[Will Hunt]

Ah, I see what you mean.

[Steve Crowe]

Hi Will

I want aware of the jocks story, but am well aware of the fact that we now drop off or downclimb from the break on the start of old routes

I just couldn't think of any full height boulder problems there with the exception of the Nadser, which is at the shortest bit of the crag.

Hi Roddy

Before the introduction of bouldering guides everything in The County was just climbs. They went to the top of the crag. It was probably around the time when Cubby and Murray Hamilton climbed and claimed Jock’s, that boulder problems arrived and yet I guess Bob Smith still felt it ought to go to the top to be a legitimate climb! In those days the top outs weren’t as green and mossy as they became when the trees surrounding the crag reached maturity and began to overwhelm the micro climate.

When repeating these climbs in The Woods, and elsewhere, we would more often traverse off when reaching the good break, furthermore we had often traversed along the bottom of the crag to reach the start too! We only had bar towels and rubber car mats.

Over time more tree roots appeared through the pine needles at the bottom of the crag and the risk of ankle injuries increased. Fortunately around the same time bouldering mats became accepted and this led to jumping off from the break rather than reversing a crack or arête. Thin Hand Special has certainly had many more descents than ascents.

When Andy climbed The Prow it went into the next guidebook which happened to be the routes guide. In hindsight I probably should have put it in both?

[SA Chris]

OT, but what year was the first NMC Bouldering Guide produced Steve (the John Earl one)? I have it, but there are no dates anywhere.

[Steve Crowe]

OT, but what year was the first NMC Bouldering Guide produced Steve (the John Earl one)? I have it, but there are no dates anywhere.

The first Northumberland Bouldering guide came out in 2000

[SA Chris]

Thanks.

[rodma]

Hi Will

I want aware of the jocks story, but am well aware of the fact that we now drop off or downclimb from the break on the start of old routes

I just couldn't think of any full height boulder problems there with the exception of the Nadser, which is at the shortest bit of the crag.

Hi Roddy

Before the introduction of bouldering guides everything in The County was just climbs. They went to the top of the crag. It was probably around the time when Cubby and Murray Hamilton climbed and claimed Jock’s, that boulder problems arrived and yet I guess Bob Smith still felt it ought to go to the top to be a legitimate climb! In those days the top outs weren’t as green and mossy as they became when the trees surrounding the crag reached maturity and began to overwhelm the micro climate.

When repeating these climbs in The Woods, and elsewhere, we would more often traverse off when reaching the good break, furthermore we had often traversed along the bottom of the crag to reach the start too! We only had bar towels and rubber car mats.

Over time more tree roots appeared through the pine needles at the bottom of the crag and the risk of ankle injuries increased. Fortunately around the same time bouldering mats became accepted and this led to jumping off from the break rather than reversing a crack or arête. Thin Hand Special has certainly had many more descents than ascents.

When Andy climbed The Prow it went into the next guidebook which happened to be the routes guide. In hindsight I probably should have put it in both?

Thanks Steve

I thought it being in the route guide was appropriate at the time, given the height and topout being double that of anything else. I suppose now Ben has added half moon out whatever it's called and more people highballing it would make sense in a boulder guide.

Cheers

Roddy

[petejh]

After watching Franco's film and reading his opinion piece it strikes me that this predictable controversy is more about personalities, reputations and egos than holds, lines and eliminates. The first ascent of The Prow was done by one of the well established 'names' in climbing and whenever you have names some of their creations gather reputations and a lustre sometimes beyond the physical reality. Subsequent ascensionists of The Prow have also been well known wads (even if under the radar) who have a solid profile in climbing. Franco doesn't fit the mould of previous Prow ascensionists, around here he'd be called a turbo-punter - someone good enough to climb hard (especially in their niche) but who occupies a space below the established names.

I can't help but wonder whether if the prow feature had first been climbed by Mr. B-lister would it: a) have originally been held in such high regard; b) have subsequently kept its reputation among repeaters; c) have been such a circus when an alternative sequence out right was discovered?
 
Despite being someone who takes a drone climbing (), after watching the footage and reading his thoughts I can't help but like and respect Franco's approach and how he comes across. He just appears psyched, creative and looking at things through his own lens. Also the ascent appeared meaningful to him. In this case he'd be best off ignoring or sticking two fingers up at the naysaying clique as it appears his only crime was climbing an alternative sequence on a famous problem with a reputation built up around it. It looks as if the original concept of The Prow was a bit flawed and failed to acknowledge the fact of the vertical tech dirt sequence that it was possible to climb it via, and then climbers coming along later also failed to look at it differently perhaps out of respect for the problem's reputation, history and/or the first ascensionist. Just my armchair take. 

[andy moles]

After watching Franco's film and reading his opinion piece it strikes me that this predictable controversy is more about personalities, reputations and egos than holds, lines and eliminates. The first ascent of The Prow was done by one of the well established 'names' in climbing and whenever you have names some of their creations gather reputations and a lustre sometimes beyond the physical reality.

Evidenced by this, maybe?

I feel sorry for Andys routes getting this kind of treatment

On the other hand, I'm not sure it's true that Franco lacks profile these days, and he is trying to have his cake and eat it by slapping FONT 8A HIGHBALL across the video title screen in clickbait font while acknowledging beneath the line that his sequence was easier, then complaining about getting pushback for it, which he must have known was inevitable.

If Tengkangpoche taught us anything, it's this: if you're promoting something on social media that could be construed as controversial, be straight up straight away.

[Doylo]

On the other hand, I'm not sure it's true that Franco lacks profile these days, and he is trying to have his cake and eat it by slapping FONT 8A HIGHBALL across the video title screen in clickbait font while acknowledging beneath the line that his sequence was easier, then complaining about getting pushback for it, which he must have known was inevitable.

If Tengkangpoche taught us anything, it's this: if you're promoting something on social media that could be construed as controversial, be straight up straight away.

Sums it up. Invite comments with the clickbaity wind up stuff then complain when you get them. Then write an article about yourself.

If it quacks like a duck it’s probably not a platypus. Anyway I’m off to start a new life with Kurt Zouma’s cats .

“Quiet is peace. Tranquility. Quiet is turning down the volume knob on life. Silence is pushing the off button. Shutting it down. All of it.” - John Gaskins, 2009.

[SA Chris]

What Pete said. I thought this was all a good wind up, until I read the "woe is me" part of the article.

[Franco]

Believe it or not, this was actually an attempt at doing something less controversial and more normal. I think the criticism around clickbait titles is fair enough. I'll take that. That's the kind of criticism I think is justified. I put myself out there on that front, bit cringey, so can take A BIT of stick for it. Having said that, if you notice when I publicise stuff (I'm sure you won't), you'll notice that in the past I've gone long periods of time without posting anything and not even really reporting new routes. This is what I'd like to do - or at least only put stuff up very occasionally. So I'm really not a natural social media person. Unfortunately if you want to spend more time out Trad climbing these days (and you're not minted), particularly on long term projects, you have to put yourself out in that way. If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter, although I'd prefer it if you didn't think that. Maybe referring to it as E9 is bad crack, but that is the grade in the guidebook! Am I meant to be a one man downgrading mission? Surely you'd think I had other motives if I did that?

Drone- I've always hated drones at crags and try and only use them when there's no one there, or I've checked with people that they're okay with it. They massively improve the quality of what you can produce though, so it's a bit of a no-brainer really. I actually enjoy the filming element of it quite a lot as well. There's going to be loads more of this in the near future, so apologies if you hate this.  I don't think drones make you a narcissist, although it can make you annoying if there is anyone else around. Do you think Dave Mac a narcissist out of interest?

Maybe I should have said I thought the Prow was E7 6c or something, but that would have gone down even worse. I'd have had all these same criticisms, but with even more anger, as I'd be downgrading a route many on here think I haven't done. Realistically no highball is going to be E9 unless it's really hard like Empty the Bones of You or really bold.  Repeating routes and referring to them as the guidebook grade is a long established thing - to use Dave Mac again, it's exactly what he did with Breathless or Blind Vision (I don't remember any criticism there). From now on perhaps I should just refer to routes as the grade I think they are?  Happy to do this, but I'm sure I'll then get criticism for sandbagging or having an agenda or something else.

The bottom line is I struggle to see how I could have put a video of this ascent up and not cause controversy, short of not giving it a title or grade? Call it E9 and you're 'taking' (what a laughable concept) a grade it evidently isn't. Call it E7 and you're rubbishing Andy's route. Say you did a new route and you're a narcissist looking for your own FA. Say you repeated the prow and you're a punter cheating your way up the wall. My hunch is that some people on here won't be happy until I stop putting anything online, or climb things exactly like other people. I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.

 

[BID]

Believe it or not, this was actually an attempt at doing something less controversial and more normal. I think the criticism around clickbait titles is fair enough. I'll take that. That's the kind of criticism I think is justified. I put myself out there on that front, bit cringey, so can take A BIT of stick for it. Having said that, if you notice when I publicise stuff (I'm sure you won't), you'll notice that in the past I've gone long periods of time without posting anything and not even really reporting new routes. This is what I'd like to do - or at least only put stuff up very occasionally. So I'm really not a natural social media person. Unfortunately if you want to spend more time out Trad climbing these days (and you're not minted), particularly on long term projects, you have to put yourself out in that way. If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter, although I'd prefer it if you didn't think that. Maybe referring to it as E9 is bad crack, but that is the grade in the guidebook! Am I meant to be a one man downgrading mission? Surely you'd think I had other motives if I did that?

Drone- I've always hated drones at crags and try and only use them when there's no one there, or I've checked with people that they're okay with it. They massively improve the quality of what you can produce though, so it's a bit of a no-brainer really. I actually enjoy the filming element of it quite a lot as well. There's going to be loads more of this in the near future, so apologies if you hate this.  I don't think drones make you a narcissist, although it can make you annoying if there is anyone else around. Do you think Dave Mac a narcissist out of interest?

Maybe I should have said I thought the Prow was E7 6c or something, but that would have gone down even worse. I'd have had all these same criticisms, but with even more anger, as I'd be downgrading a route many on here think I haven't done. Realistically no highball is going to be E9 unless it's really hard like Empty the Bones of You or really bold.  Repeating routes and referring to them as the guidebook grade is a long established thing - to use Dave Mac again, it's exactly what he did with Breathless or Blind Vision (I don't remember any criticism there). From now on perhaps I should just refer to routes as the grade I think they are?  Happy to do this, but I'm sure I'll then get criticism for sandbagging or having an agenda or something else.

The bottom line is I struggle to see how I could have put a video of this ascent up and not cause controversy, short of not giving it a title or grade? Call it E9 and you're 'taking' (what a laughable concept) a grade it evidently isn't. Call it E7 and you're rubbishing Andy's route. Say you did a new route and you're a narcissist looking for your own FA. Say you repeated the prow and you're a punter cheating your way up the wall. My hunch is that some people on here won't be happy until I stop putting anything online, or climb things exactly like other people. I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.

 

Good work Franco. Keep it classy my friend.

[webbo]

You could have put out the video without a definitive grade saying “ I did this, what do people think as I’m not sure as to whether this counts as the Prow or a different route. Grade wise it could be this or that”
Most people would then hardly think you were trying to stir things up.

[northern yob]

I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.

 

Great debate, it’s good to see some characters and some bitching….

Franco stay strong with the attitude.

Not that my opinion counts for much, but I think you climbed a different line, I can see the grey, but to me it definitely isn’t the prow (it does look v good)

Maybe in future try saying what you actually genuinely think….. Do you really see it as the Prow? Do you think it’s 8A? Do you think it’s E9. If your honest with yourself it’s all good.

[Wellsy]

Damned if you do and damned if you don't eh? Well it's fair enough. Tbh from my punter level I thought that the ascent, whatever it was, looked ace. Drone footage included. I'd say give it a fair assessment of the grade, but I understand why you might not.

[Carliios]

Believe it or not, this was actually an attempt at doing something less controversial and more normal. I think the criticism around clickbait titles is fair enough. I'll take that. That's the kind of criticism I think is justified. I put myself out there on that front, bit cringey, so can take A BIT of stick for it. Having said that, if you notice when I publicise stuff (I'm sure you won't), you'll notice that in the past I've gone long periods of time without posting anything and not even really reporting new routes. This is what I'd like to do - or at least only put stuff up very occasionally. So I'm really not a natural social media person. Unfortunately if you want to spend more time out Trad climbing these days (and you're not minted), particularly on long term projects, you have to put yourself out in that way. If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter, although I'd prefer it if you didn't think that. Maybe referring to it as E9 is bad crack, but that is the grade in the guidebook! Am I meant to be a one man downgrading mission? Surely you'd think I had other motives if I did that?

Drone- I've always hated drones at crags and try and only use them when there's no one there, or I've checked with people that they're okay with it. They massively improve the quality of what you can produce though, so it's a bit of a no-brainer really. I actually enjoy the filming element of it quite a lot as well. There's going to be loads more of this in the near future, so apologies if you hate this.  I don't think drones make you a narcissist, although it can make you annoying if there is anyone else around. Do you think Dave Mac a narcissist out of interest?

Maybe I should have said I thought the Prow was E7 6c or something, but that would have gone down even worse. I'd have had all these same criticisms, but with even more anger, as I'd be downgrading a route many on here think I haven't done. Realistically no highball is going to be E9 unless it's really hard like Empty the Bones of You or really bold.  Repeating routes and referring to them as the guidebook grade is a long established thing - to use Dave Mac again, it's exactly what he did with Breathless or Blind Vision (I don't remember any criticism there). From now on perhaps I should just refer to routes as the grade I think they are?  Happy to do this, but I'm sure I'll then get criticism for sandbagging or having an agenda or something else.

The bottom line is I struggle to see how I could have put a video of this ascent up and not cause controversy, short of not giving it a title or grade? Call it E9 and you're 'taking' (what a laughable concept) a grade it evidently isn't. Call it E7 and you're rubbishing Andy's route. Say you did a new route and you're a narcissist looking for your own FA. Say you repeated the prow and you're a punter cheating your way up the wall. My hunch is that some people on here won't be happy until I stop putting anything online, or climb things exactly like other people. I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.

 

To me it seems like 3/4 of the people giving you shit are just jealous and will never be good enough to even touch those sort of grades so I wouldn’t really worry too much.

[lukeyboy]

You could have put out the video without a definitive grade saying “ I did this, what do people think as I’m not sure as to whether this counts as the Prow or a different route. Grade wise it could be this or that”
Most people would then hardly think you were trying to stir things up.

Yeah, this.

The consistent comment through this thread has been that it looks like a great piece of climbing and a top effort, just debate over whether it is what you claimed (i.e. The Prow).

I genuinely think you'd have received a positive reaction, and kept the sponsors happy, by just saying you'd climbed what you think is a new adjacent line to The Prow, which happens to be great climbing, and welcomed discussion on whether it's a Variant (sorry), new line, different sequence etc.

[Steve Crowe]

Believe it or not, this was actually an attempt at doing something less controversial and more normal. I think the criticism around clickbait titles is fair enough. I'll take that. That's the kind of criticism I think is justified. I put myself out there on that front, bit cringey, so can take A BIT of stick for it. Having said that, if you notice when I publicise stuff (I'm sure you won't), you'll notice that in the past I've gone long periods of time without posting anything and not even really reporting new routes. This is what I'd like to do - or at least only put stuff up very occasionally. So I'm really not a natural social media person. Unfortunately if you want to spend more time out Trad climbing these days (and you're not minted), particularly on long term projects, you have to put yourself out in that way. If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter, although I'd prefer it if you didn't think that. Maybe referring to it as E9 is bad crack, but that is the grade in the guidebook! Am I meant to be a one man downgrading mission? Surely you'd think I had other motives if I did that?

Drone- I've always hated drones at crags and try and only use them when there's no one there, or I've checked with people that they're okay with it. They massively improve the quality of what you can produce though, so it's a bit of a no-brainer really. I actually enjoy the filming element of it quite a lot as well. There's going to be loads more of this in the near future, so apologies if you hate this.  I don't think drones make you a narcissist, although it can make you annoying if there is anyone else around. Do you think Dave Mac a narcissist out of interest?

Maybe I should have said I thought the Prow was E7 6c or something, but that would have gone down even worse. I'd have had all these same criticisms, but with even more anger, as I'd be downgrading a route many on here think I haven't done. Realistically no highball is going to be E9 unless it's really hard like Empty the Bones of You or really bold.  Repeating routes and referring to them as the guidebook grade is a long established thing - to use Dave Mac again, it's exactly what he did with Breathless or Blind Vision (I don't remember any criticism there). From now on perhaps I should just refer to routes as the grade I think they are?  Happy to do this, but I'm sure I'll then get criticism for sandbagging or having an agenda or something else.

The bottom line is I struggle to see how I could have put a video of this ascent up and not cause controversy, short of not giving it a title or grade? Call it E9 and you're 'taking' (what a laughable concept) a grade it evidently isn't. Call it E7 and you're rubbishing Andy's route. Say you did a new route and you're a narcissist looking for your own FA. Say you repeated the prow and you're a punter cheating your way up the wall. My hunch is that some people on here won't be happy until I stop putting anything online, or climb things exactly like other people. I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.

 

I have to take some of the flak since I’m the one to grade The Prow E9 for the reasons I have already explained. Perhaps a Font grade 7C+ or 8A would be more appropriate now with modern mats and brushwood platforms? Furthermore I don’t think that you have embraced the challenge of The Prow, instead you have climbed The Wall joining the E4 Hostile Environment at the same point that The Prow joins it. In hindsight perhaps I should have used a different photograph of Andy lower down on The Prow itself rather than the scary top out.

I must say what you climbed looks really good to me and I’m psyched to have a closer look at your line. I’d just suggest you give it a complementary name like Proud Wall or Hostile Varian and give it your honest grade.

Thinking more about it, this is similar to the difference between Bob Smiths On the Rocks and Nick Dixon’s Off the Rocks two stunning Northumberland test pieces.

[lukeyboy]

Hostile Varian

[abarro81]

Nice one for sticking your head above the parapet and posting on here Franco. Though I have to say I didn't particularly like the UKC article and it seemed a bit confused at points.

From now on perhaps I should just refer to routes as the grade I think they are?  Happy to do this, but I'm sure I'll then get criticism for sandbagging or having an agenda or something else.

Maybe referring to it as E9 is bad crack, but that is the grade in the guidebook!

As Northern Yob said, say what you actually think. People bullshiting will always piss people off, and rightly so. Given how much shit I got for kneebaring the cave, imagine if I'd done that without downgrading everything! I would - quite rightly - have been crucified. If you give your honest opinion, reasons and comparisons* you're unlikely to get too much shit. And - the best bit - if you do, you'll know that it's not really on you, and the shit slingers are probably being idiots. If you know you're kinda bullshitting then you'll always be in a weak spot if criticism rolls in.

Even if you do get criticism it's likely to at worst be the kind of shit that Bouin gets for downgrading everything, which is a very vanilla and inoffensive kind of shit.

*Try to stick to comparing with things you've done. I've seen you compare things against a list of things you've dabbled on but not done in the past - that's another sure-fire way to get people's heckles up (unless it's very heavily caveated) because it typically looks like bullshitting

The bottom line is I struggle to see how I could have put a video of this ascent up and not cause controversy, short of not giving it a title or grade?

See webbo's post. Just say "I climbed The Prow. Except it might not be The Prow, in which case I'll give it a new name. It felt similar difficulty to x, y and z, a bit harder than d and e, but easier than f, so it's about XX. But then I like monos so others may think it's gnar and hard." Obviously be a bit less boring with the language but I'm sure you get the point.

If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter, although I'd prefer it if you didn't think that.

Opening yourself up for criticism is surely part of the publicity game.

P.S. Pete, your post makes me wonder why we butted heads so much when I started kneebaring the cave! (Though I do appreciate there are differences that make it a flawed comparison)


On the other hand, this

To me it seems like 3/4 of the people giving you shit are just jealous and will never be good enough to even touch those sort of grades so I wouldn’t really worry too much.

is the sort of dumb sycophantic bollocks that I'd expect on insta but maybe we can keep it there please.

[petejh]

P.S. Pete, your post makes me wonder why we butted heads so much when I started kneebaring the cave! (Though I do appreciate there are differences that make it a flawed comparison)

Ha! Gonna go off topic here! But you should firstly understand that I don't think I was ever giving you shit for kneebarring per se - I always thought what you did was impressive (and inevitable). Not that my opinion matters btw. I was more trying to put across the point that kneepads could be considered - back then more so than now - supplementary equipment that made an ascent easier. Which I think isn't a controversial thing to say at all. Your friend back then turned it into a cause to defend and, as is often the case online, opinions banged and clattered into each other without the softness of face to face interaction. Maybe I misremember and it appeared like I was giving you more shit than I really was (likely). My main point to you was, still is, a comparison coming from the world of steep mixed climbing where climbers reached a point in the evolution of equipment and standards where they could choose whether or not to use a supplementary piece of equipment (a heel spur) which made the routes substantially easier, and nearly all chose not to. The cave kneebarring scenes at that point in time just struck me as exactly the same game being played, except the consensus swung the opposite way to the way it went in steep mixed climbing. I've a great sport proj that uses three kneebar rests, it's ace. I'd also totally use pads in the cave on certain things now.

[northern yob]

After thinking about the whole line/feature/eliminate thing, I’ve come to the conclusion it’s a very subjective and personal thing.

After visiting west side story many times over the years With the likes of the show pony and Bishton, I’ve seen just about every possible sequence possible(always demonstrated first time whilst being talked through). The first one of these I repeated involves getting the side pull with your left as a Gaston! I don’t remember the specifics but it uses the same holds as the others with maybe one unique to it hold. Whilst I was psyched to get up the bit of rock, I felt that I hadn’t repeated west side story. It could easily be argued that I had…. It wasn’t until I did it using one of the other 5 or 6 sequences (all of which take the side pull with the right I think) that I felt I’d done it.

Franco do you genuinely feel like you repeated the Prow? Genuine question, I know what I think ,but I understand completely the other view! What do you honestly feel like it is you did? The Prow by an easier sequence? A variation on the Prow or a different thing? Fuck what anyone else says or thinks what do you think?

[Bonjoy]

Good effort for coming here and putting your side Franco.

I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.

I’d say, given the background, if you wanted to avoid controversy it would have been better to report that you’d found a new sequence on The Prow, acknowledged that some would consider this as not an ascent of the original line and offered your opinion on the grade of the new sequence. I.e. make this the news not the footnote. You’d then be in a good position to make your case that what you climbed should be included within the definition of The Prow. Announcing you’d done The Prow and then going into the qualifying details afterwards, in the context of the controversy around The Young, was inevitably going to lead to the type of discussion that followed. You don’t come across as being naïve to how social media works, and you’ve been in your fair share of lively online debates*. I’d expect you to know how these things go. Hence why I thought it was a stunt.


*Which reminds me, have you climbed Dangermouse yet, and renamed it “Owning Jon Fullwood”? You asked to be nominated an E9 to climb in the Peak to prove your case that they were all piss. You said this would be “relatively little effort”, as all Peak E9s were “nowt but polished crappy boulder problems in the sky, where the inadequate court fame and the lunatics stroll by”. The bet is ten years old now. That hat still needs eating.

[abarro81]

[off topic]

Maybe I misremember and it appeared like I was giving you more shit than I really was (likely).

I may also be misremembering..  Your line about being "best off ignoring or sticking two fingers up at the naysaying clique" reminded me of Doyle telling me that someone had described my ascent of Director's as "an insult to the first ascensionist", which I thought was brilliant. I need to find some more things to stir up some shit with!

[Franco]

I thought I'd done the prow. The original line didn't actually stick to climbing the thing on the overhung side, so what difference did it make that I stepped right before, rather than after that mono pop? You can climb an overhung arete either on the overhung side, or on the slabby side. It's still a prow.   Afterwards I did comment to my pals there that "people won't be happy i used a different sequence", but I firmly expected them to be a handful of people who don't get what makes a great line, as it seems blindingly obvious to me that the thing I climbed was the same as what everyone else had done. Imagine what topos would look like in guidebooks if there were such slight variations recorded. It'd be ridiculous.

I think Steve and Varian have really misrepresented how different these sequences are. It really comes down to one hold on one move  being different. Varian's list of boulders totally misses the point about lines of weakness (I still think this is important in establishing good bouldering) and the ability to move between each side of an arete (not that this is really an arete). Escaping from an easy line onto a hard line doesn't make the easy line rubbish. Escaping from a hard line onto an easy line in more than one place does make it rubbish - if we can't all agree on that, then we're never going to get anywhere (hence me not getting involved in this discussion, but here we go...)  Where your body is matters I suppose, but Bosi's body ends up on the right face straight after that pop move anyway. Even Andy's does. I notice that Steve has selectively not shared the picture he took of Andy from above (a similar angle to my video), as it looks incredibly close to what I did. So if you're asking for honesty, I think you'd have to be a fan of very tight boulder lines to think these are two separate routes and I can't think of any other ultra-highball venue where you have two separate routes sharing pockets. Are people really saying that I've climbed a new route (which would have to be the line of the buttress, unless the new sequence turns out to be harder)? That just seems bonkers... Ultra highballing is still so in its infancy in the UK, we don't need to have such defined lines yet.

If what you're interested in is difficulty, go try the wall to the left. 3 stars. Maybe one point of escape, but probably harder to go left than up (this is what's important when you're looking for outstanding new lines). Hard from bottom to top and on great rock.  I've done the moves apart from 2 low down, which may be too hard for me, but I'm sure would be possible at font 8b or something. One of the best in Northumberland and a better use of time than putting a load of eliminates up on Andy's 3 star classic.