UKBouldering.com

Topic slit Hubble with kneepad (Read 51326 times)

User deactivated

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 286
  • Karma: +35/-0
#200 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 22, 2020, 09:32:57 am
Rubber kneepads were complete gamechangers. I’ve used the towel round knee like most years ago and it’s just a massive difference. Kneebarring is a skill obviously but I think much less so than heel and toe hooks. It’s just more leg size dependent what fits who. Really nails ones like the one on Isla are pretty rare imo.  Oh and since the whole world is giving DG 9b for a sit start route I’m having 8c for my one in Cave  :beer2:

Might aswell. If it’s good enough for DG then why not. 9a in there next.

Rob F

Offline
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +17/-0
#201 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 22, 2020, 01:34:29 pm
To be sure it's probably best to aim for 9b, that way when it gets downgraded for using kneepads it will settle in nicely at middle of the range 9a...

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5778
  • Karma: +622/-36
#202 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 22, 2020, 03:07:17 pm
Is it really a 9b route with a sit start, and 9a+ route without? The climbing world's lost its marbles.

jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4219
  • Karma: +331/-1
    • On Steep Ground
#203 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 22, 2020, 06:04:30 pm
Is it really a 9b route with a sit start, and 9a+ route without? The climbing world's lost its marbles.

There is a 35 m long, gently overhanging route in Bürs, Austria that is 8c+ if you sitstart in a small cave at the foot of the route. The route is called "Nobody is perfect", and had the project name "sombody is perfect". It changed name when the first ascent got stolen by someone who took umbrage with the drilled holds and filled them with sika. An action that apparently lead to fisticuffs at the base of the route. (Experts on the sport climbing history of the Central Eastern Alps can correct me if I misunderstood some part of the saga...)

So a fist-fight about the sitstart in a grotty cave below a route with filled-in pockets. The climbing world never had marbles to start with....

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#204 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 22, 2020, 09:20:27 pm
ldets face it, as a past time, it's pretty stupid to start with.

Stupid, but gloriously so.

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13413
  • Karma: +676/-67
  • Whut
#205 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 22, 2020, 09:59:06 pm
Nice ancedote jwi  :)

DAVETHOMAS90

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Dave Thomas is an annual climber to 1.7m, with strongly fragrant flowers
  • Posts: 1726
  • Karma: +166/-6
  • Don't die with your music still inside you ;)
#206 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 11:27:43 am
Kneepads on Grooved Arete are purely for comfort. I climbed it circa 2005 with a doubled up scarf tied round my knee. It would have been no harder without the scarf, just a lot more painful. Go down your proposed route and what do you give masocist padless ascents using a naked kneebar (other than a gold medal for stupidity)? Or is the grade for not using the kneebar regardless of padding? In which case, how much do I get for a one footed, or no thumbs ascent?

And what about ascents with no knee pad but a hefty dose of analgesics to mitigate the pain from a naked kneebar?!   The only solution is guidebooks with a multidimensional grade calculation surface to ascertain your grade based on degree of equipage, expertise in knee usage, and sensory nervous system function in the lower body.

Missing the point, sorry.

I was just saying that the grade is akin to "the going rate".

Like everything, when people have invested a great deal of time and effort in something, whether it's training, your house, savings .. whatever, there's just a resistance to having things devalued; you want more for your efforts, not less.

I wasn't proposing some sort of detailed, sliding scale of grades for differing styles/tactics.

Reflecting on BJ's comments, if we were talking about "scarfs tied around knees", the difference would be marginal, but we're not.


Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
#207 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 12:07:19 pm
I wasn't responding to your whole post, just your stated preference for GA to be graded for ascent without a kneepad. Which I think I demonstrated is not really workable.

DAVETHOMAS90

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Dave Thomas is an annual climber to 1.7m, with strongly fragrant flowers
  • Posts: 1726
  • Karma: +166/-6
  • Don't die with your music still inside you ;)
#208 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 02:34:40 pm
I wasn't responding to your whole post, just your stated preference for GA to be graded for ascent without a kneepad. Which I think I demonstrated is not really workable.

Thanks for clarifying your post Bonjoy, but I wasn't saying that:

"At a personal level, would anyone be too bothered? i.e. trying Grooved Arete at Kilnsey, just try it without KPs as a personal challenge. If the route's graded for the easiest way (though I'd prefer it if it wasn't for pads), then you'd just be aware that what you're doing is just a bit harder."

Saying I'd prefer it if it wasn't graded for pads (the result), is not the same as saying I'd prefer if it was graded for "an ascent without pads".

I'm saying that it would be a shame if it was graded for an ascent with pads.. but you could just climb it without .. or with a scarf! .. knowing it's probably harder that way.

I think we're in agreement about what would be unworkable in this instance, but on other routes (Hubble?) having no pad, might be a workable distinction.

This is very much like borderline line calls in tennis. There are situations where the ball is clearly one side of the line, in, out, or on the line, but there are always cases where it's hard to tell. Undecided. Just because there are black/white cases, doesn't mean the case IS black/white.

Oh my Gödel.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#209 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 02:39:56 pm
Saying I'd prefer it if it wasn't graded for pads (the result), is not the same as saying I'd prefer if it was graded for "an ascent without pads".
You'll have to elaborate on this, because I'm struggling to see the distinction, especially in a world where grades apply to routes, and not to ascents

spidermonkey09

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2815
  • Karma: +159/-4
#210 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 02:53:26 pm

This is very much like borderline line calls in tennis. There are situations where the ball is clearly one side of the line, in, out, or on the line, but there are always cases where it's hard to tell. Undecided. Just because there are black/white cases, doesn't mean the case IS black/white.


Off topic, but actually it is black and white in the modern game with hawkeye. The ball is either in or out, there isn't a middle ground to argue over; one of the reasons we don't see McEnroe style meltdowns as much anymore because that tension has been diffused.

Back on topic, as Barrows says grades apply to routes. As you say, a sliding scale of granulated difficulty depending on the thickness of material used on ones knee is not going to happen as its hugely impractical. What will likely happen is grades will change where required as using a kneepad becomes standard. This might affect the Hubble that lives in your mind, as Stu eloquently said, but practically speaking its the only solution, and also the logical one. Ones personal opinion on it is sort of irrelevant when everyone else thinks the opposite.

Rob F

Offline
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +17/-0
#211 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 06:54:18 pm
Sounds like we need a quick whipround to get Hawkeye set up at the tor and in the cave. Stop the chances of dodgy dealings, and a McEnroe meltdown happening.

Speaking of which, I haven't seen a clip of someone doing a chalkbag boot for ages...

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20282
  • Karma: +641/-11
#212 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 07:00:53 pm
There’s a funny video somewhere of Dobbin deconstructing a chalk bag found at the tor... (your post Rob reminded me of that). I was sure it was on Sharks YouTube - and when there I found this gem again.



So it’s completely off topic - sorry 😂

Rob F

Offline
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +17/-0
#213 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 07:10:52 pm
Need Hawkeye very closely watching that 3rd bolt...

DAVETHOMAS90

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Dave Thomas is an annual climber to 1.7m, with strongly fragrant flowers
  • Posts: 1726
  • Karma: +166/-6
  • Don't die with your music still inside you ;)
#214 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 10:12:13 pm
Saying I'd prefer it if it wasn't graded for pads (the result), is not the same as saying I'd prefer if it was graded for "an ascent without pads".
You'll have to elaborate on this, because I'm struggling to see the distinction, especially in a world where grades apply to routes, and not to ascents

I think that's the point. We think that grades apply to routes far more than they really do.

We tend to think the route is far more fixed than it really is. The style of ascent is more like the current fashionable interpretation. A bit like playing difficult pieces of music, which are far more interpretation than literal.

We're saying that a route's current "weighting"/value is such and such.. Sometimes, where the distinction is very clear, then yes, give both grades.

I was simply saying that I'd prefer it if routes didn't get given "current easiest grade" with a knee pad.

Regarding Hawkeye/Black/White etc, that's still the result. No technology can measure things in black/white terms. There'll be some way of dealing with results that lie indeterminate - within the constraints of errors. So in cricket for instance, you have Umpire's Call.

I bet there are lots of ascents on longer steep sport, where there's a bit of undeclared tension. Harder to determine than a "dab".

Where there is a clear distinction between say pads/no pads, then we're really talking about different routes/styles of ascent.

Whatever happened to dodgy McEnroe style sweatbands by the way?

Love the vid of course.

(Nice article here about the accuracy of prediction of Hawkeye:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/sifting-the-evidence/2013/jul/08/hawk-eye-wimbledon   )
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 10:21:42 pm by DAVETHOMAS90 »

Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
#215 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 10:28:23 pm
Grades aren't there to capture how hard a climb used to be. They are a guide/reference for how hard a climb is at present. This includes the current set of holds , the best available sequence, and equipment (within the accepted rules of the game). They're barely adequate at this their core function. They're downright shit at achieving all the others things people try to get them to do.

webbo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5028
  • Karma: +141/-13
#216 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 10:32:55 pm
 :clap2:

DAVETHOMAS90

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Dave Thomas is an annual climber to 1.7m, with strongly fragrant flowers
  • Posts: 1726
  • Karma: +166/-6
  • Don't die with your music still inside you ;)
#217 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 11:13:03 pm
Grades aren't there to capture how hard a climb used to be. They are a guide/reference for how hard a climb is at present. This includes the current set of holds , the best available sequence, and equipment (within the accepted rules of the game). They're barely adequate at this their core function. They're downright shit at achieving all the others things people try to get them to do.

You think of the climb as a fixed, thing in itself, I don't.

I just don't see Hubble with a pad, as the same route, as Hubble without.

That's the debate here, in many ways, isn't it? Do we start to make distinctions, where a route is clearly significantly changed in grade/difficulty?

Webbo, clap away if you like, but no-one is trying to say that all the weird and wonderful variations should be graded for.

As a point of discussion, what about stuffing extra clothing underneath the pad, if your shin isn't long enough? What if it's a couple of mm but makes all the difference? 10mm? Is that still OK?

I'm asking the question, not because they should all have clear-cut answers, but because some things just have to get talked about like this and decided/reviewed.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 11:25:40 pm by DAVETHOMAS90 »

36chambers

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1678
  • Karma: +154/-4
#218 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 11:18:41 pm
Assuming, for a moment, that Hubble was irrefutably 9a before the knee bar was found and is now 8c+.

If I went and climbed it with the original beta I'd certainly write in my diary that night "today I climbed 9a #biggradesforbadbeta". And it wouldn't matter what anyone else may think as they wouldn't be reading my diary anyway :)

Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
#219 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 11:30:50 pm
Grades aren't there to capture how hard a climb used to be. They are a guide/reference for how hard a climb is at present. This includes the current set of holds , the best available sequence, and equipment (within the accepted rules of the game). They're barely adequate at this their core function. They're downright shit at achieving all the others things people try to get them to do.

You think of the climb as a fixed, thing in itself, I don't.

I just don't see Hubble with a pad, as the same route, as Hubble without.

That's the debate here, in many ways, isn't it? Do we start to make distinctions, where a route is clearly significantly changed in grade/difficulty?

I just referenced beta, equipment  and changing holds in my description of grade function. I.e. all the reasons climbs aren't fixed!

Of course Hubble is a different route using knee pads. But 'the grade' is for what it is, not what it was.

Yes, we make distinctions. In how we discuss, describe, and imagine the climb as it was. But 'the grade' it gets, is for now. The grade is not there to capture the history of the route, we have literature, our minds and our imagination for that.

DAVETHOMAS90

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Dave Thomas is an annual climber to 1.7m, with strongly fragrant flowers
  • Posts: 1726
  • Karma: +166/-6
  • Don't die with your music still inside you ;)
#220 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 23, 2020, 11:45:07 pm
Bonjoy, thanks for clarifying that.

I don't agree with you however that "now" makes the alternative method defunct. It's decided on other things.

Personally, I prefer to think of Hubble without as being just as valid now, as climbed with a pad.

I think the discussion is about those situations where both can be considered valid, but different ways, "now".

I was trying to think of an analogy.
You know the Beta on Mecca, where you reach out left from the pocket, top of groove, instead of going to the sloper. Still thought of as the same route.
What if you could span out left slightly lower, and folk found it easier? That's the way many people would do it, but it might end up being thought of as a different route. The original method would still be valid now, especially if the new way was given 8b and not b+.

Sorry, I just don't think the question of what a route "IS" is as easy to define as you think.

Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
#221 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 24, 2020, 12:07:28 am
There are plenty of scenarios where some different beta, or variation in line stretch the boundary of what a route is. On these marginal cases there isn't always a clear answer. One man's alternative beta is another man's separate route. Bouldering has much more latitude for designating minor differences as separate entities.
However, especially on routes, using or not using accepted equipment does not qualify something as a separate entity.

kingholmesy

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 564
  • Karma: +47/-0
#222 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 24, 2020, 12:59:49 am
Oh, for the simple days of homemade kneepads that were deliberately designed to be ineffective. ;)

Fuck me, feels like yesterday that thread.

Are we really at 9 pages worth of talking about knee pads and grades??

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#223 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 24, 2020, 09:53:50 am
Hi DT,

I'm still not sure I understand what
Saying I'd prefer it if it wasn't graded for pads (the result), is not the same as saying I'd prefer if it was graded for "an ascent without pads".
really means. Or how "I'd prefer it if routes didn't get given "current easiest grade" with a knee pad." is different from
your stated preference for GA to be graded for ascent without a kneepad
which you said was a mischaracterisation of your position. I'm sure this makes sense in your head, but I don't get it.


We think that grades apply to routes far more than they really do.
I'm very much with Bonjoy on thinking that grades should apply to routes, not ascents. Otherwise... Brad Pit = 7B+ in good conditions, 7C if above 15C and humidity >80%, 7C+ if >35C and huidity >90%, 8A if you had too much beer the night before and are stressed at work, add +2 grades for every week of your life where you worked a >50hr week or to account for eating too much ice cream on 3rd November 1994. Don't get grades confused with how impressive an ascent is. It would be FAR more impressive for a blind man with no arms to climb E2 than for me to climb 9a, but grades are not a useful way to measure "impressiveness", they're a (mediocre) way of comparing the difficulty of climbing one piece of rock to another, for a roughly average climber, and they don't even do well at that.

You think of the climb as a fixed, thing in itself, I don't.
Actually I see it as the exact opposite of this - you want to preserve each sequence, each variation, each ascent as a route in its own right. I (and most others) view a route as something that can change - holds break, holds get bigger, new methods get found etc.. sometimes these are "off route" (walking round the back will never count as doing Parthian Shot), other times we just accept that a new easier method got found. And yes, sometimes it's borderline (e.g. a jug slightly off to the side of a route - how far away is "legit"? community consensus decides usually*).


But anyway, we're back to where we were 15 years ago - you can define an eliminate without knees (or without pads - you'll have to be specific) if you want to, you can define 2 different versions of Mecca if you want to, you can say that you can only use the exact same beta as the FA if you want to, but most rock climbers enjoy climbing things in a non-eliminate way because working out beta is part of the fun of rock climbing, so most people will climb the non-eliminate version. I've always said I'm happy to rename everything in the cave e.g. Director's Cut - 8B, eliminate, no stars.  Direct-a-slut - 8A+, non elim, three stars. I'm sure we can also have Hubble - 9a, Too Rubbered For Ben Moon - 8c+/9a (R knee only), Too Scrunched for Lanky Fuckers With Long Shins - 8c+/9a (L knee only), What The Fuck Am I Doing With My Life - 8c+/9a (uses LH pinky on 3rd hold unlike the FA). God help the guidebook writter. Or, people who want to do it the historic way just do that for fun, but we stick with the vaguely workable way of having one name and grade applied to ways up bits of rock, because anything else is unmanageable (or, at a push, 2 grades - 1 with and 1 without pads, like the Parisella's guide, but I think this will be niche on boulders and won't happen on routes - the ship has sailed in most areas)

*example - Battle Cat in Frankenjura was originally done with a quite strict/eliminate line. It has also been done using a jug out left and a no-hand in a crack out right at 2 different point. Now the way that most people climbs it uses the jug (it feels contrived not to use it, given how the holds work) but not the other rest (it feels contrived to use it, and like you're traversing off route to get to it).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 10:17:56 am by abarro81 »

DAVETHOMAS90

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Dave Thomas is an annual climber to 1.7m, with strongly fragrant flowers
  • Posts: 1726
  • Karma: +166/-6
  • Don't die with your music still inside you ;)
#224 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 24, 2020, 01:26:25 pm
Barrows, that's a very long post to take and use my points out of context.

You're making some remarkable - and incorrect - presumptions about what I think.

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.


Your position has always been that climbing without pads/knee bars is eliminate. Is that a reasonable assumption on my part? Not everyone sees it that way.

I use knee bars, but only occasionally, because I don't wear knee pads.

No one, and certainly not me, is suggesting giving a different grade for each and every variation.

However, where they are very clear, and quite workable, then why not?

Also, listing Hubble without pad would seem important from a historical perspective. It's more representative.

We live in, and share, a descriptive world. Allowing and using different descriptions of the same "thing" isn't a very difficult thing to accommodate. This is no different to giving certain problems a bouldering grade for mats, and the traditional E-grade.

You don't have to give a grade for wearing EBs, summer sun, no cams, only 1 mat, 10 mats etc to make it workable.

My earlier points are very simply that I'd prefer it if routes weren't getting re-graded for "new easier way" with pads, because it's not a style I want to adopt. I'm sure there are other people that feel the same. I'm sure there'll be examples of where that'll happen. That's a personal preference about climbing style, it's not a position on how routes should be graded.

Again, same with bouldering mats. I'd prefer it if routes weren't getting a re-grade as boulders above mats - in other words why they're being re-graded - because I'd generally prefer to retain the earlier style. There are plenty of problems however, that I would prefer the bouldering grade for.

This comes back to my other point, that the route is not some "thing in itself", but an encounter which we describe in lots of different ways. Deciding which/what descriptions to use is why we discuss things.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal