UKC logbooks saying someone climbed the Prow at Kyloe yesterday, any idea who? Profile hidden in logbooks
That's not the prow though is it... It's a direct to the pocket up the sidewall. If you watch the vid of bosi and compare the photos for people who haven't done it even from armchairs it's a mile apart. both climbers could climb on the two diff lines at the same time upto the pocket. Looks like a good new addition but the prow takes the line of the overhang upto level with the big pockets where it swings round and joins this.
That's not the prow though is it... It's a direct to the pocket up the sidewall. If you watch the vid of bosi and compare the photos for people who haven't done it even from armchairs it's a mile apart. both climbers could climb on the two diff lines at the same time upto the pocket. Looks like a good new addition but the prow takes the line of the overhang upto level with the big pockets where it swings round and joins this.
Obviously a bit subjective, but to me it looks close enough to the original that it's more a different sequence on the same line. Seems a shame to start adding rules in to a pretty mint line.
Le Faux Proue, or Le Prouette, or whatever.
That's not the prow though is it... It's a direct to the pocket up the sidewall. If you watch the vid of bosi and compare the photos for people who haven't done it even from armchairs it's a mile apart. both climbers could climb on the two diff lines at the same time upto the pocket. Looks like a good new addition but the prow takes the line of the overhang upto level with the big pockets where it swings round and joins this.
I abbed down the prow last summer to give it a clean, the tree felling has resulted in some off the moss falling back revealing a massive jug at the top making the big lean over move redundant now really which is a bit of a shame.
Just for interest and discussion I thought I should perhaps clarify that The Prow, as climbed by Andy Earl climbs up the steep prow until forced slightly right high up where it eventually finished as for Hostile Environment an E4 that traverses out across the wall from the corner. Dan and Will both use an extra hold on the right that Andy avoided. Franco has climbed direct to that good hold which is on Hostile Environment. I've posted the sequence Andy climbed on Instagram for anyone who is interested.
Little video of Franco's ascent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeN-7D4Se4I
Just for interest and discussion I thought I should perhaps clarify that The Prow, as climbed by Andy Earl climbs up the steep prow until forced slightly right high up where it eventually finished as for Hostile Environment an E4 that traverses out across the wall from the corner. Dan and Will both use an extra hold on the right that Andy avoided. Franco has climbed direct to that good hold which is on Hostile Environment. I've posted the sequence Andy climbed on Instagram for anyone who is interested.
Love to see these any chance of a link :please:
Comparing Dan's sequence from life on hold and Franco's sequence the line just doesn't seem that different :shrug:
Looks like Dan gets the pocket with his right and does a long move up left to a scatty pocket, whereas Franco gets the pocket with his left and does a move out right to a scatty pinky mono pocket. Other than that they seem to climb exactly the same line as far as I can tell? A couple of moves difference over a 10m line doesn't seem like enough to call it a new problem.
Life on hold footage for reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pd6vNv0etg?t=1307
Comparing Dan's sequence from life on hold and Franco's sequence the line just doesn't seem that different :shrug:
Looks like Dan gets the pocket with his right and does a long move up left to a scatty pocket, whereas Franco gets the pocket with his left and does a move out right to a scatty pinky mono pocket. Other than that they seem to climb exactly the same line as far as I can tell? A couple of moves difference over a 10m line doesn't seem like enough to call it a new problem.
Life on hold footage for reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pd6vNv0etg?t=1307
I'd be claiming a first ascent if I were him.
I'd be claiming a first ascent if I were him.
Imagine the stick he’d be getting if he’d have done that.
I'm gutted to learn that The Prow is an eliminate.I'd be claiming a first ascent if I were him.
Imagine the stick he’d be getting if he’d have done that.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/kyloe-in-the-woods_kyloe-in-838/varian_the_librarian-648343
I'm gutted to learn that The Prow is an eliminate.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/kyloe-in-the-woods_kyloe-in-838/varian_the_librarian-648343
I'm gutted to learn that The Prow is an eliminate.I'd be claiming a first ascent if I were him.
Imagine the stick he’d be getting if he’d have done that.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/kyloe-in-the-woods_kyloe-in-838/varian_the_librarian-648343
I'm gutted to learn that The Prow is an eliminate.I'd be claiming a first ascent if I were him.
Imagine the stick he’d be getting if he’d have done that.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/kyloe-in-the-woods_kyloe-in-838/varian_the_librarian-648343
Wonderful stuff :lol:
I'm gutted to learn that The Prow is an eliminate.I'd be claiming a first ascent if I were him.
Imagine the stick he’d be getting if he’d have done that.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/kyloe-in-the-woods_kyloe-in-838/varian_the_librarian-648343
:lol: Funny stuff :clap2: From a sport climber's perspective, sport routes do get eliminate monikers e.g. Anabolica 8a in Suirana has gained a variant in the local guide for those looping out left to the 'cheating' kneebar and then back onto the line, 'Anabolinga 7c+'.
A three move variant at the top is hardly a new line. It's a fucking cop-out. A pointless eliminate.
Was Andy's FA just big grades for bad beta then?
Was Andy's FA just big grades for bad beta then?
I'm gutted to learn that The Prow is an eliminate.I'd be claiming a first ascent if I were him.
Imagine the stick he’d be getting if he’d have done that.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/kyloe-in-the-woods_kyloe-in-838/varian_the_librarian-648343
Wonderful stuff :lol:
A three move variant at the top is hardly a new line. It's a fucking cop-out. A pointless eliminate.
There'll be one of them Dan Varian paragraphs along soon...
I'm gutted to learn that The Prow is an eliminate.I'd be claiming a first ascent if I were him.
Imagine the stick he’d be getting if he’d have done that.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/kyloe-in-the-woods_kyloe-in-838/varian_the_librarian-648343
Wonderful stuff :lol:
A three move variant at the top is hardly a new line. It's a fucking cop-out. A pointless eliminate.
It’s hilarious how upset people get about Franco.
It is indeed, made more so by how little he seems to care.
This is all very amusing :lol: Am I missing something here or did everyone else miss the Steve Crow post where he points out, (illustrated by an Insta photo sequence of Andy), that noone has repeated Andy's original sequence that avoids the 'good' hold out right?
.... Back around everyone.
This is all very amusing :lol: Am I missing something here or did everyone else miss the Steve Crow post where he points out, (illustrated by an Insta photo sequence of Andy), that noone has repeated Andy's original sequence that avoids the 'good' hold out right?
.... Back around everyone.
Steve Crowe will know if my interpretation of this is correct...Andy used that hold, but the left side, with his right hand, and then finished on the long flute with his left. This follows 'The Prow' more directly. I think, thus far that all of the repeats have used that same obvious hold, but the right side of it with their left hand.... Happy to be corrected.
This is all very amusing :lol: Am I missing something here or did everyone else miss the Steve Crow post where he points out, (illustrated by an Insta photo sequence of Andy), that noone has repeated Andy's original sequence that avoids the 'good' hold out right?
.... Back around everyone.
Steve Crowe will know if my interpretation of this is correct...Andy used that hold, but the left side, with his right hand, and then finished on the long flute with his left. This follows 'The Prow' more directly. I think, thus far that all of the repeats have used that same obvious hold, but the right side of it with their left hand.... Happy to be corrected.
I thought he was referring to the ear shaped hold further right which Will and Dan take after they've gained the big hold with their left, I.e. to help set up for the move to the top.
This is just like Renegade Master. It’s annoying that everyone now cops out right. But I guess it’s become the accepted way of doing it.
This is all very amusing :lol: Am I missing something here or did everyone else miss the Steve Crow post where he points out, (illustrated by an Insta photo sequence of Andy), that noone has repeated Andy's original sequence that avoids the 'good' hold out right?
.... Back around everyone.
I struggle to think of any bouldering example of an arete thats considered the same climb if you climb it on a different side?
What Franco did looks vastly different to what Dan did, what Dan has done is maybe a little different to Andy, but I mean come on, if Franco has climbed the same thing as Dan let alone Andy then maybe I should log Louie Armstrong as it shares the starting and finishing holds with Rocka, need to go do Ben's next, can claim Nacho start to keen roof for that too?
For a climb of that stature why wouldn't you investigate a better sequence?! On things like this we ought to be climbing lines not sequences.Do you mean like the arete, as opposed to the wall next to the arete? :-\
Standard Will shitting on other people's passions, nice one.
What Franco did is something, and pretty cool, highball too. But regardless of that, it's clearly vastly different from what Andy did, the quality shouldn't come into that, so I'm not sure why you need to shit on the cave, or the tor, or the ways people want to waste their time. The line is different to what he's climbing, that's the point. As Dan and others have said 2 could be climbing the same problem through their cruxes...
Standard Will shitting on other people's passions, nice one.
What Franco did is something, and pretty cool, highball too. But regardless of that, it's clearly vastly different from what Andy did, the quality shouldn't come into that, so I'm not sure why you need to shit on the cave, or the tor, or the ways people want to waste their time. The line is different to what he's climbing, that's the point. As Dan and others have said 2 could be climbing the same problem through their cruxes...
I mean the difference is literally getting a hold with your left or right, then a move left or right. This isn't freerider Vs salathe wall we're talking here.
It hugely changes the character of the climb though. Surely that's obvious?
I guess so. It's disappointing one of the 'big 3' turns out to be a weird eliminate line though. To my mind a line being 'the easiest way up' is a big part of what makes it quality in the first place. I feel like there's enough weird rules in bouldering and adding more makes it less fun. Obviously all quite subjective though, big path round the bag etc.
Standard Will shitting on other people's passions, nice one.
What Franco did is something, and pretty cool, highball too. But regardless of that, it's clearly vastly different from what Andy did, the quality shouldn't come into that, so I'm not sure why you need to shit on the cave, or the tor, or the ways people want to waste their time. The line is different to what he's climbing, that's the point. As Dan and others have said 2 could be climbing the same problem through their cruxes...
Funny that nobody on here has ever, to my knowledge, had a pop at all the people who have done Vicious Streak in recent years by traversing over into Crystal Method and then doing a pointless traverse back along the top of the block so that they can top out in the right place.
I have to disagree with you on this one Remus, it's pretty easy for things to be very different climbing one set of holds to the side (i.e. your left hand where the other sequence would have the right hand). Especially if that takes you onto another angle of rock. If you climbed fire in the rain at anston (albeit I think since hold break it doesn't exist anymore) like that you could probably turn it from 8B+ to 7B or something... It does unfortunately make the original problem contrived, but sometimes that's the way it goes, especially in bouldering...
I really don't think that looks a case of an eliminate being avoided. He starts on the same holds then literally climbs off in a different direction, onto a different feature. Bouldering always seeks the line of most resistance doesn't it. It doesn'tean its all about contrived rules. What franco climbed looks great and hard, but clearly isn't the prow!
I really don't think that looks a case of an eliminate being avoided. He starts on the same holds then literally climbs off in a different direction, onto a different feature. Bouldering always seeks the line of most resistance doesn't it. It doesn'tean its all about contrived rules. What franco climbed looks great and hard, but clearly isn't the prow!
If it's not just a case of 'climb the easiest line to the top' and there's some rules to follow (i.e. get the pocket with your right and move left up the prow to a mono, then you're allowed to swing right on to the face, but not before!) then that feels pretty eliminate to me.
I really don't think that looks a case of an eliminate being avoided. He starts on the same holds then literally climbs off in a different direction, onto a different feature. Bouldering always seeks the line of most resistance doesn't it. It doesn'tean its all about contrived rules. What franco climbed looks great and hard, but clearly isn't the prow!
If it's not just a case of 'climb the easiest line to the top' and there's some rules to follow (i.e. get the pocket with your right and move left up the prow to a mono, then you're allowed to swing right on to the face, but not before!) then that feels pretty eliminate to me.
But that makes the whole of rock climbing an eliminate! Which it is i suppose.
It's been a while since I've been to back bowden, but if you pulled on to the start of the dark side, I'm pretty sure you could traverse along the bottom of the crag to an easier route, climb it, then traverse back along to the top of the dark side. That definitely doesn't make the dark side an eliminate! In fact the same could be said about most crags and routes in the country.
I suppose the first ascent doesn't always end up being the most logical way of climbing a bit of rock. But equally, there are often multiple obvious ways of climbing a bit of rock. If you're claiming to have done a challenge laid down by someone else, then what you climb needs to at least resemble that.
Ultimately, climb what you want. Nobody can argue with that. But when you take to social media to publicize your achievements, I think it's fair to expect this kind of scrutiny.
Theoretically yeah I'd agree that rock climbing/bouldering is one big eliminate but in reality 90%+ of my experiences within it have felt like finding the line of least resistance using whatever tricks are available and would have been a much worse experience if I'd have had to be actively second guessing what the first ascentionist's intentions were whilst climbing/considering sequence options.
To me a prow feature in climbing terms means overhanging arete. So by that definition it would go without saying that a route/problem called ‘the prow’ sticks as much as possible to the overhanging side. I wouldn’t call that an eliminate though, personally, and if I wasn’t staying on the overhanging side I’d be questioning whether I’d done it. Andy/Dan/ Bosi etc obviously felt it possible to stick to the overhanging side more than Franco.
I was just following on from the final sentence of your previous post ;sorry, made sense in my head!
Escapable rather than eliminate surely? Plenty of those things around, guides even have a habit of pointing out when trad routes are escapable. Kaabah can be climbed via Mecca extension instead, but that makes Kaabah an escapable direct version rather than an eliminate (to my mind at least).
I agree it's a pity when things aren't clear, but I guess sometimes people don't realise something's escapable until someone looks for that method? And yeah, it's better when things aren't escapable, but the rock doesn't always do what we want...
I feel sorry for Andys routes getting this kind of treatment as it really isnt hard to climb this thing up the overhang. With the 8C+ strength from most of the youth coming through they can climb lots of highballs using loads of variations, coming in and out where they wish. We did this with careless, the whole line can be traversed into and out of easily, you can stem out the corner off superbloc into its top out and those are two of the peaks best lines. Its just classic worm tactics to claim the same climb but be climbing up a different face when repeating something like this. I mean basic bouldering 101 is that different sides of aretes are very different climbs, just because this one is rounded doesnt change things, the top section doesnt change much really as all the hard climbing ends at the good hold, its the section upto there which dodges all the steep that changes the problem. King of Shunts is a better name
Two sides of the same coin I think, in both cases you're adding rules about what's allowed and what's not.
Climber A: ‘I just did Left Wall High, yay!’
Climber B: ‘No you didn’t, you did Left Wall… Left Wall High takes that slightly higher line of holds half a metre above Left Wall after the cross-through move. It’s much pumpier.’
Climber A: ‘But that’s a bit contrived. What I climbed was the logical line’.
Since when was bouldering about the most logical and easiest lines?
I guess this comes down to the extent to which you venerate the difficulty + purity of a line. It's no surprise to see which voices are on each side of the debate. For me it's clear; the line is The Prow, as the name suggests, and the problem should therefore follow that line as much as possible. Deviating away from the line is exactly that.
I agree that the grades of the two sequences are completely different, and if you were grading this as an eliminate boulder problem then they would be two different grades. But if it was graded as a trad route then I’d say it’d have to be downgraded, with the new sequence being used.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiO3JwPGsrnRL6mM92WZW2CYDg83I40HjQz32GtdcryiUItl4uw-lmoGKeR-Ku0HpQGEAVtk-wbOBn2fh0BiyxqvkaTH9S-rM7tkUU2Tlw0nQtP9THdhN9JscVmimH_BZMj80396tf7_Jl9l2TB6z2C3gntUHB8z4rqNPZ-V3JH6Me3TSA0UYCmrE_vqQ=s16000)
The Kyloe Prow (E9 7a / Font 8a)
this is mostly a concern that Franco has cheated his way to a tick he’s not worthy of?
this is mostly a concern that Franco has cheated his way to a tick he’s not worthy of?
That has always been the first and last concern that people have about Franco. As we've seen on this thread, he is consistently held to a different standard to everyone else. It's a good job he enjoys the attention, and an even better job that his ego isn't made of glass.
He's obviously a narcissist
He's obviously a narcissist
I agree with the rest of your post but I think this is unfair. The North York Moors guide would look and read very differently if a narcissist had produced it.
this is mostly a concern that Franco has cheated his way to a tick he’s not worthy of?
That has always been the first and last concern that people have about Franco. As we've seen on this thread, he is consistently held to a different standard to everyone else. It's a good job he enjoys the attention, and an even better job that his ego isn't made of glass.
What examples are there of him being held to a different standard?
if I wasn’t staying on the overhanging side I’d be questioning whether I’d done it.And Andy stuck more to the overhanging side than Dan, Ned and Will. Does that mean they haven't done it?
this is mostly a concern that Franco has cheated his way to a tick he’s not worthy of?
That has always been the first and last concern that people have about Franco. As we've seen on this thread, he is consistently held to a different standard to everyone else. It's a good job he enjoys the attention, and an even better job that his ego isn't made of glass.
What examples are there of him being held to a different standard?
This thread I guess.
Shades of this classic thread (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,16705.msg293740.html#msg293740)
this is mostly a concern that Franco has cheated his way to a tick he’s not worthy of?
That has always been the first and last concern that people have about Franco. As we've seen on this thread, he is consistently held to a different standard to everyone else. It's a good job he enjoys the attention, and an even better job that his ego isn't made of glass.
What examples are there of him being held to a different standard?
This thread I guess.
Indeed, plenty of examples on this thread. As I've mentioned, people don't climb Vicious Streak as it was first done, likewise Tender Homecoming. Whaleback is the same. I could go on. Using a different sequence, or features that previously hadn't been used, and not mentioning it or a change in grade (if necessary) is entirely standard practice which nobody ever calls out.
As we've seen on this thread, he is consistently held to a different standard to everyone else.
If Franco’s variation is different again and also easier then it’s another problem. Call it whatever he wants. If it’s the same grade then the description can just be changed to ‘can be climbed on the left or right’ as per lots of other guidebook descriptions. But Tom has already confirmed it’s easier than the overhanging line.
this is mostly a concern that Franco has cheated his way to a tick he’s not worthy of?
That has always been the first and last concern that people have about Franco. As we've seen on this thread, he is consistently held to a different standard to everyone else. It's a good job he enjoys the attention, and an even better job that his ego isn't made of glass.
What examples are there of him being held to a different standard?
This thread I guess.
Indeed, plenty of examples on this thread. As I've mentioned, people don't climb Vicious Streak as it was first done, likewise Tender Homecoming. Whaleback is the same. I could go on. Using a different sequence, or features that previously hadn't been used, and not mentioning it or a change in grade (if necessary) is entirely standard practice which nobody ever calls out.
Do those people publish a grandly titled video shot with a drone, and extensive Instagram post complete with sponsor references?
this is mostly a concern that Franco has cheated his way to a tick he’s not worthy of?
That has always been the first and last concern that people have about Franco. As we've seen on this thread, he is consistently held to a different standard to everyone else. It's a good job he enjoys the attention, and an even better job that his ego isn't made of glass.
What examples are there of him being held to a different standard?
This thread I guess.
Indeed, plenty of examples on this thread. As I've mentioned, people don't climb Vicious Streak as it was first done, likewise Tender Homecoming. Whaleback is the same. I could go on. Using a different sequence, or features that previously hadn't been used, and not mentioning it or a change in grade (if necessary) is entirely standard practice which nobody ever calls out.
Using a different sequence, or features that previously hadn't been used, and not mentioning it or a change in grade (if necessary) is entirely standard practice which nobody ever calls out.
If he'd just called it Prowed Wall 7c or whatever there would have been a few 'nice one's (prob even from Carlisle) and that'd be that. But where's the fun in that! He's obviously a narcissist but at least he creates some entertainment (clearly does it on purpose and revels in it).:agree:
Using a different sequence, or features that previously hadn't been used, and not mentioning it or a change in grade (if necessary) is entirely standard practice which nobody ever calls out.
You're being very moronic with this statement. I assume it's deliberate. It ignores the entire debate about when a new sequence to the side of an existing problem becomes a new line. Which is what the whole fuckin' thread is about.
If someone climbs something (and whether it is nationally significant/rarely repeated is irrelevant) in a way that significantly deviates from the logical line/included features then they should either: a) say that it's a variant or eliminate or whatever
Unless you're at an eliminates venue, we should generally climb lines, not prescribed sequences. If there are any features which are out then this should be obvious and logical.
So let me get this straight, you agree with the consensus of the thread in almost every way possible... but you don't see enough people calling out punters at your local crags for dodgy shit so you thought you'd extrapolate that to dodgy shit being "entirely standard practice which nobody ever calls out".
Unless you're at an eliminates venue, we should generally climb lines, not prescribed sequences. If there are any features which are out then this should be obvious and logical.The idea that things are either eliminate or non elimninate is naive. Most climbs are somewhere on a spectrum of purity. The point along this spectrum at which we consider something eliminate is rather arbitrary in practice, and varies from climber to climber, and from crag to crag. The fact this is underacknowledged is part of why this sort of thread/argument exists. The idea that boulder problems which are to any extent eliminate only belong in special ghettos and you can wander at will on problems everywhere else is nonsense. Rock produces illogical and inconsistent challenges which we do our best to make consistent and logical by applying minimal and sensible rules where it makes things better. Bouldering would be very limited and a lot less interesting if we didn't.
Will - You are talking utter rubbish. Any climber who posts to social media has this level of scrutiny.
It's like saying you saw some punter at Stanage climb on wet rock with mud on his shoes and no-one told him off so nobody should tell anyone good off for posting a video about climbing wet rock in muddy shoes because that would be holding them to a different standard.
this is mostly a concern that Franco has cheated his way to a tick he’s not worthy of?
That has always been the first and last concern that people have about Franco. As we've seen on this thread, he is consistently held to a different standard to everyone else. It's a good job he enjoys the attention, and an even better job that his ego isn't made of glass.
Will - You are talking utter rubbish. Any climber who posts to social media has this level of scrutiny.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BXKjb9tg7IU/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=embed_video_watch_again
As understand this shows Will making a move right to use an off route hold for a shake, seems to claim the the Prow and post it on social media :-\
I'd say that Franco ought to have put up his nice video and said that he'd climbed The Prow a slightly different way and suggested a different grade (or indicated it's the same grade), else say he's climbed a variant on The Prow. Not knowing much about how this feature climbs I can't really say which of those is the better option.
Oh and Will next time you lie about me falling off a route of francos to back up its grade maybe check with me first yeah?
🔒&🪵
(http://mobileimages.lowes.com/productimages/082a4474-c214-420c-ac54-167668c6346f/00683053.jpg)
(https://merriam-webster.com/assets/mw/images/article/art-wap-landing-mp-lg/ampersand-word-history-5660-a6cece251f18a2ca78909da3e3f66390@1x.jpg)
(https://images.uncommongoods.com/images/items/49100/49180_3_640px.jpg)
QuoteI'd say that Franco ought to have put up his nice video and said that he'd climbed The Prow a slightly different way and suggested a different grade (or indicated it's the same grade), else say he's climbed a variant on The Prow. Not knowing much about how this feature climbs I can't really say which of those is the better option.
Yeah thats basically all that needed to happen and what any other logical person would've done.
Oh and Will next time you lie about me falling off a route of francos to back up its grade maybe check with me first yeah? i mean you've got my deets from guidebook writing. i couldnt be arsed getting involved that time but im here now so hey ho (i've never decked off nothing lasts but i have decked off a project just left of it, funnily enough i was stood at sandy chatting to franco about how the other side of the arete is a different line albeit sharing the RH holds and LH holds and we amicably agreed on that point when it was right next to his route and i'd found lots of gear... Its normally bomber, but basically i rushed an ascent on this due to rain and needing to meet katie and the kids back at the car and didnt check my gear, dry fired way up high (bout 12m) and didnt manage to recatch myself, fall was ok though even though i decked from the E5 and me and alex trotted back so make of that what you will as that fall is where the independent part of NL ends)
This arete stuff has happened to me a number of times in my life. Franco isnt being singled out. If bleau.info hadnt changed you could go and read a chat between me and olive lebreton about arete de boissy assis where i acidentally climbed the other side of the arete to his FA and we agreed to give it a different name and hence i somehow have an 8b+ FA in font purely by accident, i was a bit sarky and said he just did a link from devine and he was a bit sarky saying i just whacked my feet in hiphop, all a good laugh. I Should've called it Olive le twaton or something but then i respect that guy massively and all he's done for Font hence the chat with him to clarify what he wanted to do. Already mentioned arc royal.
and when someone is STILL whinging on insta 4 years after getting burned off on a proj i'd hardly say they're soo laid back carefree! i mean jesus 4 years!
Remus if you look at my initial post there's no malice, i'm just pointing out that wasn't the prow. It seems like most people can see that its not a prow or arete being climbed but the RH wall. Happy to have a rhymy childish name for my troubles and i thought it deserved a more curt retort. If Steve Crowe want to rescind all the other repeats after 11years lets go for it. nothing like having a hold 30cm to the right out of bounds after all the hard climbing ends to inspire repeaters. Andys original also lost two good feet the day me and micky and Ned were on it, that's the main reason it went up from 7C/+ which Andy originally mooted, so the original was never exactly possible anyway. Micky Page deserves all the credit for cleaning it and egging me and Ned onto it that day.
If he'd just called it Prowed Wall 7c or whatever there would have been a few 'nice one's (prob even from Carlisle) and that'd be that. But where's the fun in that! He's obviously a narcissist but at least he creates some entertainment (clearly does it on purpose and revels in it).:agree:
This whole thing looks confected to me. The backlash was so inevitable and so easily avoided you can only assume it's a deliberate stunt.
Unless you're at an eliminates venue, we should generally climb lines, not prescribed sequences. If there are any features which are out then this should be obvious and logical.The idea that things are either eliminate or non elimninate is naive. Most climbs are somewhere on a spectrum of purity. The point along this spectrum at which we consider something eliminate is rather arbitrary in practice, and varies from climber to climber, and from crag to crag. The fact this is underacknowledged is part of why this sort of thread/argument exists. The idea that boulder problems which are to any extent eliminate only belong in special ghettos and you can wander at will on problems everywhere else is nonsense. Rock produces illogical and inconsistent challenges which we do our best to make consistent and logical by applying minimal and sensible rules where it makes things better. Bouldering would be very limited and a lot less interesting if we didn't.
I don't think it's that useful to insist on a binary eliminate/non-eliminate categorisation. Clearly things fit neatly into the boxes at either end of the spectrum, but trying to split things in the middle ground is hugely contingent/contentious and creates perverse incentives. One person's 'intuitively know[n]' exemption is another person's presumably included feature - just look at this discussion of The Prow.
Hmm. What do you see as an eliminate? For me, something is eliminate if it avoids the use of an obvious hold or feature which would otherwise help you get up the problem. There are certain basic exemptions which we intuitively know, e.g. the floor is never in, and nor are adjacent boulders.
Where a problem needs rules specifying then it might be that you've created something worthwhile, maybe even really good, but it's likely that it's still eliminate to some degree.I wholly agree, but so long as 'eliminate' is a dirty word then this is problematic and reduces our enjoyment of the rock.
This, to my eye, always detracts from the quality in some way. That's not to say that eliminates can't be very good, but wouldn't it be better if that inconvenient thing that you're avoiding just never existed in the first place? Wouldn't that make things less forced and thus better?Of course it would be better if every boulder problem was a stone cold stand alone classic! In the same way it would be nice if we were all born with the genetics of Adam Ondra, supermodel looks, and a set of incredibly rich and generous parents. To state the obvious, it's a case of not making the perfect the enemy of the good. I'm not saying rules based problems are better than problems without rules, I'm saying both can be good (or shit) and life if richer if you can appreciate something for what it is. The whole sport is contrived, why balk at an extra level of contrivance.
Often you'll find that a developer has (in my view) mistaken difficulty for quality and climbed something in an eliminate way and written it up as such - often with no mention of the rule that they stuck to. Have an eliminate variation if you must, but don't describe that as the principle way to climb a thing. When developing, people should try and create the best problems they can rather the hardest they can reasonably get away with - they should see where the rock takes them and think about variations/eliminates as an afterthought.I think what's more often the case is developers, who are looking for quality, want things to be better than they really are and climb features in a blinkered way as a result. Repeaters, who are looking for a quick tick (quantity), often do whatever they think they can get away with and still claim an ascent. Both sides are deluding themselves. But sometimes a single simple rule can make a problem objectively superior to the non-rules version, and make it impossible for the repeater to plead ignorance when cheating. To my mind it's totally legitimate to assert this as the principle line in this case.
I agree completely with what Stubbs said above. When I think of the problems I admire the most I don't think any of them are eliminate in any way whatsoever.Yeah, I get it, and your favourite Queen/Beatles/Dylan album is the 'best of' :whistle:.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/8McNH1aXZnVyE/giphy.gif)QuoteI agree completely with what Stubbs said above. When I think of the problems I admire the most I don't think any of them are eliminate in any way whatsoever.Yeah, I get it, and your favourite Queen/Beatles/Dylan album is the 'best of' :whistle:.
Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?
I agree completely with what Stubbs said above. When I think of the problems I admire the most I don't think any of them are eliminate in any way whatsoever.Yeah, I get it, and your favourite Queen/Beatles/Dylan album is the 'best of' :whistle:.
Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?
Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?
I think in the context of this discussion about one of the UK's very best lines, at one of the most enigmatic crags in one of our noblest climbing areas, we're talking about purity and beauty in pretty strict terms. We're splitting hairs at the highest level of quality because we venerate rock climbing.
Make My Heart Fly
Heaven in your Hands
Did the first ascensionist not climb the arete only and now people lank out right to the crimp
Matterhorn Arete. Hmmm.
I sit firmly where you are leaning, he's climbed a new line/variant.
What Franco's done poses questions: what is The Prow? Is The Prow the feature or is it Earl's solution to it? Has Franco repeated The Prow? What about Dan/Ned/Will? Is The Prow everything that we'd imagined it to be? I'm leaning towards saying that Franco has climbed the prow, even if not The Prow - he's done a pretty cool looking right-hand variant. I think the fact that such a skirting was possible diminishes The Prow somewhat - I expect it's still 3-stars but some of the shine has come off (remember that I think that tight lines and rules are more illogical at height than they are on lowballs).
If that is genuinely a list of the boulder problems that you find most inspiring then you've well illustrated that you value stand-alone nature as the primary source of inspiration. To the exclusion of other factors maybe.Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?
OK, I'll take the bait. This should be fun!
Off the top of my head (these aren't necessarily my favourite climbs, I haven't even been on some of them, but they're all good and not eliminate):
Matterhorn Arete
Not To Be Taken Away
Fight on Black
Groovejet
Ron's Groove
Aye n Ard Crack
Ju Ju Club
Zoo York (I presume. Never touched it)
High Fidelity (Presumably, obvs)
Sole Fusion
Ben's Groove
Crystal Method
The Great Flake
Pinky
Whisky Galore
Successor State
Layby Arete
Heaven in your Hands
Make My Heart Fly
I suspect I could go on and on and on.
They're all fails in the black and white totally non eliminate sense
If that is genuinely a list of the boulder problems that you find most inspiring
Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?
Fair point. I didn't ask for a list of what most inspires you. Would the list be much different if I had?They're all fails in the black and white totally non eliminate sense
For that assertion to hold any water you'd have to explain what is being eliminated on those climbs. I'm happy to be proven wrong.If that is genuinely a list of the boulder problems that you find most inspiring
As I said, it's not, it's just a list of good non-eliminates which came to mind. I thought you just wanted to understand what I thought a non-eliminate was?Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?
But yes, when it comes to sorting the brilliant from the very good then purity of line is important.
I think it would be too personal to be relevant to the discussion, and I'd have to think about it a lot more. It would probably be fairly heavy on aretes and highballs (preferably highball aretes), but that's just a personal preference.
Fight on Black
The first thing we need to decide is whether this line is a boulder problem or a route. As far as I'm aware, every prior ascent has been headpointed
Excellent, let the show go on!
Not read the whole thing yet but skimmed down and randomly landed here:QuoteThe first thing we need to decide is whether this line is a boulder problem or a route. As far as I'm aware, every prior ascent has been headpointed
Err, no. All ascents so far have done it as a highball above pads. I.e., it's a boulder problem!
I find this discussion a bit surreal on the whole. Franco climbed a line adjacent to and easier than Andy’s. Andy’s takes the line of the prow and pulls right at the top, Franco’s takes the wall to the right.
Imagine Jerry and Richie Patterson on a forum in the 90s, would have been absolutely brutal.
Dropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.
Dropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.
Is this what Andy/Ned/Dan/Will did? How much is known about the varying levels of pre-inspection/pre-practice?
Boulder or route? It's neither. It's a highball. You don't slap up that top bit like you're two inches off the floor, you creep up in a way that if you blow it you're not going to somersault through the air. There's a wholly different level of risk involved.
The Prow was climbed above pads but written up in the routes guide, on a buttress with plenty of trad routes (High T, Feanor, The Entertainer, The Crucifix), as an E9 7a. It's since been written up as a highball Font 8A (E9 7a). It's not true to pretend that it's just a boulder problem.
Dropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.
Is this what Andy/Ned/Dan/Will did? How much is known about the varying levels of pre-inspection/pre-practice?
Boulder or route? It's neither. It's a highball. You don't slap up that top bit like you're two inches off the floor, you creep up in a way that if you blow it you're not going to somersault through the air. There's a wholly different level of risk involved.
The Prow was climbed above pads but written up in the routes guide, on a buttress with plenty of trad routes (High T, Feanor, The Entertainer, The Crucifix), as an E9 7a. It's since been written up as a highball Font 8A (E9 7a). It's not true to pretend that it's just a boulder problem.
My history is a little ropey, if you'll pardon the pun, bit is it not in the routes guide partly because too significant a line to leave out and because the f.a. was done after the publishing of the boulder guide? Or was it just in the role guide because it was the only boulder problem at the crag that topped out, with the exception of that wee nadser slab?
This thread has got me thinking about blood sport at shaftoe (Andy's original line, or at least what the photo of him on it shows) and the photo of Andy on crouching Tiger at Kyloe, where he's using that awesome feature slightly further left.
Steve? Help!
Hi Will
I want aware of the jocks story, but am well aware of the fact that we now drop off or downclimb from the break on the start of old routes
I just couldn't think of any full height boulder problems there with the exception of the Nadser, which is at the shortest bit of the crag.
OT, but what year was the first NMC Bouldering Guide produced Steve (the John Earl one)? I have it, but there are no dates anywhere.
Hi Will
I want aware of the jocks story, but am well aware of the fact that we now drop off or downclimb from the break on the start of old routes
I just couldn't think of any full height boulder problems there with the exception of the Nadser, which is at the shortest bit of the crag.
Hi Roddy
Before the introduction of bouldering guides everything in The County was just climbs. They went to the top of the crag. It was probably around the time when Cubby and Murray Hamilton climbed and claimed Jock’s, that boulder problems arrived and yet I guess Bob Smith still felt it ought to go to the top to be a legitimate climb! In those days the top outs weren’t as green and mossy as they became when the trees surrounding the crag reached maturity and began to overwhelm the micro climate.
When repeating these climbs in The Woods, and elsewhere, we would more often traverse off when reaching the good break, furthermore we had often traversed along the bottom of the crag to reach the start too! We only had bar towels and rubber car mats.
Over time more tree roots appeared through the pine needles at the bottom of the crag and the risk of ankle injuries increased. Fortunately around the same time bouldering mats became accepted and this led to jumping off from the break rather than reversing a crack or arête. Thin Hand Special has certainly had many more descents than ascents.
When Andy climbed The Prow it went into the next guidebook which happened to be the routes guide. In hindsight I probably should have put it in both?
After watching Franco's film and reading his opinion piece it strikes me that this predictable controversy is more about personalities, reputations and egos than holds, lines and eliminates. The first ascent of The Prow was done by one of the well established 'names' in climbing and whenever you have names some of their creations gather reputations and a lustre sometimes beyond the physical reality.
I feel sorry for Andys routes getting this kind of treatment
On the other hand, I'm not sure it's true that Franco lacks profile these days, and he is trying to have his cake and eat it by slapping FONT 8A HIGHBALL across the video title screen in clickbait font while acknowledging beneath the line that his sequence was easier, then complaining about getting pushback for it, which he must have known was inevitable.
If Tengkangpoche taught us anything, it's this: if you're promoting something on social media that could be construed as controversial, be straight up straight away.
Believe it or not, this was actually an attempt at doing something less controversial and more normal. I think the criticism around clickbait titles is fair enough. I'll take that. That's the kind of criticism I think is justified. I put myself out there on that front, bit cringey, so can take A BIT of stick for it. Having said that, if you notice when I publicise stuff (I'm sure you won't), you'll notice that in the past I've gone long periods of time without posting anything and not even really reporting new routes. This is what I'd like to do - or at least only put stuff up very occasionally. So I'm really not a natural social media person. Unfortunately if you want to spend more time out Trad climbing these days (and you're not minted), particularly on long term projects, you have to put yourself out in that way. If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter, although I'd prefer it if you didn't think that. Maybe referring to it as E9 is bad crack, but that is the grade in the guidebook! Am I meant to be a one man downgrading mission? Surely you'd think I had other motives if I did that?
Drone- I've always hated drones at crags and try and only use them when there's no one there, or I've checked with people that they're okay with it. They massively improve the quality of what you can produce though, so it's a bit of a no-brainer really. I actually enjoy the filming element of it quite a lot as well. There's going to be loads more of this in the near future, so apologies if you hate this. I don't think drones make you a narcissist, although it can make you annoying if there is anyone else around. Do you think Dave Mac a narcissist out of interest?
Maybe I should have said I thought the Prow was E7 6c or something, but that would have gone down even worse. I'd have had all these same criticisms, but with even more anger, as I'd be downgrading a route many on here think I haven't done. Realistically no highball is going to be E9 unless it's really hard like Empty the Bones of You or really bold. Repeating routes and referring to them as the guidebook grade is a long established thing - to use Dave Mac again, it's exactly what he did with Breathless or Blind Vision (I don't remember any criticism there). From now on perhaps I should just refer to routes as the grade I think they are? Happy to do this, but I'm sure I'll then get criticism for sandbagging or having an agenda or something else.
The bottom line is I struggle to see how I could have put a video of this ascent up and not cause controversy, short of not giving it a title or grade? Call it E9 and you're 'taking' (what a laughable concept) a grade it evidently isn't. Call it E7 and you're rubbishing Andy's route. Say you did a new route and you're a narcissist looking for your own FA. Say you repeated the prow and you're a punter cheating your way up the wall. My hunch is that some people on here won't be happy until I stop putting anything online, or climb things exactly like other people. I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.
I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.
Believe it or not, this was actually an attempt at doing something less controversial and more normal. I think the criticism around clickbait titles is fair enough. I'll take that. That's the kind of criticism I think is justified. I put myself out there on that front, bit cringey, so can take A BIT of stick for it. Having said that, if you notice when I publicise stuff (I'm sure you won't), you'll notice that in the past I've gone long periods of time without posting anything and not even really reporting new routes. This is what I'd like to do - or at least only put stuff up very occasionally. So I'm really not a natural social media person. Unfortunately if you want to spend more time out Trad climbing these days (and you're not minted), particularly on long term projects, you have to put yourself out in that way. If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter, although I'd prefer it if you didn't think that. Maybe referring to it as E9 is bad crack, but that is the grade in the guidebook! Am I meant to be a one man downgrading mission? Surely you'd think I had other motives if I did that?
Drone- I've always hated drones at crags and try and only use them when there's no one there, or I've checked with people that they're okay with it. They massively improve the quality of what you can produce though, so it's a bit of a no-brainer really. I actually enjoy the filming element of it quite a lot as well. There's going to be loads more of this in the near future, so apologies if you hate this. I don't think drones make you a narcissist, although it can make you annoying if there is anyone else around. Do you think Dave Mac a narcissist out of interest?
Maybe I should have said I thought the Prow was E7 6c or something, but that would have gone down even worse. I'd have had all these same criticisms, but with even more anger, as I'd be downgrading a route many on here think I haven't done. Realistically no highball is going to be E9 unless it's really hard like Empty the Bones of You or really bold. Repeating routes and referring to them as the guidebook grade is a long established thing - to use Dave Mac again, it's exactly what he did with Breathless or Blind Vision (I don't remember any criticism there). From now on perhaps I should just refer to routes as the grade I think they are? Happy to do this, but I'm sure I'll then get criticism for sandbagging or having an agenda or something else.
The bottom line is I struggle to see how I could have put a video of this ascent up and not cause controversy, short of not giving it a title or grade? Call it E9 and you're 'taking' (what a laughable concept) a grade it evidently isn't. Call it E7 and you're rubbishing Andy's route. Say you did a new route and you're a narcissist looking for your own FA. Say you repeated the prow and you're a punter cheating your way up the wall. My hunch is that some people on here won't be happy until I stop putting anything online, or climb things exactly like other people. I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.
You could have put out the video without a definitive grade saying “ I did this, what do people think as I’m not sure as to whether this counts as the Prow or a different route. Grade wise it could be this or that”
Most people would then hardly think you were trying to stir things up.
Believe it or not, this was actually an attempt at doing something less controversial and more normal. I think the criticism around clickbait titles is fair enough. I'll take that. That's the kind of criticism I think is justified. I put myself out there on that front, bit cringey, so can take A BIT of stick for it. Having said that, if you notice when I publicise stuff (I'm sure you won't), you'll notice that in the past I've gone long periods of time without posting anything and not even really reporting new routes. This is what I'd like to do - or at least only put stuff up very occasionally. So I'm really not a natural social media person. Unfortunately if you want to spend more time out Trad climbing these days (and you're not minted), particularly on long term projects, you have to put yourself out in that way. If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter, although I'd prefer it if you didn't think that. Maybe referring to it as E9 is bad crack, but that is the grade in the guidebook! Am I meant to be a one man downgrading mission? Surely you'd think I had other motives if I did that?
Drone- I've always hated drones at crags and try and only use them when there's no one there, or I've checked with people that they're okay with it. They massively improve the quality of what you can produce though, so it's a bit of a no-brainer really. I actually enjoy the filming element of it quite a lot as well. There's going to be loads more of this in the near future, so apologies if you hate this. I don't think drones make you a narcissist, although it can make you annoying if there is anyone else around. Do you think Dave Mac a narcissist out of interest?
Maybe I should have said I thought the Prow was E7 6c or something, but that would have gone down even worse. I'd have had all these same criticisms, but with even more anger, as I'd be downgrading a route many on here think I haven't done. Realistically no highball is going to be E9 unless it's really hard like Empty the Bones of You or really bold. Repeating routes and referring to them as the guidebook grade is a long established thing - to use Dave Mac again, it's exactly what he did with Breathless or Blind Vision (I don't remember any criticism there). From now on perhaps I should just refer to routes as the grade I think they are? Happy to do this, but I'm sure I'll then get criticism for sandbagging or having an agenda or something else.
The bottom line is I struggle to see how I could have put a video of this ascent up and not cause controversy, short of not giving it a title or grade? Call it E9 and you're 'taking' (what a laughable concept) a grade it evidently isn't. Call it E7 and you're rubbishing Andy's route. Say you did a new route and you're a narcissist looking for your own FA. Say you repeated the prow and you're a punter cheating your way up the wall. My hunch is that some people on here won't be happy until I stop putting anything online, or climb things exactly like other people. I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.
Hostile Varian:clap2:
From now on perhaps I should just refer to routes as the grade I think they are? Happy to do this, but I'm sure I'll then get criticism for sandbagging or having an agenda or something else.
Maybe referring to it as E9 is bad crack, but that is the grade in the guidebook!
The bottom line is I struggle to see how I could have put a video of this ascent up and not cause controversy, short of not giving it a title or grade?See webbo's post. Just say "I climbed The Prow. Except it might not be The Prow, in which case I'll give it a new name. It felt similar difficulty to x, y and z, a bit harder than d and e, but easier than f, so it's about XX. But then I like monos so others may think it's gnar and hard." Obviously be a bit less boring with the language but I'm sure you get the point.
If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter, although I'd prefer it if you didn't think that.Opening yourself up for criticism is surely part of the publicity game.
To me it seems like 3/4 of the people giving you shit are just jealous and will never be good enough to even touch those sort of grades so I wouldn’t really worry too much.is the sort of dumb sycophantic bollocks that I'd expect on insta but maybe we can keep it there please.
P.S. Pete, your post makes me wonder why we butted heads so much when I started kneebaring the cave! (Though I do appreciate there are differences that make it a flawed comparison)
I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.
Maybe I misremember and it appeared like I was giving you more shit than I really was (likely).I may also be misremembering.. Your line about being "best off ignoring or sticking two fingers up at the naysaying clique" reminded me of Doyle telling me that someone had described my ascent of Director's as "an insult to the first ascensionist", which I thought was brilliant. I need to find some more things to stir up some shit with!
Good effort for coming here and putting your side Franco.I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.
I’d say, given the background, if you wanted to avoid controversy it would have been better to report that you’d found a new sequence on The Prow, acknowledged that some would consider this as not an ascent of the original line and offered your opinion on the grade of the new sequence. I.e. make this the news not the footnote. You’d then be in a good position to make your case that what you climbed should be included within the definition of The Prow. Announcing you’d done The Prow and then going into the qualifying details afterwards, in the context of the controversy around The Young, was inevitably going to lead to the type of discussion that followed. You don’t come across as being naïve to how social media works, and you’ve been in your fair share of lively online debates*. I’d expect you to know how these things go. Hence why I thought it was a stunt.
Thanks for this. This is fair advice and something I'll try in the future. To me it was a footnote mind, as I just didn't think anyone in their right mind would consider this a new line. If I had been unsure whether what I'd done was a new route, I would have done as you say.
*Which reminds me, have you climbed Dangermouse yet, and renamed it “Owning Jon Fullwood”? You asked to be nominated an E9 to climb in the Peak to prove your case that they were all piss. You said this would be “relatively little effort”, as all Peak E9s were “nowt but polished crappy boulder problems in the sky, where the inadequate court fame and the lunatics stroll by”. The bet is ten years old now. That hat still needs eating. :whistle:
Nearly went there the other day, but someone said conditions would be rubbish. Still never been to the crag. The bet's still on though. What are we betting?
Imagine what topos would look like in guidebooks if there were such slight variations recorded. It'd be ridiculous.I take it you don't own that many bouldering guides? Variations this close exist all over the place in bouldering
I think Steve and Varian have really misrepresented how different these sequences areBearing in mind that there are videos, I'm sure we can make up our own minds
I thought I'd done the prow. The original line didn't actually stick to climbing the thing on the overhung side, so what difference did it make that I stepped right before, rather than after that mono pop? You can climb an overhung arete either on the overhung side, or on the slabby side. It's still a prow. Afterwards I did comment to my pals there that "people won't be happy i used a different sequence", but I firmly expected them to be a handful of people who don't get what makes a great line, as it seems blindingly obvious to me that the thing I climbed was the same as what everyone else had done. Imagine what topos would look like in guidebooks if there were such slight variations recorded. It'd be ridiculous.
I think Steve and Varian have really misrepresented how different these sequences are.
.
Not read the whole thing yet but skimmed down and randomly landed here:QuoteThe first thing we need to decide is whether this line is a boulder problem or a route. As far as I'm aware, every prior ascent has been headpointedErr, no. All ascents so far have done it as a highball above pads. I.e., it's a boulder problem!
Headpointing to me implies it's a route, but it's not as consensus is clearly to highball boulder it above pads.
Unfortunately if you want to spend more time out Trad climbing these days (and you're not minted), particularly on long term projects, you have to put yourself out in that way. If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latterLife sucks eh! Not sure the choice is that binary, although work does tend to get in the way of enjoying yourself to some extent for most people unfortunately. Hope it works out for you.
Half this discussion is people trying to force square pegs into round holes.
A pegging controversy would really be the icing on this cake.
Fuck me, the prodigal one has returned.I’ve even been climbing 4 times since Christmas Chris!
At least Franco didn't bring out a vhs where his mate shows him a problem which is then "revealed" to have been recently climbed by an adversary in some clearly orchestrated attempt to throw shade. That's old school trolling at its finest. Still love that fat fucker despite how cringeworthy it was so I'm sure Franco is just fine.
Fuck me, the prodigal one has returned.I’ve even been climbing 4 times since Christmas Chris!
Just want to pick up on the narcissism accusation here. Strikes me as a bit off. I mean, maybe it's true, but loads of us commenting on here put out videos, blogs, Instagram posts, and articles about stuff we've done. Pots and kettles all the way.
Doylo, for example, made an entire half hour film about himself trying to climb an 8B. Don't get me wrong, it's a brilliant film, but still, it's fundamentally no different to Franco making films about stuff he's climbed.
Shades of this classic thread, (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,16705.msg293740.html#msg293740) where I think you can see it's not just Franco or using extra holds. You can even use less holds than your mates and still be held up as a cop-out cheat.
Believe it or not, this was actually an attempt at doing something less controversial and more normal.
If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter.
I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.
Just want to pick up on the narcissism accusation here. Strikes me as a bit off. I mean, maybe it's true, but loads of us commenting on here put out videos, blogs, Instagram posts, and articles about stuff we've done. Pots and kettles all the way.It would be the same as Franco if he Doylo had done it using the new easier sequence and claimed the 8B.
Doylo, for example, made an entire half hour film about himself trying to climb an 8B. Don't get me wrong, it's a brilliant film, but still, it's fundamentally no different to Franco making films about stuff he's climbed.
Imagine Jerry and Richie Patterson on a forum in the 90s, would have been absolutely brutal.
So, the problem, in my opinion, with Franco's essay is that all he is doing is trying to justify the fact that he didn't climb this piece of rock the way everybody else has so far and that, in reality, somehow everyone else knew 'where the highball actually goes'.
'The Prow' Andy's line, follows the blunt arete, climbing as far as possible up the prow, and as far as possible taking the overhanging side, until the climber is forced onto the vertical face as the holds run out on the prow. And the reason I know this is because the prow was originally my project, (my 'line' as Franco would say) and I was the first person to contemplate and try climbing it way back in 2001 (before a shoulder injury put me out).
And my idea, (subsequently finished by Andy) was to climb the prow, the obvious overhanging feature, and in doing this my sequence (as dictated by the rock) ended up being the same as what Andy did with extremely bouldery moves on the steepest part of the blunt arete until a very hard move leads rightwards onto the face from where the large pocket can be gained and the top. This to me was 'the line', the line which walking under the crag grabs you and demands to be climbed and the obvious challenge was to attempt to climb as far as possible up the steepest part. And this is what I tried and Andy did. We didn't climb and claim the wall on the right as this wasn't The Prow. And I would be surprised if anyone else would walk under the crag and deny the obviousness of that line.
Now, if you instead of taking this line, climb on the right side of the arete, quitting the arete earlier and climb solely the wall on the right as Franco does (even if you end up in the same place for the last four moves) then yes you have climbed a route up that piece of rock but no you have not climbed Andy Earl's route The Prow.
So the bottom line for me is if you look at the two thumbnails of the videos these instanly give a pretty clear indication of the difference in where Andy, Dan, Ned and Will climbed the Prow and where Franco is climbing. (And yes Ned and Dan and Will do a different sequence for the last three moves at the top but this part is on a Bob Smith E4 and the meat of the climbing - the font 8a bit - is to get to that point.)
And those guys are all on the arete making it as steep and as hard as possible on at the same point as they are on an overhanging part Franco is on the vertical right side. Admittedly not miles away, but far enough to make it plain that what he is doing is not the same thing.
So my question is if you didn't climb what everyone else did, and in the manner that's been recognised to be the way to do it why not? And if you climbed it an easier way, using a different sequence, why not just recognise that and stop claiming to have climbed The Prow, E9 7a which follows the left, overhanging side of the arete as much as possible. .
Simply claim your sequence, give it a name and a grade and let people choose which is the 'correct' way. But it seems logical to me that to be the only person to climb the thing you've climbed (albeit on the same piece of rock) and yet claim to have done the route everyone else has does not add up. And yes, this may mean that The Prow is not the magnificent line that maybe we all thought it was but even that doesn't mean you did it.
And I have already said all of this to Franco in Instagram and I have not insulted him in saying it - though he seems to be offended by the Northern phrase 'I think you've dropped a bollock on this one' - and I wasn't going to post anything in public but since he's written such a long screed then I feel it's reasonable to reply.
In the end it seems to be that this is a simple case of wanting to have your cake (the fame, name and grade) without having earned it (in this case)which seems uneccessary for an obviously talented and bold climber. And if Franco wants to go back and repeat it in the same way as all the rest - even if it is deemed a bit of an eliminate now - I for one will cheer him on and accord him full respect as, having watched the Brit rock video, I kind of like the cut of his jib.
I'll just paste this here for those who don't read UKC. Would welcome a comment on this, as the difference with The Young beta is greater than The Prow. Perhaps it was just not that widely known?
"On a side note, I'm pretty sure most (all?) repeats of The Young have used a significantly different sequence to what Andy did on the FA at the top, climbing further right on different holds. This makes sense when you're on it, but not if you class my sequence on this as a new route. Whatever the conclusion of the lines on this Kyloe buttress, something similar needs to be done for Callaly. "
Oh right. Apologies then, I had been told by several people that Andy went direct.
Oh right. Apologies then..
The Row
(almost the prow)
Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.
Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.
I've not got it in for anyone, but I strongly dislike it when people claim things they haven't done, falsely claim things they have done and give over inflated grades with little backing. I call it as I see it. If you, or others don't like honesty, then frankly I don't give a shit about your opinion.
FFS I know you've got it in for Franco but what utter tripe.
Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.
Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.
Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.
Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.
So cenotaph corner is an eliminate because it avoids the hard climbing on nightmayer? You really do seem to have got that completely the wrong way round.
I don't know the history of you issue with franco, but it seems like your contributions are pretty much invalid, such is the extent of your bias against him.
the redefining of things to suit the applause..
Climbing the vert wall to the right of the steep overhang likely isn’t the same grade.
FWIW I suspect my sequence and the original one are the same/similar Trad grades. Both pretty safe and pretty hard, but made significantly easier with modern padding.
Couple of truths:
Andy has a picture of Franco on a dart board at home.
Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.
Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.
The easiest way is the route.
Well done Franco,wish I wound people up as well as you do. :punk: :punk:
Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.
The easiest way is the route.
Well done Franco,wish I wound people up as well as you do. :punk: :punk:
The route is the route. It's the first ascentionists vision. To climb a different line isn't the line.
Franco doesn't wind me up. To quote BA Baracus "I pity the fool"
:popcorn:
https://youtu.be/WcKO-bxjZpE
:popcorn::clap2: :dance1:
https://youtu.be/WcKO-bxjZpE
You know those easy, featured walls you get at crags where the guide has to resort to saying "the wall to the right has been climbed everywhere at MVS", who'd have thought that would happen to The Prow?
You know those easy, featured walls you get at crags where the guide has to resort to saying "the wall to the right has been climbed everywhere at MVS", who'd have thought that would happen to The Prow?
Too late to get your new guide back from the publishers and add that in? :'(
:popcorn:
https://youtu.be/WcKO-bxjZpE
We should point out that what you've done there Dan is not the line as envisioned by the first ascensionist, as the FA of Varian the Librarian topped out over to the left not direct.
Back around.
Probably isn't strong enough...
We should point out that what you've done there Dan is not the line as envisioned by the first ascensionist, as the FA of Varian the Librarian topped out over to the left not direct.
Back around.
I don't know actually, surely Dan's is the real first ascent since he used all the available holds?
:-\ :lol: