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Topic slit Hubble with kneepad (Read 29616 times)

Andy F

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#100 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 09:40:16 am
Climbing, like everything, evolves.
If Brown and Whillans had cams they'd have used them.
If Ron had pads he'd have used them.
If Basher had a knee pad he'd have used it.

They didn't, so they climbed it in the best way of the time. Just because we have more advanced kit and techniques doesn't take away from previous ascents, or denigrate future ascents. It's the way the game changes.

Doylo

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#101 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 09:57:45 am
I sincerely don't get Stu's and Doylo's attitude. The original Hubble and the original Louis are still there, who cares how people climb them?
Climbing is an individual task, I'd only be more motivated to do things in a certain way, by people doing them in another way that I don't like, especially in a historical context.
Not that I climb anymore.
Never Leave The BoardTM.

Because itís lost itís purity. Was a pure hard testpiece, aspirational etc.  Itís not the same if you know youíre doing it a knowingly harder way. Plus not like I donít use kneepads (Directors etc).

Bradders

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#102 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 10:07:39 am
So looking at writing off all that time/ effort.

No way, why would you do that?! Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to give up on it to me. The challenge is still there, it's not changed, only your perception of it has. Stick with it.

abarro81

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#103 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 10:13:40 am
Why not kneebars for indoor comps? According to some people here they're climbing in a moronic eliminate style after all..
Um.. People do use pads in comps (unless rules have changed recently) - I've defo seen Ondra and Jan with a pad on in comps.

I guess the lure of 'collecting' routes with high numbers attached is stronger than the lure of climbing them in a certain eliminate style. Just a shame for those classic hard challenges to lose their lustre.
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010

Doylo

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#104 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 10:19:10 am
So looking at writing off all that time/ effort.

No way, why would you do that?! Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to give up on it to me. The challenge is still there, it's not changed, only your perception of it has. Stick with it.

Just how I feel, canít shake it. Maybe one day. Plus given the massive effort that would be needed to get back to it is hard if psyche is compromised. I havenít had biceps since the injury, arms are like pipe cleaners now.

petejh

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#105 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 11:44:36 am
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010

You've misinterpreted me, I'm not having any dig at anybody, wipe some cream on that sensitive spot.
Kneepads make sense to me, and so do people's feelings of disappointment that a challenge they aspired to complete because they perceived it being one thing now seems somehow less appealing because they perceive it being something else. What's the saying... - 'all lived experience is valid'. You shouldn't just tell someone who feels disappointed that they're wrong, they aren't.

DAVETHOMAS90

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#106 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 01:15:28 pm
Your dig at people using knees to 'collect' big numbers falls apart when you realise that the only people "taking" a big number for Pilgrimage, or anything else downgraded with knees, are the ones not using knees. If you think something needs downgrading then climb it and downgrade it. But  yeah, the lure of climbing something obvious instead of an eliminate is usually higher. Always has been and always will be. The hard classic loses its lustre more by being an eliminate than by having a knee and being easier IMO (and clearly that of many others). But we're going round it circles here, and have been since about 2010

You've misinterpreted me, I'm not having any dig at anybody, wipe some cream on that sensitive spot.
Kneepads make sense to me, and so do people's feelings of disappointment that a challenge they aspired to complete because they perceived it being one thing now seems somehow less appealing because they perceive it being something else. What's the saying... - 'all lived experience is valid'. You shouldn't just tell someone who feels disappointed that they're wrong, they aren't.

Seems a very reasonable position.

Sometimes, we also want to try to put ourselves in the "lived experience" of others too - including trying to emulate the way that they did things.

I think it's too simplistic to say that if present technology was available to climbers in the past, they'd use it - and by that, I also include new Beta.

More than just getting to the top, climbing seems to be about wanting to feel more "involved"/connected, and we all have preferred vehicles/ways to get to that place.

Using some crappy little spike on an eliminate at Minus 10 might require that I have to let go of myself more, to do a move. Surely the sweetness you access when you latch the move after 100 tries, is the point. If the spike snaps off, and you're left with a solid edge, that allows you to get to the top of "the problem" every time, even when you're climbing badly, then chances are, you might feel that something has been lost.

Isn't "the problem" really "Self" - and letting go of it?

The reason I wouldn't claim Hubble with a knee pad, is simply because that isn't the source of my inspiration. The photo of Ben on it very much might be! .. and everything he's having to release into the effort.

There are old problems in the Peak, with new holds, that I try to do again using the original sequence. I don't gain anything by using the new holds and method.

I do use knee bars on routes, and I have to decide if it's contrived not to put something grippier on my knees. To me, it feels like more of a cheat to add tape and padding - in the way that I prefer to try difficult jamming cracks without tape first. Without ropes (still processing that one) even better. Sometimes I wear clothes.

A couple of other points.
I very rarely climb with modern smaller cams on my harness, for the same reason that I don't have a bouldering mat. Rather than it being better, I feel I'm required to climb better.

Lastly, and this one is for Lore. I feel a little bit uncomfortable, suspecting that I'd have probably crashed my bike already, if I was using original equipment/non-sticky tyres, rather than the super sticky Bridgestones that are fitted!  ;D

DAVETHOMAS90

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#107 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 01:35:42 pm

DT - as I said earlier, I think there's less currency in climbing shit eliminates. Also, padded ascents of Mecca haven't ever been news and not many people bother going padless so the point your trying to make there is clearly erroneous

Barrows, you miss my point. Sorry. By "currency", I'm not talking about the "thing in itself", but what's exchanged/shared. By referencing Mecca, I wasn't implying that it's "news worthy", but that everything is an eliminate at a particular scale.

Hubble isn't a bad eliminate  ;D

Doylo, thanks for your story. I completely understand why some of the magic has been lost. Maybe you could use Louis for training, and that way, you'll probably do it!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 01:55:28 pm by DAVETHOMAS90 »

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#108 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 01:36:39 pm
Just a couple of anecdotes for what will probably sound like a confused post:

The most recent I can think of is Kipchogeís sub 2 hour marathon being so widely discredited/vilified, because of his energy returning shoes, that itís now seen to have been removed from the history books.

 Then thereís the swimsuit debate from the early 2010s when the drag reducing materials were band in competition wear.

 Eddie Halls 500kg vs Thorís 500kg. The same achievement but under different conditions. Thorís stands behind it but most of everyone else suggests because it wasnít done in competition conditions blah blah blah...

 I think the argument hear sounds a lot like the hour record in cycling. Was it 2012/13 when someone finally decided that people didnít have to ride on an old steel pushbike Ďjust like Eddy Merckxí and could in fact utilise the technology available to push things forward.

 I think climbing has a long way to go before the first three points I made and is probably at the point cycling was at when time trial bars came along. Ultimately people will accept knee pads eventually and will move onto moaning about the next new bit of technology. Energy returning gloves to reduce crimp fatigue? Who knows.

kac

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#109 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 01:52:09 pm
An interesting personal perspective dave. I can just about understand as although I think your bonkers for not using the good footholds on powerband ive got no interest in lanking past the last move for just the reason you describe. Also good to hear you sometimes wear clothes. Perhaps another ethics debate needed as to whether it should be always!

DAVETHOMAS90

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#110 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 02:23:27 pm
That's a really good example of course - the last move on Powerband  :thumbsup:

(Maybe Doylo can take inspiration from that too!)

Different names for different methods; Powerband Vs Powerspanned/Powerless.

Most of the time I'm *just* trying to train, and not wanting to "try/do" a particular problem - only because I know what level I'm at at the moment, and trying to get some strength back!

The rest of the time, I'm just scared that I still won't be able to repeat things using an easier sequence!  ;D

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#111 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 04:56:02 pm
Makes me wonder what the future axioms of acceptable 'free climbing' aids are. Off the top of my head it would be something like "only form preserving augmentations to the body" no 'un-natural modifications'. In the sense that climbing shoes are feet shaped and just make feet more grippy / provide more tension. Knee bar pads are a smooth covering of the knee/thigh and don't change the shape. Just makes what is already there more grippy....then comes the matter of augmenting the hands. Chalk / jamming gloves are the current here is guess.
What about some sort of grippy skin you could paint on and peel off afterwards? I guess this is still preserving the natural form of the hand? I guess the above logic excludes clearly obvious non natural modifications like hooks but there is still a grey area.

Obviously this thought has been echoed a million times but it requires some genuine consideration at some point!



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#112 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 05:24:35 pm
In my (very) limited experience - a knee pad doesnít so much make youíre knee/leg grippier, more that it stops you making a big hole in your leg/trousers!

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#113 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 05:29:37 pm
Thoughts & Prayers 4 Doylo tho x

oldfella

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#114 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 06:03:42 pm
Iím surprised no one has mentioned chalk vs no chalk debate yet. Also smearing hands in liquid chalk for performance enhancing skin properties.  :worms: :worms: :worms:
 :popcorn:

mrjonathanr

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#115 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 06:27:07 pm
Pof

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#116 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 06:41:18 pm
Thought Iíd share my hard luck story since its recent and on topic (get yer kleenex ready). Had nearly 50 days on Louis Armstrong in Parisellas since 2017.  Recently Joe Lawson did it kneebarring the crux slap. Cíest la vie I guess ...
this was trigger cut for me innit

petejh

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#117 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 07:11:59 pm
Thoughts & Prayers 4 Doylo tho x

Least heís able to articulate his pain in montage form with dicks and helicopters and wads eating baguettes.

Doylo

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#118 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 07:31:51 pm
Thought Iíd share my hard luck story since its recent and on topic (get yer kleenex ready). Had nearly 50 days on Louis Armstrong in Parisellas since 2017.  Recently Joe Lawson did it kneebarring the crux slap. Cíest la vie I guess ...
this was trigger cut for me innit

Set up a counselling service for those affected?

Rob F

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#119 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 07:40:46 pm
Good effort for doing all those non kneebar moves carrying the extra weight. Must be a little harder due to this???

Just looked up my Moonboard app to see if can provide any clarity on this situation.

Rule 9/ Matching and heel hooking is permitted.

Sadly nothing about knee bars here...

Doylo

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#120 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 07:41:58 pm
Thought Iíd share my hard luck story since its recent and on topic (get yer kleenex ready). Had nearly 50 days on Louis Armstrong in Parisellas since 2017.  Recently Joe Lawson did it kneebarring the crux slap. Cíest la vie I guess ...
this was trigger cut for me innit

I vote to blow the fucker up. Preferably with the scousers and brummies in situ.

tomtom

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#121 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 08:51:29 pm
I vote to blow the fucker up. Preferably with the scousers and brummies in situ.

What was that war film - where the Ďexplosives maní was a plummy English eccentric who shaped some charges like turds... carried all his bombs in a suitcase. Grimer will know...

Anyway - that would seem appropriate:D

Doylo

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#122 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 17, 2020, 09:14:01 pm
Was only a joke, I like the scousers. Apart from that posh twat MikePsyche but heís from the Wirral anyway. 

36chambers

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#123 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 08:57:39 am
Just christen the new version as Louis ArmWeak.

That should help psychologically detached the two problems and hopefully put off anyone else from climbing the new problem.

petejh

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#124 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 18, 2020, 10:07:55 am
Could rename the kneebar cheaty supplementary-aid method Lance Armstrong....

 

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