a pad, they are a standard bit of climbing equipment at the Tor I'd have thought.

Fair enough if you personally wouldn't claim it but you have to accept you're the soldier out of step on that one I think.

Of course it’s not a joke. Fuck Spain and their identikit routes. Mat asked me about what I thought about using a kneepad on Hubble? Haha. I said it would be a shame. I told him I thought Sean McColl was a dick on the Mammut repeating the classics whining afterwards that he didn’t have the right type of kneepad. I don’t know why he bothered asking as he went and strapped his pad on anyway. So much for respecting the history of the route. Anyway the next generation of influencers have decided so it’s hunky dory now. Like using a kneepad on Mecca is acceptable now or Bens Roof for that matter before someone jumps down my gullet or the happy people claiming the Green Traverse without dropping down to the crimps. Like I said it’s a shame but now it’s the way to do it.

I really don't understand this argument. How is it not respecting the history of the route? And does that even acyially matter? Its just rock climbing! Phoenix in yosemite first done pre cams. Does that mean every ascent with cams gets flamed? Presumably you're climbing every route that was bolted in the 80s wearing shit floppy shoes?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on October 15, 2020, 10:20:43 pm
It’s not an argument it’s a fait accompli
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Andy F on October 15, 2020, 11:00:59 pm
This may not be fashionable, but the way Matt has been open and honest about his using the pad and the slight advantage it may have given him, is refreshing.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 15, 2020, 11:04:32 pm
Seems a bizarre point of view to take to me, but fair enough if you hold it. Although I also thought Sean McColl was a dick on that video, not because of the kneepad, just in general. 

I think it's possible to think its a shame without thinking it disrespects the routes history though. Like Ged I don't really understand that.

Off topic, but Spanish/european routes have loads of history, it's just different to ours (and in Spanish so we don't know about it.) talking to locals about the development of rodellar or oliana was fascinating. We don't have a monopoly on climbing history in the UK. British climbing exceptionalism perhaps?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: 36chambers on October 15, 2020, 11:04:44 pm
Of course it’s not a joke. Fuck Spain and their identikit routes. Mat asked me about what I thought about using a kneepad on Hubble? Haha. I said it would be a shame. I told him I thought Sean McColl was a dick on the Mammut repeating the classics whining afterwards that he didn’t have the right type of kneepad. I don’t know why he bothered asking as he went and strapped his pad on anyway. So much for respecting the history of the route. Anyway the next generation of influencers have decided so it’s hunky dory now. Like using a kneepad on Mecca is acceptable now or Bens Roof for that matter before someone jumps down my gullet or the happy people claiming the Green Traverse without dropping down to the crimps. Like I said it’s a shame but now it’s the way to do it.

Kudos to Mat for sticking it to the man.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Sasquatch on October 16, 2020, 06:49:27 am
Of course it’s not a joke. Fuck Spain and their identikit routes. Mat asked me about what I thought about using a kneepad on Hubble? Haha. I said it would be a shame. I told him I thought Sean McColl was a dick on the Mammut repeating the classics whining afterwards that he didn’t have the right type of kneepad. I don’t know why he bothered asking as he went and strapped his pad on anyway. So much for respecting the history of the route. Anyway the next generation of influencers have decided so it’s hunky dory now. Like using a kneepad on Mecca is acceptable now or Bens Roof for that matter before someone jumps down my gullet or the happy people claiming the Green Traverse without dropping down to the crimps. Like I said it’s a shame but now it’s the way to do it.

It’s not an argument it’s a fait accompli
With a side of judgement and you're trying to argue Dave's point that he shouldn't take the route. 

That's like the old tradsters bi^&*ing about the youngsters.  Except you're the old sportster bi^&*ing. 

We deal with the technology and circumstance that we have, and if we are being forthright then we disclose everything and go with it.  He's not hiding anything.  He's being honest and that's good enough for me. 
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on October 16, 2020, 08:28:04 am
With a side of judgement and you're trying to argue Dave's point that he shouldn't take the route.

Dave didn’t say that. What he said was:

Quote
I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

That’s not the same as saying the ascent is not legitimate and to be clear I’m not say it wasn’t legitimate. Peoples personal ethics vary. The community is ok with it too.

Quote
We deal with the technology and circumstance that we have, and if we are being forthright then we disclose everything and go with it.  He's not hiding anything.  He's being honest and that's good enough for me. 

I get all that. It’s a shame a knee bar was discovered. People saying it’s marginal is neither here nor there as marginal assistance makes a difference. It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it. The temptation was too great. I get that too. They made their choices. The precedent has now been set. Another chapter in the route’s history.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: teestub on October 16, 2020, 08:51:11 am
This could only be better if it was Barrows arguing against the use of a knee bar 😂
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 16, 2020, 08:51:26 am
#biggradesforbadbeta
I honestly don't know how anybody can maintain that logic and not say the same thing about anybody climbing a Puttrell route in rock shoes. Or somebody climbing one of the old ice routes on the Ben without cutting steps. Or doing classic VSs at Stanage with cams. Or even using a fingerboard to train for climbing.

Whenever somebody makes a technological leap forward in climbing there are inevitably those who try and order back the tide. We've had exactly the same arguments about cams, chalk, training, turning old short solos into highballs etc etc. It's pointless. The technology always wins and in 10 years people will be amazed that anybody even questioned it. The people who reap the biggest rewards are the early adopters.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 16, 2020, 08:51:45 am
I’d just like to fact-check(tm) you Shark.

Green Traverse without dropping to the crimps is Rons Reach non?

:p
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 16, 2020, 08:52:26 am
The only saving grace is that Barrow’s 6 metre limb won’t fit under there.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Nibile on October 16, 2020, 09:01:14 am
The first gaston is horrible!!! I've always thought it was a good flake!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 16, 2020, 09:13:23 am
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it.
As a counterpoint, I think it would have been moronic, highly unimpressive, regressive, and involved them climbing a no star eliminate piece of shit (instead of a 1 star non-eliminate ;) ).

Fuck Spain and their identikit routes.
Says the man who likes to climb at Malham, home of the "I can't even work out where the route starts 'cos they all look the same"  :lol:

I think it's possible to think its a shame without thinking it disrespects the routes history though.
+1. As a man who's found a lot of knees on things in the UK, some of them are great - they make the route/problem better. Some are "who cares". Some are a shame - they make the route/problem worse, or even essentially defunct. Generally the ones that I think are a shame are the very morpho ones, (where it makes it much easier but only if you have a long/short-enough shin) or the ones that make a problem defunct (e.g. Sparks at Pantymwyn bascially doesn't exist as a problem if you use your brain and your knee in conjunction). As a man whose ascent of Director's Cut was apparently "an insult to Jamie Cassidy" I say fuck climbing eliminates, I didn't get into rock climbing to climb eliminates. Especially not technique eliminates. That's the lowest of the low. And if that means big changes then suck it up. Or should we ban anasazi heels from all problems climbed without them on the FA? Or, as Ged said, no cams on things originally done pre-cams? What about routes climbed after rubber pads were being used elsewhere but less popular in the UK? Or ones climbed after pads got popular but where the FA missed a knee? What about when neoprene was used but rubber not so much? Should I bust out my old knee support and find an old pair of shoes for those ones? I guess if someone is into climbing eliminates then smash on, but it holds zero inspiration to me. Want an unchanging benchmark of power? Go campusing.

Off topic, but Spanish/european routes have loads of history, it's just different to ours [...] We don't have a monopoly on climbing history in the UK. British climbing exceptionalism perhaps?
Quite.

The only saving grace is that Barrow’s 6 metre limb won’t fit under there.
And my fingers are always too broken to pull on
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: remus on October 16, 2020, 09:38:31 am
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it. The temptation was too great. I get that too. They made their choices. The precedent has now been set. Another chapter in the route’s history.

Personally I find this reasoning hard to empathise with. What I enjoy in climbing is climbing hard (for me) things well (i.e. using the best sequence possible). While I can certainly marvel at the difficulty of some desperate sequence used by the FA while I float past it on knee bars, I have very little interest in trying to climb an eliminate.

Going back to the green traverse example, I guess it has something to do with whether 'green traverse' refers to a line or a specific set of moves. While I acknowledge there's the need for some rules every now and then (e.g. footblock is out) a version of climbing where hubble is defined as precisely the same set as moves as Ben did, with precisely the same kit, is uninteresting to me. I want to climb lines, not moves.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Stabbsy on October 16, 2020, 09:41:13 am
#biggradesforbadbeta
I honestly don't know how anybody can maintain that logic and not say the same thing about anybody climbing a Puttrell route in rock shoes. Or somebody climbing one of the old ice routes on the Ben without cutting steps. Or doing classic VSs at Stanage with cams. Or even using a fingerboard to train for climbing.
Something to do with the climbing statute of limitations? Puttrell routes are 100+ years old, so anything is fair game. I understand the limit for the Peak has been set at 32 years, Hubble is only 30 years young so you can't use knee pads until 2022 - back around, etc.. West Side Story is 35 years old - that's why there was a flood of ascents with pads, step ladders, etc. a few years back. All such ascents prior to 2017 were null and void.

Maybe the BMC need to pull together the BMC RED (Regional Ethics Database) so that you can put in a crag/route and check what's "in" - how many pads, acceptable shoe models, are heels/knees allowed, alternate sequences that have been approved by the crag guardians, etc.. Woe betide anyone who posts on Instagram without checking the approvals list to ensure their ascent is valid.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: 36chambers on October 16, 2020, 09:53:09 am
As an Almscliff devotee I'd just like to say God bless eliminates.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: kac on October 16, 2020, 09:55:14 am
To be fair to dave if he could find some lasers in a skip i'm pretty sure he would wear them. He also avoids the good foot holds in the middle of powerband because they didn't use ot be there.  obviously hes not got a bouldering mat and hes even riding a moterbike to the crag now. We should all be thankful someone is keeping the golden age alive :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 16, 2020, 10:12:57 am
Maybe the BMC need to pull together the BMC RED (Regional Ethics Database) so that you can put in a crag/route and check what's "in" - how many pads, acceptable shoe models, are heels/knees allowed, alternate sequences that have been approved by the crag guardians, etc.. Woe betide anyone who posts on Instagram without checking the approvals list to ensure their ascent is valid.

Great idea. And rather than having an equitable bottom up approach - whereby the 'rules' for a problem are determined by online discussion and voting, we should have them decreed by a small cabal of aging, melancholic yet bitter (mostly former) climbers. Perfect for the BMC :D
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: JohnM on October 16, 2020, 10:24:58 am
Using a pad is fine as long as you don't try and pretend it is somehow the same grade (yes it can stay the same grade e.g. move from hard or top-end 9a to soft or low-end 9a). Although at much lower grade levels, I remember people in the cave still trying to claim anywhere between 7C+ and 8A+ for Trigger Cut when they had their knee in for every move apart from the last one! Obviously nobody really cares at the lower grades way below the cutting edge but you are just lying to yourself!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: jwi on October 16, 2020, 10:46:40 am
It is very hard to imagine how someone climbing onsight will know on which routes knee pads are allowed... I vote for a blanket downgrade on every route where kneepads help.

I overheard a chat between one of the BTR guys and a younger climber at the new sector in Bielsa. The younger climber said that she had done one of his old routes, but wasn't sure if she could take 7c+ for it as she had a kneepad, to which the BTR guy replied: "I used a home-made kneepad at the time, not everyone was a moron in the 90s, you know".
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 16, 2020, 10:54:42 am
"I used a home-made kneepad at the time, not everyone was a moron in the 90s, you know".

 :lol: This quote is awesome
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Orrincoley on October 16, 2020, 10:56:45 am
Obviously nobody really cares at the lower grades way below the cutting edge

8c+ or 9a isn't cutting edge now though, so why has it become a big deal that there's new beta in the form of a knee bar?

Times changes, new kit is invented, people find new beta. As such the grade and the climb itself changes. For historical value a climb could be repeated in the original fashion, but its an eliminate at this point and all your doing is handicapping yourself for either the sake of ego or for a personal challenge (which is okay)

New beta is like getting ageing, it'll happen and no one can stop it.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: jwi on October 16, 2020, 10:59:16 am
Obviously nobody really cares at the lower grades way below the cutting edge

8c+ or 9a isn't cutting edge now though

9a+ is not cutting edge anymore either, doing a 9a+ will not get you into the news section of Grimper unless you are a woman, a child, or a Frenchman.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Nibile on October 16, 2020, 11:19:30 am
And my fingers are always too broken to pull on
Probably from the strain of pulling those kneepad straps too tight, I imagine.
(Sorry could not resist.)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: cheque on October 16, 2020, 11:44:04 am
I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad

The pre-emptive humblebrag. I love it.  :lol:

8c+ or 9a isn't cutting edge now though, so why has it become a big deal that there's new beta in the form of a knee bar?

Because British climbers of a certain age fetishise Hubble as both the ultimate route from their formative years and a distillation of the basic-pulling-on-minging-crimps ethos of that era?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Yossarian on October 16, 2020, 12:13:26 pm
If anyone fancies chipping in, I would quite like to buy and convert a Bedford Rascal, signpaint it with “BACK TO THE OLD SCHOOL” in Ninja green, from which Dave can serve steamed broccoli and rent out Lasers, Vectors, those Stone Monkey striped turtlenecks, Think Pink vests and Japanese writing tights.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: remus on October 16, 2020, 12:22:04 pm
If anyone fancies chipping in, I would quite like to buy and convert a Bedford Rascal, signpaint it with “BACK TO THE OLD SCHOOL” in Ninja green, from which Dave can serve steamed broccoli and rent out Lasers, Vectors, those Stone Monkey striped turtlenecks, Think Pink vests and Japanese writing tights.

Sign me up.

Perhaps he could also include a lockbox service, where you can store all that food you actually want to eat instead of the broccoli.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fiend on October 16, 2020, 12:31:52 pm
For the love of god someone find a subtle but crucial knee-scum on the Oak that drops the grade but that Shark's flippers just don't fit in....
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 16, 2020, 12:39:52 pm
For the love of god someone find a subtle but crucial knee-scum on the Oak that drops the grade but that Shark's flippers just don't fit in....

No. I want it to be a huge jug rest. And I want there to be multiple. I want it to be so that all the hardest hand movements are done off bomber knees. I want it to render the route a 6c that becomes the most popular warm up.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on October 16, 2020, 12:42:40 pm
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it.
As a counterpoint, I think it would have been moronic, highly unimpressive, regressive, and involved them climbing a no star eliminate piece of shit (instead of a 1 star non-eliminate ;) ).

So by the same token Jack Pal and others climbing Pilgrimage without kneebars makes them morons?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: rjtrials on October 16, 2020, 12:59:22 pm
Yes.

There are an infinite amount of things to climb and a finite amount of time and energy.

Any conscious effort to ignore a technique or beta (handjams/finger locks / heels /knees) on something that is hard for you is daft. Every go or session added is stolen from something else you could be climbing.

The grades don't matter, the lines matter. Do the lines as fast and with all the tricks possible and be honest about how it affects "consensus" grades.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 16, 2020, 12:59:56 pm
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it.
As a counterpoint, I think it would have been moronic, highly unimpressive, regressive, and involved them climbing a no star eliminate piece of shit (instead of a 1 star non-eliminate ;) ).

So by the same token Jack Pal and others climbing Pilgrimage without kneebars makes them morons?

Even worse . They climb it the nails way but only get 8b
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on October 16, 2020, 01:09:30 pm
Even worse . They climb it the nails way but only get 8b

Cretins!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 16, 2020, 01:14:23 pm
Shark, I feel I need to highlight the irony and double-standards of you bitching about a kneepad diminishing the challenge of climbing Hubble - when you've been trying The Oak for ever with the third bolt pre-clipped. That certainly isn't legit for the grade and most people don't do it that way, because they know it isn't necessary (i.e. for 'safety') and it certainly reduces the challenge of the route. Should anyone care except you - no!

On the other hand, the logic behind the line of argument about kneepads being legit equipment advances (while I agree in the case of kneepads) isn't very solid. What are acceptable equipment advances, and what are cheats? It's open to debate.
I pointed this out to Barrows (and his attack poodle) when he did Pilgrimage, that the mixed-climbing game have already been through this same debate with heel spurs on comp boots. It's almost exactly the same line of argument - an equipment advance that makes climbing mixed routes easier. Mixed climbers moved away from wearing heel spurs on comp boots because they turned amazing sought-after previously-hard challenges into a drawn-out series of shake-outs. Climbers can still opt to climb any hard route with heel spurs if they want. By choosing not to they're in effect 'climbing a technique eliminate' as someone put it.

Personally think kneepads make sense now,  perhaps because only some routes accept them. It just means some historic routes will become easier but routes/problems done since the paradigm shift will account for kneepads provided the FA wasn't a luddite.

But the 'legit equipment advance'  logic isn't fine on its own, there's something else in there more nebulous and less logical. Or else, what about little hooks on the kneepads or heels?

Just my 2p.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 16, 2020, 01:27:37 pm
Boreals with little hooks on the heels already exist.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: JJP on October 16, 2020, 01:33:18 pm
Having never used a pad before how much difference does it make compared to a knee bar without the pad?  Presumably allows you to take more weight?  Does it get in the way for other moves?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 16, 2020, 01:42:13 pm
So by the same token Jack Pal and others climbing Pilgrimage without kneebars makes them morons?

It doesn't make them morons... But it does make me think of them as morons. Or as people who like eliminates (aka morons). Or as people who didn't put enough time into finding knees (morons) or short people with short shins (fuckin' midgets, way worse than morons). I give kudos/think they're morons the same as anyone doing any other 8B with an 8B+ sequence (or being forced to by being too small for the easiest beta).

Climbing it without knees because they don't fit is impressive, climbing it without knees if they do is dumb (to me). Like I said, it's a pity if a knee is morpho and makes a big difference, same as it's a pity when anything is morpho in any other really marked way. Some of the Pilgrimage knees may be morpho (the end of RA and the sequence moving right and skipping the undercut match), in which case it's a shame. Though I'd be interested to know if anyone short and into knees has put much time into finding alternatives?

P.S. love you really Jack  :kiss2:


  Or else, what about little hooks on ... heels?
That's basically the anasazi if you buy the right pair. Fat Lip is at least 1 grade easier with a shoe with that kind of hook. But you're definitely right about the broad point - a magic pair of gecko gloves would clearly not be "legit", so there are lines somewhere. Putting rubber on bits of your body as well as shoes - whether via kneepads or crack gloves - seems broadly ok to me.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 16, 2020, 01:44:14 pm
Having never used a pad before how much difference does it make compared to a knee bar without the pad?  Presumably allows you to take more weight?  Does it get in the way for other moves?

Totally dependent on the nature of the knee bar but they never make them worse in my experience (limited compared to others). On some kneebars with a large surface area of smooth rock the difference is minimal. On most others (marginal ones or incredibly spiky tufas that would destroy your legs otherwise) it makes a massive difference.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on October 16, 2020, 01:45:32 pm
Shark, I feel I need to highlight the irony and double-standards of you bitching about a kneepad diminishing the challenge of climbing Hubble - when you've been trying The Oak for ever with the third bolt pre-clipped. That certainly isn't legit for the grade and most people don't do it that way, because they know it isn't necessary (i.e. for 'safety') and it certainly reduces the challenge of the route. Should anyone care except you - no!

Plenty have climbed the Oak for a long time before I even first tried it and subsequently with the 3rd pre-clipped so it’s established as a legit way to climb the route. I’ll take your word that it’s not legit at the grade. I know and have acknowledged it’s  flawed. Crucially I’m not the first to try it that way.

It’s when something first gets done a new way that it can be in limbo. Buster certainly had qualms. Mat wouldn’t have raised as a topic of conversation if he was 100%. Obviously they are going to justify it now. If Buster had done it without the legitimacy of Mats ascent might have been knocked and subsequent y it might have been recognised that Hubble wasn’t a route you did with kneepads.

It looks like it hasn’t gone that way though who knows what views others trying it will do. I’d love Shauna to do it per se (I gather she got close) but without pads would be even better. 
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 16, 2020, 01:54:19 pm
It’s when something first gets done a new way that it can be in limbo.... it might have been recognised that Hubble wasn’t a route you did with kneepads.

I don't buy this at all, you're in a Brexit-esque "in my day" fantasy land. Can you name any other route/problem anywhere in the world where this has happened? Or the equivalent with people routinely avoiding cams, chalk, modern shoes etc? (Clearly some entire regions have certain ethics, e.g. knot protection or no chalk or no rap-bolting, but we're talking about a crag where everyone is climbing other routes and problems with knees)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: User deactivated on October 16, 2020, 01:58:45 pm
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it.
As a counterpoint, I think it would have been moronic, highly unimpressive, regressive, and involved them climbing a no star eliminate piece of shit (instead of a 1 star non-eliminate ;) ).

So by the same token Jack Pal and others climbing Pilgrimage without kneebars makes them morons?

In hindsight I’d have to say yes it does. I never even found out which of the ones i’d fit into on pilgrimage, pretty naive. I do at least know I can’t fit the Trigger cut ones but I only bothered to find out after doing directors etc. Alex did warn me!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Stu Littlefair on October 16, 2020, 02:03:09 pm
If you think Buster and Matt's ascents are dodgy, you should see how much difference the left kneebar makes for shorties!

So here's what's interesting. We can all agree that Shark is both hypocritical and moronic. Clearly, I'd never even think about not using that kneebar. But I did feel a little bit sad/dirty when I realised how well the knee works. There's some bit of "the-Hubble-that-lives-in-my-head" that was the undercut match, and that bit of Hubble died.

So it is sort of a shame when it happens, but you'd be an idiot not to use it.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: 36chambers on October 16, 2020, 02:05:48 pm
Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?

Seems like a similar case to Peewee and his two 8Bs in that other thread.

(Not trying to have a dig at you Jack btw :))
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 16, 2020, 02:08:24 pm
So is this realistically the end of the claim for Hubble as the first 9a I wonder? Or is it technically the first 9a because the sequence Moon used was harder than the current one?  :blink: :blink: :blink:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 16, 2020, 02:10:02 pm
Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?

Seems like a similar case to Peewee and his two 8Bs in that other thread.

(Not trying to have a dig at you Jack btw :))

If an easier sequence already exists but you choose to use a harder one I don't think you get to take a higher grade do you? If you do it the hard way before a hold breaks/someone works something out its probably different. Interesting question though
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: reeve on October 16, 2020, 02:15:18 pm
<shark on the Oak quip>
Simon, is your main motivation for being on this no-knee-pad-on-Hubble ethical high horse that it makes it easier to preclip the third bolt from up there?
<End quip>

Clearly, I'd never even think about not using that kneebar. But I did feel a little bit sad/dirty when I realised how well the knee works. There's some bit of "the-Hubble-that-lives-in-my-head" that was the undercut match, and that bit of Hubble died.

So it is sort of a shame when it happens, but you'd be an idiot not to use it.

I can totally get that, and to be fair I imagine that is what Simon feels has been lost. I remember trying a problem on the cromlech boulders twenty years ago, getting really close after half an hour, then realising there was a jug in the middle of the crux which I had totally missed. Using the jug felt like a hollow victory, but hey ho. The Hubble of twenty years ago isn't the same as it is now, but knee pads are only one reason for that amongst better training, better shoes, lighter ropes, more people climbing, chalk with drying agents, harnesses you don't have to double back...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 16, 2020, 02:19:44 pm
So it is sort of a shame when it happens, but you'd be an idiot not to use it.
Sums it up well.

Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?
That depends on many things.. mostly, what does a grading scale mean to you? If it's about demonstrating the difficulty you're able to climb then maybe yes, but this leads down a dumb avenue because then people can also "take" grades on the School Board, the Moon board, or a regulation campus board. If it's about describing the difficulty of climbing a certain bit of rock (which IMO is what it should be) then we move onto the next set of Qs..

How morpho are the knees?
In a world/on a problem where the knees are not morpho, then the answer is no. #biggradesforbadbeta I can't climb something that everyone thinks is 7C with shit beta and say it's 8A, because it's demonstrably not (in the sense that there's a broad consensus that it's 7C).
If it's morpho (probably is on Pilgrimage) then we're back to the eternal question - if you have a morpho problem that's 8B for tall people and 8B+ for short people then what grade should you give it and what can people "take".. and how do you create morphologically-invariant problems to act as a benchmark.. and reminds us that grades don't really make that much sense.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 16, 2020, 02:44:07 pm
Quote from: some young gun in 10 year's time
Plenty have climbed Hubble for a long time before I even first tried it and subsequently with the kneebar so it’s established as a legit way to climb the route. I’ll take your word that it’s not legit at the grade. I know and have acknowledged it’s  flawed. Crucially I’m not the first to try it that way.

I wonder who that pioneer was who first did the Oak with the 3rd bolt pre-clipped and thus opened the door for Shark to (not) get up it.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: User deactivated on October 16, 2020, 02:46:46 pm
Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?

Seems like a similar case to Peewee and his two 8Bs in that other thread.

(Not trying to have a dig at you Jack btw :))

Nah fair enough. And yeah downgrade by all means. I was fresh ish to the climbing game and very inexperienced when I did those things. The cave was basically the first place I went when I started climbing outside and I didn’t really put much thought in to how I operated. Nowadays having had my eyes opened by much better climbers than me, I’m often on the look out for alternate beta from minute one.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Zods Beard on October 16, 2020, 02:53:52 pm
<shark on the Oak quip>
Simon, is your main motivation for being on this no-knee-pad-on-Hubble ethical high horse that it makes it easier to preclip the third bolt from up there?
<End quip>

The shocking truth behind this quip is a ladder was used to get on said high horse.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: teestub on October 16, 2020, 02:58:49 pm
Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?

Seems like a similar case to Peewee and his two 8Bs in that other thread.

(Not trying to have a dig at you Jack btw :))

Nah fair enough. And yeah downgrade by all means.

I think as Barrows alluded to this depends on how morpho the knees on Pilgrimage are. If those knees are only available to those with the dimensions of a baby giraffe, then it seems like a bit of a harsh deal that the grade would be affected by one ascent. I think there’s room for commentary on such situations.  This seems entirely different to pretending a knee bar opportunity doesn’t exist because you want to pretend it’s still the ‘90’s for some reason.

On Hubble it seems a lot more clear cut, there’s only one place to get a knee in and there would appear to be options for a variety of sizes.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 16, 2020, 03:02:18 pm
So it is sort of a shame when it happens, but you'd be an idiot not to use it.
Sums it up well.

Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?
That depends on many things.. mostly, what does a grading scale mean to you? If it's about demonstrating the difficulty you're able to climb then maybe yes, but this leads down a dumb avenue because then people can also "take" grades on the School Board, the Moon board, or a regulation campus board. If it's about describing the difficulty of climbing a certain bit of rock (which IMO is what it should be) then we move onto the next set of Qs..

How morpho are the knees?
In a world/on a problem where the knees are not morpho, then the answer is no. #biggradesforbadbeta I can't climb something that everyone thinks is 7C with shit beta and say it's 8A, because it's demonstrably not (in the sense that there's a broad consensus that it's 7C).
If it's morpho (probably is on Pilgrimage) then we're back to the eternal question - if you have a morpho problem that's 8B for tall people and 8B+ for short people then what grade should you give it and what can people "take".. and how do you create morphologically-invariant problems to act as a benchmark.. and reminds us that grades don't really make that much sense.
Quite.
I came to the conclusion a while ago that the only accurate form of grading would be an n-dimensional graph, with grade on one axis and all confounding variable on the other axes.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 16, 2020, 03:05:12 pm
There's some nuance in kneebars that I don't think comes across in the thread. People talk about them like the addition of any kneebar or scum is tantamount to the addition of a jug mid-route. It's not as simple as that.
Some shit knees would require massive amounts of core and leg strength to work. They might be difficult to get into or out of. I can imagine certain limited circumstances where a route could be climbed by two sequences - one "standard" sequence that might get 8c and another "kneebar" sequence which makes the hand movements slightly easier but involves "8c level kneebarring". A normal climber might favour the standard sequence and not be able to do the knee thing; a kneebar specialist with weaker fingers might favour the knee method. Kind of like Pete Whittaker managing the crux of Silence with really technical jamming and Ondra acknowledging that but pointing out that getting into and out of that sequence would be harder - but you do turn the crux of Silence into something that Whittaker could work out in a single dogging session...  :worms:

Basically, just because there's some knee scumming going on it doesn't necessarily mean that Hubble is now piss or even an easier grade.

I like this illustration of just how hard knee-barring can be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEqUiPhyxFM



Please keep making jokes. This thread is gold.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 16, 2020, 03:10:14 pm
I reminded of an anecdote from, I think, The Hard Years where Brown and Whillans knocked literally days off the previous fastest time for a route in Chamonix because they'd jammed the cracks instead of laybacking them.
I'd like to think that they walked into the cafe in the evening after setting off that morning and nobody believed that they'd done the route. I bet the French were disgusted that their hardest route had been ruined by people with poor ethical leadership.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 16, 2020, 03:17:08 pm
I thought we'd bottomed this one out in 2014 after McColl's ascent.

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24273.msg448676.html#msg448676
To quote myself:

Quote
Is it a damn shame if Hubble can be made easier using a kneebar? Yes.
Would such a state of affairs diminish the route somewhat? I guess so.
Would it be kind of nice if everyone who went on Hubble never thought to try using a kneepad? Maybe.
Would this piss me off it I was Ben Moon? Yes. I'm always a bit annoyed when people find easier ways to climb things I've put up.
Is there anything you can sensibly do about it? No.
Should arbitrary rules be invented and observed on a route by route basis to avoid such disappointments? No.
Does it invalidate an ascent? No.
Is Dense's claim that kneepads shouldn't be used on older routes make sense because people didn't have kneepads back then? No. In part because it's too arbitrary and complex to make any sense or police in the long run, but mostly because climbers DID make and use kneepads well before commercial products existed.

You can't just make up crazy rules to preserve the simplicity of the historical record or the importance of past achievements. By all means use split grades for with without, but don't presume to tell people not to use bits of their body on climbs.
The arguments in play here are pretty much the same arguments that are used to attack people who use bouldering mats to highball climbs which once had big e numbers. It a classic tail wagging the dog scenario.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 16, 2020, 03:25:05 pm
I thought we'd bottomed this one out in 2014 after McColl's ascent.

Yeah, I think everyone other than Simon and DT are on the same page on this thread
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: andy popp on October 16, 2020, 03:27:06 pm
I'm so old that I actually saw someone using a hemp rope not long after I started climbing. I'm depressed by how good everyone now is at using their heels (and the shoes they do it in). And I still think Dave and Shark's stance on this is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: remus on October 16, 2020, 03:29:09 pm
There's some nuance in kneebars that I don't think comes across in the thread. People talk about them like the addition of any kneebar or scum is tantamount to the addition of a jug mid-route. It's not as simple as that.

I think this is a key difference between knee bars and heel spurs in dry tooling. Knee bars dont automatically make everything easier, and to get the most out of knee bars requires a lot of skill (same as good toe hooking technique for example.) The impression I get is that heel spurs are relatively straightforward to use and almost always make a big difference to the difficulty, like adding a juggy hands off knee bar in the middle of loads of routes where it didnt previously exist. All a matter of degrees I guess.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: danm on October 16, 2020, 04:20:18 pm
Shark, how did you get up onto that high horse, ground up or using a ladder?  :tease:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 16, 2020, 05:26:47 pm

 Knee bars dont automatically make everything easier, and to get the most out of knee bars requires a lot of skill (same as good toe hooking technique for example.)

Climbing difficult things requires skill?  :-\
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 16, 2020, 05:31:05 pm
I'm so old that I actually saw someone using a hemp rope not long after I started climbing. I'm depressed by how good everyone now is at using their heels (and the shoes they do it in). And I still think Dave and Shark's stance on this is ridiculous.

First ropes I used were hemp ropes  :yes:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 17, 2020, 12:49:42 am
Sorry, trying my own cut/paste from Sig Repeats.

With a side of judgement and you're trying to argue Dave's point that he shouldn't take the route. 

That's like the old tradsters bi^&*ing about the youngsters.  Except you're the old sportster bi^&*ing. 

We deal with the technology and circumstance that we have, and if we are being forthright then we disclose everything and go with it.  He's not hiding anything.  He's being honest and that's good enough for me.

Sorry for the late post.

Hi Mr Squatch  ;D

I'm not saying "he shouldn't take the route". I'm not applying black/white thinking, just trying to establish the facts, while also trying to make sure we're not comparing apples (cheaper) with oranges (more expensive .. maybe  ;D ).

I think it's a good thing to try to develop.

I'm a big fan of Matt, and find what he's been doing really refreshing. Andy F, I'm referencing your post from earlier, but being really lazy. Sorry. I'll try to post up a reply properly.

What's more important, is that people don't start claiming Woodology at the school, with "any feet", then the bottom really would drop out of the market.
:P
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 17, 2020, 12:51:30 am
And..

Further more, and to hopefully keep on topic with Significant Repeats, ascents of routes like Hubble with the pad, ARE significant, because that's what's being traded currently.

I don't think Significant Repeats should be just about usurping the old, with something harder (or, er .. easier  ;D ), but about being more conscious of what's going down out there; it should be less of a competition about what's significant/insignificant.

Hope that's OK.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Sasquatch on October 17, 2020, 01:17:26 am
Sorry for the late post.

Hi Mr Squatch  ;D

I'm not saying "he shouldn't take the route". I'm not applying black/white thinking, just trying to establish the facts, while also trying to make sure we're not comparing apples (cheaper) with oranges (more expensive .. maybe  ;D ).

I think it's a good thing to try to develop.

I'm a big fan of Matt, and find what he's been doing really refreshing. Andy F, I'm referencing your post from earlier, but being really lazy. Sorry. I'll try to post up a reply properly.

What's more important, is that people don't start claiming Woodology at the school, with "any feet", then the bottom really would drop out of the market.
:P
...
Always good to know the quality of the gold you're trading  ;) - and I think the significance of any ascent works that way. I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

I get that you're saying you wouldn't and that is technically different than saying he shouldn't. But it certainly implies a judgement of it.

I'm glad you've clarified it...  The first post seemed pretty judgemental, while the second seems less so to me.  :)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 17, 2020, 02:16:01 am
Ha ha! I was going to post "is no one else reading this at 2.13a.m. - although it isn't for you.

My post could be considered "judgemental" in that it comes across as me saying "it's not the real deal" (could even be considered a fallacy. I think it's known as "The No True Hubble Fallacy"  ;) ). But that isn't my point, and I don't think it's Simon's either.

I am excited to hear about a new repeat of Hubble, but not so, about it with a pad - though it remains significant. Yes, I do feel there's more "currency" in a repeat the old way, and some may take issue with that. But if it wasn't harder that way, people wouldn't be looking for ways of making it easier.

It was good (sorry!) to see Shauna Coxey working it without a pad, but then she probably has smaller fingers, as well as lighter weight, talent and finesse. I mean, what a low down, cheating so and so!   ;D

I don't think it's enough to just say that climber x is being honest about their tactics, though that's always great. It's a community thing. The fact that technology is always improving emphasises that routes are not fixed "things", they are changing with that technology; it's not a case of exchanging one old given with a new one.

That things aren't "given" , is probably greater reason for differentiating between styles of ascent. There are routes/problems where wearing extra rubber makes more of a difference. Hubble is probably a good example.

If we zoom out a bit - or just use a crap telescope - then where you go from the top of the groove on Mecca, could be considered much of a much-ness, but we have the ability to differentiate. I'm sure that as soon as "padded" ascents of Mecca stop being reported, we'll have more people trying it without.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 17, 2020, 07:17:58 am
Thought I’d share my hard luck story since its recent and on topic (get yer kleenex ready). Had nearly 50 days on Louis Armstrong in Parisellas since 2017. Pretty much the short hard test piece in there. Done crux over 30 time’s, from 2 moves in, been close to holding crux from start etc..Everyone who’s done it since the Fa 13 years ago has done this nails undercut crux (barring (pun) Barrows who surprisingly didn’t find this new kneebar, he did lank it another way though but still fairly hard). Recently Joe Lawson did it kneebarring the crux slap. It’s not like Hubble where’s it’s a bit easier with the kneepad, it’s several grades easier. Instead of a single 7C+ move it’s a static reach to lip. I’ve never tried the knee but fairly sure I’d be able to, no interest in using it as heavily invested in the original way after all that effort, seeing the FA and all the beasts on it over the years; has meaning to me etc.. I’d get nothing out of doing it with the challenge gone, have considered just carrying on as normal but the shines well and truly been taken off and considering the massive amounts of effort it’d take it’d be hard to motivate now it’s compromised. So looking at writing off all that time/ effort. If that hasn’t got you in tears yet then I spent 700 quid to get my hard drive fixed when my kid knocked it over (to get the Louis footage back). Plus was injured for 5 months this year after overtraining for it. C’est la vie I guess ...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 17, 2020, 07:28:58 am
Knee in the blob you undercut? I tried but struggled to fit my baby giraffe shin in the gap.. very possible I missed a foothold though.

DT - as I said earlier, I think there's less currency in climbing shit eliminates. Also, padded ascents of Mecca haven't ever been news and not many people bother going padless so the point your trying to make there is clearly erroneous
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 17, 2020, 07:55:51 am
Knee in the blob you undercut? I tried but struggled to fit my baby giraffe shin in the gap.. very possible I missed a foothold though.


Don’t know actually. Must be
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 17, 2020, 08:27:50 am
this thread has cheered me up

 :2thumbsup:

proper 2020 stuff

thanks lads
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 17, 2020, 08:36:49 am
Anyway - who hacked UKC? My moneys on DT as he was up posting at 2am ;)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Murph on October 17, 2020, 08:42:55 am
Strong thread this. My tuppence.

I once asked Ron what he thought of people doing Careless Torque above a bunch of pads after what he did for the FA.

To paraphrase: "It's all good. I'm glad they are out there doing it."

Obviously (!) its a different proposition without pads. Different pads, I know, but still. But thats how it goes now.

More respect to you if you can do it the hard way but that isn't how it goes these days. See also Brad Pitt and a million other problems.

Grades and descriptions should reflect the easiest way though.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 17, 2020, 09:22:11 am
Interesting story about Louis. (you should have got stronger and done it quicker)

Climbing's a game, with rules to keep it interesting. Why not kneebars for indoor comps? According to some people here they're climbing in a moronic eliminate style after all..
I suppose the obvious answer is that the 'perfect' hard route would require kneebar(s) but still be nails hard, and impossible without them.

I guess the lure of 'collecting' routes with high numbers attached is stronger than the lure of climbing them in a certain eliminate style. Just a shame for those classic hard challenges to lose their lustre.

Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Nibile on October 17, 2020, 09:34:43 am
I sincerely don't get Stu's and Doylo's attitude. The original Hubble and the original Louis are still there, who cares how people climb them?
Climbing is an individual task, I'd only be more motivated to do things in a certain way, by people doing them in another way that I don't like, especially in a historical context.
Not that I climb anymore.
Never Leave The BoardTM.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Andy F on October 17, 2020, 09:40:16 am
Climbing, like everything, evolves.
If Brown and Whillans had cams they'd have used them.
If Ron had pads he'd have used them.
If Basher had a knee pad he'd have used it.

They didn't, so they climbed it in the best way of the time. Just because we have more advanced kit and techniques doesn't take away from previous ascents, or denigrate future ascents. It's the way the game changes.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 17, 2020, 09:57:45 am
I sincerely don't get Stu's and Doylo's attitude. The original Hubble and the original Louis are still there, who cares how people climb them?
Climbing is an individual task, I'd only be more motivated to do things in a certain way, by people doing them in another way that I don't like, especially in a historical context.
Not that I climb anymore.
Never Leave The BoardTM.

Because it’s lost it’s purity. Was a pure hard testpiece, aspirational etc.  It’s not the same if you know you’re doing it a knowingly harder way. Plus not like I don’t use kneepads (Directors etc).
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bradders on October 17, 2020, 10:07:39 am
So looking at writing off all that time/ effort.

No way, why would you do that?! Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to give up on it to me. The challenge is still there, it's not changed, only your perception of it has. Stick with it.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 17, 2020, 10:13:40 am
Why not kneebars for indoor comps? According to some people here they're climbing in a moronic eliminate style after all..
Um.. People do use pads in comps (unless rules have changed recently) - I've defo seen Ondra and Jan with a pad on in comps.

I guess the lure of 'collecting' routes with high numbers attached is stronger than the lure of climbing them in a certain eliminate style. Just a shame for those classic hard challenges to lose their lustre.
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 17, 2020, 10:19:10 am
So looking at writing off all that time/ effort.

No way, why would you do that?! Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to give up on it to me. The challenge is still there, it's not changed, only your perception of it has. Stick with it.

Just how I feel, can’t shake it. Maybe one day. Plus given the massive effort that would be needed to get back to it is hard if psyche is compromised. I haven’t had biceps since the injury, arms are like pipe cleaners now.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 17, 2020, 11:44:36 am
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010

You've misinterpreted me, I'm not having any dig at anybody, wipe some cream on that sensitive spot.
Kneepads make sense to me, and so do people's feelings of disappointment that a challenge they aspired to complete because they perceived it being one thing now seems somehow less appealing because they perceive it being something else. What's the saying... - 'all lived experience is valid'. You shouldn't just tell someone who feels disappointed that they're wrong, they aren't.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 17, 2020, 01:15:28 pm
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010

You've misinterpreted me, I'm not having any dig at anybody, wipe some cream on that sensitive spot.
Kneepads make sense to me, and so do people's feelings of disappointment that a challenge they aspired to complete because they perceived it being one thing now seems somehow less appealing because they perceive it being something else. What's the saying... - 'all lived experience is valid'. You shouldn't just tell someone who feels disappointed that they're wrong, they aren't.

Seems a very reasonable position.

Sometimes, we also want to try to put ourselves in the "lived experience" of others too - including trying to emulate the way that they did things.

I think it's too simplistic to say that if present technology was available to climbers in the past, they'd use it - and by that, I also include new Beta.

More than just getting to the top, climbing seems to be about wanting to feel more "involved"/connected, and we all have preferred vehicles/ways to get to that place.

Using some crappy little spike on an eliminate at Minus 10 might require that I have to let go of myself more, to do a move. Surely the sweetness you access when you latch the move after 100 tries, is the point. If the spike snaps off, and you're left with a solid edge, that allows you to get to the top of "the problem" every time, even when you're climbing badly, then chances are, you might feel that something has been lost.

Isn't "the problem" really "Self" - and letting go of it?

The reason I wouldn't claim Hubble with a knee pad, is simply because that isn't the source of my inspiration. The photo of Ben on it very much might be! .. and everything he's having to release into the effort.

There are old problems in the Peak, with new holds, that I try to do again using the original sequence. I don't gain anything by using the new holds and method.

I do use knee bars on routes, and I have to decide if it's contrived not to put something grippier on my knees. To me, it feels like more of a cheat to add tape and padding - in the way that I prefer to try difficult jamming cracks without tape first. Without ropes (still processing that one) even better. Sometimes I wear clothes.

A couple of other points.
I very rarely climb with modern smaller cams on my harness, for the same reason that I don't have a bouldering mat. Rather than it being better, I feel I'm required to climb better.

Lastly, and this one is for Lore. I feel a little bit uncomfortable, suspecting that I'd have probably crashed my bike already, if I was using original equipment/non-sticky tyres, rather than the super sticky Bridgestones that are fitted!  ;D
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 17, 2020, 01:35:42 pm

DT - as I said earlier, I think there's less currency in climbing shit eliminates. Also, padded ascents of Mecca haven't ever been news and not many people bother going padless so the point your trying to make there is clearly erroneous

Barrows, you miss my point. Sorry. By "currency", I'm not talking about the "thing in itself", but what's exchanged/shared. By referencing Mecca, I wasn't implying that it's "news worthy", but that everything is an eliminate at a particular scale.

Hubble isn't a bad eliminate  ;D

Doylo, thanks for your story. I completely understand why some of the magic has been lost. Maybe you could use Louis for training, and that way, you'll probably do it!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: fiveknuckle21 on October 17, 2020, 01:36:39 pm
Just a couple of anecdotes for what will probably sound like a confused post:

The most recent I can think of is Kipchoge’s sub 2 hour marathon being so widely discredited/vilified, because of his energy returning shoes, that it’s now seen to have been removed from the history books.

 Then there’s the swimsuit debate from the early 2010s when the drag reducing materials were band in competition wear.

 Eddie Halls 500kg vs Thor’s 500kg. The same achievement but under different conditions. Thor’s stands behind it but most of everyone else suggests because it wasn’t done in competition conditions blah blah blah...

 I think the argument hear sounds a lot like the hour record in cycling. Was it 2012/13 when someone finally decided that people didn’t have to ride on an old steel pushbike ‘just like Eddy Merckx’ and could in fact utilise the technology available to push things forward.

 I think climbing has a long way to go before the first three points I made and is probably at the point cycling was at when time trial bars came along. Ultimately people will accept knee pads eventually and will move onto moaning about the next new bit of technology. Energy returning gloves to reduce crimp fatigue? Who knows.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: kac on October 17, 2020, 01:52:09 pm
An interesting personal perspective dave. I can just about understand as although I think your bonkers for not using the good footholds on powerband ive got no interest in lanking past the last move for just the reason you describe. Also good to hear you sometimes wear clothes. Perhaps another ethics debate needed as to whether it should be always!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 17, 2020, 02:23:27 pm
That's a really good example of course - the last move on Powerband  :thumbsup:

(Maybe Doylo can take inspiration from that too!)

Different names for different methods; Powerband Vs Powerspanned/Powerless.

Most of the time I'm *just* trying to train, and not wanting to "try/do" a particular problem - only because I know what level I'm at at the moment, and trying to get some strength back!

The rest of the time, I'm just scared that I still won't be able to repeat things using an easier sequence!  ;D
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Banana finger on October 17, 2020, 04:56:02 pm
Makes me wonder what the future axioms of acceptable 'free climbing' aids are. Off the top of my head it would be something like "only form preserving augmentations to the body" no 'un-natural modifications'. In the sense that climbing shoes are feet shaped and just make feet more grippy / provide more tension. Knee bar pads are a smooth covering of the knee/thigh and don't change the shape. Just makes what is already there more grippy....then comes the matter of augmenting the hands. Chalk / jamming gloves are the current here is guess.
What about some sort of grippy skin you could paint on and peel off afterwards? I guess this is still preserving the natural form of the hand? I guess the above logic excludes clearly obvious non natural modifications like hooks but there is still a grey area.

Obviously this thought has been echoed a million times but it requires some genuine consideration at some point!


Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 17, 2020, 05:24:35 pm
In my (very) limited experience - a knee pad doesn’t so much make you’re knee/leg grippier, more that it stops you making a big hole in your leg/trousers!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fiend on October 17, 2020, 05:29:37 pm
Thoughts & Prayers 4 Doylo tho x
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Aussiegav on October 17, 2020, 06:03:42 pm
I’m surprised no one has mentioned chalk vs no chalk debate yet. Also smearing hands in liquid chalk for performance enhancing skin properties.  :worms: :worms: :worms:
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 17, 2020, 06:27:07 pm
Pof
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: saltbeef on October 17, 2020, 06:41:18 pm
Thought I’d share my hard luck story since its recent and on topic (get yer kleenex ready). Had nearly 50 days on Louis Armstrong in Parisellas since 2017.  Recently Joe Lawson did it kneebarring the crux slap. C’est la vie I guess ...
this was trigger cut for me innit
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 17, 2020, 07:11:59 pm
Thoughts & Prayers 4 Doylo tho x

Least he’s able to articulate his pain in montage form with dicks and helicopters and wads eating baguettes.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 17, 2020, 07:31:51 pm
Thought I’d share my hard luck story since its recent and on topic (get yer kleenex ready). Had nearly 50 days on Louis Armstrong in Parisellas since 2017.  Recently Joe Lawson did it kneebarring the crux slap. C’est la vie I guess ...
this was trigger cut for me innit

Set up a counselling service for those affected?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 17, 2020, 07:40:46 pm
Good effort for doing all those non kneebar moves carrying the extra weight. Must be a little harder due to this???

Just looked up my Moonboard app to see if can provide any clarity on this situation.

Rule 9/ Matching and heel hooking is permitted.

Sadly nothing about knee bars here...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 17, 2020, 07:41:58 pm
Thought I’d share my hard luck story since its recent and on topic (get yer kleenex ready). Had nearly 50 days on Louis Armstrong in Parisellas since 2017.  Recently Joe Lawson did it kneebarring the crux slap. C’est la vie I guess ...
this was trigger cut for me innit

I vote to blow the fucker up. Preferably with the scousers and brummies in situ.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 17, 2020, 08:51:29 pm
I vote to blow the fucker up. Preferably with the scousers and brummies in situ.

What was that war film - where the ‘explosives man’ was a plummy English eccentric who shaped some charges like turds... carried all his bombs in a suitcase. Grimer will know...

Anyway - that would seem appropriate:D
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 17, 2020, 09:14:01 pm
Was only a joke, I like the scousers. Apart from that posh twat MikePsyche but he’s from the Wirral anyway. 
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: 36chambers on October 18, 2020, 08:57:39 am
Just christen the new version as Louis ArmWeak.

That should help psychologically detached the two problems and hopefully put off anyone else from climbing the new problem.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 18, 2020, 10:07:55 am
Could rename the kneebar cheaty supplementary-aid method Lance Armstrong....
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 18, 2020, 12:14:20 pm
Does this mean that kneebars should be thought of as comparable to PEDs in cycling???

Maybe there should be a hierarchy of ascents???

Talk about it on the internet, abseil down / clipstick up, top rope, lead dog, kneebar assisted, lead sans kneebar after practice, onsight putting in the clips, solo.

Sure there could be something similar for bouldering...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Anti on October 18, 2020, 12:39:01 pm
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010

You've misinterpreted me, I'm not having any dig at anybody, wipe some cream on that sensitive spot.
Kneepads make sense to me, and so do people's feelings of disappointment that a challenge they aspired to complete because they perceived it being one thing now seems somehow less appealing because they perceive it being something else. What's the saying... - 'all lived experience is valid'. You shouldn't just tell someone who feels disappointed that they're wrong, they aren't.

Seems a very reasonable position.

Sometimes, we also want to try to put ourselves in the "lived experience" of others too - including trying to emulate the way that they did things.

I think it's too simplistic to say that if present technology was available to climbers in the past, they'd use it - and by that, I also include new Beta.

More than just getting to the top, climbing seems to be about wanting to feel more "involved"/connected, and we all have preferred vehicles/ways to get to that place.

Using some crappy little spike on an eliminate at Minus 10 might require that I have to let go of myself more, to do a move. Surely the sweetness you access when you latch the move after 100 tries, is the point. If the spike snaps off, and you're left with a solid edge, that allows you to get to the top of "the problem" every time, even when you're climbing badly, then chances are, you might feel that something has been lost.

Isn't "the problem" really "Self" - and letting go of it?

The reason I wouldn't claim Hubble with a knee pad, is simply because that isn't the source of my inspiration. The photo of Ben on it very much might be! .. and everything he's having to release into the effort.

There are old problems in the Peak, with new holds, that I try to do again using the original sequence. I don't gain anything by using the new holds and method.

I do use knee bars on routes, and I have to decide if it's contrived not to put something grippier on my knees. To me, it feels like more of a cheat to add tape and padding - in the way that I prefer to try difficult jamming cracks without tape first. Without ropes (still processing that one) even better. Sometimes I wear clothes.

A couple of other points.
I very rarely climb with modern smaller cams on my harness, for the same reason that I don't have a bouldering mat. Rather than it being better, I feel I'm required to climb better.

Lastly, and this one is for Lore. I feel a little bit uncomfortable, suspecting that I'd have probably crashed my bike already, if I was using original equipment/non-sticky tyres, rather than the super sticky Bridgestones that are fitted!  ;D

Presumably despite your honourable no knee pad, no tape jamming you've got modern rubber shoes, not hobnailed boots? Everyone trades in their morals at some point on the scale.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 18, 2020, 01:09:17 pm
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010

You've misinterpreted me, I'm not having any dig at anybody, wipe some cream on that sensitive spot.
Kneepads make sense to me, and so do people's feelings of disappointment that a challenge they aspired to complete because they perceived it being one thing now seems somehow less appealing because they perceive it being something else. What's the saying... - 'all lived experience is valid'. You shouldn't just tell someone who feels disappointed that they're wrong, they aren't.

Seems a very reasonable position.

Sometimes, we also want to try to put ourselves in the "lived experience" of others too - including trying to emulate the way that they did things.

I think it's too simplistic to say that if present technology was available to climbers in the past, they'd use it - and by that, I also include new Beta.

More than just getting to the top, climbing seems to be about wanting to feel more "involved"/connected, and we all have preferred vehicles/ways to get to that place.

Using some crappy little spike on an eliminate at Minus 10 might require that I have to let go of myself more, to do a move. Surely the sweetness you access when you latch the move after 100 tries, is the point. If the spike snaps off, and you're left with a solid edge, that allows you to get to the top of "the problem" every time, even when you're climbing badly, then chances are, you might feel that something has been lost.

Isn't "the problem" really "Self" - and letting go of it?

The reason I wouldn't claim Hubble with a knee pad, is simply because that isn't the source of my inspiration. The photo of Ben on it very much might be! .. and everything he's having to release into the effort.

There are old problems in the Peak, with new holds, that I try to do again using the original sequence. I don't gain anything by using the new holds and method.

I do use knee bars on routes, and I have to decide if it's contrived not to put something grippier on my knees. To me, it feels like more of a cheat to add tape and padding - in the way that I prefer to try difficult jamming cracks without tape first. Without ropes (still processing that one) even better. Sometimes I wear clothes.

A couple of other points.
I very rarely climb with modern smaller cams on my harness, for the same reason that I don't have a bouldering mat. Rather than it being better, I feel I'm required to climb better.

Lastly, and this one is for Lore. I feel a little bit uncomfortable, suspecting that I'd have probably crashed my bike already, if I was using original equipment/non-sticky tyres, rather than the super sticky Bridgestones that are fitted!  ;D

Presumably despite your honourable no knee pad, no tape jamming you've got modern rubber shoes, not hobnailed boots? Everyone trades in their morals at some point on the scale.

Hi Anti.

Thank you for your reply.
Hopefully, if you read my post - about motivations/rewards etc - you'll understand that I'm not making any claims to what is honourable or not, but what I find inspiring, and where to set the bar, so that I'm required to climb better.

I'm sorry if that isn't very clear.
There's something in that, which is similar to getting on things we're not very good at. When we improve/succeed, it's often more rewarding.

I tend to think that I would prefer it, if there was less "tech" - things might be simpler - but it's easy to say that now, rather than squeezing into a pair of Firés (the old Boreal sticky boots from '83) that don't fit.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Anti on October 18, 2020, 01:38:08 pm
Interesting, I suppose I come across as snarky but I mean more that we all have a sliding scale as to what we think is a fair ascent.

I suppose we all have similar inclinations, we often prefer to do something with a certain beta just because it feels fun that way despite not perhaps being optimal (tho not at our limit).

I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 18, 2020, 01:46:33 pm
Just Vectors, white socks, 1/2 length stone monkey tights (and a rack full of friends) in that photo of Grimer pulling on the crux...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: gme on October 18, 2020, 01:53:34 pm
I think modern boots would have had as bigger effect on doing Hubble than the knee bar but no one seems bothered by that ( rightly).

More interestingly it seems to be settling at 9a as I don’t think anyone has downgraded it. Only megos has said 8c+ out of the most recent ascents and he was never going to say 9a.

Personally still think it should be 8c+ and just be hard though but that doesn’t work as all the other uk routes have been upgraded. All seemed fine years ago.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 18, 2020, 03:01:30 pm
Interesting, I suppose I come across as snarky but I mean more that we all have a sliding scale as to what we think is a fair ascent.

I suppose we all have similar inclinations, we often prefer to do something with a certain beta just because it feels fun that way despite not perhaps being optimal (tho not at our limit).

I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.

I don't think it's one or the other.

Critiquing things, is what we do, to differentiate. It helps us understand what we're talking about, and it feels as though sometimes, people don't want to differentiate.

It's a valid question/observation, to consider how much easier certain routes/problems are with things like pads, or with Beta that might seem contrived/eliminate. It's not a case of saying one thing is valid, the other, not, but we do have scales of difficulty.

Often the comparison seems misplaced. It would seem to make sense to ask how Hubble with a pad compares in difficulty to other routes - say Evolution, Kaabah (not very good comparisons either, I know!).

I do suspect that the motivation to climb Hubble with a pad, comes from some degree of fixed notion of what Hubble is - rather than fully considering just how different the two ways are.

People have an idea of what Hubble means, and that is the draw. Hubble with a pad is put closer to the same category as Hubble without, rather than another route.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Dac on October 18, 2020, 03:03:31 pm
I feel that in any climbing we all have our own personal interpretation of what constitutes a fair and valid ascent; and this varies from person to person, from place to place as well as over time.

I was quite satisfied with climbing a E3 from the seventies over 3 bouldering mats the other week, despite the first ascentionist having no such luxury; however if I had top roped it first I would have felt like I had ‘cheated’. Someone else may have felt the pads were cheating; or may have been happy just to climb the route on top rope.

A lot of the joy of climbing, and why it attracts many who shun ‘organised sport’ is that it has no rules. As long as you don’t damage things for others or lie about what you’ve done it’s all good really.


Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Anti on October 18, 2020, 03:15:02 pm
Interesting, I suppose I come across as snarky but I mean more that we all have a sliding scale as to what we think is a fair ascent.

I suppose we all have similar inclinations, we often prefer to do something with a certain beta just because it feels fun that way despite not perhaps being optimal (tho not at our limit).

I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.
It's not a case of saying one thing is valid, the other, not, but we do have scales of difficulty.

It feels like initially that's exactly what you did by saying you didn't think it a valid ascent by your internal standards, although rather than euphemism it would seem to have just been poorly worded as you elaborate further.

In the context of Hubble its all academic anyway, even a crane couldn't get me up it and no-one would call that a fair tick.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 18, 2020, 08:18:24 pm

It feels like initially that's exactly what you did by saying you didn't think it a valid ascent by your internal standards, although rather than euphemism it would seem to have just been poorly worded as you elaborate further.

In the context of Hubble its all academic anyway, even a crane couldn't get me up it and no-one would call that a fair tick.

Hi Anti.

It may feel that way, but not intended.

However, I don't think you can validly claim that one way is the same as/equivalent to the other. They ARE different, and I think the degree of difference is an interesting debate.

When things are sufficiently different, they then get called different things.

Couple of points.

Take Northern Lights at Kilnsey.
Steve McC climbed it with a slightly different line/holds to those that Ben (and Malc?) used. How different - in terms of difficulty - are the different lines? Are they different routes? In some settings they might be considered different lines. We think of things as different, when it's useful. With Hubble, yes, I think it's more representative to consider them different.

Regarding the question of validity - think about it (sorry) - what wouldn't be valid about your ascent with a crane. Granted, I'd accept you wouldn't validly claim they were equivalent ascents  ;D

Take it easy though, the Red-crowned Crane is the heaviest, and can weigh up to 12kg. That's probably more than Ben's dreads weighed.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 18, 2020, 08:57:46 pm
Oooo, opened up a whole new philosophical can of worms now. Has anyone repeated anything ever???

Anyone know of any twins that go climbing???
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: moose on October 18, 2020, 09:25:52 pm
Ben and Jon Freeman are identical twins and both pretty handy.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 19, 2020, 01:01:11 am
Oooo, opened up a whole new philosophical can of worms now. Has anyone repeated anything ever???

Anyone know of any twins that go climbing???

Ha! Brilliant.. and by the same token, there's no such thing as a "first ascent".

Consider the ship of Theseus in Greek mythology, and similar ideas in Buddhism, although I don't think it requires particularly obscure or mystic thought.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 19, 2020, 06:58:32 am
And by the same reasoning you never do the same problem in the same way (exactly...) even if you think you do.

Which is why a problem sometimes feels easy - or good - or not good - or tough , if you repeat it often....

Which is one of the many reasons why I like climbing so much.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Anti on October 19, 2020, 07:28:24 am

It feels like initially that's exactly what you did by saying you didn't think it a valid ascent by your internal standards, although rather than euphemism it would seem to have just been poorly worded as you elaborate further.

In the context of Hubble its all academic anyway, even a crane couldn't get me up it and no-one would call that a fair tick.

Hi Anti.

It may feel that way, but not intended.

However, I don't think you can validly claim that one way is the same as/equivalent to the other. They ARE different, and I think the degree of difference is an interesting debate.

When things are sufficiently different, they then get called different things.

Couple of points.

Take Northern Lights at Kilnsey.
Steve McC climbed it with a slightly different line/holds to those that Ben (and Malc?) used. How different - in terms of difficulty - are the different lines? Are they different routes? In some settings they might be considered different lines. We think of things as different, when it's useful. With Hubble, yes, I think it's more representative to consider them different.

Regarding the question of validity - think about it (sorry) - what wouldn't be valid about your ascent with a crane. Granted, I'd accept you wouldn't validly claim they were equivalent ascents  ;D

Take it easy though, the Red-crowned Crane is the heaviest, and can weigh up to 12kg. That's probably more than Ben's dreads weighed.

Well this gets into an even deeper territory of why you climb a route at all haha. Are you looking to mimic the exact first ascent, move for move, imagining yourself as your childhood hero, or is it starting in the same place, ending in the same place and using a different toolkit overcoming the same challenges?

If your argument is where does the line between different beta and different route come in then it's individual interpretation, is the original route an eliminate and even an intermediate is out, or would there be key defined holds that one has to use? In my guidebooks routes are defined by a wiggly line up a cliff face and I enjoy the ambiguity in that. We all agree where they start and finish and what happens in the middle is your own personal battle. You clipped the chains and you get the tick. Dreadlocks or not.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 19, 2020, 01:12:35 pm
Two things.

1. The same place doesn't really exist  ;D - although by consensus, we choose to see it that way.

2. I tend to think that the purpose of discussion like this, is to help decide what interpretation to collectively use.

Actually,

3. Yes, ambiguity in climbing can be a really enjoyable part of the process. Sometimes it's part of the adventure. Sometimes we use it to our advantage. Sometimes it's a pain in the bum. Sometimes we deceive ourselves.

Don't give up on Hubble. In Japan, they say that a thousand folded paper cranes can make a wish come true  :2thumbsup:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50504764258_05001272e7_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Anti on October 19, 2020, 02:04:27 pm
A thousand? Any skincare tips for papercuts? Heel balm?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 19, 2020, 06:05:57 pm
I am offended by the picture of storks in reference to cranes
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on October 19, 2020, 06:25:03 pm
After a week away, I first read the "topic slit" as "topic sit" and thought why the hell someone would do a sit start to Hubble with a kneepad.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 19, 2020, 07:26:16 pm
A thousand? Any skincare tips for papercuts? Heel balm?

That's a good humoured response   :clap2:

Sorry about all the references to Cranes  ;D Hope it wasn't too obscure. The picture reminded me of the pack hanging out beneath Mecca.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 19, 2020, 08:05:02 pm
Is this the pack that's ridden to the Tor on their Electric Bikes???
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: remus on October 19, 2020, 09:04:59 pm
Let's hope we dont have to try and work out how hard this is with/without knees https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JrnE77MEQ
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on October 19, 2020, 09:39:46 pm
getting a blow from a fan whilst in a kneebar, seen it all now.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 19, 2020, 09:41:19 pm
getting a blow from a fan whilst in a kneebar, seen it all now.

Is that just out of the top of the shot?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on October 19, 2020, 09:48:05 pm
probably, he's definitely got that look.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 19, 2020, 10:07:01 pm
Highly impressive bout of climbing.

The non kneebar crowd can think of it as a multi-pitch route...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Dexter on October 20, 2020, 10:53:46 am
getting a blow from a fan whilst in a kneebar, seen it all now.

This sounds like a pr0no for Barrows "American gets a blow from a fan while in double kneebar"
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: fatneck on October 20, 2020, 03:28:36 pm
Thread of the year for me  :hug:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Danny on October 20, 2020, 06:24:25 pm
Let's hope we dont have to try and work out how hard this is with/without knees https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JrnE77MEQ

Couldn't be arsed reading the whole thread, but I did watch Mitbo doing Ali Hulk for comparison here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6CkmmDsjw&ab_channel=BAProductions91 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6CkmmDsjw&ab_channel=BAProductions91)

I like DG, but how he can claim 9b for this (front and centre, in the title of his video) given how many times he takes both hands off for a rest is beyond me. Surely they're grades apart.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: monkoffunk on October 20, 2020, 08:57:06 pm
Let's hope we dont have to try and work out how hard this is with/without knees https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JrnE77MEQ

Couldn't be arsed reading the whole thread, but I did watch Mitbo doing Ali Hulk for comparison here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6CkmmDsjw&ab_channel=BAProductions91 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6CkmmDsjw&ab_channel=BAProductions91)

I like DG, but how he can claim 9b for this (front and centre, in the title of his video) given how many times he takes both hands off for a rest is beyond me. Surely they're grades apart.

What’s the no hands rest limit for a 9b?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: User deactivated on October 20, 2020, 09:15:30 pm

I like DG, but how he can claim 9b for this (front and centre, in the title of his video) given how many times he takes both hands off for a rest is beyond me. Surely they're grades apart.

I feel like this is something that happens all the time, people see a kneebar and instantly dismiss the climb as massively easier or just piss full stop, on good kneebars that miss out hard moves this is sometimes the case, but it's damn sure often not the case too. Isla de Encanta for example, I believe Barrows has tried that kneebar and i'd guess will attest to how hard it is. All those kneebars on Pilgrimage would have probably taken me (a kneebar novice) an eternity to learn and get right. Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

I'm not saying it is 9b still, I couldn't tell you if it is, but perhaps for that reason you shouldn't say it's easier than that grade and we should just take one of the worlds most experienced climbers at his word.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: webbo on October 20, 2020, 09:19:43 pm
However it’s a bit Tortoise and the Hare compared to the other guys ascent.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 20, 2020, 10:10:32 pm
Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

No opinion on the grade of Ali Hulk but just to point out that a sport grade is supposed to be *entirely* about physical difficulty and nothing else.

(and that DG vid is the most bizarre climbing footage I think I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty from Doylo's cutting room floor).
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Yossarian on October 20, 2020, 10:25:59 pm
I wish they’d stuck with the female narrator in that video, and when he got to the top she’d announced, “You’re my wife now Dave”.

I’d also like to confirm that London Climber will be collaborating on a limited edition collection of oak bark-tanned leather knee pads, with cast brass buckles.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Sasquatch on October 20, 2020, 10:31:24 pm
Is it just me or did they finish different?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 20, 2020, 10:35:23 pm
I haven’t watched - did the upside down fan blowing have a “happy ending”?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 20, 2020, 10:38:45 pm
I wish they’d stuck with the female narrator in that video, and when he got to the top she’d announced, “You’re my wife now Dave”.

I’d also like to confirm that London Climber will be collaborating on a limited edition collection of oak bark-tanned leather knee pads, with cast brass buckles.

Presumably you can get them monogrammed in gold leaf and the leather will be ethically sourced?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 20, 2020, 10:50:10 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6CkmmDsjw&ab_channel=BAProductions91 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6CkmmDsjw&ab_channel=BAProductions91)

Check the rope dab at 4:19. He'll get it for sure. Kneepad might help next time?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: User deactivated on October 20, 2020, 10:51:30 pm
Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

No opinion on the grade of Ali Hulk but just to point out that a sport grade is supposed to be *entirely* about physical difficulty and nothing else.

(and that DG vid is the most bizarre climbing footage I think I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty from Doylo's cutting room floor).

Is that how it works in the real world though? Certainly isn't on boulders, things with shite footholds or marginal heel hooks get bigger grades because they are technically more difficult. I assumed that in today's world of sport climbing these things would be factored in. To take it to the extreme, surely some of Meltdown or other slab like sport routes grades come from the fact that the feet are terrible and they are technically difficult, no?

Regardless i'd wager this isn't a path just cause Dave manages to hang off his knees a few times.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: jwi on October 20, 2020, 10:52:08 pm
Is it just me or did they finish different?
No, they finish differently. Midtbø is doing no2 below, Graham no1.
Code: [Select]
1:       Ali Hulk (extension total sit start)    9b
2:            Ali Hulk (sitstart + extension)    9b
3: Ali Hulk (fin de extension total sitstart)   9a+
4:                       Ali Hulk (extension)   9a+
5:                 Ali Hulk (extension total)   9a+
6:                        Ali Hulk (sitstart)   9a+
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 20, 2020, 10:58:08 pm
Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

No opinion on the grade of Ali Hulk but just to point out that a sport grade is supposed to be *entirely* about physical difficulty and nothing else.

(and that DG vid is the most bizarre climbing footage I think I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty from Doylo's cutting room floor).

Is that how it works in the real world though? Certainly isn't on boulders, things with shite footholds or marginal heel hooks get bigger grades because they are technically more difficult. I assumed that in today's world of sport climbing these things would be factored in. To take it to the extreme, surely some of Meltdown or other slab like sport routes grades come from the fact that the feet are terrible and they are technically difficult, no?

Regardless i'd wager this isn't a path just cause Dave manages to hang off his knees a few times.

I think when Pete says "physical difficulty" then that includes all that technique faff too. The bits that aren't factored into the number are things like it being a long walk in or tricky to find in nick or tricky to work the beta. They might affect the difficulty of doing the route, but not the number.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: User deactivated on October 20, 2020, 11:20:22 pm
Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

No opinion on the grade of Ali Hulk but just to point out that a sport grade is supposed to be *entirely* about physical difficulty and nothing else.

(and that DG vid is the most bizarre climbing footage I think I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty from Doylo's cutting room floor).

Is that how it works in the real world though? Certainly isn't on boulders, things with shite footholds or marginal heel hooks get bigger grades because they are technically more difficult. I assumed that in today's world of sport climbing these things would be factored in. To take it to the extreme, surely some of Meltdown or other slab like sport routes grades come from the fact that the feet are terrible and they are technically difficult, no?

Regardless i'd wager this isn't a path just cause Dave manages to hang off his knees a few times.

I think when Pete says "physical difficulty" then that includes all that technique faff too. The bits that aren't factored into the number are things like it being a long walk in or tricky to find in nick or tricky to work the beta. They might affect the difficulty of doing the route, but not the number.

Ah fair, I see. I totally get that. Remembering beta ain't part of the grading. I kind of put that line amongst text it wasn't relevant to i guess.

I just often see bits of climbing dimissed as far easier just because of a kneebar or a new method or something, and find it hard to work out how people know from watching a vid. So long as the climber is honest about how hard they felt it was it should be fairly easy to see how much it changes the climb if at all.

It's like when someone says Ned has been and 'broke' something with a heel hook, I'd wager if they went and tried said heel hook they'd leave with their tail between their legs, in my experience they are usually shit and nearly impossible. Same for Barrows and the kneebars. People just dismiss them as piss, it's very often not the case. Both are often technically super hard as it's skills they've taken years to acquire and worked at for along time.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 21, 2020, 06:20:30 am
Be like Malc, "stey opon"

Any of the kneebar dab police able to pass comment on the latter portion of this clip???

https://youtu.be/ngQbNJeCVls
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Danny on October 21, 2020, 07:48:10 am

I like DG, but how he can claim 9b for this (front and centre, in the title of his video) given how many times he takes both hands off for a rest is beyond me. Surely they're grades apart.

I feel like this is something that happens all the time, people see a kneebar and instantly dismiss the climb as massively easier or just piss full stop, on good kneebars that miss out hard moves this is sometimes the case, but it's damn sure often not the case too. Isla de Encanta for example, I believe Barrows has tried that kneebar and i'd guess will attest to how hard it is. All those kneebars on Pilgrimage would have probably taken me (a kneebar novice) an eternity to learn and get right. Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

I'm not saying it is 9b still, I couldn't tell you if it is, but perhaps for that reason you shouldn't say it's easier than that grade and we should just take one of the worlds most experienced climbers at his word.

I dunno Jack. I'm happy to speculate from my armchair about shit I'll never climb. I'd say 50 knees on a route probably make it easier.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Danny on October 21, 2020, 08:06:20 am
As a weak lank I'm always on the hunt for a knee. Love the style. Barrows on Pilgrimage is amazing to watch. I don't understand the point about some knees being technical. Surely most knees make things at least marginally easier, or doable. That's why we use them.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 21, 2020, 08:52:33 am
Isla de Encanta for example, I believe Barrows has tried that kneebar
I haven't actually, but I've certainly found knees that are very technically challenging - often so hard that it becomes better for me not to use them, though it seemed like someone with 10% more skill would get it to work.. There are also very easy ones. Same as heels, as you say. I think I recall a conversation with Mason after he'd been in the US and climbed with DG where he was very impressed by DG's knee skills.

I don't understand the point about some knees being technical. Surely most knees make things at least marginally easier, or doable.
The knees that you use make things easier, otherwise you wouldn't use them. Same as heels. I'm not entirely sure what you don't understand about Jack's post? His point was that, like Ned can use heels that others struggle to get to work, there are times when a knee makes it easier for someone good at knees but when many/some people won't have the requisite technical ability on that style of move to make it work. (I've definitely done, for example, 7B boulders with a 7B+ sequence due to a lack of skills with my heels before)

Anyway, despite my firm agreeent with Jack about armchair downgrading being dumb, Jose Luis Palao posted this on insta after doing various of the Ali Baba links, so it seems like there may be downgrades coming:
La cueva "Ali baba" No estamos escalando las mísmas vias o boulders que hace cerca 15 años hizo sus primeras ascensiónes @dani_andrada_climb ,
Aún teniendo una nueva extensión,(extensión total) y sea en teoría más dura..., aparecen nuevas presas,nuevos métodos, nuevos recursos con las "RODILLERAS" , lo que la ha convertido en un estilo de escalada más asequible.

Para mí esto es más importante que un número y una letra es seguir con la filosofía que yo aprendí en mis inicios, que creo que se está perdiendo no siempre más es más, hay que aceptar que esto no es lo que era con sus pros y sus contras, pero realmente da que pensar,... yo no quiero contribuir a esta manera de entender la escalada, por eso comparto esta opinión.


which Google translates as
The cave "Ali baba" We are not climbing the same routes or boulders that about 15 years ago made his first ascents @dani_andrada_climb,
Even having a new extension, (total extension) and it is in theory more difficult ..., new holds, new methods, new resources with the "KNEE PADS" appear, which has made it a more affordable climbing style.

For me this is more important than a number and a letter is to continue with the philosophy that I learned in my beginnings, which I think is being lost not always more is more, we must accept that this is not what it was with its pros and its cons, but it really gives food for thought, ... I don't want to contribute to this way of understanding climbing, that's why I share this opinion.

If anyone can do a better translation, but I assume he's saying that it all needs a downgrade for the new beta (he did them with pads), and people shouldn't kid themselves.

Andrada's comment in reply::
Bueno primo en verdad da igual lo que se hizo Haze años, lo importante es lo que se hace ahora vivir el presente , al final cada uno sabe lo que hace y el ego mata al ser humano ya lo sabes, las rodilleras es una evolución y está claro que jode las vías de antes del 2015 pero bueno , es lo qe ay , cada momento tiene su historia y las vías cambian como la vida, se rompen presas crecen presas ... Tu ya sabes al final da igual , más daño hace el Instagram y nadie se queja por qué ay todos somos muy guay ssss , postura para que el mundo lo vea...

Well, cousin, it really doesn't matter what Haze was done years ago, the important thing is what one does now live in the present, in the end everyone knows what they are doing and the ego kills the human being, you know, knee pads is an evolution and It is clear that it fucks the tracks before 2015 but hey, that's what it is, every moment has its history and the tracks change like life, damsholds break, damsholds grow ... You already know in the end it does not matter, more damage does Instagram and nobody complains why oh we are all very cool ssss, position for the world to see ...

Which I read as "smash on with the knees, routes change, who cares, let's downgrade the fuckers" (as an aside, people were definitely climbing with rubber kneepads in 2011 when I was in Rodellar, so his chronology may involve some artistic license)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 21, 2020, 09:07:26 am
I think when Pete says "physical difficulty" then that includes all that technique faff too. The bits that aren't factored into the number are things like it being a long walk in or tricky to find in nick or tricky to work the beta. They might affect the difficulty of doing the route, but not the number.

In reality, route grades tend to broadly focus on the physical/technical difficulty, but they do often give "bonus points" for some aspects of "how hard is it to do" as well as "how hard is it". On the whole, I think people are quite good at separating out things like walk-ins and wetness from their views on difficulty, but less so things like whether the route is hard to work and find beta for. I get the impression that highball grades often also work a little bit like this (highballs being physically a little easier for the grade), though I'm less experienced there.

Example 1: take a short bouldery 8b. Now instead of starting off the floor, make it start after a 25m 7a to a no-hander on a ledge. The route is no harder physically (you can rest to zero on the ledge), but is now a lot harder to do if near your limit. If only because you now get 4 redpoints per day when you fall off move 3 of the boulder, rather than 40 repoints per day. In my experience this type of route might get a little "bump", and be given more like 8b+.
Example 2: Mandela - 8a climbing in an 8a+ position
Example 3: things in roofs with bolts that are far apart making refining perfect beta almost impossible

I appreciate that this may not be how sport grades are "supposed" to work, but in the real world people just grade things on roughly how hard they feel, which ends up being a combination of "how hard is it" and "how hard is it to do" (while, imperfectly, trying to factor out the obvious stuff like wetness and walk-ins)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 21, 2020, 09:09:34 am
Barrows on Pilgrimage is amazing to watch. .

Bloody pervert.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 21, 2020, 09:27:48 am
"smash on with the knees, routes change, who cares, let's downgrade the fuckers"

Thats got to go on a T Shirt :D
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 21, 2020, 09:28:54 am
UKB did something weird when I edited my post slightly and I ended up with a new post I can't get rid of...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 21, 2020, 09:37:48 am
UKB did something weird when I edited my post slightly and I ended up with a new post I can't get rid of...

Thats wouldn't look so good on a T Shirt...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 21, 2020, 10:51:14 am
Looking forwards to wearing that t-shirt next time in font, struggling with a rounded top out...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Danny on October 21, 2020, 11:10:22 am
Isla de Encanta for example, I believe Barrows has tried that kneebar
I haven't actually, but I've certainly found knees that are very technically challenging - often so hard that it becomes better for me not to use them, though it seemed like someone with 10% more skill would get it to work.. There are also very easy ones. Same as heels, as you say. I think I recall a conversation with Mason after he'd been in the US and climbed with DG where he was very impressed by DG's knee skills.

I don't understand the point about some knees being technical. Surely most knees make things at least marginally easier, or doable.
The knees that you use make things easier, otherwise you wouldn't use them. Same as heels. I'm not entirely sure what you don't understand about Jack's post? His point was that, like Ned can use heels that others struggle to get to work, there are times when a knee makes it easier for someone good at knees but when many/some people won't have the requisite technical ability on that style of move to make it work. (I've definitely done, for example, 7B boulders with a 7B+ sequence due to a lack of skills with my heels before)

Anyway, despite my firm agreeent with Jack about armchair downgrading being dumb, Jose Luis Palao posted this on insta after doing various of the Ali Baba links, so it seems like there may be downgrades coming:
La cueva "Ali baba" No estamos escalando las mísmas vias o boulders que hace cerca 15 años hizo sus primeras ascensiónes @dani_andrada_climb ,
Aún teniendo una nueva extensión,(extensión total) y sea en teoría más dura..., aparecen nuevas presas,nuevos métodos, nuevos recursos con las "RODILLERAS" , lo que la ha convertido en un estilo de escalada más asequible.

Para mí esto es más importante que un número y una letra es seguir con la filosofía que yo aprendí en mis inicios, que creo que se está perdiendo no siempre más es más, hay que aceptar que esto no es lo que era con sus pros y sus contras, pero realmente da que pensar,... yo no quiero contribuir a esta manera de entender la escalada, por eso comparto esta opinión.


which Google translates as
The cave "Ali baba" We are not climbing the same routes or boulders that about 15 years ago made his first ascents @dani_andrada_climb,
Even having a new extension, (total extension) and it is in theory more difficult ..., new holds, new methods, new resources with the "KNEE PADS" appear, which has made it a more affordable climbing style.

For me this is more important than a number and a letter is to continue with the philosophy that I learned in my beginnings, which I think is being lost not always more is more, we must accept that this is not what it was with its pros and its cons, but it really gives food for thought, ... I don't want to contribute to this way of understanding climbing, that's why I share this opinion.

If anyone can do a better translation, but I assume he's saying that it all needs a downgrade for the new beta (he did them with pads), and people shouldn't kid themselves.

Andrada's comment in reply::
Bueno primo en verdad da igual lo que se hizo Haze años, lo importante es lo que se hace ahora vivir el presente , al final cada uno sabe lo que hace y el ego mata al ser humano ya lo sabes, las rodilleras es una evolución y está claro que jode las vías de antes del 2015 pero bueno , es lo qe ay , cada momento tiene su historia y las vías cambian como la vida, se rompen presas crecen presas ... Tu ya sabes al final da igual , más daño hace el Instagram y nadie se queja por qué ay todos somos muy guay ssss , postura para que el mundo lo vea...

Well, cousin, it really doesn't matter what Haze was done years ago, the important thing is what one does now live in the present, in the end everyone knows what they are doing and the ego kills the human being, you know, knee pads is an evolution and It is clear that it fucks the tracks before 2015 but hey, that's what it is, every moment has its history and the tracks change like life, damsholds break, damsholds grow ... You already know in the end it does not matter, more damage does Instagram and nobody complains why oh we are all very cool ssss, position for the world to see ...

Which I read as "smash on with the knees, routes change, who cares, let's downgrade the fuckers" (as an aside, people were definitely climbing with rubber kneepads in 2011 when I was in Rodellar, so his chronology may involve some artistic license)

Maybe I misread Jack's post. I can't see how the fact that he's crap with knees has any bearing on how being good with knees might reduce the difficulty of a route.

Didn't Ondra just downgrade one of Ghisolfi's routes when he found a single minging knee? I can't be arsed counting the number of knees Graham uses on Ail Hulk, but it looks to be in the range of dozens. I'm pretty happy speculating that it's easier with knees. Also a nicer style I think. Engineering a less basic path through the difficulties is something I aspire to.

And what Google-translated and Barrows-paraphrased Andrada said. 

 
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Danny on October 21, 2020, 11:13:32 am
Barrows on Pilgrimage is amazing to watch. .

Bloody pervert.

Always  :)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 21, 2020, 11:23:48 am
Quote from: JackPal
It's like when someone says Ned has been and 'broke' something with a heel hook, I'd wager if they went and tried said heel hook they'd leave with their tail between their legs, in my experience they are usually shit and nearly impossible. Same for Barrows and the kneebars. People just dismiss them as piss, it's very often not the case. Both are often technically super hard as it's skills they've taken years to acquire and worked at for along time.

100% agree with this for heelhooks. Having spent years seeing Robins pull through off his heels on endless crux sequences.. and people trying to replicate what he did discovering that what he did is actually impossible for them.
 
I accept the same technicality can be true for some marginal kneescums or kneebars, however I'd suggest that kneebars usually require less flexibility and skillset that heels do.

And as Danny suggests, even from the armchair it’s obvious that some of those kneebars on the Ali Hulk footage aren’t marginal - he’s locked in on both knees fully resting both arms for ages. No doubt his core and legs are getting a beasting while he's resting his arms, however legs do have massively more work capacity than arms - I’ve never fallen off anything steep because my legs were too tired to hang on and doubt anyone else has (maybe from a bat-hang?)..

It does seem from the armchair that DG climbs a very different physical challenge to Mitdboe.

If routes should be graded to reflect the easiest and most common way of doing them... then the outcome is obvious.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: remus on October 21, 2020, 11:38:33 am
I accept the same technicality can be true for some marginal kneescums or kneebars, however I'd suggest that kneebars usually require less flexibility and skillset that heels do.

Personally I've found this to be less and less true the better I've got at knee barring. I think it's just that most people aren't great at knee bars so the ones you see on a day to day are the obvious ones that don't require much technique.

Body position on knees is pretty key, and having the hip flexibility to get your body in the optimal spot to get the most from a knee is not something many people are good at. Similarly marginal knees often need plenty of calf power to make them work which isn't something many people are good at.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: User deactivated on October 21, 2020, 11:39:57 am
Pete and his golden heels!

Yeah I agree, downgrades on the way for sure. Bring it on.

Danny, I was just saying some knees are hard and I don’t rate people downgrading over the internet that’s all. And yeah my knee skills are rubbish, something to work on along with a million other things.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 21, 2020, 11:57:18 am
I’ve never fallen off anything steep because my legs were too tired to hang on and doubt anyone else has

I've
1) fallen out of a no-hands kneebar because I got sloppy and stopped pushing into it hard enough (see that Ondra kneebar video - was glad to see it's not just me that's fallen out of a no-hands!)
2) Kneebarred on my hand on an onsight and fallen off trying to extricate myself from the situation
3) Regularly had to leave a knee because my legs, core and head are too pumped, then fallen on the next section because I'd failed to recover enough in the rest. This is almost precisely "falling off something steep because my legs were too tired"
So while I'd always take a rest when it's available, I translate your comment as "I don't climb steep, long 3D and/or tufa routes very often and especially not onsight"  :P
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 21, 2020, 12:01:37 pm
Last summer, I'm told Eder Lopez was attempting to demonstrate how 'good' the kneebar on Cry Freedom is (when you have a core of steel) by hanging hands off. A few seconds later he was plummeting down the crag upside down.  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 21, 2020, 12:14:54 pm
I’ve never fallen off anything steep because my legs were too tired to hang on and doubt anyone else has

I've
1) fallen out of a no-hands kneebar because I got sloppy and stopped pushing into it hard enough (see that Ondra kneebar video - was glad to see it's not just me that's fallen out of a no-hands!)
2) Kneebarred on my hand on an onsight and fallen off trying to extricate myself from the situation
3) Regularly had to leave a knee because my legs, core and head are too pumped, then fallen on the next section because I'd failed to recover enough in the rest. This is almost precisely "falling off something steep because my legs were too tired"
So while I'd always take a rest when it's available, I translate your comment as "I don't climb steep, long 3D and/or tufa routes very often and especially not onsight"  :P

You're correct about the 3D and tufa bit. And probably the onsight bit unless it's steep mixed! (Which can be very 3D, more so in some ways than rockclimbing).

And seeing as, ahead of the oncoming apocalypse, we're all in debate mode today I feel the need to retort with the obvious observation that had you not used the kneebar 'rests' then you'd probably have fallen off due to your arms failing long before your legs failed after the kneebar 'rest'.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 21, 2020, 12:23:53 pm
Here's an article by Edu Marin on kneepads on new routes and resetting grades for old routes. He seems to suggest a dual grading for older routes instead of downgrading - La Rambla at 9a+ or 9a(KP).
I think that would be too clumsy to adopt. Like others say, just regrade for most common and easiest sequence. Although Panton did it for the cave - dual grades with/without pads.

https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/edu-marin-knee-pads-and-grades/?cn-reloaded=1

''So what about those routes not originally graded with knee pads in mind, such as La Rambla?  Should we need give it a lower grade, and do the same to all of the routes that are now more frequently climbed with knee pads? While downgrading is one option, it does not seem fair to me that climbers who have invested years of work to achieve these projects will now see them downgraded by other climbers who use knee pads but do not note the difference.

In my opinion, another option is to add a new piece of info to the grading system, something that explains whether knee pads (KP) were used or not. The grade for a climb like Catxasa, for example could be either “9a (KP)” or “9a+ (no KP)
''
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: jwi on October 21, 2020, 01:01:18 pm
Didn't Ondra just downgrade one of Ghisolfi's routes when he found a single minging knee?

I gathered from the comments on here https://www.instagram.com/p/CGc7CH2DNK9/ that Jakob Schubert didn't think the knee helped much...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: AMorris on October 21, 2020, 01:52:38 pm
I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.

The Hubble bubble, kneebar trouble.
Polished choss and sika'd rubble.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Sasquatch on October 21, 2020, 06:04:14 pm
I accept the same technicality can be true for some marginal kneescums or kneebars, however I'd suggest that kneebars usually require less flexibility and skillset that heels do.

Personally I've found this to be less and less true the better I've got at knee barring. I think it's just that most people aren't great at knee bars so the ones you see on a day to day are the obvious ones that don't require much technique.

Body position on knees is pretty key, and having the hip flexibility to get your body in the optimal spot to get the most from a knee is not something many people are good at. Similarly marginal knees often need plenty of calf power to make them work which isn't something many people are good at.
:agree:
There is an entire subset of strength/morphology needed to make many kneebars work well.  I've spent years now trying to get better and kneebarring, and I'm finally not complete crap at it.  I can see most reasonable kneebars, and get into them.  Not all work for me, and in many cases they are not easier for me. 
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 21, 2020, 09:09:49 pm
I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.

The Hubble bubble, kneebar trouble.
Polished choss and sika'd rubble.

Ha ha. Very good!  :thumbsup:

Personally, I find the extra faff a bit much. I'm more into Midtboe on Ali Hulk than the Graham version, though you can't say that one is valid, the other not.

Regarding grades, I've always seen them - on sport - as a sort of price at which things get traded..:

"Has been climbed (traded) at 9a.. but goes at 9a+ pure.."

Something like that.

Good to categorise both ways on some routes, but not all.
At a personal level, would anyone be too bothered? i.e. trying Grooved Arete at Kilnsey, just try it without KPs as a personal challenge. If the route's graded for the easiest way (though I'd prefer it if it wasn't for pads), then you'd just be aware that what you're doing is just a bit harder.

In some ways, that makes it sound a bit like the development of rear cassettes on push bikes. You just have a few more gears to go at!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 21, 2020, 09:43:42 pm
Kneepads on Grooved Arete are purely for comfort. I climbed it circa 2005 with a doubled up scarf tied round my knee. It would have been no harder without the scarf, just a lot more painful. Go down your proposed route and what do you give masocist padless ascents using a naked kneebar (other than a gold medal for stupidity)? Or is the grade for not using the kneebar regardless of padding? In which case, how much do I get for a one footed, or no thumbs ascent?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: moose on October 21, 2020, 10:08:06 pm
Kneepads on Grooved Arete are purely for comfort. I climbed it circa 2005 with a doubled up scarf tied round my knee. It would have been no harder without the scarf, just a lot more painful. Go down your proposed route and what do you give masocist padless ascents using a naked kneebar (other than a gold medal for stupidity)? Or is the grade for not using the kneebar regardless of padding? In which case, how much do I get for a one footed, or no thumbs ascent?

And what about ascents with no knee pad but a hefty dose of analgesics to mitigate the pain from a naked kneebar?!   The only solution is guidebooks with a multidimensional grade calculation surface to ascertain your grade based on degree of equipage, expertise in knee usage, and sensory nervous system function in the lower body.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 21, 2020, 10:22:44 pm
I found the crux kneebar on Trigger Cut and did it first in a pair of jeans. Then I glued a bit of rubber to my jeans, then a neoprene knee support. Then the 5.10 pad came out and changed the game and it’s 7b+ now cos you can kneebar the other moves too.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 21, 2020, 10:56:15 pm
Sad times. I have visions of you cracking one day and going mad with a stihl saw chopping all the kneebar placements off.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: 36chambers on October 21, 2020, 11:33:53 pm
I found the crux kneebar on Trigger Cut and did it first in a pair of jeans. Then I glued a bit of rubber to my jeans, then a neoprene knee support. Then the 5.10 pad came out and changed the game and it’s 7b+ now cos you can kneebar the other moves too.

So it was you who introduced the first knee bar to the cave! The Parisella's knee bar story arc is phenomenal ;D
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: teestub on October 22, 2020, 06:28:18 am

So it was you who introduced the first knee bar to the cave! The Parisella's knee bar story arc is phenomenal ;D

It deserves an opera or at least the Shakespeare treatment! Doylo makes a Faustian pact with some rubber...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 22, 2020, 06:40:50 am
I found the crux kneebar on Trigger Cut and did it first in a pair of jeans. Then I glued a bit of rubber to my jeans, then a neoprene knee support. Then the 5.10 pad came out and changed the game and it’s 7b+ now cos you can kneebar the other moves too.

So it was you who introduced the first knee bar to the cave! The Parisella's knee bar story arc is phenomenal ;D

Possibly, it was still hard in jeans tho. A long way from Barrows getting a no hands rest in the middle of Directors  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: remus on October 22, 2020, 08:33:11 am

Possibly, it was still hard in jeans tho. A long way from Barrows getting a no hands rest in the middle of Directors  :lol:

That's how it always starts "Oh it's just a little scum, doesn't really change the grade". Before you know it you're down at the tanning salon getting a full body glue spray down so your gimp suit doesn't slip around when you're slithering along pilgrimage.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 22, 2020, 08:49:02 am
Rubber kneepads were complete gamechangers. I’ve used the towel round knee like most years ago and it’s just a massive difference. Kneebarring is a skill obviously but I think much less so than heel and toe hooks. It’s just more leg size dependent what fits who. Really nails ones like the one on Isla are pretty rare imo.  Oh and since the whole world is giving DG 9b for a sit start route I’m having 8c for my one in Cave  :beer2:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: cheque on October 22, 2020, 09:01:05 am
Oh, for the simple days of homemade kneepads that were deliberately designed to be ineffective. ;)  (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=12440.0)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: User deactivated on October 22, 2020, 09:32:57 am
Rubber kneepads were complete gamechangers. I’ve used the towel round knee like most years ago and it’s just a massive difference. Kneebarring is a skill obviously but I think much less so than heel and toe hooks. It’s just more leg size dependent what fits who. Really nails ones like the one on Isla are pretty rare imo.  Oh and since the whole world is giving DG 9b for a sit start route I’m having 8c for my one in Cave  :beer2:

Might aswell. If it’s good enough for DG then why not. 9a in there next.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 22, 2020, 01:34:29 pm
To be sure it's probably best to aim for 9b, that way when it gets downgraded for using kneepads it will settle in nicely at middle of the range 9a...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 22, 2020, 03:07:17 pm
Is it really a 9b route with a sit start, and 9a+ route without? The climbing world's lost its marbles.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: jwi on October 22, 2020, 06:04:30 pm
Is it really a 9b route with a sit start, and 9a+ route without? The climbing world's lost its marbles.

There is a 35 m long, gently overhanging route in Bürs, Austria that is 8c+ if you sitstart in a small cave at the foot of the route. The route is called "Nobody is perfect", and had the project name "sombody is perfect". It changed name when the first ascent got stolen by someone who took umbrage with the drilled holds and filled them with sika. An action that apparently lead to fisticuffs at the base of the route. (Experts on the sport climbing history of the Central Eastern Alps can correct me if I misunderstood some part of the saga...)

So a fist-fight about the sitstart in a grotty cave below a route with filled-in pockets. The climbing world never had marbles to start with....
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on October 22, 2020, 09:20:27 pm
ldets face it, as a past time, it's pretty stupid to start with.

Stupid, but gloriously so.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fiend on October 22, 2020, 09:59:06 pm
Nice ancedote jwi  :)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 23, 2020, 11:27:43 am
Kneepads on Grooved Arete are purely for comfort. I climbed it circa 2005 with a doubled up scarf tied round my knee. It would have been no harder without the scarf, just a lot more painful. Go down your proposed route and what do you give masocist padless ascents using a naked kneebar (other than a gold medal for stupidity)? Or is the grade for not using the kneebar regardless of padding? In which case, how much do I get for a one footed, or no thumbs ascent?

And what about ascents with no knee pad but a hefty dose of analgesics to mitigate the pain from a naked kneebar?!   The only solution is guidebooks with a multidimensional grade calculation surface to ascertain your grade based on degree of equipage, expertise in knee usage, and sensory nervous system function in the lower body.

Missing the point, sorry.

I was just saying that the grade is akin to "the going rate".

Like everything, when people have invested a great deal of time and effort in something, whether it's training, your house, savings .. whatever, there's just a resistance to having things devalued; you want more for your efforts, not less.

I wasn't proposing some sort of detailed, sliding scale of grades for differing styles/tactics.

Reflecting on BJ's comments, if we were talking about "scarfs tied around knees", the difference would be marginal, but we're not.

Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 23, 2020, 12:07:19 pm
I wasn't responding to your whole post, just your stated preference for GA to be graded for ascent without a kneepad. Which I think I demonstrated is not really workable.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 23, 2020, 02:34:40 pm
I wasn't responding to your whole post, just your stated preference for GA to be graded for ascent without a kneepad. Which I think I demonstrated is not really workable.

Thanks for clarifying your post Bonjoy, but I wasn't saying that:

"At a personal level, would anyone be too bothered? i.e. trying Grooved Arete at Kilnsey, just try it without KPs as a personal challenge. If the route's graded for the easiest way (though I'd prefer it if it wasn't for pads), then you'd just be aware that what you're doing is just a bit harder."

Saying I'd prefer it if it wasn't graded for pads (the result), is not the same as saying I'd prefer if it was graded for "an ascent without pads".

I'm saying that it would be a shame if it was graded for an ascent with pads.. but you could just climb it without .. or with a scarf! .. knowing it's probably harder that way.

I think we're in agreement about what would be unworkable in this instance, but on other routes (Hubble?) having no pad, might be a workable distinction.

This is very much like borderline line calls in tennis. There are situations where the ball is clearly one side of the line, in, out, or on the line, but there are always cases where it's hard to tell. Undecided. Just because there are black/white cases, doesn't mean the case IS black/white.

Oh my Gödel.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 23, 2020, 02:39:56 pm
Saying I'd prefer it if it wasn't graded for pads (the result), is not the same as saying I'd prefer if it was graded for "an ascent without pads".
You'll have to elaborate on this, because I'm struggling to see the distinction, especially in a world where grades apply to routes, and not to ascents
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 23, 2020, 02:53:26 pm

This is very much like borderline line calls in tennis. There are situations where the ball is clearly one side of the line, in, out, or on the line, but there are always cases where it's hard to tell. Undecided. Just because there are black/white cases, doesn't mean the case IS black/white.


Off topic, but actually it is black and white in the modern game with hawkeye. The ball is either in or out, there isn't a middle ground to argue over; one of the reasons we don't see McEnroe style meltdowns as much anymore because that tension has been diffused.

Back on topic, as Barrows says grades apply to routes. As you say, a sliding scale of granulated difficulty depending on the thickness of material used on ones knee is not going to happen as its hugely impractical. What will likely happen is grades will change where required as using a kneepad becomes standard. This might affect the Hubble that lives in your mind, as Stu eloquently said, but practically speaking its the only solution, and also the logical one. Ones personal opinion on it is sort of irrelevant when everyone else thinks the opposite.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 23, 2020, 06:54:18 pm
Sounds like we need a quick whipround to get Hawkeye set up at the tor and in the cave. Stop the chances of dodgy dealings, and a McEnroe meltdown happening.

Speaking of which, I haven't seen a clip of someone doing a chalkbag boot for ages...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on October 23, 2020, 07:00:53 pm
There’s a funny video somewhere of Dobbin deconstructing a chalk bag found at the tor... (your post Rob reminded me of that). I was sure it was on Sharks YouTube - and when there I found this gem again.

https://youtu.be/9Hk7Nym77W4

So it’s completely off topic - sorry 😂
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 23, 2020, 07:10:52 pm
Need Hawkeye very closely watching that 3rd bolt...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 23, 2020, 10:12:13 pm
Saying I'd prefer it if it wasn't graded for pads (the result), is not the same as saying I'd prefer if it was graded for "an ascent without pads".
You'll have to elaborate on this, because I'm struggling to see the distinction, especially in a world where grades apply to routes, and not to ascents

I think that's the point. We think that grades apply to routes far more than they really do.

We tend to think the route is far more fixed than it really is. The style of ascent is more like the current fashionable interpretation. A bit like playing difficult pieces of music, which are far more interpretation than literal.

We're saying that a route's current "weighting"/value is such and such.. Sometimes, where the distinction is very clear, then yes, give both grades.

I was simply saying that I'd prefer it if routes didn't get given "current easiest grade" with a knee pad.

Regarding Hawkeye/Black/White etc, that's still the result. No technology can measure things in black/white terms. There'll be some way of dealing with results that lie indeterminate - within the constraints of errors. So in cricket for instance, you have Umpire's Call.

I bet there are lots of ascents on longer steep sport, where there's a bit of undeclared tension. Harder to determine than a "dab".

Where there is a clear distinction between say pads/no pads, then we're really talking about different routes/styles of ascent.

Whatever happened to dodgy McEnroe style sweatbands by the way?

Love the vid of course.

(Nice article here about the accuracy of prediction of Hawkeye:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/sifting-the-evidence/2013/jul/08/hawk-eye-wimbledon   )
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 23, 2020, 10:28:23 pm
Grades aren't there to capture how hard a climb used to be. They are a guide/reference for how hard a climb is at present. This includes the current set of holds , the best available sequence, and equipment (within the accepted rules of the game). They're barely adequate at this their core function. They're downright shit at achieving all the others things people try to get them to do.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: webbo on October 23, 2020, 10:32:55 pm
 :clap2:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 23, 2020, 11:13:03 pm
Grades aren't there to capture how hard a climb used to be. They are a guide/reference for how hard a climb is at present. This includes the current set of holds , the best available sequence, and equipment (within the accepted rules of the game). They're barely adequate at this their core function. They're downright shit at achieving all the others things people try to get them to do.

You think of the climb as a fixed, thing in itself, I don't.

I just don't see Hubble with a pad, as the same route, as Hubble without.

That's the debate here, in many ways, isn't it? Do we start to make distinctions, where a route is clearly significantly changed in grade/difficulty?

Webbo, clap away if you like, but no-one is trying to say that all the weird and wonderful variations should be graded for.

As a point of discussion, what about stuffing extra clothing underneath the pad, if your shin isn't long enough? What if it's a couple of mm but makes all the difference? 10mm? Is that still OK?

I'm asking the question, not because they should all have clear-cut answers, but because some things just have to get talked about like this and decided/reviewed.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: 36chambers on October 23, 2020, 11:18:41 pm
Assuming, for a moment, that Hubble was irrefutably 9a before the knee bar was found and is now 8c+.

If I went and climbed it with the original beta I'd certainly write in my diary that night "today I climbed 9a #biggradesforbadbeta". And it wouldn't matter what anyone else may think as they wouldn't be reading my diary anyway :)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 23, 2020, 11:30:50 pm
Grades aren't there to capture how hard a climb used to be. They are a guide/reference for how hard a climb is at present. This includes the current set of holds , the best available sequence, and equipment (within the accepted rules of the game). They're barely adequate at this their core function. They're downright shit at achieving all the others things people try to get them to do.

You think of the climb as a fixed, thing in itself, I don't.

I just don't see Hubble with a pad, as the same route, as Hubble without.

That's the debate here, in many ways, isn't it? Do we start to make distinctions, where a route is clearly significantly changed in grade/difficulty?

I just referenced beta, equipment  and changing holds in my description of grade function. I.e. all the reasons climbs aren't fixed!

Of course Hubble is a different route using knee pads. But 'the grade' is for what it is, not what it was.

Yes, we make distinctions. In how we discuss, describe, and imagine the climb as it was. But 'the grade' it gets, is for now. The grade is not there to capture the history of the route, we have literature, our minds and our imagination for that.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 23, 2020, 11:45:07 pm
Bonjoy, thanks for clarifying that.

I don't agree with you however that "now" makes the alternative method defunct. It's decided on other things.

Personally, I prefer to think of Hubble without as being just as valid now, as climbed with a pad.

I think the discussion is about those situations where both can be considered valid, but different ways, "now".

I was trying to think of an analogy.
You know the Beta on Mecca, where you reach out left from the pocket, top of groove, instead of going to the sloper. Still thought of as the same route.
What if you could span out left slightly lower, and folk found it easier? That's the way many people would do it, but it might end up being thought of as a different route. The original method would still be valid now, especially if the new way was given 8b and not b+.

Sorry, I just don't think the question of what a route "IS" is as easy to define as you think.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 24, 2020, 12:07:28 am
There are plenty of scenarios where some different beta, or variation in line stretch the boundary of what a route is. On these marginal cases there isn't always a clear answer. One man's alternative beta is another man's separate route. Bouldering has much more latitude for designating minor differences as separate entities.
However, especially on routes, using or not using accepted equipment does not qualify something as a separate entity.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: kingholmesy on October 24, 2020, 12:59:49 am
Oh, for the simple days of homemade kneepads that were deliberately designed to be ineffective. ;)  (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=12440.0)

Fuck me, feels like yesterday that thread.

Are we really at 9 pages worth of talking about knee pads and grades??
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on October 24, 2020, 09:53:50 am
Hi DT,

I'm still not sure I understand what
Saying I'd prefer it if it wasn't graded for pads (the result), is not the same as saying I'd prefer if it was graded for "an ascent without pads".
really means. Or how "I'd prefer it if routes didn't get given "current easiest grade" with a knee pad." is different from
your stated preference for GA to be graded for ascent without a kneepad
which you said was a mischaracterisation of your position. I'm sure this makes sense in your head, but I don't get it.


We think that grades apply to routes far more than they really do.
I'm very much with Bonjoy on thinking that grades should apply to routes, not ascents. Otherwise... Brad Pit = 7B+ in good conditions, 7C if above 15C and humidity >80%, 7C+ if >35C and huidity >90%, 8A if you had too much beer the night before and are stressed at work, add +2 grades for every week of your life where you worked a >50hr week or to account for eating too much ice cream on 3rd November 1994. Don't get grades confused with how impressive an ascent is. It would be FAR more impressive for a blind man with no arms to climb E2 than for me to climb 9a, but grades are not a useful way to measure "impressiveness", they're a (mediocre) way of comparing the difficulty of climbing one piece of rock to another, for a roughly average climber, and they don't even do well at that.

You think of the climb as a fixed, thing in itself, I don't.
Actually I see it as the exact opposite of this - you want to preserve each sequence, each variation, each ascent as a route in its own right. I (and most others) view a route as something that can change - holds break, holds get bigger, new methods get found etc.. sometimes these are "off route" (walking round the back will never count as doing Parthian Shot), other times we just accept that a new easier method got found. And yes, sometimes it's borderline (e.g. a jug slightly off to the side of a route - how far away is "legit"? community consensus decides usually*).


But anyway, we're back to where we were 15 years ago - you can define an eliminate without knees (or without pads - you'll have to be specific) if you want to, you can define 2 different versions of Mecca if you want to, you can say that you can only use the exact same beta as the FA if you want to, but most rock climbers enjoy climbing things in a non-eliminate way because working out beta is part of the fun of rock climbing, so most people will climb the non-eliminate version. I've always said I'm happy to rename everything in the cave e.g. Director's Cut - 8B, eliminate, no stars.  Direct-a-slut - 8A+, non elim, three stars. I'm sure we can also have Hubble - 9a, Too Rubbered For Ben Moon - 8c+/9a (R knee only), Too Scrunched for Lanky Fuckers With Long Shins - 8c+/9a (L knee only), What The Fuck Am I Doing With My Life - 8c+/9a (uses LH pinky on 3rd hold unlike the FA). God help the guidebook writter. Or, people who want to do it the historic way just do that for fun, but we stick with the vaguely workable way of having one name and grade applied to ways up bits of rock, because anything else is unmanageable (or, at a push, 2 grades - 1 with and 1 without pads, like the Parisella's guide, but I think this will be niche on boulders and won't happen on routes - the ship has sailed in most areas)

*example - Battle Cat in Frankenjura was originally done with a quite strict/eliminate line. It has also been done using a jug out left and a no-hand in a crack out right at 2 different point. Now the way that most people climbs it uses the jug (it feels contrived not to use it, given how the holds work) but not the other rest (it feels contrived to use it, and like you're traversing off route to get to it).
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 24, 2020, 01:26:25 pm
Barrows, that's a very long post to take and use my points out of context.

You're making some remarkable - and incorrect - presumptions about what I think.

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.


Your position has always been that climbing without pads/knee bars is eliminate. Is that a reasonable assumption on my part? Not everyone sees it that way.

I use knee bars, but only occasionally, because I don't wear knee pads.

No one, and certainly not me, is suggesting giving a different grade for each and every variation.

However, where they are very clear, and quite workable, then why not?

Also, listing Hubble without pad would seem important from a historical perspective. It's more representative.

We live in, and share, a descriptive world. Allowing and using different descriptions of the same "thing" isn't a very difficult thing to accommodate. This is no different to giving certain problems a bouldering grade for mats, and the traditional E-grade.

You don't have to give a grade for wearing EBs, summer sun, no cams, only 1 mat, 10 mats etc to make it workable.

My earlier points are very simply that I'd prefer it if routes weren't getting re-graded for "new easier way" with pads, because it's not a style I want to adopt. I'm sure there are other people that feel the same. I'm sure there'll be examples of where that'll happen. That's a personal preference about climbing style, it's not a position on how routes should be graded.

Again, same with bouldering mats. I'd prefer it if routes weren't getting a re-grade as boulders above mats - in other words why they're being re-graded - because I'd generally prefer to retain the earlier style. There are plenty of problems however, that I would prefer the bouldering grade for.

This comes back to my other point, that the route is not some "thing in itself", but an encounter which we describe in lots of different ways. Deciding which/what descriptions to use is why we discuss things.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 24, 2020, 02:04:18 pm

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.


To clarify, that is the distinction I'm trying to make.

However, "routes" are graded for what constitutes an ascent, and by consensus, we use a very small selection of all the descriptions available.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 24, 2020, 02:21:16 pm

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.


I don't think you've made a convincing case for this at all.
Stand at the bottom of Master's Edge and tell me it doesn't really exist in a fixed thing-in-itself sense. Of course it does, unless you're going so far down the rabbit hole that literally nothing exists as a thing in itself. It exists as a piece of rock, it exists as a concept of getting from A to B within the rules of a game. The confluence of these two things consitutes 'the route' and is every bit as tangible and well defined a thing as any human artifact.
That is fundamental to the appeal of climbing. All our differing personal experiences of a climb are anchored to the essential conceptual solidity of the climb itself. This is why strong inescapable lines are more satisfying.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 24, 2020, 02:29:46 pm
I’m too stupid to understand the recent posts.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 24, 2020, 02:43:40 pm
I’m too stupid to understand the recent posts.

I've tried my best but it's a bit metaphysical for me. Dave is clearly sincere in his views but they are incredibly niche and not shared by anyone else as far as I can see.

That said its interesting discussing it.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: gme on October 24, 2020, 03:50:57 pm
I’m too stupid to understand the recent posts.

Join the club.

Can someone just let me know when it’s agreed that Hubble should be back down to 8c+ as it’s now easier.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Falling Down on October 24, 2020, 04:16:04 pm
Thomas, D. (2020) "Hubble, a thing in itself?: A phenomenological hermeneutic perspective on contemporary hard rock climbing". London Climber No. 2, Yossarian Publications, Shoreditch.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 24, 2020, 04:49:25 pm
I’m too stupid to understand the recent posts.

Join the club.

Can someone just let me know when it’s agreed that Hubble should be back down to 8c+ as it’s now easier.

Only a tiny weenie bit easier apparently  ;)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 24, 2020, 04:50:28 pm
I think a Dave Thomas / Johnny Dawes podcast would be a good listen .
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 24, 2020, 04:52:31 pm
I think a Dave Thomas / Johnny Dawes podcast would be a good listen .

As long as they don’t use the word ‘segue’. Fuckin hate that word .
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 24, 2020, 04:57:18 pm
Wouldn't a Buddhist say you can never climb the same route twice? I think Dave's on about that sort of route.

Satisfyingly for Bonjoy, Master's would definitely create the Buddhist sound of one hand slapping.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fiend on October 24, 2020, 05:30:31 pm

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.


He's right about this though. The route is more than the line up the rock. It has history, it has stories, it has character, it has quality of movement (which is not just where the holds are, but the fact that us humans are climbing it), it has a line of chalked holds, it has a relationship to other routes and other standards, it has a reputation, an emotional impact.

Director's Cut (or whatever the rubble in the cave that barrows halved the grade of is) with a bunch of kneebars is the same route, but it's not the same route - otherwise we wouldn't have Doylo sobbing into his pumpkin spiced latte. Hubble with a kneebar is the same lump of rock, but it's not the same route as dreadlocked Ben gurning up a line of English 7b underclings.

Semantics, abusing the definition of the term "route", nebulous meanings and whatever, DT90 still has a good point that there's a lot more to the things we climb than the, errr, things we climb.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on October 24, 2020, 05:33:24 pm
It’s not DC I was sobbing about , that’s basically a route anyway. It was the murder of the 4 move power testpiece  ;D
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 24, 2020, 06:30:02 pm
Anyways, enough about kneepads- where can I get one of those high powered electric fans???

Could do with a smallish one that I can velcro onto the side of my leg. Would like it to be able to blow away the chalk dust so less likely to fall out of all of those lovely hands off rests...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bonjoy on October 24, 2020, 06:32:02 pm

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.


He's right about this though. The route is more than the line up the rock. It has history, it has stories, it has character, it has quality of movement (which is not just where the holds are, but the fact that us humans are climbing it), it has a line of chalked holds, it has a relationship to other routes and other standards, it has a reputation, an emotional impact.

Director's Cut (or whatever the rubble in the cave that barrows halved the grade of is) with a bunch of kneebars is the same route, but it's not the same route - otherwise we wouldn't have Doylo sobbing into his pumpkin spiced latte. Hubble with a kneebar is the same lump of rock, but it's not the same route as dreadlocked Ben gurning up a line of English 7b underclings.

Semantics, abusing the definition of the term "route", nebulous meanings and whatever, DT90 still has a good point that there's a lot more to the things we climb than the, errr, things we climb.
Yes but nobody is disagreeing with any of that, just that it has anything much to do with the grade. And the idea that it means the route isn't a clearly definable thing.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 24, 2020, 07:11:08 pm
For God's sake, everyone. Can't you see the man's grieving? Grieving for a time when Ben was King of the Tor, the nights in the Broady were long, and Hubble was a hard route.
Give him a chance to mourn in peace.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on October 24, 2020, 09:48:28 pm
Wouldn't a Buddhist say you can never climb the same route twice? I think Dave's on about that sort of route.

Satisfyingly for Bonjoy, Master's would definitely create the Buddhist sound of one hand slapping.

Or the sound of one knee cracking..

If Ondra's bouldering on his own in the forest and falls, does he make a sound....
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on October 24, 2020, 09:51:50 pm
Quote from: Will Hunt link=topic=30919.msg619606#msg619606
and Hubble was a hard route

So fucking easy that the best are strapping on kneepads 30 years on
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: teestub on October 24, 2020, 09:59:54 pm
Obviously no ethical thought leaders have repeated it recently. Hang on wait did Megos use a pad, or is he in fact an ethical thought leader?!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on October 24, 2020, 10:14:12 pm
Quote from: teestub link=topic=30919.msg619611#msg619611
did Megos use a pad, or is he in fact an ethical thought leader?!

I believe he is
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 24, 2020, 10:50:03 pm
Slippery slope: starts off with kneepads, won't be long before we're seeing exoskeletons at the Tor...

https://youtu.be/XFgFYlsKbY8
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 24, 2020, 11:51:21 pm
Quote from: Will Hunt link=topic=30919.msg619606#msg619606
and Hubble was a hard route

So fucking easy that the best are strapping on kneepads 30 years on

Hubble wouldn't even get a bloke a mention in the UKB "who's climbed a hard thing recently" thread. If it's a 9 then it just barely scrapes in. It's only hard in a regional, local sense.

Your post also miss the point that using a kneepad on Hubble doesn't mean that you couldn't do it without a kneepad.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on October 25, 2020, 12:00:20 am
Your post also miss the point that using a kneepad on Hubble doesn't mean that you couldn't do it without a kneepad.

 :o is such a thing possible? Must be hard doing it that way
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on October 25, 2020, 12:03:42 am
I'm sorry for your loss.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 25, 2020, 01:06:37 am
I'm not being quite as mystical as people think  ;)

The rock doesn't define the route, although the route climbs an approximate area of rock.

The route exists in how we talk and think about it. What it "means".

There's a photo of Ron climbing Revelations, but his method at the start comes in from the left, not via the pocket/pinch.

I think most people have a notion of what Revelations means, and Ron isn't climbing that route.

In my view, same with Hubble with a pad. Just consider the different ways, different routes. In this instance, I don't see much of a problem.

However, I think something of the great significance of Ben's ascent of Hubble would get lost, if we just grade it for the way that more people are trying it currently.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 25, 2020, 02:14:15 am

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.


I don't think you've made a convincing case for this at all.
Stand at the bottom of Master's Edge and tell me it doesn't really exist in a fixed thing-in-itself sense. Of course it does, unless you're going so far down the rabbit hole that literally nothing exists as a thing in itself. It exists as a piece of rock, it exists as a concept of getting from A to B within the rules of a game. The confluence of these two things consitutes 'the route' and is every bit as tangible and well defined a thing as any human artifact.
That is fundamental to the appeal of climbing. All our differing personal experiences of a climb are anchored to the essential conceptual solidity of the climb itself. This is why strong inescapable lines are more satisfying.

Thanks for bearing with me Bonjoy.

I'd suggest that what you refer to as "conceptual solidity" is much more an act of faith, than it is "real".

Despite really strong associations, what we see is a whole set of meanings. The "route" is contingent on what we've learned to see.

Think of "the line" of Master's Edge, as a sign. When you look at it, you do so with all the unconscious meanings and interpretations you've learned to associate with it, and that is what often feels "solid" and "real".

The route is contingent and not fixed. What it is contingent upon, is open to debate.

We all know of great lines - I'm thinking Cock o' the Rock at Stanage - opposite the photo of you on Central Buttress Direct, in the guide:

"A lovely piece of rock, but it's lack of proper starting holds means that the experience doesn't quite live up to the feature, and the grade will vary greatly depending on the climber's height."

I think we're in agreement in lots of ways, except in that the route exists as an interpretation.

Here's a young lad's interpretation of Master's Edge:  ;D

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50526575187_087f15dfa1_n.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50526412906_dc557c2217_n.jpg)

Dave Pegg looking on.

.. Where do you draw the line? ;)

Edit:
Just thinking of The Groove at Cratcliffe - which disappointingly, isn't the groove at Cratcliffe ;)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 25, 2020, 02:52:13 am
Great link, for anyone that's interested:

https://elanguageworld.com/perks-of-being-multilingual/
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 25, 2020, 06:25:29 am
Ace photos.

Ben needs to sort himself some language lessons, get back on the Hubble wearing glasses and a kneepad and put this grade thing to bed once and for all...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Moo on October 25, 2020, 11:02:54 am
Similar tangent then dave, Undercooke, at St bees was originally climbed with a horrendously powerful undercut sequence by john cooke and given something around 7c+. Along comes Nige who decides to utilise the back of his foot instead of the front and the grade drops to around 7a.

Should Undercooke remain at 7c+ as it'd be a shame not to take in to account the effort put in by the first ascentionist or should the new more logical sequence be accepted ?

I think you're dragging the argument in the realms of the metaphysical because in some way you know it's fundamentally flawed as what you feel about the route should have no impact on its grade. The grade is purely reflective of the effort/difficulty found in climbing it.

I agree totally that routes grow to be more than their physical standing as the history develops but that will only be on a personal level.




Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 26, 2020, 11:35:15 pm

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.


He's right about this though. The route is more than the line up the rock. It has history, it has stories, it has character, it has quality of movement (which is not just where the holds are, but the fact that us humans are climbing it), it has a line of chalked holds, it has a relationship to other routes and other standards, it has a reputation, an emotional impact.

Director's Cut (or whatever the rubble in the cave that barrows halved the grade of is) with a bunch of kneebars is the same route, but it's not the same route - otherwise we wouldn't have Doylo sobbing into his pumpkin spiced latte. Hubble with a kneebar is the same lump of rock, but it's not the same route as dreadlocked Ben gurning up a line of English 7b underclings.

Semantics, abusing the definition of the term "route", nebulous meanings and whatever, DT90 still has a good point that there's a lot more to the things we climb than the, errr, things we climb.

Nice post. Made me think that "What is a climb?" would be a good thread in its own right.

However, far from being a matter of semantics, that is the issue really - the idea that we merely apply words that point to some other fixed thing.

We don't, and I think that understanding this will help us see that we're not really fighting over what to call the same thing.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 26, 2020, 11:47:28 pm
Replying to Moo, this isn't dragging the argument into the realm of the metaphysical, but perhaps away from some of the mistakes we make about how we see the world around us.

This isn't an argument over "names".

Ref your example/Undercooke it would be nice to see a mention of the change in Beta/grade, but in cases like this, it's not unusual for the grade to reflect some of the difficulty in finding the right Beta.

Or just give a hint to the Beta, and the 7A grade. That's quite a common solution.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Nibile on October 27, 2020, 08:30:34 am
Ace photos.
Nope. I reckon they're Vectors.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on October 27, 2020, 09:14:57 am

Ref your example/Undercooke it would be nice to see a mention of the change in Beta/grade, but in cases like this, it's not unusual for the grade to reflect some of the difficulty in finding the right Beta.

Or just give a hint to the Beta, and the 7A grade. That's quite a common solution.

Or mention the harder version as an eliminate.

As someone said (Will?) no new grades for bad beta..
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on October 27, 2020, 01:35:06 pm
Definitely need the kneepads this week.

Mop up the damp from all of the wet undercuts...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: monkoffunk on October 27, 2020, 05:35:40 pm
Replying to Moo, this isn't dragging the argument into the realm of the metaphysical, but perhaps away from some of the mistakes we make about how we see the world around us.

This isn't an argument over "names".

Ref your example/Undercooke it would be nice to see a mention of the change in Beta/grade, but in cases like this, it's not unusual for the grade to reflect some of the difficulty in finding the right Beta.

Or just give a hint to the Beta, and the 7A grade. That's quite a common solution.

I seem to recall some 8a in the DWS guidebook that was graded 8c by Chris sharma. I remember reading it and thinking, wow I wonder how many holds he missed/what that beta must have been like. Nice to have a think about the process of creating/realising/materialising/whatever the route, and then know where it fits compared to what I know I can climb, if I‘m thinking about giving it a go.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: jwi on October 29, 2020, 08:59:09 pm
Adam Ondra found a knee bar on Perfecto Mundo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGzOyOV6ZSg
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Wood FT on October 29, 2020, 10:59:18 pm
Adam Ondra found a knee bar on Perfecto Mundo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGzOyOV6ZSg

This is like Eder findings kneebars all over Yorkshire - admirable but essentially making a new crux trying to use them
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Hamfunk on November 09, 2020, 02:32:31 pm
Full uncut knee scum action for the thread that just keeps giving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_r7yp_itLM
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: spidermonkey09 on November 09, 2020, 02:48:10 pm
Full uncut knee scum action for the thread that just keeps giving

That was actually quite good. I have *not* enjoyed other films on that channel but he gets much more engagement out of Ben Moon in that than in a lot of other footage e.g. that Sean McColl Mammut one. Particularly liked the Megos swipe! Obviously neglects to ask Ben the most important question though; is Buster going to be dropped from the Moon team for using a pad?  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: dunnyg on November 09, 2020, 03:17:33 pm
Agree, really enjoyed that! It being ming outside probably helps too.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on November 09, 2020, 03:24:55 pm
Its good. Ben looks especially uncomfortable being interviewed though!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on November 09, 2020, 04:45:41 pm
Thought we were on No Neebar November???
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: JohnM on November 09, 2020, 06:27:40 pm
Maybe this was mention before but, out of interest, who was the first person who suggested the upgrade of Hubble to 9a?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Wood FT on November 09, 2020, 07:23:34 pm
I thought it was Adam Ondra.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on November 09, 2020, 07:52:35 pm
fucking punter, what does he know about hard climbing, bet he's never even been to minus ten.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on November 09, 2020, 10:45:01 pm
Re the BMC guide Zippy suggested 9a and it sounded fair so I changed the text and no one on the email chain contested it except Grimer  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: grimer on November 09, 2020, 10:57:24 pm
That might be because I was the only one who had actually been on Hubble.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Duncan campbell on November 10, 2020, 06:30:42 am
8c+ you with a rack on is it??  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: bigironhorse on November 14, 2020, 05:26:03 pm
https://youtu.be/OwpR5mB-HXw?t=2096

Quote
Climbing without a kneebar, is climbing without dignity

 :lol:
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: jwi on November 14, 2020, 06:31:47 pm
My new motto!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on November 14, 2020, 07:57:43 pm
So good! I want that on a t-shirt
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Wood FT on November 14, 2020, 08:05:59 pm
So good! I want that on a t-shirt

When’s your birthday?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on November 14, 2020, 08:48:32 pm
Agreed, that's my number one Xmas present 😀
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: rjtrials on November 15, 2020, 12:00:02 pm
I'll definitely buy a couple!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tc on November 15, 2020, 07:27:50 pm
Great link, for anyone that's interested:

https://elanguageworld.com/perks-of-being-multilingual/
Ich stimme Dir vollkommen zu. Tu as tout à fait raison.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: bigironhorse on November 29, 2020, 10:20:27 am
Next evolution of kneebarring: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/k0zhgm/hannes_puman_kneebaring_off_his_other_leg_in_the/
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: AMorris on November 29, 2020, 06:22:16 pm
Next evolution of kneebarring: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/k0zhgm/hannes_puman_kneebaring_off_his_other_leg_in_the/

every day we stray further from God's Light.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on November 29, 2020, 06:28:35 pm
That’s nearly as bad as crack climbing shenanigans 😀
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on December 23, 2020, 04:05:13 pm
Quote from: teestub link=topic=30919.msg619611#msg619611
did Megos use a pad, or is he in fact an ethical thought leader?!

I believe he is

My love for Megos grows  :wub:

Quote from: Alex Megos link==https://www.instagram.com/p/CJJHEj5hsoP/
After doing Dreamtime, I set my sights on the famous @dave_graham_ test piece "The Story of Two Worlds" on the other side of the boulder. There are various videos online from lots of different climbers, all theoretically climbing the same boulder and claiming the same grade- 8C. It seems like the climbing community is not differentiating at all and rarely mentioning HOW things are climbed. This issue was recently brought to my attention after the discussion about @yannick_flohe 's "dab" on Dreamtime. Climbing and especially bouldering is all about the HOW. Even more surprising though was the fact that people don't really seem to care too much about the HOW, although it is supposed to be the most important part of climbing/bouldering in some people's eyes.
After watching all those videos of "The Story of two Worlds", I noticed there are huge differences. Some use a kneepad, although the FA was done without. Most sit down to start, some don't. One climber (@dai_koyamada) started lower than all the others and didn't use a kneepad. And in the end they all climbed the same 8C? That thought seems very alienating to me.
Yes, climbing is a funny sport and it's not only about getting to the top. It's HOW you get to the top. I would wish for more awareness within the climbing community, that there are differences in ethics, styles and grades. We, as climbers, should be more open about it and communicate HOW we have done certain climbs. Ticking a grade shouldn't be the most important part of climbing. Climbing is so much more than that.
There are differences in HOW things get climbed and we should acknowledge those.
Glad I managed an ascent of "The Story of two Worlds" on my last day. I valued climbing it without a kneepad and I did (barely). I'd say 8C seems about right.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: petejh on December 23, 2020, 04:13:37 pm
This is him preparing the terrain for for Ondra's eventual padded ascent of Perfecto Mundo... #rubberbeef
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on December 23, 2020, 04:41:30 pm
Quote from: Alex Megos link==https://www.instagram.com/p/CJJHEj5hsoP/
One climber (@dai_koyamada) started lower than all the others and didn't use a kneepad. And in the end they all climbed the same 8C?

Well technically Dai did TSOTW low start, so explicitly not the same 8C, but don't let factual accuracy get in the way of things
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 23, 2020, 06:03:02 pm
Quote from: teestub link=topic=30919.msg619611#msg619611
did Megos use a pad, or is he in fact an ethical thought leader?!

I believe he is

My love for Megos grows  :wub:

Quote from: Alex Megos link==https://www.instagram.com/p/CJJHEj5hsoP/
After doing Dreamtime, I set my sights on the famous @dave_graham_ test piece "The Story of Two Worlds" on the other side of the boulder. There are various videos online from lots of different climbers, all theoretically climbing the same boulder and claiming the same grade- 8C. It seems like the climbing community is not differentiating at all and rarely mentioning HOW things are climbed. This issue was recently brought to my attention after the discussion about @yannick_flohe 's "dab" on Dreamtime. Climbing and especially bouldering is all about the HOW. Even more surprising though was the fact that people don't really seem to care too much about the HOW, although it is supposed to be the most important part of climbing/bouldering in some people's eyes.
After watching all those videos of "The Story of two Worlds", I noticed there are huge differences. Some use a kneepad, although the FA was done without. Most sit down to start, some don't. One climber (@dai_koyamada) started lower than all the others and didn't use a kneepad. And in the end they all climbed the same 8C? That thought seems very alienating to me.
Yes, climbing is a funny sport and it's not only about getting to the top. It's HOW you get to the top. I would wish for more awareness within the climbing community, that there are differences in ethics, styles and grades. We, as climbers, should be more open about it and communicate HOW we have done certain climbs. Ticking a grade shouldn't be the most important part of climbing. Climbing is so much more than that.
There are differences in HOW things get climbed and we should acknowledge those.
Glad I managed an ascent of "The Story of two Worlds" on my last day. I valued climbing it without a kneepad and I did (barely). I'd say 8C seems about right.

I think that's worth a Wad. What's his avatar/profile? Doesn't seem to post here much. Is he worthy?

 ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 23, 2020, 06:07:46 pm
Quote from: Alex Megos link==https://www.instagram.com/p/CJJHEj5hsoP/
One climber (@dai_koyamada) started lower than all the others and didn't use a kneepad. And in the end they all climbed the same 8C?

Well technically Dai did TSOTW low start, so explicitly not the same 8C, but don't let factual accuracy get in the way of things

And please don't use one error, to misrepresent the whole.

I'm sure Mr Megos would welcome your correction, in the spirit of "factual accuracy".
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on December 23, 2020, 06:53:04 pm
This is him preparing the terrain for for Ondra's eventual padded ascent of Perfecto Mundo... #rubberbeef

Defo a dig.

TSOTW is appropriately the arse of Dreamtime.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: teestub on December 23, 2020, 08:00:37 pm
Megos’s post seemed to start by being an attempt to justify his mate dabbing on Dreamtime then moved onto knee beef.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on December 23, 2020, 09:28:02 pm
Megos’s post seemed to start by being an attempt to justify his mate dabbing on Dreamtime then moved onto knee beef.

I was curious about this so looked up the dab in question. I know we like to have a laugh on the Bring Out Your Dabs thread, but surely we haven't sunk so low as to say that this is not a valid ascent?

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CI0_u6joprP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: teestub on December 23, 2020, 09:47:25 pm
but surely we haven't sunk so low as to say that this is not a valid ascent?

How hard are you allowed to kick a tree (or brush a pad) before it invalidates an ascent?!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: AMorris on December 23, 2020, 09:51:52 pm
what an amazing bit of footage that is though, get a really nice look at the holds on it
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Wood FT on December 23, 2020, 10:00:44 pm
Good find, Will. If you read the comments  ‘SwizzyBouldering’ I.e. Martin Keller, goes for the jugular on this chap (Megos’ trip buddy) for touching the tree ( :blink:), even talking about the ‘how’ of bouldering. In light of this, the Megos post is just a retort rather than an ethical line in the sand. I’ll bet a non-alcoholic beverage that Martin was a recent ascentionist of TSOTW...

The Frankenjura is bad for people sniping at each other I heard so Megos will be well practised in these online bun-fights - good for goss.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on December 23, 2020, 10:28:24 pm
but surely we haven't sunk so low as to say that this is not a valid ascent?

How hard are you allowed to kick a tree (or brush a pad) before it invalidates an ascent?!

Not sure exactly where you'd draw the line, but I'd guess that brushing a tree while moving your leg upwards and hanging off the top of a boulder making conversation with your entourage is comfortably far enough away from where that line should be.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: teestub on December 23, 2020, 10:57:39 pm
He wasn’t even on top of the boulder, his foot came off again after that! Once you decide you’re ok with dabs then it’s just a matter of negotiation what’s ok and what isn’t.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 24, 2020, 03:03:59 am
I fess up. I used the tree on Suicide Wall. Thankfully the old one below Indecent isn't there anymore, and the old bent Elder has been removed from Out of my tree.

Are trees "in" these days? Is it possible to use the tree to climb Dreamtime? If you can say "the tree is in", there's no dab. Is it easier?

What about other shrubs? Grass; lichen?

That said, if I'd noticed, I'd be gutted  ;)  :lol: Back around.

(.. trying to think of problems with trees, heathery top-outs etc. I think I'd quite easily differentiate between trees and pads in most cases.)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Bradders on December 24, 2020, 07:39:22 am
I’ll bet a non-alcoholic beverage that Martin was a recent ascentionist of TSOTW...

10 points...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BuePYCBhvHp/?igshid=1sujil5eksonv

After (as always seems the case for him) a decades long battle with it.

If you look through his insta there are quite a few posts from him calling people out for things like inattentive parking, stashing pads in a bad/obvious way, etc., etc. Which I think is rather a good thing to do! Especially as it sounds like the guy who dabbed on Dreamtime is basically a strong indoor climber, who's been outside about 3 times, hasn't a clue about ethics, yet is instantly strong enough to be doing these hard things.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fiend on December 24, 2020, 10:19:01 am
WoodFT, is that a over-caffeinated sugary non-alcoholic beverage??  ;)


Helps to wash down all that tasty beef ofc...
Title: Dab
Post by: Fiend on December 24, 2020, 11:03:46 am
About that dab.... Quite hard to tell as it's a grainy, near pitch dark video that one can't slo-mo down, but...

Can't hear any sound
No change in movement of the leg whatsoever
Even if it was a proper dab, it would have inhibited his movement and made it harder not easier.

I call "bark-scuffing dab so minor that it's fine within the spirit of the law".
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Duma on December 24, 2020, 11:07:30 am
I'd def be happier with that than adding a sit start to a sport route and claiming a higher grade.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on December 24, 2020, 11:10:25 am
Pure poetry from our ethical thought leader  :bow:

Quote from: Alex Megos link==https://www.instagram.com/p/CJJHEj5hsoP/
@gurzi I think a lot (of) the classic routes and boulders have been climbed before the kneepad was really a thing. I think there is a difference between discovering a new beta and using an additional tool. And I know at this point people will always step in and say “but climbing shoes have improved so much over the years, it should be considered a different tool now too”. Yes climbing shoes have improved and footholds are getting so much more polished. So maybe it evens out. I do agree though if new beta is found the climb should be downgraded. (In) my eyes though using a kneepad is a whole different story and hasn’t got anything to do with finding new beta. Its simply playing a different game. And climbing is only a game where we make our own rules. It seems like there is no rule the majority of the community has accepted here.

I would propose : if the FA was done without kneepad you should climb it without kneepad. If you nonetheless use a kneepad you should be honest about it and probably shouldn’t tick the same grade for it. Unless you really feel like even with kneepad it still deserves the grade it was given. Those are my thoughts.       
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on December 24, 2020, 11:16:06 am
So the grade is different unless it feels the same, then it's the same.

Glad that's cleared up.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on December 24, 2020, 11:17:04 am
So the grade is different unless it feels the same, then it's the same.

Glad that's cleared up.

"If the FA was done without kneepad you should climb it without kneepad"
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Duma on December 24, 2020, 11:18:49 am
its a bit ridiculous that a lot of this comment comes after an ascent of a DG problem - given his propensity for kneebarring anything and everything.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on December 24, 2020, 11:22:24 am
I assume this also applies to
- chalk on clean-hand-gang FAs
- anasazis or other shoes with hook heels where these weren't used on the FA (back around Ned)
- cams on routes FAd without cams (either due to them not being invented yet or leaving them in the car accidentally)
- skyhooks on routes FAd without skyhooks
- liquid chalk on routes FAd without liquid chalk
- new ropes on routes FAd on hemp
- any ropes on routes FAd on solo
...?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on December 24, 2020, 11:29:21 am
Those have gained community acceptance (rightly or wrongly). Kneepad usage isn't wholly accepted.

As Megos says:

"It seems like there is no rule the majority of the community has accepted here."
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: A.Greenhorne on December 24, 2020, 11:32:22 am
It seems straight forward, knee pads make things easier therefore give an advantage. Weaker people climb the routes because of this (Mecca, eatswood etc) therefore 2 different grades. If that’s your thing, ‘knee pad ascent’ in your logbook depending on which headmaster is cracking the whip. Otherwise just downgrade the route assuming everyone will use a pad. It would be a relief to never hear about Hubble being the ‘worlds first 8c+ that is 9a’ again.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Duma on December 24, 2020, 11:33:15 am
As Megos says:

"It seems like there is no rule the majority of the community has accepted here."

He may say that, but he's wrong. The majority do accept kneepads on ascents of routes of any age. (whether they reduce the grade or not)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: teestub on December 24, 2020, 11:33:38 am
Those have gained community acceptance (rightly or wrongly). Kneepad usage isn't wholly accepted.

As Megos says:

"It seems like there is no rule the majority of the community has accepted here."

It seems like it’s you and Megos at this point. And for him it probably comes down to not being able to get a pad to stay on his twiglets!
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on December 24, 2020, 11:36:25 am
It’s all a load of waffle when all he really wants to say is Ondra can only have 9b for PM. #shade
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: A.Greenhorne on December 24, 2020, 11:38:14 am
Hang on, was your ascent of eatswood traverse kneepadless shark? If not then you better get back to tick the problem or take the accepted F7A+ for your ascent
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on December 24, 2020, 11:38:48 am
Just want to clarify...
If someone snakes my Kilnsey proj without a pad, do I then have to stop trying it with a pad even though I was trying it first?
Do retroclaims affect the validity of pads?
If Seb says he used a beer towel kneepad am I still allowed that?
Can I wear jeans (or shorts) if lycra was used on the FA?
Will the guides clearly lost which equipment is allowed or not or do I have to guess?

And, as Duma pointed out, what about if the FA would have used a pad but they just missed the knee, as is presumably the case here? Do we have to assign what's allowed based on action or intention? Oh my..
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on December 24, 2020, 11:40:04 am
Those have gained community acceptance (rightly or wrongly). Kneepad usage isn't wholly accepted.

As Megos says:

"It seems like there is no rule the majority of the community has accepted here."

I hereby don't accept cams on routes done before cams. Get your tipex out chaps.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on December 24, 2020, 11:42:24 am
Hang on, was you’re ascent of eatswood traverse kneepadless shark? If not then you better get back to tick the problem or take the accepted F7A+ for your ascent

Accepted way is to do it with a pad but kneepadless would undoubtedly be better style. Funnily enough I had been thinking of going back and trying it that way.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fiend on December 24, 2020, 11:42:59 am
Quote from: Alex Megos link==https://www.instagram.com/p/CJJHEj5hsoP/
If you nonetheless use a kneepad you should be honest about it and probably shouldn’t tick the same grade for it. Unless you really feel like even with kneepad it still deserves the grade it was given.
That's some radical cutting edge intellectual shit there  ;D
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on December 24, 2020, 11:44:28 am
I hereby don't accept cams on routes done before cams. Get your tipex out chaps.

I got a right earful from Joe Brown for using cams on Right Eliminate. I'm sure his shop stocked them but I know where he was coming from now.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on December 24, 2020, 11:50:22 am
I hereby don't accept cams on routes done before cams. Get your tipex out chaps.

I got a right earful from Joe Brown for using cams on Right Eliminate. I'm sure his shop stocked them but I know where he was coming from now.

Is that the one that you removed the chockstone from, despite that being the way it was climbed on the first ascent?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on December 24, 2020, 11:53:23 am
Is that the one that you removed the chockstone from, despite that being the way it was climbed on the first ascent?

One of the things that Joe clarified was that there was no chockstone on the first ascent.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on December 24, 2020, 11:55:50 am
Quote from: Alex Megos link==https://www.instagram.com/p/CJJHEj5hsoP/
If you nonetheless use a kneepad you should be honest about it and probably shouldn’t tick the same grade for it. Unless you really feel like even with kneepad it still deserves the grade it was given.
That's some radical cutting edge intellectual shit there  ;D

What u taking m8? What ya taking ??
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on December 24, 2020, 12:05:34 pm
Is that the one that you removed the chockstone from, despite that being the way it was climbed on the first ascent?

One of the things that Joe clarified was that there was no chockstone on the first ascent.

Did he provide any uncut video to prove it?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on December 24, 2020, 12:17:54 pm
My questions just keep coming.. if I do a new low start or extension finish can I use a pad on the new bits but not the old bits? If a pad touches the rock on the existing bits is that a dab? Questions questions...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: AMorris on December 24, 2020, 12:36:24 pm
"don't use a kneepad if an FA didn't, but if you do only take the grade if it doesn't help"

I love watching people die on this particular hill :popcorn: but he could have made a better point here!

Looking forward to him getting on a Charles Albert problem.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on December 24, 2020, 12:47:34 pm
The only way to have a clean conscience about climbing is to basically not give a shit about anyone else’s “morals” or “ethics” or “what is right” and do what you think is best.

Otherwise we’re all guilty in some way. Chalk, cams, climbing shoes, heels, toehooks, knee pads, antihydral, coaching, training, beta, videos, precleaning, placing gear, bolts, wire brushes, lycra, skyhooks etc etc etc etc etc....

Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Pantontino on December 24, 2020, 12:59:41 pm
Not every technology development is accepted - e.g. heel spurs in mixed climbing made it too easy to rest your way up a route.

It does feel like rubber knee pads are accepted now though. I can't think of many climbers who I hang out with who haven't used one at some point. Mind you, outside of the Cave you don't see them very often in North Wales, at least not at the crags i go to.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on December 24, 2020, 01:31:14 pm
So the grade is different unless it feels the same, then it's the same.

Glad that's cleared up.

"If the FA was done without kneepad you should climb it without kneepad"

Selective quoting is a dangerous game, dear IO. he then goes on to say;

Quote
If you nonetheless use a kneepad you should be honest about it and probably shouldn’t tick the same grade for it. Unless you really feel like even with kneepad it still deserves the grade it was given. Those are my thoughts.       

Which is what I was paraphrasing above.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on December 24, 2020, 01:41:33 pm
This morning I was changing a lightbulb and rather annoyingly one of the wires snapped whilst I was removing.

I spent over an hour getting more and more frustrated trying to get the little wire out of the socket with various pliers and scissors etc.

I eventually found some tweezers and the wire came out in less than a second...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Stabbsy on December 24, 2020, 02:47:56 pm
This morning I was changing a lightbulb and rather annoyingly one of the wires snapped whilst I was removing.

I spent over an hour getting more and more frustrated trying to get the little wire out of the socket with various pliers and scissors etc.

I eventually found some tweezers and the wire came out in less than a second...
What grade did you take for it?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on December 24, 2020, 03:09:10 pm
Did John Dunne use a kneebar to clip the chains on Austrian Oak when he did the first ascent?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on December 24, 2020, 03:29:59 pm
How many knee bars does it take to change a light bulb?
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on December 24, 2020, 04:39:02 pm
Did John Dunne use a kneebar to clip the chains on Austrian Oak when he did the first ascent?

He may have done. The belay was up and left before and I gather people did use a kneebar to clip it. Steve Dunning put in the current belay and it was far harder to clip (some dropped the redpoint here) than before until I discovered an unobvious but solid kneebar comfortable enough to be used wearing shorts so no kneed for kneepad.

Kneebars are not a recent invention. Mass produced kneepads with sticky rubber are and provide frictional as  well as pain reducing advantages.

The issues raised pertain primarily to use of kneepads to make moves easier and provide rests which weren’t possible before.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Will Hunt on December 24, 2020, 05:51:38 pm
Did John Dunne use a kneebar to clip the chains on Austrian Oak when he did the first ascent?

He may have done. The belay was up and left before and I gather people did use a kneebar to clip it. Steve Dunning put in the current belay and it was far harder to clip (some dropped the redpoint here) than before until I discovered an unobvious but solid kneebar comfortable enough to be used wearing shorts so no kneed for kneepad.

Kneebars are not a recent invention. Mass produced kneepads with sticky rubber are and provide frictional as  well as pain reducing advantages.

The issues raised pertain primarily to use of kneepads to make moves easier and provide rests which weren’t possible before.

So what you're saying is you're now climbing the Oak to a different point to that which was originally intended. Interesting.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on December 24, 2020, 06:17:29 pm
What happened to those cricketers who got found out tampering with the ball???
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on December 24, 2020, 06:37:51 pm
What happened to those cricketers who got found out tampering with the ball???

They have glorious careers in the media.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Sasquatch on December 27, 2020, 07:32:53 pm
I find the whole question throughly entertaining.  Cams were originally an issue because they made climbs to mush easier and safer.  Bolts were an issue because... Sticky rubber was an issue because....   Boulder pads were an issue because... kneepads are an issue because...   

Kneepads are here.  They're not going away. You can choose to not use kneepads.  You can choose to climb routes without sticky rubber shoes.  You can choose to not clip bolts. You can choose to not use boulder pads.  It's your choice.  But to say kneepads are "off" is just the current version of the old bolt chopping wars.  Thankfully, this is just on the interwebs, and is way less important in the scheme of things...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: gme on December 27, 2020, 07:55:30 pm
Megos isn’t saying they shouldn’t be used he’s just saying if they make something easier you should be honest and say so which seems fair to me.

I’m old school enough to think that bouldering should be done with an approved sequence never mind all this kneepad bollocks, or you don’t get the full tick. Bouldering is so arbitrary anyway that rules should exist.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Doylo on December 27, 2020, 07:57:32 pm
Megos was basically calling Graham, Ondra and Barrows a cunt in that insta post. Graham and Ondra don’t deserve that.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on December 27, 2020, 08:02:09 pm
if they make something easier you should be honest and say so

Well duh. I hope he gets an honorary degree for that new insight.

I’m old school enough to think that bouldering should be done with an approved sequence
In the immortal words of Noble, "If that's rock climbing I'm not interested". Although obvs he was talking about kneebars. Or tall people. Or maybe both.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: teestub on December 27, 2020, 08:05:39 pm
Bouldering is so arbitrary anyway that rules should exist.

Any half decent boulder problem is no more arbitrary than route climbing. There’s an easy way up around the back you know 😄
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: SA Chris on January 05, 2021, 12:38:41 pm
What happened to those cricketers who got found out tampering with the ball???

You're confusing The Oak with The Ashes.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Ged on January 05, 2021, 08:16:43 pm
Megos isn’t saying they shouldn’t be used he’s just saying if they make something easier you should be honest and say so which seems fair to me.


I think he was. To me it sounded like he was saying if a pad wasn't used on the 1st ascent then you shouldn't use one. Which in my opinion is utter, utter bollix.
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on January 10, 2021, 05:57:44 pm
What's the bet that Seb B found a 9a+ method on Stoking the Fire, prompting a desperate attempt from Edu Marin to not have to take the lower grade when he does his proj, even though pads were common by 2013  :lol:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ3ouZmnUpp/?igshid=1xkx0hl7kmv1a
#biggradesforbadbeta

It strikes me more and more that this is mostly an issue with people using grades to represent how impressive an ascent is, but they're not a very good measure of it. For sure it's a more impressive display of ability to solo something barefoot no pads whilst on LSD, or more boringly to climb it in bad conditions, but it doesn't change the grade of the route...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: tomtom on January 10, 2021, 06:03:32 pm
I saw on IG that Ondra has a new blog post about the Ethics of knee pads etc... not read it but assume it’s relevant to all this FYI etc...
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: shark on January 10, 2021, 06:07:19 pm

Kneepad is, even though more and more widely accepted, still a pretty controversial piece of climbing gear 🤔 I have been quite eager for a while to express my opinion about it and that is why I decided to write a longer article. Actually, I wanted to make just a post, but one paragraph turned into way too long paragraph, and then into a proper article 💪

Kneepads do make some of the climbs easier. It might be seen as unethical, especially on some of the classic climbs, to use them as the first ascent was done without them. On the other hand, some marginal modern kneebars do not really change the grade, they might only just change the style and nature of the climb. Actually, some of the routes might get worse as they might be less consistent.
Check out my thoughts on this 🔥 hot issue on my website, the link in bio.

https://adamondra.com/updates/climbing-ethics

Rock climbing is sport (and much more than that) without referees, and its ethics are not written, not very often all climbers agree about them, and furthermore, they keep evolving. A topic that is very often discussed nowadays is the use of kneebars, or better kneebars with the use of kneepads. Surprisingly, kneepads have been WIDELY used in the climbing scene only for the last couple of years. It is true that there are a few crags like Hueco, Rifle or Jailhouse where locals have been using quite good home-made kneepads for decades, using duct tape to prevent them from moving on their legs. In Europe, you would see a home-made kneepad from time to time, but it was more of something against the pain and not really increasing the friction. My approach for many years had been - climbing in shorts, being gentle in the kneebars for a few climbing days in order to let my skin adapt, the skin really grew harder and I could sustain the pain of making multiple kneebars in one route in the limestone tufa cliffs. Sometimes, I would be sand-papering my knees for days before the trip to be better prepared. This worked really well in First Round First Minute 9b. My old home-made kneepad did not work for that kneebar, I just could not feel it. Bare skin did not stick enough either. So I eventually climbed the route in jeans, using a small piece of wet toilet paper on my skin just before setting off, which made my jeans really stick to the skin and eventually, that made my knee stick to the wall.

Modern kneepads are so good that they are not only comfortable to climb with and you do not bruise your skin - which means knee-baring has never been that much fun. But you can also do kneebars where it was impossible before. That might make some climbs significantly easier. My opinion is that it is just an evolution of climbing and most of us do not consider climbing shoes or chalk bag cheating. It is sad even for me to sometimes see that a certain classic climb can be climbed in a different way with the use of a kneepad, often making it a worse and less homogenous route. But it is something we must accept. Even for me, it was not easy to see Stefano Ghisolfi in Change, using the kneepads in places where it was not possible for me without kneepads, but it is evolution and in this case, fortunately I do not think it changes the grade.

While the kneepads are comfy to climb with, the more often you bring it into the routes, the more often you actually do kneebars and gradually you are getting better in them. It is a skill that must be practised just like crimping or making dynos. On the other hand, it sometimes leads to a situation that doing 30 kneebars in one route is actually not that efficient any more, and you would maybe climb better with less kneebars and resting. With more kneebar skills, I often find a kneebar myself which makes me excited that it is the trick that might help to send the route, but sometimes I find out a few tries later that this particular one is so bad that it does not help at all. And obviously it depends on your kneebar skills. Somebody who is not good in kneebars might prefer to skip a few of them, whereas some other climbers might be very thankful for them.

In case of Perfecto Mundo, all the kneebars are very marginal. If you do not have special taste for kneebars, you will probably never bother using them. I was very hesitant myself about most of them - if they actually help at all or if I would be better off just flowing through the route without them. I think it will be the case of many routes in the future that it will be an individual decision whether to bring a kneepad for some very marginal kneebars or not.

It is true, unfortunately, that the kneepads might make the grading a little more inconsistent. While some kneebars might be impossible for people of short size, there might be the opposite problem as well. At the moment, I do not have any problem at all using the kneepads on my first ascents or in the routes that were put up recently when the kneepads were accessible and available technology. On the other hand, there are some really historical routes like Hubble, world’s first 8c+ or 9a (grade of this route is not the topic of this article) where the use of a kneepad might be seen as questionable, because Ben Moon in 1990 did not know about this technology. And it might be fair to say that the only ascents that count should be done in the same style as Ben’s. Well, but climbing shoes have evolved, ropes have evolved, most climbers do not have that heavy rasta as Ben in 1990! On top of that, it is not that easy to find the line in terms of kneebars. If you only climb in shorts, then it is simple - you use just your bare skin. Once you use long pants, some pants are better for kneebars - jeans are better than other pants, etc. I do believe you might find a textile that might be almost as good as rubber. Where to draw the line then?

I think it is important for professional climbers nowadays not only declaring an ascent, but also the way of sending the route. It is quite obvious in terms of multipitch and alpine ascents to provide details, but it should be more obvious for sport-climbing and bouldering as well. (I mean, once you have a video, that is pretty much enough). Then, it is everybody’s decision to use or not to use a kneepad, use the original method or the new method and so on. On the other hand, I believe professional climbers should try to reflect these facts (kneepad when it wasn’t used for the FA, new beta and others) into the grading even though they only repeat the routes and should not just take the guidebook grade for granted.


Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: abarro81 on January 10, 2021, 06:10:49 pm
TLDR "downgrade the fuckers, but remember for historic ascents that they used to be harder so the old boys aren't as weak as you think"
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Fiend on January 10, 2021, 06:17:23 pm
Thanks Barrows that's a useful summary.

But not as useful as Doylo's summary:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oPrFDSf5ax4/X_tIZHZhWqI/AAAAAAAAC9g/qHF0uHKt60M__CRkQmOLRFygERlwYHy1ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/a6c67b08-585a-4b36-bd14-03f4f511f553.jpg)
Title: Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
Post by: Rob F on January 10, 2021, 07:01:50 pm
Shark- some rather dirty marginal padded kneebars in that Ondra article. Can you put an edit in your post to warn those of a sensitive nature???

Also can't believe Ondra failed to mention this thread, he kneeds to keep up...
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