As seperate point re failing in exercises that isnt always the way to go in gaining strength. I'm experimenting with Lopez's two handed weighted hangs where the recommendation is that you do 3 reps (with 3 mins rest between reps) with resistance at a level that you hang for 10secs at a level where you expect to fail at 13 secs.
As seperate point re failing in exercises that isnt always the way to go in gaining strength. I'm experimenting with Lopez's two handed weighted hangs where the recommendation is that you do 3 reps (with 3 mins rest between reps) with resistance at a level that you hang for 10secs at a level where you expect to fail at 13 secs.
would be interested in that.
I'd like to know your progresses and impressions. I read an entry on her blog, about bigger gains being obtained when training on bigger holds than on micro crimps.
I'm waiting on the final version of a portable fingerboard Ive been developing with Probes (the Wedge) over the last 8 months so will properly benchmark and train on that when it arrives.
I'm waiting on the final version of a portable fingerboard Ive been developing with Probes (the Wedge) over the last 8 months so will properly benchmark and train on that when it arrives.
Hmmm, sounds interesting, any more info you can say about this?
Downside of the 10s x 3 max hang or BM type repeaters for building strength is that ultimately you want to be able to bone down on a one rep max holds to send that one, solitary PB boulder that you have set yourself, so mixing some into your training has to be good too.
http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Finger%20training (http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Finger%20training)
As seperate point re failing in exercises that isnt always the way to go in gaining strength. I'm experimenting with Lopez's two handed weighted hangs where the recommendation is that you do 3 reps (with 3 mins rest between reps) with resistance at a level that you hang for 10secs at a level where you expect to fail at 13 secs.
would be interested in that.
I'd like to know your progresses and impressions. I read an entry on her blog, about bigger gains being obtained when training on bigger holds than on micro crimps.
Even weight lifters whose only aim is to improve single rep max will mostly be doing sets of sub maximal lifts (up to 6, perhaps?) to get stronger. That sixish number is what you would be doing for repeaters too, so I would assume that repeaters primarily build strength and are not, in fact, very power endurancy (whatever power endurance might mean) as is assumed by some people.
(those resin edges look horrific to train on).:agree:
Shark, do you have the poster that accompanies the board?
http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Finger%20training (http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Finger%20training)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_-pICUpgV-E/TwrJTWCO9RI/AAAAAAAAB6s/9UoujXIcT_4/s1600/deformacion+yema+en+regleta+8+mm.jpg)
:o
I can see a business opportunity filling fingertips with d3o...
You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.
You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.Fair dos, didn't really have the time.Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commments
It's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.
If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.
especially it being summer and horrible and humid.Didn't know you were in Italy!
Could you share some info about how many sets of the 3 reps you do
Sasquatch I'm very interested in this training program, especially as the gains seem to be quite significant. Could you share some info about how many sets of the 3 reps you do and how many times per week do you do this session. Do you find you can do it on a day where you might also climb? Particularly interested to overcome skin issues especially it being summer and horrible and humid.So here's the details of exactly the workouts I've been doing. I dont' have one of Mrs. Lopez's boards, so I'm doing it based on the general concept that you can find on her blog and on a wooden 18mm edge. Before starting the program, She has a couple of basic requirements:
Thanks
You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.Fair dos, didn't really have the time.Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commments
It's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.
If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.
The point Eva was making that training on small holds has certain limitations because of skin and conditions and having the right shaped fingers.
I'm not sure what point you are making but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that
CorrectAnd will you use added weight on the smaller hold?
No added weight on the smaller hold. I'm not sure how small yet as I haven't tested it yet. I'll be testing in a week and a half and will let you know. The basic concept will be the same, two workouts a week, same warm up, progressive sets will be progressively smaller holds instead of adding weight, and main sets will be 10sec hang on a hold I wil fail on at 13sec. I expect my skin will suffer alot more than the current set-up.CorrectAnd will you use added weight on the smaller hold?
How smaller?
You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.Fair dos, didn't really have the time.Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commments
It's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.
If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.
The point Eva was making that training on small holds has certain limitations because of skin and conditions and having the right shaped fingers.
I'm not sure what point you are making but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that
It may help so long as your half-crimping ;)
That looks nice, if a wee bit sharp
Each exercise and prehension trains mostly itself and is not highly transferrable to other exercises and prehensions.
Each exercise and prehension trains mostly itself and is not highly transferrable to other exercises and prehensions.
I spent years crimping and also pulling very small hold with my fingers pointing down (almost with the fingernails), and I thought I was strong. And I was, but only on that specific grip (mostly was just pain toletance to be honest).
One day I tried to half crimp, obviously without using the thumb, and my performance dropped by 2/3.
Very frustrating and very crucial day.
This is why I still prefer to train many different prehensions on the BM, even though I rarely climb on monos or the likes.
This sounds like an ideal training plan, i do less training and get more gains, sounds too good to be true. :-\
Running is an interesting example. If you look at classic 5-10K training, you build easy/steady volume up until you're consistantly running 50-70 miles per week, then add a small amount of "fast running". But in a given week, your "high intensity running" only accounts for about 5% of your total running. How many climbers do you know who do that? A few of the pros, but that's about it....
As you get to shorter and shorter running distances, you see a higher percentage of "high intensity" at maybe 10-15%, but still nothing like what you see climbers doing.
You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.Fair dos, didn't really have the time.Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commments
It's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.
If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.
The point Eva was making that training on small holds has certain limitations because of skin and conditions and having the right shaped fingers.
I'm not sure what point you are making but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that
my non-point was that you can train on small holds if you're not attempting to drag them, which has very little to do with shape of fingers. if, for instance when you crimp, you can have all of your tips beautifully lined up on a small edge, that open-handed you could not, then the only reason that you would not be able to hold it half-crimped would be down to weakness, nothing else, just weakness, and that is easily addressed
Running is an interesting example. If you look at classic 5-10K training, you build easy/steady volume up until you're consistantly running 50-70 miles per week, then add a small amount of "fast running". But in a given week, your "high intensity running" only accounts for about 5% of your total running. How many climbers do you know who do that? A few of the pros, but that's about it....
As you get to shorter and shorter running distances, you see a higher percentage of "high intensity" at maybe 10-15%, but still nothing like what you see climbers doing.
Lots of (most?) climbers do it. All the ones who are happily out cruising easy trad, with the occasional shot at something a bit harder. Ok, I'm exaggerating, but seriously if doing lots of easy mileage worked for climbing, then the top climbers would be different people. I have a couple of friends who are training for big walls - they've been quite disciplined about doing sets of 45min non stop climbing at lower levels, gradually building up to around f7a sport climbing. I'll let you know if they start sprinting up 8C's!
Running's probably not a great analogy. Legs are well equipped to carry bodyweight, but fingers are slightly smaller! The big difficulty with climbing isn't getting stronger muscles, it's getting stronger tendons.
Sorry but you've still missed the point of the picture. The picture is to illustrate the fact that the 'shape' of the fingers, referring specifically the amount of 'pulp' as she calls it at the end of the fingers is a large determinant of the ability to hang small holds, she also quotes previous studies to this effect, and also her own study which shows that training on small edges doesn't transfer to grip strength to the same degree as training on larger edges with added weight. This is the reason she recommends training strict half crimped throughout.
You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.Fair dos, didn't really have the time.Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commments
It's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.
If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.
The point Eva was making that training on small holds has certain limitations because of skin and conditions and having the right shaped fingers.
I'm not sure what point you are making but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that
my non-point was that you can train on small holds if you're not attempting to drag them, which has very little to do with shape of fingers. if, for instance when you crimp, you can have all of your tips beautifully lined up on a small edge, that open-handed you could not, then the only reason that you would not be able to hold it half-crimped would be down to weakness, nothing else, just weakness, and that is easily addressed
Sorry but you've still missed the point of the picture. The picture is to illustrate the fact that the 'shape' of the fingers, referring specifically the amount of 'pulp' as she calls it at the end of the fingers is a large determinant of the ability to hang small holds, she also quotes previous studies to this effect, and also her own study which shows that training on small edges doesn't transfer to grip strength to the same degree as training on larger edges with added weight. This is the reason she recommends training strict half crimped throughout.
Sorry if this sounds basic but i just want to clear something up. Is this a supplementary training program that you do as well as climbing loads or do you really just need to train for 30-40 mins once every three days for 9 weeks with a whole week of rest in the middle to get really strong fingers??? If so its ideal for my busy lifestyle.
I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.
I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.
Compare that to her regime where i would only be doing 120 secs, does not add up.
Shark
That makes more sense. Its complimentary to climbing and not not a substitute for climbing. That makes more sense.
However it makes a bit of a mess of Sasquatchs training program. To me that looks like he is going to end up being good at running.
I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.
Compare that to her regime where i would only be doing 120 secs, does not add up.
Serpico
But is her training program on advocating between 30 and 50 secs (3-5 hangs) per session. Therefore not in line with your 60-120.
The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.
However it makes a bit of a mess of Sasquatchs training program. To me that looks like he is going to end up being good at running.
The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.
Serpico
But is her training program on advocating between 30 and 50 secs (3-5 hangs) per session. Therefore not in line with your 60-120.
The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.
It's a much smaller muscle mass in the forearms so I don't see an issue with less hang time, especially when you factor in the warm ups as well. If you look at the chart I linked to previously you can see that the smaller muscle groups seemed to respond with less total contraction time than the larger groups. It's not a switch where 59 secs will do nothing and 60secs will, it varies between muscle groups, as well as individuals, depending on their genetics and previous training experience. What makes the Lopez work interesting is that she's done this study with climbers who have substantial previous training history and she's seen good gains (within the context of the exercise).
The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.
I think what's important to remember is that either approach will reward you with gains. You could spend hours and hours debating the benefits of either system, but in reality this is only fruitful if you're extremely close to your potential or on very, very limited time.
I've tried both systems and had good gains from both. My training partner has tried yet another system and he's had almost equal gains from that... so there it is!
No need to rewrite the rule book quite yet IMO.
Well, that's easy! Just use Eva's method :)
I think what's important to remember is that either approach will reward you with gains. You could spend hours and hours debating the benefits of either system, but in reality this is only fruitful if you're extremely close to your potential or on very, very limited time.
I've tried both systems and had good gains from both. My training partner has tried yet another system and he's had almost equal gains from that... so there it is!
No need to rewrite the rule book quite yet IMO.
Hello - one quick question, does anyone have a clever way of attaching weights to yourself? hanging 35kg off belay loop on my harness is stressing my lower back pretty badly. any ideas gratefully received thanks.
Only 35Kg???
Are you doing them one handed or something ;)
Hello - one quick question, does anyone have a clever way of attaching weights to yourself? hanging 35kg off belay loop on my harness is stressing my lower back pretty badly. any ideas gratefully received thanks.
I use Nibile's suggestion of hanging them off the back of the harness. The weight pulls directly through the back rather than pulling the hips forward.
Wear the harness backwards if you don't have a haul loop, makes for a good look too.
Hello - one quick question, does anyone have a clever way of attaching weights to yourself? hanging 35kg off belay loop on my harness is stressing my lower back pretty badly. any ideas gratefully received thanks.
I use Nibile's suggestion of hanging them off the back of the harness. The weight pulls directly through the back rather than pulling the hips forward.
Wear the harness backwards if you don't have a haul loop, makes for a good look too.
You not got an access harness Pritch? They usuallu have a metal D on the back that will take the weight no bother.
i thought of that but it was a bit of a struggle clipping it to the front so don't know how i'd clip it to the back, tbh it's ok once i'm hanging from the edge.
Hello - one quick question, does anyone have a clever way of attaching weights to yourself? hanging 35kg off belay loop on my harness is stressing my lower back pretty badly. any ideas gratefully received thanks.
[i thought of that but it was a bit of a struggle clipping it to the front so don't know how i'd clip it to the back
[i thought of that but it was a bit of a struggle clipping it to the front so don't know how i'd clip it to the back
Clip it kneeling then stand up?
Hello - one quick question, does anyone have a clever way of attaching weights to yourself? hanging 35kg off belay loop on my harness is stressing my lower back pretty badly. any ideas gratefully received thanks.I'm doing the home based use whatever you've got version of weights, so I've got a backpack that weighs 50lbs(22kilos?), and two other bags that attach to the harness, one front, one back with 10 kilos each. I've found 10 kilos to be pretty manageable....
Hi Sasquatch, how much weight are you adding per session, I was thinking 1-2kg. If I go 2kg per session I'll get to 70% of my body weight in 4 weeks, does this sound realistic? or should I be less ambitious?I've been adding based on what I feel I can manage and tweaking as needed. I'll add the weight and drop the reps to 3-4 for the first session of the week, then do the 5 reps the second session, then add weight again. So far it seems to be working well. My progression has been:
Hi Sasquatch, how much weight are you adding per session, I was thinking 1-2kg. If I go 2kg per session I'll get to 70% of my body weight in 4 weeks, does this sound realistic? or should I be less ambitious?I've been adding based on what I feel I can manage and tweaking as needed. I'll add the weight and drop the reps to 3-4 for the first session of the week, then do the 5 reps the second session, then add weight again. So far it seems to be working well. My progression has been:
Week 1 - +32kg = 107kg total
Week 2 - +35kg
Week 3 - +40kg
Week 4 - +43kg = 119kg total
One thing I did find was to use total weight instead of added weight as a measurement. I've been trying to drop body weight as well, so my total weight shift has been greater than what i've added in weight....
I have no idea if this is normal or not, as it's my first time through the plan. Based on what she shows on her site as results from her study, this seems to be pretty normal.
Question: When doing these hangs in half-crimp position, how is the index finger positioned? Bent at the DIP joint (like an open-hand hang) or 90 degree bend at the PIP joint? My natural inclination is to have it bent at the DIP joint, and I'm stronger that way, but I have heard of people making great gains by forcing training with a bend in the PIP joint. This seems like it would translate better to crimps....
Question: When doing these hangs in half-crimp position, how is the index finger positioned? Bent at the DIP joint (like an open-hand hang) or 90 degree bend at the PIP joint? My natural inclination is to have it bent at the DIP joint, and I'm stronger that way, but I have heard of people making great gains by forcing training with a bend in the PIP joint. This seems like it would translate better to crimps....Dunno for sure, as I'm usually looking down or at the timer. I know I'm not full crimp and I know I'm not full open, but as far as the actual position of my index finger, I'm not really sure.
Dunno for sure, as I'm usually looking down or at the timer.
Dunno for sure, as I'm usually looking down or at the timer.
Some form of metronome is better than looking at a clock - you might be able to find a download for your phone. As I do my hangs by a pc I use this:
Battiti del Metronomo: 60 BPM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IzMbwD9_ME#)
Hi Sasquatch, how much weight are you adding per session, I was thinking 1-2kg. If I go 2kg per session I'll get to 70% of my body weight in 4 weeks, does this sound realistic? or should I be less ambitious?I've been adding based on what I feel I can manage and tweaking as needed. I'll add the weight and drop the reps to 3-4 for the first session of the week, then do the 5 reps the second session, then add weight again. So far it seems to be working well. My progression has been:
Week 1 - +32kg = 107kg total
Week 2 - +35kg
Week 3 - +40kg
Week 4 - +43kg = 119kg total
One thing I did find was to use total weight instead of added weight as a measurement. I've been trying to drop body weight as well, so my total weight shift has been greater than what i've added in weight....
I have no idea if this is normal or not, as it's my first time through the plan. Based on what she shows on her site as results from her study, this seems to be pretty normal.
I'v also got a 4 week period to try this out, definetly interesting, Hopefully will finally be able to deadhang a campus rung after!! Is th advice to hang with only a slight bend?
dunno........Sasquatch seems to know what he's up to?
Another side effect is that my raw pulling strength is WAYYY better than ever, even as compared to when I was training wtd pull-ups. I'm doing all my hangs at about a 30 degree elbow bend (has to do with how I mounted my board - my stupidity is apparently going to have a benefit ::) )
With respect to the larger holds (thus - as far as I can see - eliminating what rodma was talking about earlier), why half-crimped? I've done any recent hangs open, on the logic that British lime is very crimp orientated, indoor holds tend to be half-crimp-pinch orientated, and thus fingerboarding is a natural place to train open (without having to drive over to the works to get a board with pockets; probably worth mentioning at this point that my goals are generally Euro focused and thus not as crimp focused as many's).
I am always confused by what people mean by half-crimp?
Trying to keep fingers bent at 90 degrees, for me. Obviously pinky will be more stretched and open.
Can I ask (apologies if I've missed it), is there somewhere which definitively shows what she's recommending as a routine (apart from the poster nobody has)?
Trying to keep fingers bent at 90 degrees, for me. Obviously pinky will be more stretched and open.
Depends on if your index finger tends towards a "chiseling" position (Beastmaker Terminology). Can I ask (apologies if I've missed it), is there somewhere which definitively shows what she's recommending as a routine (apart from the poster nobody has)?
Do people do this locked off or straight armed? I always tend to fingerboard with varying degrees of lock but with this found it just as tricky to keep the lock as to hold on.
I'v also got a 4 week period to try this out, definetly interesting, Hopefully will finally be able to deadhang a campus rung after!! Is th advice to hang with only a slight bend?
Her article says not to bend the arms, rotate shoulders, raise legs, start to do a planche as these are all signals that either the hold is too small or you are using too much weight.
I think the campus rung is a one armed hang.I'v also got a 4 week period to try this out, definetly interesting, Hopefully will finally be able to deadhang a campus rung after!! Is th advice to hang with only a slight bend?
Whoah....
How are you able to deadhang a 15mm edge with 50% added body weight, but can't deadhang a campus rung?
Something doesn't seem right, a 15mm edge is about the size of most small campus rungs.
what percentage of your bodyweight do you think you can safely and easily hang off yourself and perform these hangs?
I'm asking because I'd imagine that if you take someone relatively steely fingered, 18mm might result in a ridiculous amount of weight being required, making practicality a limiting factor.
what percentage of your bodyweight do you think you can safely and easily hang off yourself and perform these hangs?
I'm asking because I'd imagine that if you take someone relatively steely fingered, 18mm might result in a ridiculous amount of weight being required, making practicality a limiting factor.
After testing the small hold hangs, I came to the conclusion that doing this is very tough on your skin. As my skin needs to be in shape for climbing outside, I am not doing the small holds cycle at this time. I will most likely try it again during the winter. I am however going to take a week off, then do another 4-week cycle of weighted hangs on the 18mm edge.
Speaking of small edges and trainingrectified
In an own study (López Rivera, E. and Gonzalez Badillo, JJ Article in preparation), we found correlation between the maximum ballast supported for 5 seconds on an edge of 15mm, and the smallest edge hung for 10 seconds. This result is in line with the study of Bourne et al. (2011), who found significant positive relationship between the maximum applied force in newtons on an edge of 12.8mm, and developed on 7.3 and 5.8mm.
The above results, together with the fact that in our study (Lopez, E. and Gonzalez Badillo, JJ, 2012), in the group that trained for 4 weeks with added weight on an edge of 18mm we found significant positive correlation between the results in percentage improvement in strength, and the improvement in maximum time on an edge of 11mm without ballast, as well as in the minimum size of an edge hung for 10 seconds, means:
- After training with ballast on an edge of medium size, as is 18 mm, we found improvement in hanging for longer on a smaller edge (11mm) and being able to hold smaller edges. these Improvements, as we all know, sometimes determine success in a climb.
As for practical aspects of training and climbing on very small edges
The same study of Bourne et al. (2011), the force applied to very small edges as 4.3 and 2.8mm, had no correlation with the maximum force applied at 12.5mm, but with anthropometric factors such as having a minimum volume of the pad formed between the end of the phalanx bone and the fingertip (distance between bone and fingertip).
I wasn't so much asking what she was advocating, I was asking how much weight you feel you can feasibly and safely hang from a belt, rucksack etc. before it becomes less than practical.
The same study of Bourne et al. (2011), the force applied to very small edges as 4.3 and 2.8mm, had no correlation with the maximum force applied at 12.5mm, but with anthropometric factors such as having a minimum volume of the pad formed between the end of the phalanx bone and the fingertip (distance between bone and fingertip).
Thanks.
Like Pritch I've done powerpulls in the past and although at the time I was using a very poor belt (probably the same one?), there's no way it was ever comfortable, and I'm fairly sceptical of hanging 70% additional bodyweight from a standard harness.QuoteThe same study of Bourne et al. (2011), the force applied to very small edges as 4.3 and 2.8mm, had no correlation with the maximum force applied at 12.5mm, but with anthropometric factors such as having a minimum volume of the pad formed between the end of the phalanx bone and the fingertip (distance between bone and fingertip).
i.e. it doesn't matter how much weight you can hang at 12.5mm? I'm not sure I'm willing to accept that this is anthropometric factors at work. Are we to believe Variable, Smitton and other climbers with beastly finger strength all have the same length fingertip or is it more likely that they've spent a LOT of time using small holds deadhanging even?
Its probably evident that I'm a little sceptical (more so when a product is involved), maybe mainly on practical grounds; I'm unconvinced how much room for manoeuvre there is with hold sizes and weight.
Also (and maybe I'll be shot down in flames here), I'd hazard a guess that the average finger strength here (UK) is greater than that in Spain, certainly shoulder injuries are a lot more common over there, and finger injuries less so (this is anecdotal but unsurprising if you simply compare the style of boards used). This compounds my above thoughts; her rungs are flat and large, I've seen people knock out one arm, crimped encores on the beastmaker. Where does Lopez fit in with that?
It doesn't help that I've just done a Scholar search and can't find the paper itself. Has anyone actually read it and if so a link would be much appreciated)?
Thanks.QuoteThe same study of Bourne et al. (2011), the force applied to very small edges as 4.3 and 2.8mm, had no correlation with the maximum force applied at 12.5mm, but with anthropometric factors such as having a minimum volume of the pad formed between the end of the phalanx bone and the fingertip (distance between bone and fingertip).
i.e. it doesn't matter how much weight you can hang at 12.5mm? I'm not sure I'm willing to accept that this is anthropometric factors at work. Are we to believe Variable, Smitton and other climbers with beastly finger strength all have the same length fingertip or is it more likely that they've spent a LOT of time using small holds deadhanging even?
i read it: finger strength gained on the 12.5 and 15 mm rungs will translate to smaller rungs, down to 5.8 mm, which is good news for training as the smaller holds tend to be harder on the fingers. if you want to get better on even smaller holds (4.3-2.8), you're going to have to train specifically for them and find out what kind of grip will suit your morphology (i speculate that the correlation ends there because the usual grip positions will not fit anymore, i have pretty big hands and if i weight the tips in an open crimp, the front 4 mm is soft flesh, there is now way i'm going to hold on to 4.3mm in that grip position, i'd have to go nails in, so in practice i just try another boulder problem)
Update.
On Tuesday using the same hold I did 4x10secs with 2.5kg assistance. Just now I did 4x10secs with 2.5kg added.
And I weigh more.
:bounce:
It's nice having this group of guinea pigs for this new training strategy, if only we could get a few hundred people doing it there might be a paper in it!
There's a review of the boards over on the other channel (http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=4789)by Gore which also has a bit more information on her research. It seems the boards will also be available to buy at selected walls like The Depot soon.
For UK Trade Sales then please contact Chris Gore at
The suggested retail price of the boards is £200
the dimensions are 38cm x 58cm x 15cm
what's to stop you just getting hold of a training plan and using another board? – absolutely nothing
"In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training. Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength"
One group carried out the training of the first study:
- The participants with the lower level of finger strength experienced about 47% gain in finger maximum strength (maximum weight supported for 5 seconds on 15mm) and 40% in finger strength-endurance (maximum time on 11mm).
- The scores for those with a high level of finger strength went up 9% and 22% respectively.
Other group did intermittent dead hangs without added weight:
- The ones with the lower level of initial finger maximum strength went up by 25% in maximum strength and 65% in finger strength-endurance.
- In the higher strength subgroup the improvements were around 3% and 29%.”
Quote from: UKC infomercialThe suggested retail price of the boards is £200Quote from: UKC infomercialthe dimensions are 38cm x 58cm x 15cmQuote from: UKC infomercialwhat's to stop you just getting hold of a training plan and using another board? – absolutely nothing
Can't see them being big sellers...
I'm not trying to be a twat (or have a particularly negative attitude towards this) but an article posted as an independent gear review should be that, am I missing something?
In her blog Eva says:Quote"In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training. Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength"
This seems at odds with the results cited on UKC:QuoteOne group carried out the training of the first study:
- The participants with the lower level of finger strength experienced about 47% gain in finger maximum strength (maximum weight supported for 5 seconds on 15mm) and 40% in finger strength-endurance (maximum time on 11mm).
- The scores for those with a high level of finger strength went up 9% and 22% respectively.
Other group did intermittent dead hangs without added weight:
- The ones with the lower level of initial finger maximum strength went up by 25% in maximum strength and 65% in finger strength-endurance.
- In the higher strength subgroup the improvements were around 3% and 29%.”
I assume intermittent hangs are "repeaters"
In her blog Eva says:Quote"In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training. Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength"
This seems at odds with the results cited on UKC:QuoteOne group carried out the training of the first study:
- The participants with the lower level of finger strength experienced about 47% gain in finger maximum strength (maximum weight supported for 5 seconds on 15mm) and 40% in finger strength-endurance (maximum time on 11mm).
- The scores for those with a high level of finger strength went up 9% and 22% respectively.
Other group did intermittent dead hangs without added weight:
- The ones with the lower level of initial finger maximum strength went up by 25% in maximum strength and 65% in finger strength-endurance. - In the higher strength subgroup the improvements were around 3% and 29%.”
I assume intermittent hangs are "repeaters"
I don't see it as being at odds, which bit did you mean specifically? I'm assuming that she wanted to compare strength training protocols, so the intermittent hangs/repeaters were supposed to be a strength exercise that turned out to increase strength to a degree, and endurance to a greater degree, that is to say that without the strength increase the endurance increase wouldn't have been as great. By comparison it appears she's also done 'pure' endurance exercises where the endurance increase hasn't been as great because there wasn't a strength increase, submaximal endurance being a factor of maximal strength.
I think she includes a repeater style exercise for endurance on the training poster.
I'm trying to be less of a cynic (honest) I just struggle when there's growing 'hype' which is based on a paper that isn't yet peer reviewed and available to read (I'm surely not the only one?). That doesn't mean I don't believe her findings but the process (even if it is flawed) exists for a reason.I'm honestly quite a cynic as well. You wouldn't guess from the posts, but reality is skewed on the net....
ps - Eva has been very helpful and offered to answer the questions I posed to her after requesting a copy of the paper.
A piece of wood drilled to a small reinforced sheet of ply wood. Just measure it sand a little to get a comfy rounded leading edgeand go for it.
My "Lopez" edges sit either side of my beastmaker.....
I think you should all read her written as gains in "Strength endurance" not "endurance".
A world where endurance increases (or is measured) on a 11mm rung a very weird one.
That ain't endurance by a long shot. At least, not metabolically.
How do you feel those gains have translated to your climbing?
How long have you been doing this sort of structure for sasquatch?
Not always the case, but I do feel in a position of "if I can hit it I can hold it" way more oftenThat's exactly the difference I found as well.
All local (muscular) endurance is 'strength endurance', and is generally referred to as such outside of climbing.
Isn't that exactly how Binney tests climbing endurance, with supposedly a high correlation?
Not metabolically increased but increased nonetheless.
Lopez herself doesn't advocate just strength training, and she points out that finger strength is only (she estimates) 20-30% of the picture.
1. Yes, but the term in this case is misleading as everyone will think that their endurance will increase in their climbing. It won't.
2. No, he tests at a much lower force and the muscle is allowed to relax intermittently, hence it's better correlated to endurance (or aerobic capacity if you prefer that).
And this after just 3 sessions in 9 days!
I'm interested to see if some gains are twmporary due to reduced volume pushing people towards a bit of a peak
In my research, we observed that finger strength and endurance improved a lot after 4 weeks, but only a bit more in week 10, 2 weeks after the end of training in week 8; this shows us the importance of rest and/or tapering in strength training.
However, in week 12, or 4 weeks later the last deadhang session, all gains in finger strength and endurance were lost.
Yup, I love a big claim. I doubt anyone out there will improve their endurance by doing ~5 x 10sec of max hangs. I suppose it depends on your definition of endurance though. I'd like to see you argue for it ;)
Dave's edge is quite a bit more than 11mm. It's most definitely not close maximal force, which is my point. And it most definitely has rests.
And this after just 3 sessions in 9 days!
I and others have seen rapid gains, but there's no way such quick gains are muscular, it's even very quick for neural gains. It's going to be more interesting to see what happens after 2 or 3 cycles of the programme, I'm betting there's going to be some plateauing and subsequent adjustment needed.
Chatting with Zippy he made the point that these sort of early big gains can only be neural. This suggests that continued gains will require some form of complementary training to stimulate forearm hypertrophy.
I've no idea how big without checking Dave's or Eva's edges are, you were making a point about endurance testing not being done on a wooden edge, I was making the point that that's exactly what Binney does.
Feet on the edge, or the edge has feet?
Chatting with Zippy he made the point that these sort of early big gains can only be neural. This suggests that continued gains will require some form of complementary training to stimulate forearm hypertrophy.
Firstly they're not max hangs, but that's beside the point. That sort of duration of isometric tension has a well researched history of increasing maximum strength, if you increase maximal strength you increase submaximal endurance by increasing strength headroom. Good review with refs here. (http://www.coachesinfo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=213:strength-maximumstrength&catid=68:strength-generalarticles&Itemid=129)
I've no idea how big without checking Dave's or Eva's edges are, you were making a point about endurance testing not being done on a wooden edge, I was making the point that that's exactly what Binney does.
Why would they have to be only neural? I would assume that there is a component of both muscle strength gain and neural improvement.
Why would they have to be only neural? I would assume that there is a component of both muscle strength gain and neural improvement.
Because of the time scale involved, you're looking at physical gains after about 4 weeks. It may be that part of these early big gains might also be down to pulley stretching, I think I've linked to something on this subject either earlier on this thread or a similar thread.
Because of the time scale involved, you're looking at physical gains after about 4 weeks. It may be that part of these early big gains might also be down to pulley stretching, I think I've linked to something on this subject either earlier on this thread or a similar thread.
Perhaps I should have measured my forearms before I started and the day after each session - forearm circumference is meant to be a pretty good indicator of hypertrophyI had the same thought. I just started a second cycle, so maybe I'll do it now and see what it shows.
Maybe someone who hasn't started yet could do it....
In my search, we observed that finger strength and endurance improved a lot after 4 weeks, but only a bit more in week 10, 2 weeks after the end of training in week 8; this shows us the importance of rest and/or tapering in strength training.
However, in week 12, or 4 weeks later the last deadhang session, all gains in finger strength and endurance were lost.
The real question is what were the.climbers doing in those 4 weeks? If bouldering and they lost all their 'gains' then the gains sound crappy and somehow not 'real'. If nothing then of course they were shit after 4 weeks doing nothing..
The real question is what were the.climbers doing in those 4 weeks? If bouldering and they lost all their 'gains' then the gains sound crappy and somehow not 'real'. If nothing then of course they were shit after 4 weeks doing nothing..
In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training. Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength
In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training.Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength. Also, for climbers with a lower level of maximum strength who want to train specifically their finger strength-endurance, the gains in the latter -as measured by a test of maximum time on an 11 mm edge- will be greater if they first improve their finger maximum strength than if they start training their finger strength-endurance right away (unpublished data, manuscript in preparation). (Edited 2012-07-26 because previous paragraph was incomplete and ambiguous-->Thank you very much to my attentive readers ;-))
@BrokenBennett asked me via twitter: I would like to know (or understand) what you're saying regarding very small edges. Does your method transfer below X mm?
MY ANSWER:
Look, no exercise transfers to everything, and no correlation in biomedic science is perfect, or equal to 1. This means that one variable can explain part of the variance of another, but never 100% of it. This is why I just can say that there is a correlation (0,79 to be exact) between maximum added weight on a 15 mm edge for 5 seconds and maximum time on a 10 mm edge. There is another interesting and logical result that I found in another study that will be included in my thesis: there is correlation between maximum time in 10 mm and time in 8 and 12 mm; these in turn have correlation with 6 and 14 mm respectively. However, no measure could predict the performance for all edge depths.
Lastly, apart from external factors like heat and moisture, when it comes to edges < 5 mm, Bourne et al. (2011) have found a greater relation with anatomical factors, and even skin quality, than with maximum strength. Other authors like MacLeod et al. (2007) have noted the importance of precison in the application of force. Anyway, several authors (Mermier et al., 2000; Balas et al., 2011) have observed that the training variable has great influence on climbing performance, as you will undoubtedly know from your own experience. Best regards and thank you for your interest.
BrokenBennett asked me via twitter: I'd like to know how you advocate adding weight, 70% bodyweight from a harness feels very bad for me.
MY ANSWER:
70% bodyweight is a general approximation, a maximum recommended for male climbers that I have estimated after having supervised the training of more than 50 climbers. But it's always better to figure out your own personal threshold. I have observed people who can hold less weight (about 50% BW) and others wo can hold more (about 80% BW). Trust your sensations and try to use less weight than your back or skin can take. Best regards
MY ANSWER:
Look, no exercise transfers to everything, and no correlation in biomedic science is perfect, or equal to 1. This means that one variable can explain part of the variance of another, but never 100% of it. This is why I just can say that there is a correlation (0,79 to be exact) between maximum added weight on a 15 mm edge for 5 seconds and maximum time on a 10 mm edge. There is another interesting and logical result that I found in another study that will be included in my thesis: there is correlation between maximum time in 10 mm and time in 8 and 12 mm; these in turn have correlation with 6 and 14 mm respectively. However, no measure could predict the performance for all edge depths.
Steve is cheating because pulling on tiny edges is all genetics and thus everything with small holds should be given 7a (morpho). Sorted.
To summarise:
Getting strong on certain sizes of holds transfers best to similar holds. (Who would have thought it)
The texture/ resin that the board is made of makes training on it a bit like setting fire to all your fingers, then smashing a door shut on them repeatedly for a few hours, then pouring acid on them, only worse.
I thought that was the opposite of what she was claiming? that getting strong (with added weight) on larger holds transfers to small holds, but vice-versa doesn't.
QuoteMY ANSWER:
Look, no exercise transfers to everything, and no correlation in biomedic science is perfect, or equal to 1. This means that one variable can explain part of the variance of another, but never 100% of it. This is why I just can say that there is a correlation (0,79 to be exact) between maximum added weight on a 15 mm edge for 5 seconds and maximum time on a 10 mm edge. There is another interesting and logical result that I found in another study that will be included in my thesis: there is correlation between maximum time in 10 mm and time in 8 and 12 mm; these in turn have correlation with 6 and 14 mm respectively. However, no measure could predict the performance for all edge depths.
Perhaps its poor wording, but that sounds very unusual from a statistical stand-point.
I'd be interested to see if she done anything more sophisticated than simply calculate correlation coefficients with her data.
I would take from what that, that when you get much smaller than 6, it's nails so some folk will be able to do it and others won't even be able to take the pain, and when you get much above 14mm, you get very near the joint (depending on grip type/morphology) so ability would vary wildly from one griptype/climber to another. You would only expect correlation where all force is applied through the pad (and not the joint or bone end)
I would take from what that, that when you get much smaller than 6, it's nails so some folk will be able to do it and others won't even be able to take the pain, and when you get much above 14mm, you get very near the joint (depending on grip type/morphology) so ability would vary wildly from one griptype/climber to another. You would only expect correlation where all force is applied through the pad (and not the joint or bone end)
I'd expect there would still be a relationship outside of the pairs stated, even if its non-linear, that have been tested for correlation within the ranges stated. Extrapolating outside of the ranges studied/reported is always dubious. :geek:
Anyway in a typical session, I'm constantly alternating max and sub max hangs, because on certain holds I am a lot stronger and I can't add too much weight, because it's a hassle, I keep the same weight and hang for longer. Also a lot longer.
So, to target the stronger prehensions at their max, I prefer to switch to one handed hangs, with or without assistance.
And the circle is complete: from one handed, to Lopez, to one handed!
Ringkomposition!
I still think that one armed hangs (even with assistance) are much better.
AnonymousFebruary 16, 2012 11:19 PMhttp://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/dead-hang-training-on-small-edges.html (http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/dead-hang-training-on-small-edges.html)
I was curious: are your dead hangs performed with two hands or one arm? whats your oppinion about this? Great Post by the way!
Reply
Replies
Eva LópezFebruary 18, 2012 8:01 PM
Hi, thanks for your participation! All your questions are really interesting
;-)
I usually perform my dead hangs with two hands, and that is the position I propose here.
Nevertheless ,one-handed dead hangs can be adequate for those with a very high level of maximum finger strength (who "unfortunately" need to use added weight representing more than 70% of their body mass, or have to use edges less than 6 mm-deep). Going one-handed for them would represent using no or little added weight (good for their lower back) or choosing bigger edges (good for their skin). But this change in the style implies a less stable posture that can be difficult to master. In fact, when hanging off one arm we no longer can focus on holding from the edge and avoid swinging when lifting our feet off the ground; we have also to fight the tendency of the body to rotate, and keep our elbow slightly flexed to put less strain on it and on the shoulder/neck.
Testing would be needed to see if this can be useful to climbers with a less demanding profile, but anyway I'll tell you that I usually don't recommend training schedules with a steep and fast progression. I tend to first use the easiest methods and loads that promote adaptation in the body, and slowly increase the load and difficulty in a process that can take years. This allows us to enjoy greater long-term improvement and to reduce the risk of injuries.
Regards.
AnonymousJune 12, 2012 8:05 PM
Hi Eva,
I would like to have your opinion about one arm dead hangs. do you think it's better to do one arm dead hangs or two arm dead hangs with a lot of added weight?
thanks
Adrien
Reply
Replies
Eva LópezJuly 3, 2012 12:28 PM
Hi Adrien,
You can find some of my thougths about it in a previous comment
I can add a couple of cases where they could be of use:
- For people with pain in their elbows caused by overuse of their pronator muscles, that as you know have their insertions in the elbow. By doing one-hand deadhangs we switch to a neutral position of the forearm, where the palm is facing us instead of facing away from us. This way we release some of the stress on these muscles.
- For working our strength with the open hand type of grip, on holds 30-40 mm deep, or specific one-hand maximum strength, especially for bouldering.
- Taking advantage of the fact that this position is unstable in nature, so we can work our body tension along with our fingers but, as I comment in the link above, only for the most experienced climbers.
As you can see, there are several uses to one-handed deadhangs, but beware, one of the drawbacks of performing them is that you must at all times watch your shoulder for signs of fatigue or over-extension, because it is the weak link in this exercise.
Did my 35 second test hang at the gym. Was slightly worried I wasn't going to manage it, but thankfully it was easy.
Next step, get a hold of a 18mm campus rung.
But are you still maintaining the 3 second 'effort level' margin she recommend? Or have just progressed to maximum effort hangs in pursuit of gold and glory? (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/gold-medal-smiley.gif?1292867608)
Just done a session with 4x10secs with 7.5kg added - another PB.
I wasnt expecting to get past 5kg but it went down OK with 40 seconds of grimacing.
This is my 3rd week on the small hold (about 13mm) and compares favourably with the first session when I was the same weight and required 2.5kg off - so that represents a 10kg improvement in 16 days.
Unfortunately I can only fit this one session this week given that a day's prior rest is required. So two sessions next week and then the 8 week cycle is over.
After that some finger endurance training. I guess.
How is your skin coping Shark? The holds looks horrible.
Did you do 4 weeks on the 18mm and 4 on the 13mm? Is that what you are referring to for your 8 week cycle?
What does Eva say to do once this is complete? At what point do you go back to another cycle?
Day Reps Added Weight (kg)
07/23/2012 3 41.3
07/26/2012 5 41.3
07/30/2012 5 43.4
08/02/2012 4 45.8
For reference, here are the first 4 weeks:
Day Reps Added Weight (kg)
06/12/2012 4 31.8
06/15/2012 5 31.8
06/21/2012 4 36.3
06/25/2012 3 39.5
06/27/2012 5 39.5
07/03/2012 4 41.3
07/07/2012 5 41.3
I've also decreased body weight over the course of this cycle from 78.5kg to 76.7kg.
Out of curiousity why 6 reps?
Damn, I am so jealous!!!
I'm a pretty consistent 79 kg
On an 18mm edge
This is from memory so the 4 and 7 might be a touch off but the first and last 2 are def' right
Day Reps Added Weight (kg) %BW
1 4.5 +45 57%
4 5 +45 57%
7 5 +47.5 60%
10 6 +47.5 60%
13 6 +48.5 61%
16 6 +50 63%
After that I think I'll look to significantly reduce the depth of the edge (possibly to the bottom edge of the beastmaker - not sure what depth that is) and the weight - to be honest having 50kg round my waist on a harness probably isn't doing my back any good....
After that I think I'll look to significantly reduce the depth of the edge (possibly to the bottom edge of the beastmaker - not sure what depth that is) and the weight - to be honest having 50kg round my waist on a harness probably isn't doing my back any good....
its about 12.5 mm on mine but quite rounded.
3-5 sets x 4-5reps x 10'' :5''/1'-3'
3-5 sets x 4-5reps x 10'' :5''/1'-3'
Total guesswork, but...
3-5 sets of 4-5 repetitions of 10second hangs, 5 seconds between hangs, 1-3 minutes between sets.
Have you got a link to her blog entry? it might provide some context.
b) 4 weeks of 3-4-5-5 sets of dead hangs on the smallest edge that you can hold for 10''(3) (effort level of 3) and resting 3' between sets. By the way, for the second week this would be expressed like this: 4 x 10''(3) :3'. The figure after the colon denotes the resting time.
from this:Quoteb) 4 weeks of 3-4-5-5 sets of dead hangs on the smallest edge that you can hold for 10''(3) (effort level of 3) and resting 3' between sets. By the way, for the second week this would be expressed like this: 4 x 10''(3) :3'. The figure after the colon denotes the resting time.
I'd say that the rest between reps is 5 seconds and she hasn't specified an effort level.
There are two variants you can choose from:
- Without added weight, using the smallest possible edge that allows you to finish the entire session.
- With added weight, on larger (18-14mm) edges and with a load that allows you to carry out the whole session.
I always recommend starting with the easiest and less agressive one, without added weight. (http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/frequently-asked-questions-about_27.html#uds-search-results)
I've just done my max weight test on my 18mm edge, and I ran out of climbing gear/weight to attach to myself. Oops.
So off to town tomorrow to buy some proper weights.
I assume everyone is half crimping?
Can someone who has access to the Progression Training plans take a high quality photo and post the image on here? :please:
It would be good for all to have a look at the programme recommended in it's complete form.
so who wants to stump up 23 quid?
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19346182.2012.716061 (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19346182.2012.716061)
- However, what is missing is any data regarding the progression/additional intensity that either group showed during the MED component.(Reduction in MED used)
I hypothesise that there was very little increase in intensity (reduction in edge depth) for all participants during the MED component due to the physcial discomfort of training on such small edges and thus there was little traing effect as intensity remained constant (N.B. the training was done a wooden edge, not resin a la the Progression finger board).
- With regards to the Barrows/Three Nine comments about the increase in strength being due to a tapering effect (not training the day before the finger board sessions) the participants in the study were all doing 2-4hrs of "technical and physical training" 6 days a week (bouldering, PE, enduro mixture). So, although the gains seen by the UKB guinea pigs might be a tapering effect, this study doesn't support that conclusion.
For the MED phase I just used the same small edge and increased weight as I got stronger which is far more practical if you dont have a Progression fingerboard. It worked really well too.
Is "Sports Technology" some kind of micro-niche journal? I can't even find a impact rating for it...
...
Is "Sports Technology" some kind of micro-niche journal? I can't even find a impact rating for it...
My Athens account can't access it (admittedly from an industrial firm, not academia) and a friend studying medicine can't get hold of it either.
All in all, this isn't looking like this work has undergone the best experimental design (few participants, potential for cross-over between groups), nor the most robust statistical analysis, nor is published in a journal with a significant impact rating, which mght lower how stringent the entry criteria are for publication.
(I might just be bitter: I only got one paper out of my Masters and PhD thesis combined :()
Is "Sports Technology" some kind of micro-niche journal? I can't even find a impact rating for it...
...
Do climbing articles tend to appear in A* rated sport science journals? Maybe this is an unfair bar to measure it against. Actually what are the highly rated sport science journals?
Do climbing articles tend to appear in A* rated sport science journals? Maybe this is an unfair bar to measure it against. Actually what are the highly rated sport science journals?
See the Wiki training page for some other climbing related articles I've listed with links to the journals if you're bothered about impact factors (something like Web of Science or PubMed should give you Impact factors for journals).
Neurological gains are real, just transient. If you're trying to peak for a route or a trip then it hardly matters that its transient.
Out of curiousity and hoping for education, how would you test/measure how much of the gains were neural vs. non-neural?
Basically wondering from a longer-term perspective- If this concept is primarily nueral, it would be very logical to use for peaking (final macro-cycle), what would be optimal for strength gains in the 6 months prior? i.e. is this any better/worse than other strength options for setting up repeated strength cycles?
what were your gains in the first 4 week cycle (more or less than the 15% in the second)?
Can I also ask, were you doing much deadhanging before doing the MAW routine?
It'll be fairly interesting to see how that progresses if you choose to do a 3rd, 4th, 5th etc.I'm doing the MED cycle right now, then I'll probably take a break for about a month, then back into MAW hangs. At this point I'm looking to do 3-4 4 week cycles with about 1 week off between over the winter. I'll keep posting as I go through the multiple cycles.
Has anyone tried to test maximal hang duration on an edge?
"10 sets of between 3 and 90 moves" - that's a huge difference. Having some people bouldering and others performing stam-lord exercises detracts somewhat; it's hardly surprising that there might be some strength differences between those two types of training after an 8 week cycle!
Has anyone tried to test maximal hang duration on an edge?
Was that consistently 42/56 seconds at each time point? If not , and they are means, what was/is the standard deviation around each? (and ideally the number of times you tried so that the standard error of the mean can be calculated)n=1 :whistle:
:geek:
Thanks beast. Good idead doing some progeessions into it.
Besides, which info could one get from maximum duration hangs, that are useful for training and climbing?
Thanks beast. Good idead doing some progeessions into it.
Besides, which info could one get from maximum duration hangs, that are useful for training and climbing?
First 4-week cycle started off adding 40% of BW and ended adding 52% of BW, so a little bit less from that perspective. I did lose weight during this period, so based on total hanging weight, I saw 9% total gain during the first cycle, and a 7% gain during the second cycle (16% as compared to initial hanging weight). (most of the weight was lost during the second cycle)
Here's the link I found with the better description of her plan:
http://www.climbingstrong.com/2012/10/27/170/ (http://www.climbingstrong.com/2012/10/27/170/)
I am obviously not following her "plan".
I don't understand any of the jargon bit can someone tell me if this shit works or what?
I'm gonna give it a go. Do you feel much stronger on the stone Shark?
That's impressive gains for both of you.
I can't find it with a quick look but I remember that Lopez alternated good hold with added weight and very small edges, are you both staying with the weighted hangs on a good edge?
- Scratch that, just found Shark's post
That's all very well but Doyle's fingerboard set up in his toilet doorway wont allow him to attach any weights (you have to pull on kneeling), you didn't think of that did you Simon?!
I fully agree with Shrak's statement "It feels like cheating".
DISCLAIMER: A big caveat for those reading(not you doylo) is that both Shark and I have been climbing for a very long time(17+ years for me) and have put in the miles to refine technique. As such, focusing directly on strength is addressing a weakness. I would strongly suggest that those in their first 5 years of climbing focus on climbing more so they learn the movement aspect better before trying to maximize strength.
Fuckin' hell Chris that's got three rungs on it no less. High tec!
I would guess you were in a similar position to Shark and I, where you've probably been relatively plateaued for quite a while as well. You'll make progress on individual routes, and very slowly creep up the grades, but nothing major. This really changed for me after doing this targeted FB.
Prior to this summer I had done less than 10 total v10 or harder problems in my life. This summer I did 12 problems v10 or harder, including two projects I had been working for 12 years.
I have blogged on this. It should appear in the blog pile within 24hours or you can go to it now: http://27crags.com/climbers/shark/blog (http://27crags.com/climbers/shark/blog)
I've started off with 25kg on a 15mm edgeSeems about right for what you're climbing, 8A-8A+ish boulder right?
That's really helpful, thank you.You're welcome. I wish I had known about this about 9-10 years ago.
I've started off with 25kg on a 15mm edgeSeems about right for what you're climbing, 8A-8A+ish boulder right?
I'm half a stone overweight at the moment though...It's OK if you're in training mode to have extra weight, just make sure to track total hanging weight (body weight plus added weight), instead of added weight, as that will more accurately track finger strength.
is it best to do the board session beforehand?
Cheers!
So after reading about 5 pages I have gathered I should be ok to combine my gym weights with the dead hangs but to leave out the climbing till the day after, followed by a rest day, before my next session on the dead hangs.Generally yes, but I find when I start getting higher weights(30-50kg), then my shoulders/pull/core have to be strong as well to really maximize the hangs. So if I did a weights session first, it could compromise that when i'm at really heavy hanging weight.
It sounds like it is best to do the fingerboard stuff first before any other form of exercise but it is more practical for me to go the gym near home before the weighted hangs (as I usually train at the wall just before work). Reckon it should be ok this way around assuming I don't knacker my grip?
:rtfm:
:rtfm:
It's not quite as simple as that though, given that the conventional logic is to put exercises using fewer muscles and less coordination after those which require more coordination. I suspect that for each advocate of putting hangs first there will be an advocate of putting hangs second.
A rope access harness is ideal if you know someone who can lend you one. Maybe it's a coincidence but I was a lot stronger on the board today after 2 weighted sessions
I manged 2 extra sets than planned, the hangs themselves felt hard and I had to try hard. Reading posts on this thread, due to the successful 5 sets should I up the weight by 1.5kg for the next session and aim for 3 main sets again?
I think the big holds on the bm are to big to half crimp effectively. For half crimp ive just convinced myself that I prefer the "easier" bm. I find this a much better size for the fingers, if the holds bigger I have a tendency to drop into a drag when tiring.
A rope access harness is ideal if you know someone who can lend you one. Maybe it's a coincidence but I was a lot stronger on the board today after 2 weighted sessions
Borrowed youngy's setting harness today, way more comfortable even though i'm a fat ba&tard and its pyar tight!
Sorry for another idiotic question but Is everyone doing this in a strict half crimp?I've done both 1/2 crimp and open. Due to wanting to track progress, I picked one and then did that same one for 4 weeks.
I'm using the small lower outside slots on the BM2K for mine. The only issue I have with them is that they have a pretty big bevel, so they are harder than 14mm edge with less bevel.I think the big holds on the bm are to big to half crimp effectively. For half crimp I've just convinced myself that I prefer the "easier" bm. I find this a much better size for the fingers, if the holds bigger I have a tendency to drop into a drag when tiring.
I'd found the big slots on the 2000 entice me towards a half drag sort of position too.
I've been using the little rails on the bottom outside edges, which I assume are probably too small for that to count as strict Lopez training? Either way, I could just about manage 3x10secs on about +10kg.
Slightly :offtopic: I know, but I have a query. When you guys do the max hangs, do you find yourself tensing your core like mad like I do? I noticed this yesterday when I was doing some repeaters, and my midsection feels worked this morning. Is this right, and if so, will core training lead to an increase in deadhang ability? If so, that's weird as hell!Yes and no. I certainly use my entire core/lats/arms during the hangs, but for me personally(and i would guess most climbers) my core is not the failure point, and never gets sore after repeaters or max hangs. So I would say, if your core is being worked that hard, then strengthening your core may help your repeaters, but probably not for most people.
I manged 2 extra sets than planned, the hangs themselves felt hard and I had to try hard. Reading posts on this thread, due to the successful 5 sets should I up the weight by 1.5kg for the next session and aim for 3 main sets again?
Go for 2.5kgs. Dont get too stressed if you don't quite manage 3x10secs.
I've done both 1/2 crimp and open. Due to wanting to track progress, I picked one and then did that same one for 4 weeks.
Cheers. I think it was more noticing that my core had been engaged than actually getting fatigued. At least my fingerboard training doesn't suggest I have the tensest climbing style in the world (I'll leave that to my climbing!).
Cheers Shark, how many milimeters smaller is everyone going on the small edge cycle in relation to the large edge?
Cheers Shark, how many milimeters smaller is everyone going on the small edge cycle in relation to the large edge?I've only done the small hold cycle once, and I went from +50kg on a 18mm edge to a 7mm edge.
Yes, exactly. I've tried the maximum added weight only once last summer (yes I'm an idiot) and it was a true pain. I felt my lower back really badly worked for days, afterwars; I have to say that I also did far too many sets, going with 5 kg increases. Anyway I got where I wanted (using all the weights I had at home) and never tried it again nor felt the desire to.
Got back to one armed hangs on bigger holds and it feels a lot better.
As for the smallest edge, I've only used a 5 mm one, half crimped, obviously without any added weight, but doing both simple deadhangs and pull ups. Not very useful in my opinion because the contact surface is so small (with also a slightly rounded edge to avoid deep cuts) that despite good skin and conditions it's very hard to put in more that one single good set without starting to slide off.
I wanted to make an incut (instead of flat) 5 mm edge to avoid the sliding issues and work it more effectively but never got to doing it.
I think that these imbalances should be addressed in separate sessions, with specific work, like splitting fingers on the Beastmaker. Common half crimped or fully crimped deadhangs will only encrease the imbalances between front middle and back2.In my experience, I found that my imbalances actually decreased, but that may be because I'm a weird case. I'll defer to your experience on this as it seems far more logical and I have no explanation for mine....
I think the big holds on the bm are to big to half crimp effectively. For half crimp ive just convinced myself that I prefer the "easier" bm. I find this a much better size for the fingers, if the holds bigger I have a tendency to drop into a drag when tiring.
Wouldn't there be more weight going through your fingers if your just hang off them one handed?
I'm at kendal wall and having to use one the Eva Lopez fingerboards. It's fuckin nasty :shit:So it's as bad as it looks.....
Large campus rung and bits of cord at various diameters?Tried somethign similar, and it didn't work well. you really do need a fixed solid piece at the back
I'll have a bash unless Sasquatch has time and wants to do it.
Cheers for looking at the wiki idea guys. I'm sure it will be well received.
Max Hangs:
Maximum hang training is pretty much as simple as it sounds. Warm-up, then do FB hangs that are at your maximum with enough rest between hangs for full recovery. Many different version of this have been done, and the key is to create a structured, repeatable and measurable program. One such structured protocol for this was espoused by Mrs. Eva Lopez and been dubbed the Lopez Protocol.
Lopez Protocol:
Cobbled together from various posts on her blog, the following protocol seems to be what she espouses.
Pre-requisites:
1. You've been climbing for more than 2 years
2. You can hang an 18mm edge for at least 35 seconds
If you meet these pre-requisites, then the next step is to test how much weight you can add to reach a maximum hang time of 13 seconds on a 14-20mm edge (choose based on your ability).
The workout:
Warm-up 10-15min
• Warm up Moving the joints of upper body, shoulders, elbows, neck and fingers;
• Following with 2-3 easy traverses for 2 to 5 minutes
• Followed by 2-3 boulder problems with increasing difficulty; or several progressive sets on easy holds of the hangboard if we are at home
Progressive sets: 10-15min
• Hang 10 sec with 40-50% of the total added weight. 3-4 min rest.
• Hang 10 sec with 80% of the total added weight. 3-4 min rest.
• Hang 10 sec with 90% of the total added weight. 3-4 min rest.
Main Workout: 10-20min
• Hang 10 sec with max weight. 3-4 min rest.
• Repeat 2-4 more times.
That’s all – This workout takes in general 30-45 minutes total from start to finish.
The day before is always a rest day for fingers and pulling muscles. It is OK to climb or train other aspects than max finger strength later that day, or the next day.
Cheers, nice one Sasquatch!
Is it worth adding a bit about when to add more weight? Such as once 5 main sets can be completed up the weight by "X" amount and aim for 3 main sets next session.
Probably worth introducing the idea, but that's just what I've been doing, not what she recommends. Her plan says to set the weight for each session based on how you're performing during that session.
I didn't like that concept as if I was not mentally up for it, I would just take the lower weight and not dig as deep as I should have been. before my main sets I weight myself and all of my add weight to make sure I am at the right total hang weight, and then mentally, I know there is no excuse for failure..... It's really helped.
What are you guys doing if you fail on a set?
Reckon those moon fingerboard bottom pockets (number 5 on their training pics) are closer to 20mm than 18mm? I'm pretty shit at guessing.
pop yer wee man in and if it can reach the back flaccid, it'll be 18mm :P
| deadhangs, open crimp | very basic | basic | intermediate | advanced | |
| max weight supported for 5s on a 15 mm edge | male | <20kg | 25-40kg | 42-55kg | >60kg |
| " | female | <10kg | 12-25kg | 25-32kg | >35kg |
| smallest edge that can be hung for 10s | >18mm | 12-18mm | 8-10mm | <7mm | |
| max duration on 20 mm edge | <25s | 30-40s | 50-60s | >80s |
This table from López course material might be of some help;
Got a link to the slides, will add it to the Wiki if so.Alas, only have them in paper version. Also they are called “Curso de Metodología y planificacion de la fuerza y la resistencia en escalada esportiva”
Those weights must relate to a specific body weight, otherwise they'd be suggesting that women were only half as strong as men.
They'd be more useful if they were relative.
Would someone like to hazard a guess a to the bod weight they relate to?
Those weights must relate to a specific body weight, otherwise they'd be suggesting that women were only half as strong as men.Of course. 60 kg is less than what Klem Loskot eats for breakfast. It is only a rough guide anyway. From looking around on Spanish crags my guess is that male intermediate sport climbers (approx rp 8b or so?) ~ 64 kg and female ~ 52 kg.
[...]
Would someone like to hazard a guess a to the bod weight they relate to?
I benchmarked myself (~71-73 kg), and was mostly of intermediate level. Max added weight was by far my worst “event”.
My first thought on looking at your table was that the max weight seemed out of kilter to the other benchmarks but put it down to personal bias/weakness.
I've had to knock it on the head for now as it was aggravating an old elbow grievance. Pretty gutted as i was getting stronger and don't really know what to do instead :doubt:
64kg!!!!! That's not the weight of a mans body, that's a kettlebellIndeed! I weigh 65, in effect!!!
I was finding my lower back didn't enjoy the weight going over 35kg.
Is my maths right for the % of Body Weight added? Am I right in saying it's a 7.09% total gain so far?
Is my maths right for the % of Body Weight added? Am I right in saying it's a 7.09% total gain so far?
I make it 7.4% absolute gain on your first session.
Interesting that you are getting good gains on one session a week.
http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/dead-hang-training-on-small-edges.html (http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/dead-hang-training-on-small-edges.html)
Yes, you are right! I am using the open grip in that picture It's my favorite position on small holds instead of the half-crimp. Personal taste aside, it's less harmful for pulleys and tendons.
Personally, I started to use this grip type just after I completely torn my ring finger's A2 pulley (no functional trace of it was left! :-/). I had been climbing only for 2 years by that time, so I got really scared, and I made a decision:
to work the slope grip for almost every type of hold in order to prevent more injuries. I love to climb...you know.
Because of that, when I pull on small holds, I intuitively apply the open grip.
If you read carefully the poster, you will notice that in the 1st line, 3rd column, I recommend the following:
"Grip type used: starting with the half crimp or open crimp position and proceeding to training with the open hand crimp"
So...half crimp is correct on small edges, but depending on the relative length of your fingers, specially of your pinkie (I think this fact affects the choice or tendency to use one grip type or other) and your objectives, you can train the half crimp or the open grip. But I strongly recommend you to try to get used to the open grip.
Good idea to back-off if injured. When you start again consider substituting doing the hangs with a drag rather than a half crimp. It's not necessarily half-crimp or nothing!. Confusingly open handing is Eva's favoured grip due to early injury. If you can I wouldn't leave it too long before getting back in the saddle as the early measured gains in the study reversed after a few weeks
Thanks Shark, interesting read from Eva's blog. Will definitely train with a drag next time. In regards to getting back in the saddle, does this mean getting back on the fingerboard in general (say, starting a repeater cycle) or getting back to weighted hangs specifically? Don't want to risk losing the gains!
Would you recommend starting back with the 15kg main sets or drop the weight initially due to the injury?
I'm going to aim for next Thursday (10 days after the strain) to get back on the board. I'm confident I should be alright as theres no swelling, or pain when hanging.
Hopefully any fingerboard work should at least maintain gains. As I haven't got a medical background or even had the slightest tweak from over 6 months of weighted deadhangs I'm not confident to offer specific suggestions about training after or whilst injured for anyone else. What I meant by getting back in the saddle is that in general terms leaving it too long before training again can be problematic. Of course this begs the question when is too soon or too long. Sorry I'm not being very helpful here.
is it generally the longer you've done the specific training for, the longer it takes for the gains to diminish?
So after doing several rounds of these style of hangs intermixed with a couple of repeater cycles, and seeing significant improvements, I blew an A2 pulley. This got me thinking a bit. Before I got injured, I was reading a piece from a gymnast trainer, and they talked about how after a build cycle, they would always incorporate an undertraining cycle.
The gist of the undertraining cycle was to allow your body to adapt and get used to the new level of strength so that it became your new "normal". This seems pretty important to me, and I see alot of benefit in this. My plan(once the pulley heals) is to incorporate a 4 week "undertraining" cycle after two 4 week build cycles. This cycle will continue doing the hangs, but at a constant weight and reps for all 4 weeks. I'll use this 4 weeks to focus on other strength such as deadlifts ;D
Thoughts?
My plan(once the pulley heals) is to incorporate a 4 week "undertraining" cycle after two 4 week build cycle
Thoughts?
The lazy climber's training method of choice just got easier :dance1:
Sounds interesting, during the undertraining cycle what would the weight be? The high point you got to during the build cycle or a reduced weight?
Dunno, I was figuring pretty close to where I stopped during the build phase, not really reducing.
Anyone think it would be better to space these "plateau" weeks more frequently? For example any thoughts on wether/why it might be better to do 2 weeks build-1 week steady, vs 8 weeks build-4weeks steady. My gut says the longer cycle would be better, but I'm not sure why.....
Are you guys changing edge size after the first two week rest or just starting where you finished at the end of first 4 weeks?
I did my first four weeks on 18mm was going to switch down to 12mm for next 4 week block?
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Interesting that she recommends not bending the arms. I was under the impression that a slightly bend was better for the elbows...
I might have missed this reading through the thread. What is the maximum weight recommended, for the max weight phase, before it is recommended to move to the next rung size down (20mm to 18mm)?
I'm sure I'm nowhere near but I want to make sure. I remember something about 40 (either % or kgs).
Interesting that she recommends not bending the arms. I was under the impression that a slightly bend was better for the elbows...
English isn't her native language so it might just mean dont do frenchies, but not that you shouldnt slightly bend your elbows.
I might have missed this reading through the thread. What is the maximum weight recommended, for the max weight phase, before it is recommended to move to the next rung size down (20mm to 18mm)?
I'm sure I'm nowhere near but I want to make sure. I remember something about 40 (either % or kgs).
70% of bodyweight
I notice this has gone quiet for a while, do people still rate this technique?
I'm about to commit to actually training finger strength only for the first time ever you see. Can you use this method one-armed? I can't actually one-arm a small edge yet but I think that's mainly to do with shoulder weaknesses and not problems with finger strength.
I'm about to commit to actually training finger strength only for the first time ever you see. Can you use this method one-armed? I can't actually one-arm a small edge yet but I think that's mainly to do with shoulder weaknesses and not problems with finger strength.
I notice this has gone quiet for a while, do people still rate this technique?Yes. Still doing it, still seeing slow but steady gains.
I'm about to commit to actually training finger strength only for the first time ever you see. Can you use this method one-armed? I can't actually one-arm a small edge yet but I think that's mainly to do with shoulder weaknesses and not problems with finger strength.
There are plenty of folk doing assisted one-armed hangs etc. on fingerboards in various grip types, don't really think there is any real need to attribute the half-crimp grip to being a "lopez" grip, or follow a "lopez protocol", just train it and see how you go.I think of the "lopez" protocol as more being 5 x 10sec max hangs, where you are able to complete at least the first 3 hangs. Not so much the prehension. I'd also say if you're doing 1-arms, thats not really the lopez version anymore either.
This is why I find the Lopez shizzle no different to anyone else's prescribed methods.There are plenty of folk doing assisted one-armed hangs etc. on fingerboards in various grip types, don't really think there is any real need to attribute the half-crimp grip to being a "lopez" grip, or follow a "lopez protocol", just train it and see how you go.I think of the "lopez" protocol as more being 5 x 10sec max hangs, where you are able to complete at least the first 3 hangs. Not so much the prehension. I'd also say if you're doing 1-arms, thats not really the lopez version anymore either.
Are you trying to build up to a 1-arm pull on a small edge? if so you have answered your own question (whetehr correctly or not is another matter entirely)
I've tried bouldering hard to improve finger strength but my skin always gives out before my fingers if I have multiple session in a week. I hate to have to substitute a climbing session for Fingerboarding but can't see another solution
This is why I find the Lopez shizzle no different to anyone else's prescribed methods.I'd generally agree with you and perhaps I should clarify that she has a bunch of other parameters for how much weight to add, how many workouts to do in a given period, Full day rest the day before, etc. as part of her "protocol".
"hmm I like the number 10 and 10 is nice and easy to remember so let's say hangs of 10 second duration"
I'm certain that sticking to a preprescribed routine can make a difference to someone who isn't able to get enough out of their current training (I'm including even just climbing in that use of the word "training" ) and isn't able to decide or analyse what exercises and durations/repetitions etc they should perform.I think this is where most climbers fail, and myself as well up until I decided to do her workouts. They decide to fingerboard, so they just add some random hanging on a random basis to their schedule. Sure they may get stronger fingers, but perhaps not as effectively as they could have with a controlled and designed routine.
Everyone on here trains differently, moves differently, pulls differently, rests differently, etc etc, so whilst it may be comforting/encouraging to obtain anecdotal (at best) information on this type of training, just try it and give it beans ffs :)To be fair she did actually do a study on it with a reasonable # of people. However, I'd agree that there's no comparative to say that her method is better than something else, amongst other issues with the study, so your earlier point definitely stands.
I'm adding 40kg (I'm an actual fat bastard at 87kg and 6'2"
Whats the general thinking on this?
I'm on an 18mm campus rung at the moment which is working well although at some point I may have to make that smaller with a bit or cardboard or something.
The big problem I have with the B2K is that it suddenly jumps (2 handed at least) from like 30mm to 10mm hence the seperate rung.
I found great improvement in changing to one arm hangs.
I did one arm hangs and really struggled with shoulder/body(?) stability so moved to weighted two handed hangs. I'm currently at +35kg (~60% bodyweight) which feels a little uncomfortable, but it is just a couple of heavy plates hanging off the front of my harness. I'd imagine with a better distributed weighting I could get up to close to double bodyweigth in reasonable comfort, which I'd personally prefer to one arm hanging.It will get exponentially more uncomfortable.
(http://media.onsugar.com/files/ons1/192/1922729/38_2009/6ba17015016c5ca8_3166936457_bc4cbef7aa.xlarge.jpg)
Like this? quite common.