[remus]

Its interesting at the moment to see DaveM  and Grecian promoting weight loss as an athletic gains tool.

Personally I think this is an unfair characterisation (based on what I've seen on their various yt channels etc anyway). Dave M in particular always seems to preface anything he says with "I just like discussing nutrition and experimenting with different strategies for myself", to the point it's actually quite annoying!

I think it's important to be able to discuss nutrition in a balanced way, out in the public eye, as otherwise it becomes taboo which makes it harder again to raise it with someone where you think there may be an issue.

[Liamhutch89]

There must be some truth to certain individuals handling calorie restriction better than others. E.g. I am not one of those people - my power falls off a cliff if I go below c.3000 kcals per day! Performing on sub-1,200 seems outrageous to me, but it obviously works for some.

Either way, calorie restriction at a level which still allows for high-level performance is probably no more unhealthy than the average person in the UK who overeats.

[Oldmanmatt]

There must be some truth to certain individuals handling calorie restriction better than others. E.g. I am not one of those people - my power falls off a cliff if I go below c.3000 kcals per day! Performing on sub-1,200 seems outrageous to me, but it obviously works for some.

Either way, calorie restriction at a level which still allows for high-level performance is probably no more unhealthy than the average person in the UK who overeats.

If I drop to 1900/2000 a day, I shed around 700/750g a week.
Dieting (or, at least, losing weight) is not an issue or hardship for me.

[mrjonathanr]

Calorific needs vary widely between people. Liam, haven’t you posted about shifting some heavy weights I think? Muscle is metabolic tissue, you need to fuel its energy consumption.

High level performance/calorie restriction... well how long for? A permanently sustainable level? That’s healthy eating, surely? Short term gain- that’s not.

Seems like this could do with being its own thread. Really good topic to discuss sensibly, but not good at all IMO that celebrating the hardest female ascent ever has become a thread about dieting. Don’t read too many female voices here either.

[Oldmanmatt]

Yes.

Thread split would be good.

Quite a way back? So it seems less “undermining” of AE’s rather impressive achievements?

Anyway, I can recommend one single activity for shedding weight, without changing  your dietary intake a jot (sorry, insta post for simplicity).
Stick 15-20kg in a Bergan and find some steepish hills:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGw4HIVjyf1/?igshid=v4524d3l06ec

[Bradders]

I don't think anyone is undermining the Angy's achievement at all, in fact everything posted here has been very thoughtful and caring i think, but it is uncomfortable still.

[webbo]

Yes.

Thread split would be good.

Quite a way back? So it seems less “undermining” of AE’s rather impressive achievements?

Anyway, I can recommend one single activity for shedding weight, without changing  your dietary intake a jot (sorry, insta post for simplicity).
Stick 15-20kg in a Bergan and find some steepish hills:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGw4HIVjyf1/?igshid=v4524d3l06ec

According to my heart rate monitor which I know is a blunt tool. I will burn off more calories on a three hour road ride, roughly 500 to 600 an hour. Matt you need to acknowledge you are middle-aged and get a bike.

[Oldmanmatt]

Yes.

Thread split would be good.

Quite a way back? So it seems less “undermining” of AE’s rather impressive achievements?

Anyway, I can recommend one single activity for shedding weight, without changing  your dietary intake a jot (sorry, insta post for simplicity).
Stick 15-20kg in a Bergan and find some steepish hills:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGw4HIVjyf1/?igshid=v4524d3l06ec

According to my heart rate monitor which I know is a blunt tool. I will burn off more calories on a three hour road ride, roughly 500 to 600 an hour. Matt you need to acknowledge you are middle-aged and get a bike.

Do you have any concept of how dangerous that shit is?

Safer to go blindfold wingsuit jumping, in a hurricane, without a chute.

A gentle jog trot in beautiful scenery with a little “safety gear” on your back and you hardly even know you’re exercising.
 
Anyway, road bikes are for sissies, I prefer trashing my Kona, knees, elbows, face and spine into trees, boulders, roots and unexpectedly low branches...

[AMorris]

I don't think anyone is undermining the Angy's achievement at all, in fact everything posted here has been very thoughtful and caring i think, but it is uncomfortable still.

I agree, no one person is. However it is worth pointing out that this one discussion now takes up twice as much space as the entire conversation about Angies achievements since she became the first woman to climb 9b. No one person is undermining her achievements, but I think the entire discussion is.

It’s a topic that warrants a thread of it’s own, since as you say, it makes for uncomfortable reading here. 

[Danny]

Spot on AMorris. Think of all the imaciated men doing top end stuff on the reg. Plenty of opportunities to discuss disordered eating. And yet as soon as it's a woman we're instantly 5 pages deep in opinions. I recall the same thing happened with Puccio on here a while back. Step back from the individual contributions--which are all fine--and it's not OK. IMO.

[Davo]

Personally having read all the thread I don’t think being a woman is the important issue being discussed (although it clearly impacts women’s health more seriously than men’s in general- I am aware there are exceptions). Most of the comments and discussion has been pretty fair and open and only a couple of bits about her general looks have made me feel uncomfortable.

I basically agree with abarro’s comments earlier on and think that even if her weight and body mass index is not an issue for her (I think this unlikely) it certainly would be for most women and if I had a daughter (I have a young son) I would not be keen for her to see that video without a long discussion about the dangers of extreme weight loss.

I would feel the same if I saw a video of top end male climber looking the same way.

I think splitting the thread is a good idea

Dave

[gme]

Spot on AMorris. Think of all the imaciated men doing top end stuff on the reg. Plenty of opportunities to discuss disordered eating. And yet as soon as it's a woman we're instantly 5 pages deep in opinions. I recall the same thing happened with Puccio on here a while back. Step back from the individual contributions--which are all fine--and it's not OK. IMO.

Show some photos of men that look emaciated and I will comment on that as well.
And if Puccio hasn’t got a problem she presents an image that causes one, as do many of the insta generation both male and female. Is it possible to maintain such low levels of body fat healthily?  I don’t see much science saying you can.

This has nothing to do with it being women and everything to do with some honesty about what you need to do to get as cut as that and the potential side effects it has. You can then make an educated decision as to whether you think it’s worth the risk.

It’s open discussion and honesty we need.

Elite sport has now developed to such a level where it is starting to be unhealthy and those involved are having long term problems once there “careers” are over. Look at Rugby at the minute. My youngest plays at a reasonable level and has no intention of stopping despite all of the reports on the long term damage it might be doing to his brain, but the important thing is he knows what the risks are and what the long term outcomes might be. He can then make his own decision about if those risks are worth it.

This is what is needed with the weight issue I feel exists in climbing.


 

[mrjonathanr]

I would not disagree with that but would question whether a thread to celebrate AE’s incredible achievement is the best place for it.

[A.Greenhorne]

Did anyone point out that the video is dull as shit yet? I fast forwarded to the action and was sorely disappointed. I’d be surprised if anyone stuck it out long enough to be inspired to lose weight. Hardly heroin chic on the catwalk

[A.Greenhorne]

Its interesting at the moment to see DaveM  and Grecian promoting weight loss as an athletic gains tool.

Personally I think this is an unfair characterisation (based on what I've seen on their various yt channels etc anyway). Dave M in particular always seems to preface anything he says with "I just like discussing nutrition and experimenting with different strategies for myself", to the point it's actually quite annoying!

I think it's important to be able to discuss nutrition in a balanced way, out in the public eye, as otherwise it becomes taboo which makes it harder again to raise it with someone where you think there may be an issue.

Dave Mac keeps himself relevant with the skull head look. Saying that the meat n eggs diet doesn’t seem to have caught on. I do think he had a point re brain function as I think it’s shown benefits in helping conditions like epilepsy

[MischaHY]

Dave Mac keeps himself relevant with the skull head look. Saying that the meat n eggs diet doesn’t seem to have caught on. I do think he had a point re brain function as I think it’s shown benefits in helping conditions like epilepsy

I think Dave mostly just wants an evidence based and open discussion on athletic nutrition including what can work for genetic outliers such as himself who apparently have a microbiome which is divergent when compared to the genpop.

I've also struggled with significant dietary problems and anxiety/depressive episodes in tandem, and have had similar experiences that a significant shake up of the standard dietary advice is required to shift these symptoms - although it must be said the new wave of information I've been seeing communicated recently is much more in the line of 'find what works' with as broad a diet as possible whilst remaining minimally symptomatic.

He's well educated on the subject by now so I can only assume he knows where his 'healthy limit' is and skirts as close to it as he feels comfortable doing. The one thing that we can say is that he is certainly willing to put the work/time in to make sure that his approaches are as evidence based as reasonably possible which is something to be respected IMO.

[A.Greenhorne]

What’s a genetic outlier and how is DMac one?

[Will Hunt]

What’s a genetic outlier and how is DMac one?

Soon, Dan, anybody who hasn't attended a Lattice Gene Lab will be genetic outliers. Everyone else will have bought the Ondra Neck package, the two-for-one on Aidan's Fingers, and be taking the Dunning Growth Hormone. I think there's some mileage in a partial lobotomy that will enable those of us with non-mechanical attention spans to actually use our fingerboards.

[SA Chris]

or a full lobotomy to believe Dan's ramblings

[A.Greenhorne]

Just wanted to know what makes Dmac a genetic outlier ffs

[MischaHY]

What’s a genetic outlier and how is DMac one?

Well, if we take an example from statistical analysis, an outlier is a data point which is very different from other data points, making it hard to include in the data set due to being so different from the rest.

Dave has talked a lot about depressive symptoms and other negative effects brought on by certain common elements of nutrition, which he claims go away when he excludes them from his diet. Whilst I'm not an expert, I think it's fair to say this is quite unusual when compared against the general population.

I used genetic because pre-existing conditions like this tend to be something that's inherited - for example, my family has a history of IBS. However, I suppose it could be environmentally influenced so perhaps it's better to simply say outlier.

I'm not trying to say there's anything particularly compelling or important about what Dave says or experiences - but in fairness it was you who brought up the specifics of his dietary experimentation 

Apologies if I'm missing something here but I tend to take questions face-on.

[A.Greenhorne]

Cheers, no it was a genuine question.