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Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b (Read 29886 times)

tomtom

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@TT
Cognition is altered in very specific ways under 50% BW, but is seriously impacted before that too.
Spot on!!

The physical ill health is a longer term product of mental ill health when talking about body dysmorphia & eating disorders.

Yes - thats what I was inferring.. (badly)

MischaHY

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Something that frustrates me is people referring to the 'necessary power-weight ratio' without seeming to realise that this is incredibly non-specific and unscientific.

It consistently blows my mind that so many climbers fail to understand that it's perfectly possible to get heavier and improve your power to weight ratio. The same climbers then complain that they don't make strength gains from training whilst ignoring the fact that they spend most of the year eating too little in order to stay 1-2kg lighter.

These same climbers again then like to tell other climbers about how they would be so much stronger if they got leaner. I'm sad to say I've spent all 7 years of my time in the climbing community experiencing this kind of criticism. When confronted about this behaviour they get very defensive and say 'it's part of the sport'.

It's actually really fucking annoying to be honest.

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Something that frustrates me is people referring to the 'necessary power-weight ratio' without seeming to realise that this is incredibly non-specific and unscientific.

It consistently blows my mind that so many climbers fail to understand that it's perfectly possible to get heavier and improve your power to weight ratio. The same climbers then complain that they don't make strength gains from training whilst ignoring the fact that they spend most of the year eating too little in order to stay 1-2kg lighter.

These same climbers again then like to tell other climbers about how they would be so much stronger if they got leaner. I'm sad to say I've spent all 7 years of my time in the climbing community experiencing this kind of criticism. When confronted about this behaviour they get very defensive and say 'it's part of the sport'.

It's actually really fucking annoying to be honest.

There are some climbers who have excess body fat and would do absolutely no harm in losing it. There's a difference if you're already >15% BF then it's a waste of time outside of peak performance, but we're not powerlifters here, you don't need to be bulking to add 2kg to your max hangs.

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I think Alex' last statement nails it really.

I think it's a good development that we're starting to question the "do what it takes" mentality, especially for women. Top end female athletes, due to the power:weight ratio required in climbing are often going to be treading the thin line between light and unhealthy. We, as bystanders/onlookers can perhaps comment that someone looks like they are potentially on the unhealthy side, but short of being able to ask directly "how is your period" and getting bone density test done, we'll never know.

Edit: I know lots of folk on here know Mina well, so I'll tread carefully but I don't believe at any point during her worst time she ever looked particularly unhealthily thin? I guess my point is that the indicators of health are more complex and less outwardly obvious than just how ripped and veiny someone looks? I would agree with most (and my other half when she saw the video did too) that AE does look "unhealthy" and, Pete, given the number of "craggy high altitude super fit" types I used to mix with in Chamonix, I think that backstory doesn't even start to explain it. But the point is, if she "is" unhealthy someone should be looking out for her.

However, in our own circles we may know, especially younger, girls/women who are pushing in the sport and I think it's vital that we/they understand that serious damage can be done, and that maintaining hormonal health is vital. Coaches, fiends, partners. Too many old guys on this forum to fix these things though!!!

I guess there is an analogy to be made with modelling?  Some countries have banned excessively thin models being able to go on stage. Cannot imagine how that could be done in practice, but I guess a start would be the likes of over-caffeinated sugary drink company properly looking after their athletes...but then that would mean banning their own unhealthy sugary caffeine drink so that's not going to happen.....

Of course, men can also do damage to themselves, but it's much, much harder. (Or so current thinking says...)

I don’t know Mina.

But I know many young and teenage girls, with a variety of issues and eating disorders, through working with a local “residential ” school (read: sectioned) and in particular two girls in our youth squad, who both came to us with the issues and over the last five years we’ve got close with them or their families.
One is almost certainly my daughter’s girlfriend, I don’t ask (my eldest describes herself as “Pan” and has dated boys and girls over the last two years). They certainly spend a lot of time together and the girl in question has certainly “improved” dramatically since being put back a year into my daughter’s year (16 to my daughter’s 15).
Anyway, girl “A” is a driven gymnast, swimmer and climber. However she’s been hospitalised twice since age13 through eating issues. Each of those episodes was precipitated by vocal criticism by people (kids) unaware of the underlying realities.
So, possibly, I’m vicariously sensitive to the idea of publicly speculating on the health of anybody.
My late wife, had been a (Romanian) gymnast in her teens and things in that world were pretty harsh, particularly in Eastern Europe. She was pushed into eating disorder territory by rape at 17, compounding existing self image issues. By the time we met, she was 24, had quit gymnastics, was healthy and had learned how to focus the drive she’d had for gymnastics into what ever she wanted, without killing herself in the process. When we met, she couldn’t swim. Within a year, she had her Open Water diver cert. When we married two years after meeting, she was diving Trimix and was an accomplished underwater photographer
How much her early experience contributed to her cancer, was discussed by th e oncologist, but it’s impossible to draw any conclusions.

I guess I’m just uncomfortable with the “strangers on the internet” discussing this, as opposed to frank discussion amongst friends and family.
At least, where we are referring to specific people by name.
 

spidermonkey09

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I guess I’m just uncomfortable with the “strangers on the internet” discussing this, as opposed to frank discussion amongst friends and family.
At least, where we are referring to specific people by name.

Yes, I share this feeling too. Equally, maybe its better to openly discuss it than not to? Increases awareness of the issues in a way that simply won't happen if there is a culture of silence. I know I was shamefully ignorant of eating disorders and their impact on people until my early twenties.

Duma

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Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.
AE is an adult though, and has been open about her issues in her book, so perhaps is less vulnerable  than some others.
Shes also been at the very top of her sport for 16years!
Comparisons with Nina or Shauna are pointless - one is nowhere near the same level sport climbing, and the other is a power athlete.

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Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

MischaHY

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Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.
AE is an adult though, and has been open about her issues in her book, so perhaps is less vulnerable  than some others.
Shes also been at the very top of her sport for 16years!
Comparisons with Nina or Shauna are pointless - one is nowhere near the same level sport climbing, and the other is a power athlete.

Possibly I was undermining my position by making that comparison. I think one reason the waters are so murky here is because we're discussing such an elite group of people and it's therefore challenging to draw wider comparisons.

I do however believe it's very possible to have respectful discussions about difficult topics if people are considerate and willing to put aside rhetoric. Discussion is a crucial (if sometimes uncomfortable) component of an evidence based approach to sporting ethics and I certainly don't think these topics should be swept under the rug.

Whilst I do agree with your point that AE is an adult and thereby autonomous (EDIT: just realised this was someone else who posted this comment), I do also think it's important to remember that adults can be vulnerable too. From what I've seen, the majority of the comments on this thread have been made from a position of care/concern - I have to say I don't see why 'middle aged men' (I don't fall into this group) shouldn't be allowed to express their thoughts on the matter, as long as it remains considered as mentioned above.

gme

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Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.

Anti

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Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.

Weight is an issue in many male sports, especially in climbing and cycling. It's just less normal to talk about it. Males are famously bad at discussing mental health issues (see male suicide rates). Whenever people post up videos of Dave Graham or Daniel Woods etc, there's no huge debate about how skinny they look, yet if you stood them next to an average male they look like they'd snap in half.

The difficult part of this discussion is men dictating what a healthy woman should look like. By all non-superficial metrics she seems to be reasonably fit an healthy in the performance athlete sphere.

gme

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Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.


The difficult part of this discussion is men dictating what a healthy woman should look like. By all non-superficial metrics she seems to be reasonably fit an healthy in the performance athlete sphere.

I dont think anyone is dictating what she should look like, its entirely up to her but we are free to discuss our thoughts on what might be an unhealthy trend in climbing, man or women.

webbo

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Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.

Weight is an issue in many male sports, especially in climbing and cycling. It's just less normal to talk about it. Males are famously bad at discussing mental health issues (see male suicide rates). Whenever people post up videos of Dave Graham or Daniel Woods etc, there's no huge debate about how skinny they look, yet if you stood them next to an average male they look like they'd snap in half.

The difficult part of this discussion is men dictating what a healthy woman should look like. By all non-superficial metrics she seems to be reasonably fit an healthy in the performance athlete sphere.
If Dave Graham or Daniel Woods turned up for an appointment at their local mental health clinic, their weight wouldn’t be the first thing that would checked. However if Angela Eiter attended I’m pretty sure even the receptionist would be alerting someone.

Anti

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Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.


The difficult part of this discussion is men dictating what a healthy woman should look like. By all non-superficial metrics she seems to be reasonably fit an healthy in the performance athlete sphere.

I dont think anyone is dictating what she should look like, its entirely up to her but we are free to discuss our thoughts on what might be an unhealthy trend in climbing, man or women.

But my point is we have no reason to call her unhealthy outside of her not looking the way we think we should.

Maybe I'm missing your point but by all the general metrics of health in the realms we should care about (performance) she's ticking the boxes. Usually REDs or otherwise would present itself in the traditional ways, lack of performance, frequently ill or injured, sleep/recovery problems etc. Presumably if she's able to maintain at this level she's hardly slipping backwards in terms of recovery; so we're back to her not "looking" the way we want.

webbo

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I have known people consuming 500 calories a day and managing to exercise more than the average person in the street. Ok they might not have been redpointing 9B but it’s surprising what the body can do. The main issue is the continued malnutrition leads to catastrophic organ failure for some people.

remus

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Whenever people post up videos of Dave Graham or Daniel Woods etc, there's no huge debate about how skinny they look, yet if you stood them next to an average male they look like they'd snap in half.

I agree with your point, but they're going to look skinny compared to the average because the average person in the UK is overweight (as measured by average BMI (~27.5 in the UK and 26.5 in the US)).

abarro81

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But my point is we have no reason to call her unhealthy outside of her not looking the way we think we should.

I don't think people are saying that she is unhealthy, merely speculating that they think she may be unhealthy. In most cases it's likely to be based off an internal calculation of "would most women at that weight/build/BF% be healthy?"* and concluding "I don't think so". Going back to my previous point - she may be healthy at that weight/build/BF%, because e.g. she may have a body with an unusual resilience, but my very-much-non-expert assessment is that most women would not be. Hence it's not surprising for people to think she looks thin enough to be at risk of being unhealthy - I'd argue it's more a reflection of a statistical guess than a reflection of any kind of socially established aesthetic ideal/norm as you imply.

On a side-note, I know my performance has historically been best at what are probably unhealthy weights (more getting ill etc.).  While there are long-term performance issues for many people, it's not unfeasible that certain aspects of climbing could fit in a box where performance and health are not synonymous, so I'm not sure that the logic that performance proves health is very useful, especially when thinking about a scenario where a "suboptimal" route in this regard may have been taken earlier in someone's life. This is even more true if, as I said earlier, for a few individuals you can get really light without causing yourself problems, but to a point where everyone else would have imploded. So light may be right for a few people, but most people will cause themselves issues if they go down that road. Hence they may be healthy whilst looking very unhealthy... but it's unsurprising if people think that they look unhealthy, because our brain is just doing a quick guess based on some fudged conception of stats around this.

On a second side-note, when people have wondered about this stuff in the past, it's often later been that they were right about there being an issue (e.g. SDG)

*possible people think "would most women be able to be at that weight/composition without issues", rather than "would most women who are that weight/composition have issues" which are clearly slightly different
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 02:53:54 pm by abarro81 »

IanP

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I’ve followed this thread and wasn’t sure I wanted to get involved – I’ve no real expertise in this area but have had close personal contact with a couple of cases of eating disorders in young sports women.  There’s lots here to think about / comment on so below are just a few thoughts.

- Re Angy Eiter, I agree how she looks worrying to my eye’s but we should all try to be aware that this an individual person who’s situation we don’t know and try show respect and empathy on anything posted. 

- I think it’s becoming clear that eating disorders are a significant (and almost certainly underestimated) issue in power to weight based sports and while girls and young women are often emphasised in these discussions (and there may be links to other societal pressures here as well) it is by no means limited to these groups.  For example, Colin Jackson, Freddie Flintoff (thought his documentary was a hard but honest and positive watch), Kai Lightner.

- Eating disorders and associated low body fat can have significant health risks for women in a different way to men as noted by others here, and in particular the sort of body fat levels that might be acceptable for a male athlete could be seriously risky for women.   However I’m sure anyone who has experience of eating disorders would understand that the mental health and life impacts can be very significant outside of the pure physical effects.

- More open discussion about both eating disorders and disordered eating and its impact on individual in sport (and outside) is generally a good thing I feel.  While some on here have noted there is some awkwardness around a load of middle aged blokes discussing this in the context of young women, I think a lot of the discussion has been pretty decent quality and feel I would rather see it openly talked about in a (mostly) constructive and empathetic way.

- On the overall discussion about health body composition / weight vs performance I feel there are some really positive role model around top female climbers at the moment.  Certainly, looking at the recent European champs it seems that there is maybe a move away from the extremely low body fat / weight look.  Julia Chanourdie, who is arguably one of the very top outdoor sport climbers, looks pretty different to the very thin route climber archetype that still at times prevails.

- From my personal experience both people are doing much better and both have found that eating more normally and gaining some weight has led to improved sporting performance, (one at keen amateur level, one at near elite) alongside general improved well-being.   

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But, as Doylo implied, if I had a daughter or were a coach to young athletes, there's no way I'd want to show them vids of her doing well. Her body might cope with that, but most peoples' won't, and that's not the easiest thing to articulate to impressionable youngsters

Completely agree with this.

Although the discussion has been sparked by Angy Eiter, and clearly we can only speculate whilst hoping that if she is unhealthy that she has people looking out for her, the wider question is; is it necessary to cut your weight down to a potentially / probably unhealthy level in order to perform at this level in climbing?

I really would hope that the answer is no. Unfortunately, there are so few people operating at this level that it's hard to draw clear conclusions. And doubly unfortunate that of the three women to have climbed 9b, two at least look to the untrained eye as if they are treading very close to the line.

A further question then is, given the relative lack of available role models, is it responsible for over-caffeinated sugary drink company to promote potentially unhealthy practices without at least acknowledging it? Or making it clear to other aspiring climbers that there are risks involved in taking this approach? I mean, they probably couldn't care less, but still the question should be asked. 

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is it responsible for over-caffeinated sugary drink company to promote potentially unhealthy practices

This is rather critical to their business model.

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Although the discussion has been sparked by Angy Eiter, and clearly we can only speculate whilst hoping that if she is unhealthy that she has people looking out for her, the wider question is; is it necessary to cut your weight down to a potentially / probably unhealthy level in order to perform at this level in climbing?

I think with this in mind, it might be a good idea to split the thread. The above discussion has gone on longer than the discussion about the achievement itself. In a thread detailing the achievements of Angie, I could absolutely see how this could be a bad look for these forums. In this age of social media, this discussion could so easily be taken out of context and turn into "group of middle aged men ignore achievement of top female athlete to criticise how she looks", despite there being nothing but good intention here.

IanP

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But, as Doylo implied, if I had a daughter or were a coach to young athletes, there's no way I'd want to show them vids of her doing well. Her body might cope with that, but most peoples' won't, and that's not the easiest thing to articulate to impressionable youngsters

Completely agree with this.

Although the discussion has been sparked by Angy Eiter, and clearly we can only speculate whilst hoping that if she is unhealthy that she has people looking out for her, the wider question is; is it necessary to cut your weight down to a potentially / probably unhealthy level in order to perform at this level in climbing?

I really would hope that the answer is no. Unfortunately, there are so few people operating at this level that it's hard to draw clear conclusions. And doubly unfortunate that of the three women to have climbed 9b, two at least look to the untrained eye as if they are treading very close to the line.

A further question then is, given the relative lack of available role models, is it responsible for over-caffeinated sugary drink company to promote potentially unhealthy practices without at least acknowledging it? Or making it clear to other aspiring climbers that there are risks involved in taking this approach? I mean, they probably couldn't care less, but still the question should be asked.

I agree to some extent, but would also like to see the argument approached from the potential of some more positive roles models as well.  It doesn't seem clear that really low body fat is definitely the best approach for hard climbing (particularly for women) - Julia C, Anak Verhoven, Janja Ganbret etc appear to have a different approach to body composition and are obviously top performers at a world level.  1 out 2 9b climbers ( or 2 out of 3 if we include shitty sit starts in caves) isn't a big sample.

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Although the discussion has been sparked by Angy Eiter, and clearly we can only speculate whilst hoping that if she is unhealthy that she has people looking out for her, the wider question is; is it necessary to cut your weight down to a potentially / probably unhealthy level in order to perform at this level in climbing?

I think with this in mind, it might be a good idea to split the thread. The above discussion has gone on longer than the discussion about the achievement itself. In a thread detailing the achievements of Angie, I could absolutely see how this could be a bad look for these forums. In this age of social media, this discussion could so easily be taken out of context and turn into "group of middle aged men ignore achievement of top female athlete to criticise how she looks", despite there being nothing but good intention here.

That which I was trying not to say.

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Let’s see what shark comes up with for a new thread name......

Doylo

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Let’s see what shark comes up with for a new thread name......

What about ‘Sugary drinks company sponsors super skinny climbers in clever marketing ploy’ . Could also be the title of a Epic Tv vid - get in touch for the rights.

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Its interesting at the moment to see DaveM  and Grecian promoting weight loss as an athletic gains tool. Having come through the first wave of sport climbing in the mid 80's as always a larger bloke compared to everyone else I can see now I went into some very dangerous behaviour in my late teens and early 20's. One of the uk superstars has admitted in his book to living on sub 1200 calories a day at this time. It was rife, not eating was the thing. I was lucky and that behaviour didnt  stick as I got older.
I knew at least 4 male climbers who had pretty  bad eating disorders at that time, one of whom it more than probably led to his death at 50.  At the time the reaction to John Dunne was more than based upon his body size compared to the other elite. I remember talking to several top climbers in Sheff whos reaction was along the lines of no way hes done that hes way to big(I paraphrase here, it was more succinct) If you look back now at JD in his prime he looks fine.
What Im trying to say is that its always been there, I saw an old bouldering mate recently and the first thing he mentions was Id put on weight....

 

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