[Paul B]

There's a review of the boards over on the other channel by Gore which also has a bit more information on her research. It seems the boards will also be available to buy at selected walls like The Depot soon.

I'm not trying to be a twat (or have a particularly negative attitude towards this) but an article posted as an independent gear review should be that, am I missing something?

For UK Trade Sales then please contact Chris Gore at

from:

http://reachclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/finger-strength-training-system-by-eva.html

[cheque]

The suggested retail price of the boards is £200

the dimensions are 38cm x 58cm x 15cm

what's to stop you just getting hold of a training plan and using another board? – absolutely nothing

Can't see them being big sellers...

[shark]

In her blog Eva says:

"In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training. Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength"

This seems at odds with the results cited on UKC:

One group carried out the training of the first study:

- The participants with the lower level of finger strength experienced about 47% gain in finger maximum strength (maximum weight supported for 5 seconds on 15mm) and 40% in finger strength-endurance (maximum time on 11mm).
- The scores for those with a high level of finger strength went up 9% and 22% respectively.

Other group did intermittent dead hangs without added weight:

- The ones with the lower level of initial finger maximum strength went up by 25% in maximum strength and 65% in finger strength-endurance.
- In the higher strength subgroup the improvements were around 3% and 29%.”

I assume intermittent hangs are "repeaters"

[Serpico]

The suggested retail price of the boards is £200

the dimensions are 38cm x 58cm x 15cm

what's to stop you just getting hold of a training plan and using another board? – absolutely nothing

Can't see them being big sellers...

Dimensions (and colour) aside I don't see price being an issue. The majority of us on this site tend to be more tight-arsed/dirt-bag climbers, not representative of the rest of UK climbing who on the whole tend to be more cash rich, time poor. They're used to spending £100+ on a pair of boots, have all the latest shiny gear, and will happily drop £200 on something if they think it'll turn them into Dave Macleod, all it has to have is sufficient buzz around it, and the boards/Lopez blog are building that.

I'm not trying to be a twat (or have a particularly negative attitude towards this) but an article posted as an independent gear review should be that, am I missing something?

You're such a cynic Paul...  It's UKC, what do you expect? I posted it because I think it's relevant to the thread and adds a bit more info about her research. I'm still training on wood, and despite me boring both Probes and Variable about my ideas for a fingerboard it looks like continuing to be a home made one for the foreseeable future.

[abarro81]

Anyone know how long her study ran for?

[Serpico]

In her blog Eva says:

"In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training. Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength"

This seems at odds with the results cited on UKC:

One group carried out the training of the first study:

- The participants with the lower level of finger strength experienced about 47% gain in finger maximum strength (maximum weight supported for 5 seconds on 15mm) and 40% in finger strength-endurance (maximum time on 11mm).
- The scores for those with a high level of finger strength went up 9% and 22% respectively.

Other group did intermittent dead hangs without added weight:

- The ones with the lower level of initial finger maximum strength went up by 25% in maximum strength and 65% in finger strength-endurance.
- In the higher strength subgroup the improvements were around 3% and 29%.”

I assume intermittent hangs are "repeaters"

I don't see it as being at odds, which bit did you mean specifically? I'm assuming that she wanted to compare strength training protocols, so the intermittent hangs/repeaters were supposed to be a strength exercise that turned out to increase strength to a degree, and endurance to a greater degree, that is to say that without the strength increase the endurance increase wouldn't have been as great. By comparison it appears she's also done 'pure' endurance exercises where the endurance increase hasn't been as great because there wasn't a strength increase, submaximal endurance being a factor of maximal strength.
I think she includes a repeater style exercise for endurance on the training poster.

[Paul B]

I'm trying to be less of a cynic (honest) I just struggle when there's growing 'hype' which is based on a paper that isn't yet peer reviewed and available to read (I'm surely not the only one?). That doesn't mean I don't believe her findings but the process (even if it is flawed) exists for a reason.

ps - Eva has been very helpful and offered to answer the questions I posed to her after requesting a copy of the paper.

Re: UKC - they (more specifically Mick if I dare say so here) have been pretty darn good to me recently when I experienced ridiculously poor behaviour from the "biggest buyers of climbing images in the world", their words not mine.

[shark]

In her blog Eva says:

"In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training. Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength"

This seems at odds with the results cited on UKC:

One group carried out the training of the first study:

- The participants with the lower level of finger strength experienced about 47% gain in finger maximum strength (maximum weight supported for 5 seconds on 15mm) and 40% in finger strength-endurance (maximum time on 11mm).
- The scores for those with a high level of finger strength went up 9% and 22% respectively.

Other group did intermittent dead hangs without added weight:

- The ones with the lower level of initial finger maximum strength went up by 25% in maximum strength and 65% in finger strength-endurance. - In the higher strength subgroup the improvements were around 3% and 29%.”

I assume intermittent hangs are "repeaters"

I don't see it as being at odds, which bit did you mean specifically? I'm assuming that she wanted to compare strength training protocols, so the intermittent hangs/repeaters were supposed to be a strength exercise that turned out to increase strength to a degree, and endurance to a greater degree, that is to say that without the strength increase the endurance increase wouldn't have been as great. By comparison it appears she's also done 'pure' endurance exercises where the endurance increase hasn't been as great because there wasn't a strength increase, submaximal endurance being a factor of maximal strength.
I think she includes a repeater style exercise for endurance on the training poster.

Sorry you lost me. She says in her blog that the "(finger endurance) gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance" but the %gains cited are higher for finger endurance for the group training finger endurance (rather than maximal weighted hangs).

At least that's how I read it - I've put the relevant bits in bold.

[Serpico]

I don't read it as the the 'intermittent hangs' exercise being the 'endurance only' exercise she's referring to.

[shark]

Like Paul says there's too much second guessing going on whilst the studies remain private

[nai]

There was a tv programme a few months back which highlighted a study that produced equally stunning results.  This one was studying becoming fitter and the outcome was that 3x20s all-out effort three times a week was best.  Inevitably sold as "get fit in 3 minutes" though of course by the time you've warmed up, flushed lactic and allowed HR to recover between bursts and warmed down you're looking at 30 minutes or more.
Might not be relevant but I thought the similarity of an unbelievably short work time producing such great benefits was maybe more fuel for the fire while the jury's out

I've just done my benchmarking session, a piss-poor 7.5kg added (just 15% of bodyweight  ) but I guess that means the gains are potentially greater. 

[Sasquatch]

I'm trying to be less of a cynic (honest) I just struggle when there's growing 'hype' which is based on a paper that isn't yet peer reviewed and available to read (I'm surely not the only one?). That doesn't mean I don't believe her findings but the process (even if it is flawed) exists for a reason.

ps - Eva has been very helpful and offered to answer the questions I posed to her after requesting a copy of the paper.

I'm honestly quite a cynic as well.  You wouldn't guess from the posts, but reality is skewed on the net....

For me, the decision to try it out boiled down to time and facility constraints.  I can get outside and climb generally once a week, and maybe 1-2 other workouts of 1-2 hours in a week.  The local wall doesn't really set anything hard enough, so that's not a good option.  I did the repeaters thing for a couple of months and thought I certainly gained some strength from them, but I also felt I needed to vary the training.  I found this option and figured I could do it twice a week in the mornings while I get ready for work.  That way I could still run and strength train as well. 

The other big driver for me was a discussion a friend of mine and I had regarding strength training in general.  He's really into power lifting, and from a purely strength perspective, repeaters seemed to be too much work and not enough rest for "strength development". They were more like power endurance development.  Not bad in any way, but very important to understand the difference in how/why you incorporate them into a training plan. 

Anyway, long story to basically say, I agree with you on the skepticism.  I don't for one second think "The Lopez Plan" is the best thing going for strength training, but it does seem to be a solid tool in the shed....

[standard]

For those of you actually training to this plan, what are you using to hang from?
BM? Campus rung?

[Sasquatch]

A piece of wood drilled to a small reinforced sheet of ply wood.  Just measure it and go for it.

[shark]

The edge of a prototype Wedge (tm)

Further details to follow....

[Dr T]

A piece of wood drilled to a small reinforced sheet of ply wood.  Just measure it sand a little to get a comfy rounded leading edgeand go for it.

 My "Lopez" edges sit either side of my beastmaker.....

 And whilst I'm here my thanks to Sasquatch - I've been following his protocol (on p1 or 2 of this thread) managed 5 hangs on the 18mm with 46kg after the warm up two days ago - think I'll have to thin them down a mm or two soon

[Tommy]

I think you should all read her written as gains in "Strength endurance" not "endurance".

A world where endurance increases (or is measured) on a 11mm rung a very weird one. That ain't endurance by a long shot. At least, not metabolically.

Just a small point.

[Sasquatch]

My "Lopez" edges sit either side of my beastmaker.....

I put mine either side of my BM as well.  I find they're a little wide, but it engages my pull strength as well and without meaning to, I've found my pull strength has gone from being able to do a pull-up with 80lbs in March(last time I tested) to being able to do one with 100lbs last week....

[Sasquatch]

A question for everyone who's tried this protocal.  It sounds like everyone has seen significant gains at the exercise.  How do you feel those gains have translated to your climbing?

Personally, I am absolutely certain I can pull better and harder on small holds than ever before. I would say the difference for me has been close to a grade in bouldering. 

[Serpico]

I think you should all read her written as gains in "Strength endurance" not "endurance".

All local (muscular) endurance is 'strength endurance', and is generally referred to as such outside of climbing.

A world where endurance increases (or is measured) on a 11mm rung a very weird one.

Isn't that exactly how Binney tests climbing endurance, with supposedly a high correlation?

That ain't endurance by a long shot. At least, not metabolically.

Not metabolically increased but increased nonetheless.
Lopez herself doesn't advocate just strength training, and she points out that finger strength is only (she estimates) 20-30% of the picture.
 

[abarro81]

How long have you been doing this sort of structure for sasquatch?

[Dr T]

How do you feel those gains have translated to your climbing?

Measuring against the problems on my board (50 deg with mostly beastie made crimps) I certainly feel stronger.
Not always the case, but I do feel in a position of "if I can hit it I can hold it" way more often
Strangely but understandably if you really think about it (seeing as I'm half crimp to open handing the 18mm-er's) I'm feeling the biggest advance on the slopers...

And this after just 3 sessions in 9 days!

need to catch my feet and core up but they're not far behind given the deadlifting I'm been backing the Lopez/Sasquatch training up with
(don't you just love the training geekiness of ukb  )

[Sasquatch]

How long have you been doing this sort of structure for sasquatch?

I only did one full cycle of the weighted hangs, so 4 weeks.  I just started a second cycle of weighted hangs.  Not following protocol, but the small holds trashed my finger skin more than I was willing to do during the summer season here.

I think the improvment may be relatively high for me as movement and core tension were a distinct strength of mine, whereas small holds were always a weakness.  The gains from training a weakness will always be more significant.
 

Not always the case, but I do feel in a position of "if I can hit it I can hold it" way more often

That's exactly the difference I found as well. 

[abarro81]

And how did the volume of training change when you started using her structure? Just working out which bits of her formula I want to use (e.g. the 10s hangs, using weights on larger holds) and which I'm going to ignore (e.g. I'll be training the 3 2finger combos not half crimp). I'm interested to see if some gains are twmporary due to reduced volume pushing people towards a bit of a peak

[Sasquatch]

I'm pretty sure the gains for me are not the result of any type of tapering effect.  I ahd taken two weeks of climbing outside prior to starting, and saw 4 steady weeks of gains after that.  Tapering wouldn't last that long.

The general gist of my training this year:

Jan-Feb 
3 days a week of Repeaters/encores - 6 grips 2 sets, run during rest between repeater sets
3 days a week of ARC,
3 days a week of cross training - BW stuff, ie pushups, Ankles to bar, lunges, etc.

March
1 day a week of Repeaters/encores - 6 grips 2 sets, run during rest between repeater sets
2 days a week of bouldering at wall
2 days a week of ARC
2-3 days a week of running
3 days a week of cross training - Weights, ie Deadlifts, Cleans, Bench Press, Etc.

Early April -- Climbing Trip

Mid-April to Mid-May
2 days a week of Repeaters/encores - 6 grips 2 sets, run during rest between repeater sets
1 day a week of bouldering at wall or outside
1 day a week of ARC
4-5 days a week of running (15-20miles)
3 days a week of cross training - BW stuff, ie pushups, Ankles to bar, lunges, etc.

Late May - Vacation trip

June
2 days a week lopez
1-2 days a week boulder outside or at wall if no other option
5-6 days a week running (25-30 miles)
2-3 days a week of cross training - BW stuff, ie pushups, Ankles to bar, lunges, etc.

July (up till last week)
2 days a week campusing
1-2 days a week boulder outside or at wall if no other option
5-6 days a week running (25-30 miles)
2-3 days a week of cross training - weights, ie pushups, Ankles to bar, lunges, etc.