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Topic slit Hubble with kneepad (Read 51342 times)

Rob F

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#125 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 12:14:20 pm
Does this mean that kneebars should be thought of as comparable to PEDs in cycling???

Maybe there should be a hierarchy of ascents???

Talk about it on the internet, abseil down / clipstick up, top rope, lead dog, kneebar assisted, lead sans kneebar after practice, onsight putting in the clips, solo.

Sure there could be something similar for bouldering...

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#126 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 12:39:01 pm
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010

You've misinterpreted me, I'm not having any dig at anybody, wipe some cream on that sensitive spot.
Kneepads make sense to me, and so do people's feelings of disappointment that a challenge they aspired to complete because they perceived it being one thing now seems somehow less appealing because they perceive it being something else. What's the saying... - 'all lived experience is valid'. You shouldn't just tell someone who feels disappointed that they're wrong, they aren't.

Seems a very reasonable position.

Sometimes, we also want to try to put ourselves in the "lived experience" of others too - including trying to emulate the way that they did things.

I think it's too simplistic to say that if present technology was available to climbers in the past, they'd use it - and by that, I also include new Beta.

More than just getting to the top, climbing seems to be about wanting to feel more "involved"/connected, and we all have preferred vehicles/ways to get to that place.

Using some crappy little spike on an eliminate at Minus 10 might require that I have to let go of myself more, to do a move. Surely the sweetness you access when you latch the move after 100 tries, is the point. If the spike snaps off, and you're left with a solid edge, that allows you to get to the top of "the problem" every time, even when you're climbing badly, then chances are, you might feel that something has been lost.

Isn't "the problem" really "Self" - and letting go of it?

The reason I wouldn't claim Hubble with a knee pad, is simply because that isn't the source of my inspiration. The photo of Ben on it very much might be! .. and everything he's having to release into the effort.

There are old problems in the Peak, with new holds, that I try to do again using the original sequence. I don't gain anything by using the new holds and method.

I do use knee bars on routes, and I have to decide if it's contrived not to put something grippier on my knees. To me, it feels like more of a cheat to add tape and padding - in the way that I prefer to try difficult jamming cracks without tape first. Without ropes (still processing that one) even better. Sometimes I wear clothes.

A couple of other points.
I very rarely climb with modern smaller cams on my harness, for the same reason that I don't have a bouldering mat. Rather than it being better, I feel I'm required to climb better.

Lastly, and this one is for Lore. I feel a little bit uncomfortable, suspecting that I'd have probably crashed my bike already, if I was using original equipment/non-sticky tyres, rather than the super sticky Bridgestones that are fitted!  ;D

Presumably despite your honourable no knee pad, no tape jamming you've got modern rubber shoes, not hobnailed boots? Everyone trades in their morals at some point on the scale.

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#127 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 01:09:17 pm
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010

You've misinterpreted me, I'm not having any dig at anybody, wipe some cream on that sensitive spot.
Kneepads make sense to me, and so do people's feelings of disappointment that a challenge they aspired to complete because they perceived it being one thing now seems somehow less appealing because they perceive it being something else. What's the saying... - 'all lived experience is valid'. You shouldn't just tell someone who feels disappointed that they're wrong, they aren't.

Seems a very reasonable position.

Sometimes, we also want to try to put ourselves in the "lived experience" of others too - including trying to emulate the way that they did things.

I think it's too simplistic to say that if present technology was available to climbers in the past, they'd use it - and by that, I also include new Beta.

More than just getting to the top, climbing seems to be about wanting to feel more "involved"/connected, and we all have preferred vehicles/ways to get to that place.

Using some crappy little spike on an eliminate at Minus 10 might require that I have to let go of myself more, to do a move. Surely the sweetness you access when you latch the move after 100 tries, is the point. If the spike snaps off, and you're left with a solid edge, that allows you to get to the top of "the problem" every time, even when you're climbing badly, then chances are, you might feel that something has been lost.

Isn't "the problem" really "Self" - and letting go of it?

The reason I wouldn't claim Hubble with a knee pad, is simply because that isn't the source of my inspiration. The photo of Ben on it very much might be! .. and everything he's having to release into the effort.

There are old problems in the Peak, with new holds, that I try to do again using the original sequence. I don't gain anything by using the new holds and method.

I do use knee bars on routes, and I have to decide if it's contrived not to put something grippier on my knees. To me, it feels like more of a cheat to add tape and padding - in the way that I prefer to try difficult jamming cracks without tape first. Without ropes (still processing that one) even better. Sometimes I wear clothes.

A couple of other points.
I very rarely climb with modern smaller cams on my harness, for the same reason that I don't have a bouldering mat. Rather than it being better, I feel I'm required to climb better.

Lastly, and this one is for Lore. I feel a little bit uncomfortable, suspecting that I'd have probably crashed my bike already, if I was using original equipment/non-sticky tyres, rather than the super sticky Bridgestones that are fitted!  ;D

Presumably despite your honourable no knee pad, no tape jamming you've got modern rubber shoes, not hobnailed boots? Everyone trades in their morals at some point on the scale.

Hi Anti.

Thank you for your reply.
Hopefully, if you read my post - about motivations/rewards etc - you'll understand that I'm not making any claims to what is honourable or not, but what I find inspiring, and where to set the bar, so that I'm required to climb better.

I'm sorry if that isn't very clear.
There's something in that, which is similar to getting on things we're not very good at. When we improve/succeed, it's often more rewarding.

I tend to think that I would prefer it, if there was less "tech" - things might be simpler - but it's easy to say that now, rather than squeezing into a pair of Firés (the old Boreal sticky boots from '83) that don't fit.

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#128 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 01:38:08 pm
Interesting, I suppose I come across as snarky but I mean more that we all have a sliding scale as to what we think is a fair ascent.

I suppose we all have similar inclinations, we often prefer to do something with a certain beta just because it feels fun that way despite not perhaps being optimal (tho not at our limit).

I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.

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#129 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 01:46:33 pm
Just Vectors, white socks, 1/2 length stone monkey tights (and a rack full of friends) in that photo of Grimer pulling on the crux...

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#130 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 01:53:34 pm
I think modern boots would have had as bigger effect on doing Hubble than the knee bar but no one seems bothered by that ( rightly).

More interestingly it seems to be settling at 9a as I don’t think anyone has downgraded it. Only megos has said 8c+ out of the most recent ascents and he was never going to say 9a.

Personally still think it should be 8c+ and just be hard though but that doesn’t work as all the other uk routes have been upgraded. All seemed fine years ago.

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#131 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 03:01:30 pm
Interesting, I suppose I come across as snarky but I mean more that we all have a sliding scale as to what we think is a fair ascent.

I suppose we all have similar inclinations, we often prefer to do something with a certain beta just because it feels fun that way despite not perhaps being optimal (tho not at our limit).

I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.

I don't think it's one or the other.

Critiquing things, is what we do, to differentiate. It helps us understand what we're talking about, and it feels as though sometimes, people don't want to differentiate.

It's a valid question/observation, to consider how much easier certain routes/problems are with things like pads, or with Beta that might seem contrived/eliminate. It's not a case of saying one thing is valid, the other, not, but we do have scales of difficulty.

Often the comparison seems misplaced. It would seem to make sense to ask how Hubble with a pad compares in difficulty to other routes - say Evolution, Kaabah (not very good comparisons either, I know!).

I do suspect that the motivation to climb Hubble with a pad, comes from some degree of fixed notion of what Hubble is - rather than fully considering just how different the two ways are.

People have an idea of what Hubble means, and that is the draw. Hubble with a pad is put closer to the same category as Hubble without, rather than another route.

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#132 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 03:03:31 pm
I feel that in any climbing we all have our own personal interpretation of what constitutes a fair and valid ascent; and this varies from person to person, from place to place as well as over time.

I was quite satisfied with climbing a E3 from the seventies over 3 bouldering mats the other week, despite the first ascentionist having no such luxury; however if I had top roped it first I would have felt like I had ‘cheated’. Someone else may have felt the pads were cheating; or may have been happy just to climb the route on top rope.

A lot of the joy of climbing, and why it attracts many who shun ‘organised sport’ is that it has no rules. As long as you don’t damage things for others or lie about what you’ve done it’s all good really.



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#133 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 03:15:02 pm
Interesting, I suppose I come across as snarky but I mean more that we all have a sliding scale as to what we think is a fair ascent.

I suppose we all have similar inclinations, we often prefer to do something with a certain beta just because it feels fun that way despite not perhaps being optimal (tho not at our limit).

I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.
It's not a case of saying one thing is valid, the other, not, but we do have scales of difficulty.

It feels like initially that's exactly what you did by saying you didn't think it a valid ascent by your internal standards, although rather than euphemism it would seem to have just been poorly worded as you elaborate further.

In the context of Hubble its all academic anyway, even a crane couldn't get me up it and no-one would call that a fair tick.

DAVETHOMAS90

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#134 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 08:18:24 pm

It feels like initially that's exactly what you did by saying you didn't think it a valid ascent by your internal standards, although rather than euphemism it would seem to have just been poorly worded as you elaborate further.

In the context of Hubble its all academic anyway, even a crane couldn't get me up it and no-one would call that a fair tick.

Hi Anti.

It may feel that way, but not intended.

However, I don't think you can validly claim that one way is the same as/equivalent to the other. They ARE different, and I think the degree of difference is an interesting debate.

When things are sufficiently different, they then get called different things.

Couple of points.

Take Northern Lights at Kilnsey.
Steve McC climbed it with a slightly different line/holds to those that Ben (and Malc?) used. How different - in terms of difficulty - are the different lines? Are they different routes? In some settings they might be considered different lines. We think of things as different, when it's useful. With Hubble, yes, I think it's more representative to consider them different.

Regarding the question of validity - think about it (sorry) - what wouldn't be valid about your ascent with a crane. Granted, I'd accept you wouldn't validly claim they were equivalent ascents  ;D

Take it easy though, the Red-crowned Crane is the heaviest, and can weigh up to 12kg. That's probably more than Ben's dreads weighed.

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#135 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 08:57:46 pm
Oooo, opened up a whole new philosophical can of worms now. Has anyone repeated anything ever???

Anyone know of any twins that go climbing???

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#136 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 09:25:52 pm
Ben and Jon Freeman are identical twins and both pretty handy.

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#137 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 01:01:11 am
Oooo, opened up a whole new philosophical can of worms now. Has anyone repeated anything ever???

Anyone know of any twins that go climbing???

Ha! Brilliant.. and by the same token, there's no such thing as a "first ascent".

Consider the ship of Theseus in Greek mythology, and similar ideas in Buddhism, although I don't think it requires particularly obscure or mystic thought.

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#138 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 06:58:32 am
And by the same reasoning you never do the same problem in the same way (exactly...) even if you think you do.

Which is why a problem sometimes feels easy - or good - or not good - or tough , if you repeat it often....

Which is one of the many reasons why I like climbing so much.

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#139 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 07:28:24 am

It feels like initially that's exactly what you did by saying you didn't think it a valid ascent by your internal standards, although rather than euphemism it would seem to have just been poorly worded as you elaborate further.

In the context of Hubble its all academic anyway, even a crane couldn't get me up it and no-one would call that a fair tick.

Hi Anti.

It may feel that way, but not intended.

However, I don't think you can validly claim that one way is the same as/equivalent to the other. They ARE different, and I think the degree of difference is an interesting debate.

When things are sufficiently different, they then get called different things.

Couple of points.

Take Northern Lights at Kilnsey.
Steve McC climbed it with a slightly different line/holds to those that Ben (and Malc?) used. How different - in terms of difficulty - are the different lines? Are they different routes? In some settings they might be considered different lines. We think of things as different, when it's useful. With Hubble, yes, I think it's more representative to consider them different.

Regarding the question of validity - think about it (sorry) - what wouldn't be valid about your ascent with a crane. Granted, I'd accept you wouldn't validly claim they were equivalent ascents  ;D

Take it easy though, the Red-crowned Crane is the heaviest, and can weigh up to 12kg. That's probably more than Ben's dreads weighed.

Well this gets into an even deeper territory of why you climb a route at all haha. Are you looking to mimic the exact first ascent, move for move, imagining yourself as your childhood hero, or is it starting in the same place, ending in the same place and using a different toolkit overcoming the same challenges?

If your argument is where does the line between different beta and different route come in then it's individual interpretation, is the original route an eliminate and even an intermediate is out, or would there be key defined holds that one has to use? In my guidebooks routes are defined by a wiggly line up a cliff face and I enjoy the ambiguity in that. We all agree where they start and finish and what happens in the middle is your own personal battle. You clipped the chains and you get the tick. Dreadlocks or not.

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#140 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 01:12:35 pm
Two things.

1. The same place doesn't really exist  ;D - although by consensus, we choose to see it that way.

2. I tend to think that the purpose of discussion like this, is to help decide what interpretation to collectively use.

Actually,

3. Yes, ambiguity in climbing can be a really enjoyable part of the process. Sometimes it's part of the adventure. Sometimes we use it to our advantage. Sometimes it's a pain in the bum. Sometimes we deceive ourselves.

Don't give up on Hubble. In Japan, they say that a thousand folded paper cranes can make a wish come true  :2thumbsup:


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#141 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 02:04:27 pm
A thousand? Any skincare tips for papercuts? Heel balm?

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#142 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 06:05:57 pm
I am offended by the picture of storks in reference to cranes

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#143 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 06:25:03 pm
After a week away, I first read the "topic slit" as "topic sit" and thought why the hell someone would do a sit start to Hubble with a kneepad.

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#144 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 07:26:16 pm
A thousand? Any skincare tips for papercuts? Heel balm?

That's a good humoured response   :clap2:

Sorry about all the references to Cranes  ;D Hope it wasn't too obscure. The picture reminded me of the pack hanging out beneath Mecca.

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#145 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 08:05:02 pm
Is this the pack that's ridden to the Tor on their Electric Bikes???

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#146 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 09:04:59 pm
Let's hope we dont have to try and work out how hard this is with/without knees

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#147 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 09:39:46 pm
getting a blow from a fan whilst in a kneebar, seen it all now.

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#148 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 09:41:19 pm
getting a blow from a fan whilst in a kneebar, seen it all now.

Is that just out of the top of the shot?

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#149 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 09:48:05 pm
probably, he's definitely got that look.

 

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