[tomtom]

UKB did something weird when I edited my post slightly and I ended up with a new post I can't get rid of...

Thats wouldn't look so good on a T Shirt...

[Rob F]

Looking forwards to wearing that t-shirt next time in font, struggling with a rounded top out...

[Danny]

Isla de Encanta for example, I believe Barrows has tried that kneebar

I haven't actually, but I've certainly found knees that are very technically challenging - often so hard that it becomes better for me not to use them, though it seemed like someone with 10% more skill would get it to work.. There are also very easy ones. Same as heels, as you say. I think I recall a conversation with Mason after he'd been in the US and climbed with DG where he was very impressed by DG's knee skills.

I don't understand the point about some knees being technical. Surely most knees make things at least marginally easier, or doable.

The knees that you use make things easier, otherwise you wouldn't use them. Same as heels. I'm not entirely sure what you don't understand about Jack's post? His point was that, like Ned can use heels that others struggle to get to work, there are times when a knee makes it easier for someone good at knees but when many/some people won't have the requisite technical ability on that style of move to make it work. (I've definitely done, for example, 7B boulders with a 7B+ sequence due to a lack of skills with my heels before)

Anyway, despite my firm agreeent with Jack about armchair downgrading being dumb, Jose Luis Palao posted this on insta after doing various of the Ali Baba links, so it seems like there may be downgrades coming:
La cueva "Ali baba" No estamos escalando las mísmas vias o boulders que hace cerca 15 años hizo sus primeras ascensiónes @dani_andrada_climb ,
Aún teniendo una nueva extensión,(extensión total) y sea en teoría más dura..., aparecen nuevas presas,nuevos métodos, nuevos recursos con las "RODILLERAS" , lo que la ha convertido en un estilo de escalada más asequible.

Para mí esto es más importante que un número y una letra es seguir con la filosofía que yo aprendí en mis inicios, que creo que se está perdiendo no siempre más es más, hay que aceptar que esto no es lo que era con sus pros y sus contras, pero realmente da que pensar,... yo no quiero contribuir a esta manera de entender la escalada, por eso comparto esta opinión.

which Google translates as
The cave "Ali baba" We are not climbing the same routes or boulders that about 15 years ago made his first ascents @dani_andrada_climb,
Even having a new extension, (total extension) and it is in theory more difficult ..., new holds, new methods, new resources with the "KNEE PADS" appear, which has made it a more affordable climbing style.

For me this is more important than a number and a letter is to continue with the philosophy that I learned in my beginnings, which I think is being lost not always more is more, we must accept that this is not what it was with its pros and its cons, but it really gives food for thought, ... I don't want to contribute to this way of understanding climbing, that's why I share this opinion.
If anyone can do a better translation, but I assume he's saying that it all needs a downgrade for the new beta (he did them with pads), and people shouldn't kid themselves.

Andrada's comment in reply::
Bueno primo en verdad da igual lo que se hizo Haze años, lo importante es lo que se hace ahora vivir el presente , al final cada uno sabe lo que hace y el ego mata al ser humano ya lo sabes, las rodilleras es una evolución y está claro que jode las vías de antes del 2015 pero bueno , es lo qe ay , cada momento tiene su historia y las vías cambian como la vida, se rompen presas crecen presas ... Tu ya sabes al final da igual , más daño hace el Instagram y nadie se queja por qué ay todos somos muy guay ssss , postura para que el mundo lo vea...

Well, cousin, it really doesn't matter what Haze was done years ago, the important thing is what one does now live in the present, in the end everyone knows what they are doing and the ego kills the human being, you know, knee pads is an evolution and It is clear that it fucks the tracks before 2015 but hey, that's what it is, every moment has its history and the tracks change like life, damsholds break, damsholds grow ... You already know in the end it does not matter, more damage does Instagram and nobody complains why oh we are all very cool ssss, position for the world to see ...
Which I read as "smash on with the knees, routes change, who cares, let's downgrade the fuckers" (as an aside, people were definitely climbing with rubber kneepads in 2011 when I was in Rodellar, so his chronology may involve some artistic license)

Maybe I misread Jack's post. I can't see how the fact that he's crap with knees has any bearing on how being good with knees might reduce the difficulty of a route.

Didn't Ondra just downgrade one of Ghisolfi's routes when he found a single minging knee? I can't be arsed counting the number of knees Graham uses on Ail Hulk, but it looks to be in the range of dozens. I'm pretty happy speculating that it's easier with knees. Also a nicer style I think. Engineering a less basic path through the difficulties is something I aspire to.

And what Google-translated and Barrows-paraphrased Andrada said. 

 

[Danny]

Barrows on Pilgrimage is amazing to watch. .

Bloody pervert.

Always 

[petejh]

It's like when someone says Ned has been and 'broke' something with a heel hook, I'd wager if they went and tried said heel hook they'd leave with their tail between their legs, in my experience they are usually shit and nearly impossible. Same for Barrows and the kneebars. People just dismiss them as piss, it's very often not the case. Both are often technically super hard as it's skills they've taken years to acquire and worked at for along time.

100% agree with this for heelhooks. Having spent years seeing Robins pull through off his heels on endless crux sequences.. and people trying to replicate what he did discovering that what he did is actually impossible for them.
 
I accept the same technicality can be true for some marginal kneescums or kneebars, however I'd suggest that kneebars usually require less flexibility and skillset that heels do.

And as Danny suggests, even from the armchair it’s obvious that some of those kneebars on the Ali Hulk footage aren’t marginal - he’s locked in on both knees fully resting both arms for ages. No doubt his core and legs are getting a beasting while he's resting his arms, however legs do have massively more work capacity than arms - I’ve never fallen off anything steep because my legs were too tired to hang on and doubt anyone else has (maybe from a bat-hang?)..

It does seem from the armchair that DG climbs a very different physical challenge to Mitdboe.

If routes should be graded to reflect the easiest and most common way of doing them... then the outcome is obvious.

[remus]

I accept the same technicality can be true for some marginal kneescums or kneebars, however I'd suggest that kneebars usually require less flexibility and skillset that heels do.

Personally I've found this to be less and less true the better I've got at knee barring. I think it's just that most people aren't great at knee bars so the ones you see on a day to day are the obvious ones that don't require much technique.

Body position on knees is pretty key, and having the hip flexibility to get your body in the optimal spot to get the most from a knee is not something many people are good at. Similarly marginal knees often need plenty of calf power to make them work which isn't something many people are good at.

[User deactivated]

Pete and his golden heels!

Yeah I agree, downgrades on the way for sure. Bring it on.

Danny, I was just saying some knees are hard and I don’t rate people downgrading over the internet that’s all. And yeah my knee skills are rubbish, something to work on along with a million other things.

[abarro81]

I’ve never fallen off anything steep because my legs were too tired to hang on and doubt anyone else has

I've
1) fallen out of a no-hands kneebar because I got sloppy and stopped pushing into it hard enough (see that Ondra kneebar video - was glad to see it's not just me that's fallen out of a no-hands!)
2) Kneebarred on my hand on an onsight and fallen off trying to extricate myself from the situation
3) Regularly had to leave a knee because my legs, core and head are too pumped, then fallen on the next section because I'd failed to recover enough in the rest. This is almost precisely "falling off something steep because my legs were too tired"
So while I'd always take a rest when it's available, I translate your comment as "I don't climb steep, long 3D and/or tufa routes very often and especially not onsight" 

[spidermonkey09]

Last summer, I'm told Eder Lopez was attempting to demonstrate how 'good' the kneebar on Cry Freedom is (when you have a core of steel) by hanging hands off. A few seconds later he was plummeting down the crag upside down. 

[petejh]

I’ve never fallen off anything steep because my legs were too tired to hang on and doubt anyone else has

I've
1) fallen out of a no-hands kneebar because I got sloppy and stopped pushing into it hard enough (see that Ondra kneebar video - was glad to see it's not just me that's fallen out of a no-hands!)
2) Kneebarred on my hand on an onsight and fallen off trying to extricate myself from the situation
3) Regularly had to leave a knee because my legs, core and head are too pumped, then fallen on the next section because I'd failed to recover enough in the rest. This is almost precisely "falling off something steep because my legs were too tired"
So while I'd always take a rest when it's available, I translate your comment as "I don't climb steep, long 3D and/or tufa routes very often and especially not onsight" 

You're correct about the 3D and tufa bit. And probably the onsight bit unless it's steep mixed! (Which can be very 3D, more so in some ways than rockclimbing).

And seeing as, ahead of the oncoming apocalypse, we're all in debate mode today I feel the need to retort with the obvious observation that had you not used the kneebar 'rests' then you'd probably have fallen off due to your arms failing long before your legs failed after the kneebar 'rest'.

[petejh]

Here's an article by Edu Marin on kneepads on new routes and resetting grades for old routes. He seems to suggest a dual grading for older routes instead of downgrading - La Rambla at 9a+ or 9a(KP).
I think that would be too clumsy to adopt. Like others say, just regrade for most common and easiest sequence. Although Panton did it for the cave - dual grades with/without pads.

https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/edu-marin-knee-pads-and-grades/?cn-reloaded=1

''So what about those routes not originally graded with knee pads in mind, such as La Rambla?  Should we need give it a lower grade, and do the same to all of the routes that are now more frequently climbed with knee pads? While downgrading is one option, it does not seem fair to me that climbers who have invested years of work to achieve these projects will now see them downgraded by other climbers who use knee pads but do not note the difference.

In my opinion, another option is to add a new piece of info to the grading system, something that explains whether knee pads (KP) were used or not. The grade for a climb like Catxasa, for example could be either “9a (KP)” or “9a+ (no KP)''

[jwi]

Didn't Ondra just downgrade one of Ghisolfi's routes when he found a single minging knee?

I gathered from the comments on here https://www.instagram.com/p/CGc7CH2DNK9/ that Jakob Schubert didn't think the knee helped much...

[AMorris]

I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.

The Hubble bubble, kneebar trouble.
Polished choss and sika'd rubble.

[Sasquatch]

I accept the same technicality can be true for some marginal kneescums or kneebars, however I'd suggest that kneebars usually require less flexibility and skillset that heels do.

Personally I've found this to be less and less true the better I've got at knee barring. I think it's just that most people aren't great at knee bars so the ones you see on a day to day are the obvious ones that don't require much technique.

Body position on knees is pretty key, and having the hip flexibility to get your body in the optimal spot to get the most from a knee is not something many people are good at. Similarly marginal knees often need plenty of calf power to make them work which isn't something many people are good at.

There is an entire subset of strength/morphology needed to make many kneebars work well.  I've spent years now trying to get better and kneebarring, and I'm finally not complete crap at it.  I can see most reasonable kneebars, and get into them.  Not all work for me, and in many cases they are not easier for me. 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I guess the danger is when you start commenting on other people's ascents you leave the bubble of your personal motivation and enter the world of criticism.

The Hubble bubble, kneebar trouble.
Polished choss and sika'd rubble.

Ha ha. Very good! 

Personally, I find the extra faff a bit much. I'm more into Midtboe on Ali Hulk than the Graham version, though you can't say that one is valid, the other not.

Regarding grades, I've always seen them - on sport - as a sort of price at which things get traded..:

"Has been climbed (traded) at 9a.. but goes at 9a+ pure.."

Something like that.

Good to categorise both ways on some routes, but not all.
At a personal level, would anyone be too bothered? i.e. trying Grooved Arete at Kilnsey, just try it without KPs as a personal challenge. If the route's graded for the easiest way (though I'd prefer it if it wasn't for pads), then you'd just be aware that what you're doing is just a bit harder.

In some ways, that makes it sound a bit like the development of rear cassettes on push bikes. You just have a few more gears to go at!

[Bonjoy]

Kneepads on Grooved Arete are purely for comfort. I climbed it circa 2005 with a doubled up scarf tied round my knee. It would have been no harder without the scarf, just a lot more painful. Go down your proposed route and what do you give masocist padless ascents using a naked kneebar (other than a gold medal for stupidity)? Or is the grade for not using the kneebar regardless of padding? In which case, how much do I get for a one footed, or no thumbs ascent?

[moose]

Kneepads on Grooved Arete are purely for comfort. I climbed it circa 2005 with a doubled up scarf tied round my knee. It would have been no harder without the scarf, just a lot more painful. Go down your proposed route and what do you give masocist padless ascents using a naked kneebar (other than a gold medal for stupidity)? Or is the grade for not using the kneebar regardless of padding? In which case, how much do I get for a one footed, or no thumbs ascent?

And what about ascents with no knee pad but a hefty dose of analgesics to mitigate the pain from a naked kneebar?!   The only solution is guidebooks with a multidimensional grade calculation surface to ascertain your grade based on degree of equipage, expertise in knee usage, and sensory nervous system function in the lower body.

[Doylo]

I found the crux kneebar on Trigger Cut and did it first in a pair of jeans. Then I glued a bit of rubber to my jeans, then a neoprene knee support. Then the 5.10 pad came out and changed the game and it’s 7b+ now cos you can kneebar the other moves too.

[Bonjoy]

Sad times. I have visions of you cracking one day and going mad with a stihl saw chopping all the kneebar placements off.

[36chambers]

I found the crux kneebar on Trigger Cut and did it first in a pair of jeans. Then I glued a bit of rubber to my jeans, then a neoprene knee support. Then the 5.10 pad came out and changed the game and it’s 7b+ now cos you can kneebar the other moves too.

So it was you who introduced the first knee bar to the cave! The Parisella's knee bar story arc is phenomenal

[teestub]

So it was you who introduced the first knee bar to the cave! The Parisella's knee bar story arc is phenomenal

It deserves an opera or at least the Shakespeare treatment! Doylo makes a Faustian pact with some rubber...

[Doylo]

I found the crux kneebar on Trigger Cut and did it first in a pair of jeans. Then I glued a bit of rubber to my jeans, then a neoprene knee support. Then the 5.10 pad came out and changed the game and it’s 7b+ now cos you can kneebar the other moves too.

So it was you who introduced the first knee bar to the cave! The Parisella's knee bar story arc is phenomenal

Possibly, it was still hard in jeans tho. A long way from Barrows getting a no hands rest in the middle of Directors 

[remus]

Possibly, it was still hard in jeans tho. A long way from Barrows getting a no hands rest in the middle of Directors 

That's how it always starts "Oh it's just a little scum, doesn't really change the grade". Before you know it you're down at the tanning salon getting a full body glue spray down so your gimp suit doesn't slip around when you're slithering along pilgrimage.

[Doylo]

Rubber kneepads were complete gamechangers. I’ve used the towel round knee like most years ago and it’s just a massive difference. Kneebarring is a skill obviously but I think much less so than heel and toe hooks. It’s just more leg size dependent what fits who. Really nails ones like the one on Isla are pretty rare imo.  Oh and since the whole world is giving DG 9b for a sit start route I’m having 8c for my one in Cave 

[cheque]

Oh, for the simple days of homemade kneepads that were deliberately designed to be ineffective.