All local (muscular) endurance is 'strength endurance', and is generally referred to as such outside of climbing.Isn't that exactly how Binney tests climbing endurance, with supposedly a high correlation?Not metabolically increased but increased nonetheless. Lopez herself doesn't advocate just strength training, and she points out that finger strength is only (she estimates) 20-30% of the picture.
1. Yes, but the term in this case is misleading as everyone will think that their endurance will increase in their climbing. It won't.
2. No, he tests at a much lower force and the muscle is allowed to relax intermittently, hence it's better correlated to endurance (or aerobic capacity if you prefer that).
And this after just 3 sessions in 9 days!
I'm interested to see if some gains are twmporary due to reduced volume pushing people towards a bit of a peak
In my research, we observed that finger strength and endurance improved a lot after 4 weeks, but only a bit more in week 10, 2 weeks after the end of training in week 8; this shows us the importance of rest and/or tapering in strength training.However, in week 12, or 4 weeks later the last deadhang session, all gains in finger strength and endurance were lost.
Yup, I love a big claim. I doubt anyone out there will improve their endurance by doing ~5 x 10sec of max hangs. I suppose it depends on your definition of endurance though. I'd like to see you argue for it
Dave's edge is quite a bit more than 11mm. It's most definitely not close maximal force, which is my point. And it most definitely has rests.
Quote from: Dr T on July 25, 2012, 08:51:11 pmAnd this after just 3 sessions in 9 days!I and others have seen rapid gains, but there's no way such quick gains are muscular, it's even very quick for neural gains. It's going to be more interesting to see what happens after 2 or 3 cycles of the programme, I'm betting there's going to be some plateauing and subsequent adjustment needed.
Chatting with Zippy he made the point that these sort of early big gains can only be neural. This suggests that continued gains will require some form of complementary training to stimulate forearm hypertrophy.
I've no idea how big without checking Dave's or Eva's edges are, you were making a point about endurance testing not being done on a wooden edge, I was making the point that that's exactly what Binney does.
Feet on the edge, or the edge has feet?
Firstly they're not max hangs, but that's beside the point. That sort of duration of isometric tension has a well researched history of increasing maximum strength, if you increase maximal strength you increase submaximal endurance by increasing strength headroom. Good review with refs here.I've no idea how big without checking Dave's or Eva's edges are, you were making a point about endurance testing not being done on a wooden edge, I was making the point that that's exactly what Binney does.
Why would they have to be only neural? I would assume that there is a component of both muscle strength gain and neural improvement.
Quote from: Sasquatch on July 25, 2012, 10:32:06 pmWhy would they have to be only neural? I would assume that there is a component of both muscle strength gain and neural improvement. Because of the time scale involved, you're looking at physical gains after about 4 weeks. It may be that part of these early big gains might also be down to pulley stretching, I think I've linked to something on this subject either earlier on this thread or a similar thread.
Because of the time scale involved, you're looking at physical gains after about 4 weeks. It may be that part of these early big gains might also be down to pulley stretching, I think I've linked to something on this subject either earlier on this thread or a similar thread.
Perhaps I should have measured my forearms before I started and the day after each session - forearm circumference is meant to be a pretty good indicator of hypertrophyMaybe someone who hasn't started yet could do it....
In my search, we observed that finger strength and endurance improved a lot after 4 weeks, but only a bit more in week 10, 2 weeks after the end of training in week 8; this shows us the importance of rest and/or tapering in strength training.However, in week 12, or 4 weeks later the last deadhang session, all gains in finger strength and endurance were lost.
The real question is what were the.climbers doing in those 4 weeks? If bouldering and they lost all their 'gains' then the gains sound crappy and somehow not 'real'. If nothing then of course they were shit after 4 weeks doing nothing..
In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training. Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength
In my research, I found that increasing maximum finger strength also increases finger endurance without performing finger endurance training. Also, that this gain is bigger than the one obtained by training only finger endurance without previously having developed a high enough level of maximum finger strength. Also, for climbers with a lower level of maximum strength who want to train specifically their finger strength-endurance, the gains in the latter -as measured by a test of maximum time on an 11 mm edge- will be greater if they first improve their finger maximum strength than if they start training their finger strength-endurance right away (unpublished data, manuscript in preparation). (Edited 2012-07-26 because previous paragraph was incomplete and ambiguous-->Thank you very much to my attentive readers ;-))
@BrokenBennett asked me via twitter: I would like to know (or understand) what you're saying regarding very small edges. Does your method transfer below X mm?MY ANSWER:Look, no exercise transfers to everything, and no correlation in biomedic science is perfect, or equal to 1. This means that one variable can explain part of the variance of another, but never 100% of it. This is why I just can say that there is a correlation (0,79 to be exact) between maximum added weight on a 15 mm edge for 5 seconds and maximum time on a 10 mm edge. There is another interesting and logical result that I found in another study that will be included in my thesis: there is correlation between maximum time in 10 mm and time in 8 and 12 mm; these in turn have correlation with 6 and 14 mm respectively. However, no measure could predict the performance for all edge depths.Lastly, apart from external factors like heat and moisture, when it comes to edges < 5 mm, Bourne et al. (2011) have found a greater relation with anatomical factors, and even skin quality, than with maximum strength. Other authors like MacLeod et al. (2007) have noted the importance of precison in the application of force. Anyway, several authors (Mermier et al., 2000; Balas et al., 2011) have observed that the training variable has great influence on climbing performance, as you will undoubtedly know from your own experience. Best regards and thank you for your interest.BrokenBennett asked me via twitter: I'd like to know how you advocate adding weight, 70% bodyweight from a harness feels very bad for me.MY ANSWER:70% bodyweight is a general approximation, a maximum recommended for male climbers that I have estimated after having supervised the training of more than 50 climbers. But it's always better to figure out your own personal threshold. I have observed people who can hold less weight (about 50% BW) and others wo can hold more (about 80% BW). Trust your sensations and try to use less weight than your back or skin can take. Best regards
MY ANSWER:Look, no exercise transfers to everything, and no correlation in biomedic science is perfect, or equal to 1. This means that one variable can explain part of the variance of another, but never 100% of it. This is why I just can say that there is a correlation (0,79 to be exact) between maximum added weight on a 15 mm edge for 5 seconds and maximum time on a 10 mm edge. There is another interesting and logical result that I found in another study that will be included in my thesis: there is correlation between maximum time in 10 mm and time in 8 and 12 mm; these in turn have correlation with 6 and 14 mm respectively. However, no measure could predict the performance for all edge depths.
Steve is cheating because pulling on tiny edges is all genetics and thus everything with small holds should be given 7a (morpho). Sorted.
