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Topic slit Hubble with kneepad (Read 51330 times)

Rob F

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#150 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 19, 2020, 10:07:01 pm
Highly impressive bout of climbing.

The non kneebar crowd can think of it as a multi-pitch route...

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#151 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:53:46 am
getting a blow from a fan whilst in a kneebar, seen it all now.

This sounds like a pr0no for Barrows "American gets a blow from a fan while in double kneebar"

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#152 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 03:28:36 pm
Thread of the year for me  :hug:

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#153 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 06:24:25 pm
Let's hope we dont have to try and work out how hard this is with/without knees

Couldn't be arsed reading the whole thread, but I did watch Mitbo doing Ali Hulk for comparison here:



I like DG, but how he can claim 9b for this (front and centre, in the title of his video) given how many times he takes both hands off for a rest is beyond me. Surely they're grades apart.

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#154 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 08:57:06 pm
Let's hope we dont have to try and work out how hard this is with/without knees

Couldn't be arsed reading the whole thread, but I did watch Mitbo doing Ali Hulk for comparison here:



I like DG, but how he can claim 9b for this (front and centre, in the title of his video) given how many times he takes both hands off for a rest is beyond me. Surely they're grades apart.

What’s the no hands rest limit for a 9b?

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#155 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 09:15:30 pm

I like DG, but how he can claim 9b for this (front and centre, in the title of his video) given how many times he takes both hands off for a rest is beyond me. Surely they're grades apart.

I feel like this is something that happens all the time, people see a kneebar and instantly dismiss the climb as massively easier or just piss full stop, on good kneebars that miss out hard moves this is sometimes the case, but it's damn sure often not the case too. Isla de Encanta for example, I believe Barrows has tried that kneebar and i'd guess will attest to how hard it is. All those kneebars on Pilgrimage would have probably taken me (a kneebar novice) an eternity to learn and get right. Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

I'm not saying it is 9b still, I couldn't tell you if it is, but perhaps for that reason you shouldn't say it's easier than that grade and we should just take one of the worlds most experienced climbers at his word.

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#156 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 09:19:43 pm
However it’s a bit Tortoise and the Hare compared to the other guys ascent.

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#157 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:10:32 pm
Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

No opinion on the grade of Ali Hulk but just to point out that a sport grade is supposed to be *entirely* about physical difficulty and nothing else.

(and that DG vid is the most bizarre climbing footage I think I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty from Doylo's cutting room floor).

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#158 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:25:59 pm
I wish they’d stuck with the female narrator in that video, and when he got to the top she’d announced, “You’re my wife now Dave”.

I’d also like to confirm that London Climber will be collaborating on a limited edition collection of oak bark-tanned leather knee pads, with cast brass buckles.

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#159 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:31:24 pm
Is it just me or did they finish different?

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#160 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:35:23 pm
I haven’t watched - did the upside down fan blowing have a “happy ending”?

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#161 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:38:45 pm
I wish they’d stuck with the female narrator in that video, and when he got to the top she’d announced, “You’re my wife now Dave”.

I’d also like to confirm that London Climber will be collaborating on a limited edition collection of oak bark-tanned leather knee pads, with cast brass buckles.

Presumably you can get them monogrammed in gold leaf and the leather will be ethically sourced?

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#162 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:50:10 pm


Check the rope dab at 4:19. He'll get it for sure. Kneepad might help next time?

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#163 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:51:30 pm
Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

No opinion on the grade of Ali Hulk but just to point out that a sport grade is supposed to be *entirely* about physical difficulty and nothing else.

(and that DG vid is the most bizarre climbing footage I think I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty from Doylo's cutting room floor).

Is that how it works in the real world though? Certainly isn't on boulders, things with shite footholds or marginal heel hooks get bigger grades because they are technically more difficult. I assumed that in today's world of sport climbing these things would be factored in. To take it to the extreme, surely some of Meltdown or other slab like sport routes grades come from the fact that the feet are terrible and they are technically difficult, no?

Regardless i'd wager this isn't a path just cause Dave manages to hang off his knees a few times.

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#164 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:52:08 pm
Is it just me or did they finish different?
No, they finish differently. Midtbø is doing no2 below, Graham no1.
Code: [Select]
1:       Ali Hulk (extension total sit start)    9b
2:            Ali Hulk (sitstart + extension)    9b
3: Ali Hulk (fin de extension total sitstart)   9a+
4:                       Ali Hulk (extension)   9a+
5:                 Ali Hulk (extension total)   9a+
6:                        Ali Hulk (sitstart)   9a+

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#165 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 10:58:08 pm
Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

No opinion on the grade of Ali Hulk but just to point out that a sport grade is supposed to be *entirely* about physical difficulty and nothing else.

(and that DG vid is the most bizarre climbing footage I think I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty from Doylo's cutting room floor).

Is that how it works in the real world though? Certainly isn't on boulders, things with shite footholds or marginal heel hooks get bigger grades because they are technically more difficult. I assumed that in today's world of sport climbing these things would be factored in. To take it to the extreme, surely some of Meltdown or other slab like sport routes grades come from the fact that the feet are terrible and they are technically difficult, no?

Regardless i'd wager this isn't a path just cause Dave manages to hang off his knees a few times.

I think when Pete says "physical difficulty" then that includes all that technique faff too. The bits that aren't factored into the number are things like it being a long walk in or tricky to find in nick or tricky to work the beta. They might affect the difficulty of doing the route, but not the number.

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#166 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 20, 2020, 11:20:22 pm
Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

No opinion on the grade of Ali Hulk but just to point out that a sport grade is supposed to be *entirely* about physical difficulty and nothing else.

(and that DG vid is the most bizarre climbing footage I think I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty from Doylo's cutting room floor).

Is that how it works in the real world though? Certainly isn't on boulders, things with shite footholds or marginal heel hooks get bigger grades because they are technically more difficult. I assumed that in today's world of sport climbing these things would be factored in. To take it to the extreme, surely some of Meltdown or other slab like sport routes grades come from the fact that the feet are terrible and they are technically difficult, no?

Regardless i'd wager this isn't a path just cause Dave manages to hang off his knees a few times.

I think when Pete says "physical difficulty" then that includes all that technique faff too. The bits that aren't factored into the number are things like it being a long walk in or tricky to find in nick or tricky to work the beta. They might affect the difficulty of doing the route, but not the number.

Ah fair, I see. I totally get that. Remembering beta ain't part of the grading. I kind of put that line amongst text it wasn't relevant to i guess.

I just often see bits of climbing dimissed as far easier just because of a kneebar or a new method or something, and find it hard to work out how people know from watching a vid. So long as the climber is honest about how hard they felt it was it should be fairly easy to see how much it changes the climb if at all.

It's like when someone says Ned has been and 'broke' something with a heel hook, I'd wager if they went and tried said heel hook they'd leave with their tail between their legs, in my experience they are usually shit and nearly impossible. Same for Barrows and the kneebars. People just dismiss them as piss, it's very often not the case. Both are often technically super hard as it's skills they've taken years to acquire and worked at for along time.

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#167 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 21, 2020, 06:20:30 am
Be like Malc, "stey opon"

Any of the kneebar dab police able to pass comment on the latter portion of this clip???


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#168 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 21, 2020, 07:48:10 am

I like DG, but how he can claim 9b for this (front and centre, in the title of his video) given how many times he takes both hands off for a rest is beyond me. Surely they're grades apart.

I feel like this is something that happens all the time, people see a kneebar and instantly dismiss the climb as massively easier or just piss full stop, on good kneebars that miss out hard moves this is sometimes the case, but it's damn sure often not the case too. Isla de Encanta for example, I believe Barrows has tried that kneebar and i'd guess will attest to how hard it is. All those kneebars on Pilgrimage would have probably taken me (a kneebar novice) an eternity to learn and get right. Look how much extra beta Dave has to learn and remember on his ascent, grading isn't solely about physical difficulty. Also consider his core was probably shot after those 'rests'.

I'm not saying it is 9b still, I couldn't tell you if it is, but perhaps for that reason you shouldn't say it's easier than that grade and we should just take one of the worlds most experienced climbers at his word.

I dunno Jack. I'm happy to speculate from my armchair about shit I'll never climb. I'd say 50 knees on a route probably make it easier.

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#169 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 21, 2020, 08:06:20 am
As a weak lank I'm always on the hunt for a knee. Love the style. Barrows on Pilgrimage is amazing to watch. I don't understand the point about some knees being technical. Surely most knees make things at least marginally easier, or doable. That's why we use them.

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#170 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 21, 2020, 08:52:33 am
Isla de Encanta for example, I believe Barrows has tried that kneebar
I haven't actually, but I've certainly found knees that are very technically challenging - often so hard that it becomes better for me not to use them, though it seemed like someone with 10% more skill would get it to work.. There are also very easy ones. Same as heels, as you say. I think I recall a conversation with Mason after he'd been in the US and climbed with DG where he was very impressed by DG's knee skills.

I don't understand the point about some knees being technical. Surely most knees make things at least marginally easier, or doable.
The knees that you use make things easier, otherwise you wouldn't use them. Same as heels. I'm not entirely sure what you don't understand about Jack's post? His point was that, like Ned can use heels that others struggle to get to work, there are times when a knee makes it easier for someone good at knees but when many/some people won't have the requisite technical ability on that style of move to make it work. (I've definitely done, for example, 7B boulders with a 7B+ sequence due to a lack of skills with my heels before)

Anyway, despite my firm agreeent with Jack about armchair downgrading being dumb, Jose Luis Palao posted this on insta after doing various of the Ali Baba links, so it seems like there may be downgrades coming:
La cueva "Ali baba" No estamos escalando las mísmas vias o boulders que hace cerca 15 años hizo sus primeras ascensiónes @dani_andrada_climb ,
Aún teniendo una nueva extensión,(extensión total) y sea en teoría más dura..., aparecen nuevas presas,nuevos métodos, nuevos recursos con las "RODILLERAS" , lo que la ha convertido en un estilo de escalada más asequible.

Para mí esto es más importante que un número y una letra es seguir con la filosofía que yo aprendí en mis inicios, que creo que se está perdiendo no siempre más es más, hay que aceptar que esto no es lo que era con sus pros y sus contras, pero realmente da que pensar,... yo no quiero contribuir a esta manera de entender la escalada, por eso comparto esta opinión.


which Google translates as
The cave "Ali baba" We are not climbing the same routes or boulders that about 15 years ago made his first ascents @dani_andrada_climb,
Even having a new extension, (total extension) and it is in theory more difficult ..., new holds, new methods, new resources with the "KNEE PADS" appear, which has made it a more affordable climbing style.

For me this is more important than a number and a letter is to continue with the philosophy that I learned in my beginnings, which I think is being lost not always more is more, we must accept that this is not what it was with its pros and its cons, but it really gives food for thought, ... I don't want to contribute to this way of understanding climbing, that's why I share this opinion.

If anyone can do a better translation, but I assume he's saying that it all needs a downgrade for the new beta (he did them with pads), and people shouldn't kid themselves.

Andrada's comment in reply::
Bueno primo en verdad da igual lo que se hizo Haze años, lo importante es lo que se hace ahora vivir el presente , al final cada uno sabe lo que hace y el ego mata al ser humano ya lo sabes, las rodilleras es una evolución y está claro que jode las vías de antes del 2015 pero bueno , es lo qe ay , cada momento tiene su historia y las vías cambian como la vida, se rompen presas crecen presas ... Tu ya sabes al final da igual , más daño hace el Instagram y nadie se queja por qué ay todos somos muy guay ssss , postura para que el mundo lo vea...

Well, cousin, it really doesn't matter what Haze was done years ago, the important thing is what one does now live in the present, in the end everyone knows what they are doing and the ego kills the human being, you know, knee pads is an evolution and It is clear that it fucks the tracks before 2015 but hey, that's what it is, every moment has its history and the tracks change like life, damsholds break, damsholds grow ... You already know in the end it does not matter, more damage does Instagram and nobody complains why oh we are all very cool ssss, position for the world to see ...

Which I read as "smash on with the knees, routes change, who cares, let's downgrade the fuckers" (as an aside, people were definitely climbing with rubber kneepads in 2011 when I was in Rodellar, so his chronology may involve some artistic license)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 09:08:54 am by abarro81 »

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#171 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 21, 2020, 09:07:26 am
I think when Pete says "physical difficulty" then that includes all that technique faff too. The bits that aren't factored into the number are things like it being a long walk in or tricky to find in nick or tricky to work the beta. They might affect the difficulty of doing the route, but not the number.

In reality, route grades tend to broadly focus on the physical/technical difficulty, but they do often give "bonus points" for some aspects of "how hard is it to do" as well as "how hard is it". On the whole, I think people are quite good at separating out things like walk-ins and wetness from their views on difficulty, but less so things like whether the route is hard to work and find beta for. I get the impression that highball grades often also work a little bit like this (highballs being physically a little easier for the grade), though I'm less experienced there.

Example 1: take a short bouldery 8b. Now instead of starting off the floor, make it start after a 25m 7a to a no-hander on a ledge. The route is no harder physically (you can rest to zero on the ledge), but is now a lot harder to do if near your limit. If only because you now get 4 redpoints per day when you fall off move 3 of the boulder, rather than 40 repoints per day. In my experience this type of route might get a little "bump", and be given more like 8b+.
Example 2: Mandela - 8a climbing in an 8a+ position
Example 3: things in roofs with bolts that are far apart making refining perfect beta almost impossible

I appreciate that this may not be how sport grades are "supposed" to work, but in the real world people just grade things on roughly how hard they feel, which ends up being a combination of "how hard is it" and "how hard is it to do" (while, imperfectly, trying to factor out the obvious stuff like wetness and walk-ins)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 09:12:37 am by abarro81 »

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#172 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 21, 2020, 09:09:34 am
Barrows on Pilgrimage is amazing to watch. .

Bloody pervert.

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#173 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 21, 2020, 09:27:48 am
"smash on with the knees, routes change, who cares, let's downgrade the fuckers"

Thats got to go on a T Shirt :D

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#174 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 21, 2020, 09:28:54 am
UKB did something weird when I edited my post slightly and I ended up with a new post I can't get rid of...

 

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