[User deactivated]

Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?

Seems like a similar case to Peewee and his two 8Bs in that other thread.

(Not trying to have a dig at you Jack btw )

Nah fair enough. And yeah downgrade by all means. I was fresh ish to the climbing game and very inexperienced when I did those things. The cave was basically the first place I went when I started climbing outside and I didn’t really put much thought in to how I operated. Nowadays having had my eyes opened by much better climbers than me, I’m often on the look out for alternate beta from minute one.

[Zods Beard]

<shark on the Oak quip>
Simon, is your main motivation for being on this no-knee-pad-on-Hubble ethical high horse that it makes it easier to preclip the third bolt from up there?
<End quip>

The shocking truth behind this quip is a ladder was used to get on said high horse.

[teestub]

Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?

Seems like a similar case to Peewee and his two 8Bs in that other thread.

(Not trying to have a dig at you Jack btw )

Nah fair enough. And yeah downgrade by all means.

I think as Barrows alluded to this depends on how morpho the knees on Pilgrimage are. If those knees are only available to those with the dimensions of a baby giraffe, then it seems like a bit of a harsh deal that the grade would be affected by one ascent. I think there’s room for commentary on such situations.  This seems entirely different to pretending a knee bar opportunity doesn’t exist because you want to pretend it’s still the ‘90’s for some reason.

On Hubble it seems a lot more clear cut, there’s only one place to get a knee in and there would appear to be options for a variety of sizes.

[Bonjoy]

So it is sort of a shame when it happens, but you'd be an idiot not to use it.

Sums it up well.

Off topic, but can Jack still "take" the 8B+ tick for Pilgrimage even though it has technically (see what I did there) been downgraded?

That depends on many things.. mostly, what does a grading scale mean to you? If it's about demonstrating the difficulty you're able to climb then maybe yes, but this leads down a dumb avenue because then people can also "take" grades on the School Board, the Moon board, or a regulation campus board. If it's about describing the difficulty of climbing a certain bit of rock (which IMO is what it should be) then we move onto the next set of Qs..

How morpho are the knees?
In a world/on a problem where the knees are not morpho, then the answer is no. #biggradesforbadbeta I can't climb something that everyone thinks is 7C with shit beta and say it's 8A, because it's demonstrably not (in the sense that there's a broad consensus that it's 7C).
If it's morpho (probably is on Pilgrimage) then we're back to the eternal question - if you have a morpho problem that's 8B for tall people and 8B+ for short people then what grade should you give it and what can people "take".. and how do you create morphologically-invariant problems to act as a benchmark.. and reminds us that grades don't really make that much sense.

Quite.
I came to the conclusion a while ago that the only accurate form of grading would be an n-dimensional graph, with grade on one axis and all confounding variable on the other axes.

[Will Hunt]

There's some nuance in kneebars that I don't think comes across in the thread. People talk about them like the addition of any kneebar or scum is tantamount to the addition of a jug mid-route. It's not as simple as that.
Some shit knees would require massive amounts of core and leg strength to work. They might be difficult to get into or out of. I can imagine certain limited circumstances where a route could be climbed by two sequences - one "standard" sequence that might get 8c and another "kneebar" sequence which makes the hand movements slightly easier but involves "8c level kneebarring". A normal climber might favour the standard sequence and not be able to do the knee thing; a kneebar specialist with weaker fingers might favour the knee method. Kind of like Pete Whittaker managing the crux of Silence with really technical jamming and Ondra acknowledging that but pointing out that getting into and out of that sequence would be harder - but you do turn the crux of Silence into something that Whittaker could work out in a single dogging session... 

Basically, just because there's some knee scumming going on it doesn't necessarily mean that Hubble is now piss or even an easier grade.

I like this illustration of just how hard knee-barring can be:




Please keep making jokes. This thread is gold.

[Will Hunt]

I reminded of an anecdote from, I think, The Hard Years where Brown and Whillans knocked literally days off the previous fastest time for a route in Chamonix because they'd jammed the cracks instead of laybacking them.
I'd like to think that they walked into the cafe in the evening after setting off that morning and nobody believed that they'd done the route. I bet the French were disgusted that their hardest route had been ruined by people with poor ethical leadership.

[Bonjoy]

I thought we'd bottomed this one out in 2014 after McColl's ascent.

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24273.msg448676.html#msg448676
To quote myself:

Is it a damn shame if Hubble can be made easier using a kneebar? Yes.
Would such a state of affairs diminish the route somewhat? I guess so.
Would it be kind of nice if everyone who went on Hubble never thought to try using a kneepad? Maybe.
Would this piss me off it I was Ben Moon? Yes. I'm always a bit annoyed when people find easier ways to climb things I've put up.
Is there anything you can sensibly do about it? No.
Should arbitrary rules be invented and observed on a route by route basis to avoid such disappointments? No.
Does it invalidate an ascent? No.
Is Dense's claim that kneepads shouldn't be used on older routes make sense because people didn't have kneepads back then? No. In part because it's too arbitrary and complex to make any sense or police in the long run, but mostly because climbers DID make and use kneepads well before commercial products existed.

You can't just make up crazy rules to preserve the simplicity of the historical record or the importance of past achievements. By all means use split grades for with without, but don't presume to tell people not to use bits of their body on climbs.
The arguments in play here are pretty much the same arguments that are used to attack people who use bouldering mats to highball climbs which once had big e numbers. It a classic tail wagging the dog scenario.

[abarro81]

I thought we'd bottomed this one out in 2014 after McColl's ascent.

Yeah, I think everyone other than Simon and DT are on the same page on this thread

[andy popp]

I'm so old that I actually saw someone using a hemp rope not long after I started climbing. I'm depressed by how good everyone now is at using their heels (and the shoes they do it in). And I still think Dave and Shark's stance on this is ridiculous.

[remus]

There's some nuance in kneebars that I don't think comes across in the thread. People talk about them like the addition of any kneebar or scum is tantamount to the addition of a jug mid-route. It's not as simple as that.

I think this is a key difference between knee bars and heel spurs in dry tooling. Knee bars dont automatically make everything easier, and to get the most out of knee bars requires a lot of skill (same as good toe hooking technique for example.) The impression I get is that heel spurs are relatively straightforward to use and almost always make a big difference to the difficulty, like adding a juggy hands off knee bar in the middle of loads of routes where it didnt previously exist. All a matter of degrees I guess.

[danm]

Shark, how did you get up onto that high horse, ground up or using a ladder? 

[mrjonathanr]

 Knee bars dont automatically make everything easier, and to get the most out of knee bars requires a lot of skill (same as good toe hooking technique for example.)

Climbing difficult things requires skill? 

[mrjonathanr]

I'm so old that I actually saw someone using a hemp rope not long after I started climbing. I'm depressed by how good everyone now is at using their heels (and the shoes they do it in). And I still think Dave and Shark's stance on this is ridiculous.

First ropes I used were hemp ropes 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Sorry, trying my own cut/paste from Sig Repeats.

With a side of judgement and you're trying to argue Dave's point that he shouldn't take the route. 

That's like the old tradsters bi^&*ing about the youngsters.  Except you're the old sportster bi^&*ing. 

We deal with the technology and circumstance that we have, and if we are being forthright then we disclose everything and go with it.  He's not hiding anything.  He's being honest and that's good enough for me.

Sorry for the late post.

Hi Mr Squatch 

I'm not saying "he shouldn't take the route". I'm not applying black/white thinking, just trying to establish the facts, while also trying to make sure we're not comparing apples (cheaper) with oranges (more expensive .. maybe  ).

I think it's a good thing to try to develop.

I'm a big fan of Matt, and find what he's been doing really refreshing. Andy F, I'm referencing your post from earlier, but being really lazy. Sorry. I'll try to post up a reply properly.

What's more important, is that people don't start claiming Woodology at the school, with "any feet", then the bottom really would drop out of the market.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

And..

Further more, and to hopefully keep on topic with Significant Repeats, ascents of routes like Hubble with the pad, ARE significant, because that's what's being traded currently.

I don't think Significant Repeats should be just about usurping the old, with something harder (or, er .. easier  ), but about being more conscious of what's going down out there; it should be less of a competition about what's significant/insignificant.

Hope that's OK.

[Sasquatch]

Sorry for the late post.

Hi Mr Squatch 

I'm not saying "he shouldn't take the route". I'm not applying black/white thinking, just trying to establish the facts, while also trying to make sure we're not comparing apples (cheaper) with oranges (more expensive .. maybe  ).

I think it's a good thing to try to develop.

I'm a big fan of Matt, and find what he's been doing really refreshing. Andy F, I'm referencing your post from earlier, but being really lazy. Sorry. I'll try to post up a reply properly.

What's more important, is that people don't start claiming Woodology at the school, with "any feet", then the bottom really would drop out of the market.

...
Always good to know the quality of the gold you're trading  - and I think the significance of any ascent works that way. I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

I get that you're saying you wouldn't and that is technically different than saying he shouldn't. But it certainly implies a judgement of it.

I'm glad you've clarified it...  The first post seemed pretty judgemental, while the second seems less so to me. 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Ha ha! I was going to post "is no one else reading this at 2.13a.m. - although it isn't for you.

My post could be considered "judgemental" in that it comes across as me saying "it's not the real deal" (could even be considered a fallacy. I think it's known as "The No True Hubble Fallacy"  ). But that isn't my point, and I don't think it's Simon's either.

I am excited to hear about a new repeat of Hubble, but not so, about it with a pad - though it remains significant. Yes, I do feel there's more "currency" in a repeat the old way, and some may take issue with that. But if it wasn't harder that way, people wouldn't be looking for ways of making it easier.

It was good (sorry!) to see Shauna Coxey working it without a pad, but then she probably has smaller fingers, as well as lighter weight, talent and finesse. I mean, what a low down, cheating so and so!   

I don't think it's enough to just say that climber x is being honest about their tactics, though that's always great. It's a community thing. The fact that technology is always improving emphasises that routes are not fixed "things", they are changing with that technology; it's not a case of exchanging one old given with a new one.

That things aren't "given" , is probably greater reason for differentiating between styles of ascent. There are routes/problems where wearing extra rubber makes more of a difference. Hubble is probably a good example.

If we zoom out a bit - or just use a crap telescope - then where you go from the top of the groove on Mecca, could be considered much of a much-ness, but we have the ability to differentiate. I'm sure that as soon as "padded" ascents of Mecca stop being reported, we'll have more people trying it without.

[Doylo]

Thought I’d share my hard luck story since its recent and on topic (get yer kleenex ready). Had nearly 50 days on Louis Armstrong in Parisellas since 2017. Pretty much the short hard test piece in there. Done crux over 30 time’s, from 2 moves in, been close to holding crux from start etc..Everyone who’s done it since the Fa 13 years ago has done this nails undercut crux (barring (pun) Barrows who surprisingly didn’t find this new kneebar, he did lank it another way though but still fairly hard). Recently Joe Lawson did it kneebarring the crux slap. It’s not like Hubble where’s it’s a bit easier with the kneepad, it’s several grades easier. Instead of a single 7C+ move it’s a static reach to lip. I’ve never tried the knee but fairly sure I’d be able to, no interest in using it as heavily invested in the original way after all that effort, seeing the FA and all the beasts on it over the years; has meaning to me etc.. I’d get nothing out of doing it with the challenge gone, have considered just carrying on as normal but the shines well and truly been taken off and considering the massive amounts of effort it’d take it’d be hard to motivate now it’s compromised. So looking at writing off all that time/ effort. If that hasn’t got you in tears yet then I spent 700 quid to get my hard drive fixed when my kid knocked it over (to get the Louis footage back). Plus was injured for 5 months this year after overtraining for it. C’est la vie I guess ...

[abarro81]

Knee in the blob you undercut? I tried but struggled to fit my baby giraffe shin in the gap.. very possible I missed a foothold though.

DT - as I said earlier, I think there's less currency in climbing shit eliminates. Also, padded ascents of Mecca haven't ever been news and not many people bother going padless so the point your trying to make there is clearly erroneous

[Doylo]

Knee in the blob you undercut? I tried but struggled to fit my baby giraffe shin in the gap.. very possible I missed a foothold though.

Don’t know actually. Must be

[lagerstarfish]

this thread has cheered me up

 

proper 2020 stuff

thanks lads

[tomtom]

Anyway - who hacked UKC? My moneys on DT as he was up posting at 2am

[Murph]

Strong thread this. My tuppence.

I once asked Ron what he thought of people doing Careless Torque above a bunch of pads after what he did for the FA.

To paraphrase: "It's all good. I'm glad they are out there doing it."

Obviously (!) its a different proposition without pads. Different pads, I know, but still. But thats how it goes now.

More respect to you if you can do it the hard way but that isn't how it goes these days. See also Brad Pitt and a million other problems.

Grades and descriptions should reflect the easiest way though.

[petejh]

Interesting story about Louis. (you should have got stronger and done it quicker)

Climbing's a game, with rules to keep it interesting. Why not kneebars for indoor comps? According to some people here they're climbing in a moronic eliminate style after all..
I suppose the obvious answer is that the 'perfect' hard route would require kneebar(s) but still be nails hard, and impossible without them.

I guess the lure of 'collecting' routes with high numbers attached is stronger than the lure of climbing them in a certain eliminate style. Just a shame for those classic hard challenges to lose their lustre.

[Nibile]

I sincerely don't get Stu's and Doylo's attitude. The original Hubble and the original Louis are still there, who cares how people climb them?
Climbing is an individual task, I'd only be more motivated to do things in a certain way, by people doing them in another way that I don't like, especially in a historical context.
Not that I climb anymore.
Never Leave The Board^TM.