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Topic slit Hubble with kneepad (Read 29616 times)

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#50 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 11:19:30 am
And my fingers are always too broken to pull on
Probably from the strain of pulling those kneepad straps too tight, I imagine.
(Sorry could not resist.)

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#51 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 11:44:04 am
I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad

The pre-emptive humblebrag. I love it.  :lol:

8c+ or 9a isn't cutting edge now though, so why has it become a big deal that there's new beta in the form of a knee bar?

Because British climbers of a certain age fetishise Hubble as both the ultimate route from their formative years and a distillation of the basic-pulling-on-minging-crimps ethos of that era?

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#52 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 12:13:26 pm
If anyone fancies chipping in, I would quite like to buy and convert a Bedford Rascal, signpaint it with ďBACK TO THE OLD SCHOOLĒ in Ninja green, from which Dave can serve steamed broccoli and rent out Lasers, Vectors, those Stone Monkey striped turtlenecks, Think Pink vests and Japanese writing tights.

remus

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#53 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 12:22:04 pm
If anyone fancies chipping in, I would quite like to buy and convert a Bedford Rascal, signpaint it with ďBACK TO THE OLD SCHOOLĒ in Ninja green, from which Dave can serve steamed broccoli and rent out Lasers, Vectors, those Stone Monkey striped turtlenecks, Think Pink vests and Japanese writing tights.

Sign me up.

Perhaps he could also include a lockbox service, where you can store all that food you actually want to eat instead of the broccoli.

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#54 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 12:31:52 pm
For the love of god someone find a subtle but crucial knee-scum on the Oak that drops the grade but that Shark's flippers just don't fit in....

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#55 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 12:39:52 pm
For the love of god someone find a subtle but crucial knee-scum on the Oak that drops the grade but that Shark's flippers just don't fit in....

No. I want it to be a huge jug rest. And I want there to be multiple. I want it to be so that all the hardest hand movements are done off bomber knees. I want it to render the route a 6c that becomes the most popular warm up.

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#56 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 12:42:40 pm
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it.
As a counterpoint, I think it would have been moronic, highly unimpressive, regressive, and involved them climbing a no star eliminate piece of shit (instead of a 1 star non-eliminate ;) ).

So by the same token Jack Pal and others climbing Pilgrimage without kneebars makes them morons?

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#57 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 12:59:22 pm
Yes.

There are an infinite amount of things to climb and a finite amount of time and energy.

Any conscious effort to ignore a technique or beta (handjams/finger locks / heels /knees) on something that is hard for you is daft. Every go or session added is stolen from something else you could be climbing.

The grades don't matter, the lines matter. Do the lines as fast and with all the tricks possible and be honest about how it affects "consensus" grades.

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#58 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 12:59:56 pm
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it.
As a counterpoint, I think it would have been moronic, highly unimpressive, regressive, and involved them climbing a no star eliminate piece of shit (instead of a 1 star non-eliminate ;) ).

So by the same token Jack Pal and others climbing Pilgrimage without kneebars makes them morons?

Even worse . They climb it the nails way but only get 8b

shark

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#59 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 01:09:30 pm
Even worse . They climb it the nails way but only get 8b

Cretins!

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#60 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 01:14:23 pm
Shark, I feel I need to highlight the irony and double-standards of you bitching about a kneepad diminishing the challenge of climbing Hubble - when you've been trying The Oak for ever with the third bolt pre-clipped. That certainly isn't legit for the grade and most people don't do it that way, because they know it isn't necessary (i.e. for 'safety') and it certainly reduces the challenge of the route. Should anyone care except you - no!

On the other hand, the logic behind the line of argument about kneepads being legit equipment advances (while I agree in the case of kneepads) isn't very solid. What are acceptable equipment advances, and what are cheats? It's open to debate.
I pointed this out to Barrows (and his attack poodle) when he did Pilgrimage, that the mixed-climbing game have already been through this same debate with heel spurs on comp boots. It's almost exactly the same line of argument - an equipment advance that makes climbing mixed routes easier. Mixed climbers moved away from wearing heel spurs on comp boots because they turned amazing sought-after previously-hard challenges into a drawn-out series of shake-outs. Climbers can still opt to climb any hard route with heel spurs if they want. By choosing not to they're in effect 'climbing a technique eliminate' as someone put it.

Personally think kneepads make sense now,  perhaps because only some routes accept them. It just means some historic routes will become easier but routes/problems done since the paradigm shift will account for kneepads provided the FA wasn't a luddite.

But the 'legit equipment advance'  logic isn't fine on its own, there's something else in there more nebulous and less logical. Or else, what about little hooks on the kneepads or heels?

Just my 2p.

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#61 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 01:27:37 pm
Boreals with little hooks on the heels already exist.

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#62 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 01:33:18 pm
Having never used a pad before how much difference does it make compared to a knee bar without the pad?  Presumably allows you to take more weight?  Does it get in the way for other moves?

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#63 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 01:42:13 pm
So by the same token Jack Pal and others climbing Pilgrimage without kneebars makes them morons?

It doesn't make them morons... But it does make me think of them as morons. Or as people who like eliminates (aka morons). Or as people who didn't put enough time into finding knees (morons) or short people with short shins (fuckin' midgets, way worse than morons). I give kudos/think they're morons the same as anyone doing any other 8B with an 8B+ sequence (or being forced to by being too small for the easiest beta).

Climbing it without knees because they don't fit is impressive, climbing it without knees if they do is dumb (to me). Like I said, it's a pity if a knee is morpho and makes a big difference, same as it's a pity when anything is morpho in any other really marked way. Some of the Pilgrimage knees may be morpho (the end of RA and the sequence moving right and skipping the undercut match), in which case it's a shame. Though I'd be interested to know if anyone short and into knees has put much time into finding alternatives?

P.S. love you really Jack  :kiss2:


  Or else, what about little hooks on ... heels?
That's basically the anasazi if you buy the right pair. Fat Lip is at least 1 grade easier with a shoe with that kind of hook. But you're definitely right about the broad point - a magic pair of gecko gloves would clearly not be "legit", so there are lines somewhere. Putting rubber on bits of your body as well as shoes - whether via kneepads or crack gloves - seems broadly ok to me.

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#64 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 01:44:14 pm
Having never used a pad before how much difference does it make compared to a knee bar without the pad?  Presumably allows you to take more weight?  Does it get in the way for other moves?

Totally dependent on the nature of the knee bar but they never make them worse in my experience (limited compared to others). On some kneebars with a large surface area of smooth rock the difference is minimal. On most others (marginal ones or incredibly spiky tufas that would destroy your legs otherwise) it makes a massive difference.

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#65 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 01:45:32 pm
Shark, I feel I need to highlight the irony and double-standards of you bitching about a kneepad diminishing the challenge of climbing Hubble - when you've been trying The Oak for ever with the third bolt pre-clipped. That certainly isn't legit for the grade and most people don't do it that way, because they know it isn't necessary (i.e. for 'safety') and it certainly reduces the challenge of the route. Should anyone care except you - no!

Plenty have climbed the Oak for a long time before I even first tried it and subsequently with the 3rd pre-clipped so itís established as a legit way to climb the route. Iíll take your word that itís not legit at the grade. I know and have acknowledged itís  flawed. Crucially Iím not the first to try it that way.

Itís when something first gets done a new way that it can be in limbo. Buster certainly had qualms. Mat wouldnít have raised as a topic of conversation if he was 100%. Obviously they are going to justify it now. If Buster had done it without the legitimacy of Mats ascent might have been knocked and subsequent y it might have been recognised that Hubble wasnít a route you did with kneepads.

It looks like it hasnít gone that way though who knows what views others trying it will do. Iíd love Shauna to do it per se (I gather she got close) but without pads would be even better. 

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#66 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 01:54:19 pm
Itís when something first gets done a new way that it can be in limbo.... it might have been recognised that Hubble wasnít a route you did with kneepads.

I don't buy this at all, you're in a Brexit-esque "in my day" fantasy land. Can you name any other route/problem anywhere in the world where this has happened? Or the equivalent with people routinely avoiding cams, chalk, modern shoes etc? (Clearly some entire regions have certain ethics, e.g. knot protection or no chalk or no rap-bolting, but we're talking about a crag where everyone is climbing other routes and problems with knees)

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#67 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 01:58:45 pm
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it.
As a counterpoint, I think it would have been moronic, highly unimpressive, regressive, and involved them climbing a no star eliminate piece of shit (instead of a 1 star non-eliminate ;) ).

So by the same token Jack Pal and others climbing Pilgrimage without kneebars makes them morons?

In hindsight Iíd have to say yes it does. I never even found out which of the ones iíd fit into on pilgrimage, pretty naive. I do at least know I canít fit the Trigger cut ones but I only bothered to find out after doing directors etc. Alex did warn me!

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#68 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 02:03:09 pm
If you think Buster and Matt's ascents are dodgy, you should see how much difference the left kneebar makes for shorties!

So here's what's interesting. We can all agree that Shark is both hypocritical and moronic. Clearly, I'd never even think about not using that kneebar. But I did feel a little bit sad/dirty when I realised how well the knee works. There's some bit of "the-Hubble-that-lives-in-my-head" that was the undercut match, and that bit of Hubble died.

So it is sort of a shame when it happens, but you'd be an idiot not to use it.

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#69 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 02:05:48 pm
Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?

Seems like a similar case to Peewee and his two 8Bs in that other thread.

(Not trying to have a dig at you Jack btw :))

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#70 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 02:08:24 pm
So is this realistically the end of the claim for Hubble as the first 9a I wonder? Or is it technically the first 9a because the sequence Moon used was harder than the current one?  :blink: :blink: :blink:

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#71 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 02:10:02 pm
Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?

Seems like a similar case to Peewee and his two 8Bs in that other thread.

(Not trying to have a dig at you Jack btw :))

If an easier sequence already exists but you choose to use a harder one I don't think you get to take a higher grade do you? If you do it the hard way before a hold breaks/someone works something out its probably different. Interesting question though

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#72 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 02:15:18 pm
<shark on the Oak quip>
Simon, is your main motivation for being on this no-knee-pad-on-Hubble ethical high horse that it makes it easier to preclip the third bolt from up there?
<End quip>

Clearly, I'd never even think about not using that kneebar. But I did feel a little bit sad/dirty when I realised how well the knee works. There's some bit of "the-Hubble-that-lives-in-my-head" that was the undercut match, and that bit of Hubble died.

So it is sort of a shame when it happens, but you'd be an idiot not to use it.

I can totally get that, and to be fair I imagine that is what Simon feels has been lost. I remember trying a problem on the cromlech boulders twenty years ago, getting really close after half an hour, then realising there was a jug in the middle of the crux which I had totally missed. Using the jug felt like a hollow victory, but hey ho. The Hubble of twenty years ago isn't the same as it is now, but knee pads are only one reason for that amongst better training, better shoes, lighter ropes, more people climbing, chalk with drying agents, harnesses you don't have to double back...

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#73 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 02:19:44 pm
So it is sort of a shame when it happens, but you'd be an idiot not to use it.
Sums it up well.

Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?
That depends on many things.. mostly, what does a grading scale mean to you? If it's about demonstrating the difficulty you're able to climb then maybe yes, but this leads down a dumb avenue because then people can also "take" grades on the School Board, the Moon board, or a regulation campus board. If it's about describing the difficulty of climbing a certain bit of rock (which IMO is what it should be) then we move onto the next set of Qs..

How morpho are the knees?
In a world/on a problem where the knees are not morpho, then the answer is no. #biggradesforbadbeta I can't climb something that everyone thinks is 7C with shit beta and say it's 8A, because it's demonstrably not (in the sense that there's a broad consensus that it's 7C).
If it's morpho (probably is on Pilgrimage) then we're back to the eternal question - if you have a morpho problem that's 8B for tall people and 8B+ for short people then what grade should you give it and what can people "take".. and how do you create morphologically-invariant problems to act as a benchmark.. and reminds us that grades don't really make that much sense.

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#74 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 02:44:07 pm
Quote from: some young gun in 10 year's time
Plenty have climbed Hubble for a long time before I even first tried it and subsequently with the kneebar so itís established as a legit way to climb the route. Iíll take your word that itís not legit at the grade. I know and have acknowledged itís  flawed. Crucially Iím not the first to try it that way.

I wonder who that pioneer was who first did the Oak with the 3rd bolt pre-clipped and thus opened the door for Shark to (not) get up it.

 

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