[DAVETHOMAS90]

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.


To clarify, that is the distinction I'm trying to make.

However, "routes" are graded for what constitutes an ascent, and by consensus, we use a very small selection of all the descriptions available.

[Bonjoy]

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.

I don't think you've made a convincing case for this at all.
Stand at the bottom of Master's Edge and tell me it doesn't really exist in a fixed thing-in-itself sense. Of course it does, unless you're going so far down the rabbit hole that literally nothing exists as a thing in itself. It exists as a piece of rock, it exists as a concept of getting from A to B within the rules of a game. The confluence of these two things consitutes 'the route' and is every bit as tangible and well defined a thing as any human artifact.
That is fundamental to the appeal of climbing. All our differing personal experiences of a climb are anchored to the essential conceptual solidity of the climb itself. This is why strong inescapable lines are more satisfying.

[Doylo]

I’m too stupid to understand the recent posts.

[spidermonkey09]

I’m too stupid to understand the recent posts.

I've tried my best but it's a bit metaphysical for me. Dave is clearly sincere in his views but they are incredibly niche and not shared by anyone else as far as I can see.

That said its interesting discussing it.

[gme]

I’m too stupid to understand the recent posts.

Join the club.

Can someone just let me know when it’s agreed that Hubble should be back down to 8c+ as it’s now easier.

[Falling Down]

Thomas, D. (2020) "Hubble, a thing in itself?: A phenomenological hermeneutic perspective on contemporary hard rock climbing". London Climber No. 2, Yossarian Publications, Shoreditch.

[Doylo]

I’m too stupid to understand the recent posts.

Join the club.

Can someone just let me know when it’s agreed that Hubble should be back down to 8c+ as it’s now easier.

Only a tiny weenie bit easier apparently 

[Doylo]

I think a Dave Thomas / Johnny Dawes podcast would be a good listen .

[Doylo]

I think a Dave Thomas / Johnny Dawes podcast would be a good listen .

As long as they don’t use the word ‘segue’. Fuckin hate that word .

[mrjonathanr]

Wouldn't a Buddhist say you can never climb the same route twice? I think Dave's on about that sort of route.

Satisfyingly for Bonjoy, Master's would definitely create the Buddhist sound of one hand slapping.

[Fiend]

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.

He's right about this though. The route is more than the line up the rock. It has history, it has stories, it has character, it has quality of movement (which is not just where the holds are, but the fact that us humans are climbing it), it has a line of chalked holds, it has a relationship to other routes and other standards, it has a reputation, an emotional impact.

Director's Cut (or whatever the rubble in the cave that barrows halved the grade of is) with a bunch of kneebars is the same route, but it's not the same route - otherwise we wouldn't have Doylo sobbing into his pumpkin spiced latte. Hubble with a kneebar is the same lump of rock, but it's not the same route as dreadlocked Ben gurning up a line of English 7b underclings.

Semantics, abusing the definition of the term "route", nebulous meanings and whatever, DT90 still has a good point that there's a lot more to the things we climb than the, errr, things we climb.

[Doylo]

It’s not DC I was sobbing about , that’s basically a route anyway. It was the murder of the 4 move power testpiece 

[Rob F]

Anyways, enough about kneepads- where can I get one of those high powered electric fans???

Could do with a smallish one that I can velcro onto the side of my leg. Would like it to be able to blow away the chalk dust so less likely to fall out of all of those lovely hands off rests...

[Bonjoy]

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.

He's right about this though. The route is more than the line up the rock. It has history, it has stories, it has character, it has quality of movement (which is not just where the holds are, but the fact that us humans are climbing it), it has a line of chalked holds, it has a relationship to other routes and other standards, it has a reputation, an emotional impact.

Director's Cut (or whatever the rubble in the cave that barrows halved the grade of is) with a bunch of kneebars is the same route, but it's not the same route - otherwise we wouldn't have Doylo sobbing into his pumpkin spiced latte. Hubble with a kneebar is the same lump of rock, but it's not the same route as dreadlocked Ben gurning up a line of English 7b underclings.

Semantics, abusing the definition of the term "route", nebulous meanings and whatever, DT90 still has a good point that there's a lot more to the things we climb than the, errr, things we climb.

Yes but nobody is disagreeing with any of that, just that it has anything much to do with the grade. And the idea that it means the route isn't a clearly definable thing.

[Will Hunt]

For God's sake, everyone. Can't you see the man's grieving? Grieving for a time when Ben was King of the Tor, the nights in the Broady were long, and Hubble was a hard route.
Give him a chance to mourn in peace.

[petejh]

Wouldn't a Buddhist say you can never climb the same route twice? I think Dave's on about that sort of route.

Satisfyingly for Bonjoy, Master's would definitely create the Buddhist sound of one hand slapping.

Or the sound of one knee cracking..

If Ondra's bouldering on his own in the forest and falls, does he make a sound....

[shark]

and Hubble was a hard route

So fucking easy that the best are strapping on kneepads 30 years on

[teestub]

Obviously no ethical thought leaders have repeated it recently. Hang on wait did Megos use a pad, or is he in fact an ethical thought leader?!

[shark]

did Megos use a pad, or is he in fact an ethical thought leader?!

I believe he is

[Rob F]

Slippery slope: starts off with kneepads, won't be long before we're seeing exoskeletons at the Tor...

[Will Hunt]

and Hubble was a hard route

So fucking easy that the best are strapping on kneepads 30 years on

Hubble wouldn't even get a bloke a mention in the UKB "who's climbed a hard thing recently" thread. If it's a 9 then it just barely scrapes in. It's only hard in a regional, local sense.

Your post also miss the point that using a kneepad on Hubble doesn't mean that you couldn't do it without a kneepad.

[shark]

Your post also miss the point that using a kneepad on Hubble doesn't mean that you couldn't do it without a kneepad.

  is such a thing possible? Must be hard doing it that way

[Will Hunt]

I'm sorry for your loss.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I'm not being quite as mystical as people think 

The rock doesn't define the route, although the route climbs an approximate area of rock.

The route exists in how we talk and think about it. What it "means".

There's a photo of Ron climbing Revelations, but his method at the start comes in from the left, not via the pocket/pinch.

I think most people have a notion of what Revelations means, and Ron isn't climbing that route.

In my view, same with Hubble with a pad. Just consider the different ways, different routes. In this instance, I don't see much of a problem.

However, I think something of the great significance of Ben's ascent of Hubble would get lost, if we just grade it for the way that more people are trying it currently.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I am not saying that "the grade is for the ascent and not the route", but that what we call "the route" doesn't really exist in some fixed, thing-in-itself sense.

I don't think you've made a convincing case for this at all.
Stand at the bottom of Master's Edge and tell me it doesn't really exist in a fixed thing-in-itself sense. Of course it does, unless you're going so far down the rabbit hole that literally nothing exists as a thing in itself. It exists as a piece of rock, it exists as a concept of getting from A to B within the rules of a game. The confluence of these two things consitutes 'the route' and is every bit as tangible and well defined a thing as any human artifact.
That is fundamental to the appeal of climbing. All our differing personal experiences of a climb are anchored to the essential conceptual solidity of the climb itself. This is why strong inescapable lines are more satisfying.

Thanks for bearing with me Bonjoy.

I'd suggest that what you refer to as "conceptual solidity" is much more an act of faith, than it is "real".

Despite really strong associations, what we see is a whole set of meanings. The "route" is contingent on what we've learned to see.

Think of "the line" of Master's Edge, as a sign. When you look at it, you do so with all the unconscious meanings and interpretations you've learned to associate with it, and that is what often feels "solid" and "real".

The route is contingent and not fixed. What it is contingent upon, is open to debate.

We all know of great lines - I'm thinking Cock o' the Rock at Stanage - opposite the photo of you on Central Buttress Direct, in the guide:

"A lovely piece of rock, but it's lack of proper starting holds means that the experience doesn't quite live up to the feature, and the grade will vary greatly depending on the climber's height."

I think we're in agreement in lots of ways, except in that the route exists as an interpretation.

Here's a young lad's interpretation of Master's Edge: 





Dave Pegg looking on.

.. Where do you draw the line?

Edit:
Just thinking of The Groove at Cratcliffe - which disappointingly, isn't the groove at Cratcliffe