[Nike Air]

Believe it or not, this was actually an attempt at doing something less controversial and more normal.

 If it's a choice between not getting the projects I want to do done (the next ones aren't going to work with a full time job), or a few dozen people on here thinking I'm a narcissist, then I'd choose the latter.
 
 I'd genuinely welcome guidance on what I should do in the future, as I basically just want to be able to go out with my pals and do my own thing, show it in a semi-cringe video and then not have huge levels of controversy surrounding it.

Well done coming on here Franco.

When I saw what you had initially reported I thought, bravo he's just gone out for a normal day's climbing and bonus he's repeated something inspiring. What has unfolded has soured my immediate feelings to the headlines. I'd like say you've got great climbing potential you just need to address a few things.

Do you need to sell your soul in order to climb these things?

Maybe examine your mentors or who influences you?

Can you see yourself as others do? Something we all should consider...

Do you really want guidance?

[Doylo]

Apologies to Franco and any of our fellow narcissists I’ve offended.
I’d still rank enthusiastic attention seeker over a pompous ass like Will Hunt  whose condescending sneers practically drip down the pixels on my screen.  Or anyone who thinks any of this shit beyond personal enjoyment/ satisfaction actually matters.  It’s all just killing time til supernova and the smouldering inferno.  I might be suffering existential nihilism or maybe just a grouch as haven’t climbed properly for 15 months and am stuck at home or I may have been triggered by memories of this boulderer I knew who used to beg people to write articles / make videos about him. He’d email ukc when he did something which I always found extremely nauseating . Not on to wrongly tar others with the same brush. 

[Wellsy]

Narcissism is often thrown around when people mean "proud about what they've done and hopeful for the admiration of one's peers" and tbh I like that we have a variety of characters in this silly, contrived (and utterly wonderful) game of dicking around on rocks

I don't think fear and loathing, francos YouTube videos or mellow or whatever is narcissistic. Or if it is I don't give a shit it entertains me and gets me psyched anyway. Unless we're going to apply some Kantian concept of purity to what we do, anything could be called arrogance/showing off and it gets a bit silly

Imo anyway

[Moo]

I think it's perfectly possible to make a video about yourself climbing without coming across as narcissistic. In fact I'd say Doylos film is a pretty good example of that.

[Will Hunt]

Don't tempt me, Doylo. You have no idea just how pompous and condescending I can be. I've barely started.

[webbo]

Just want to pick up on the narcissism accusation here. Strikes me as a bit off. I mean, maybe it's true, but loads of us commenting on here put out videos, blogs, Instagram posts, and articles about stuff we've done. Pots and kettles all the way.

Doylo, for example, made an entire half hour film about himself trying to climb an 8B. Don't get me wrong, it's a brilliant film, but still, it's fundamentally no different to Franco making films about stuff he's climbed.

It would be the same as Franco if he  Doylo had done it using the new easier sequence and claimed the 8B.
However he didn’t so it’s not the same at all.

[shark]

Imagine Jerry and Richie Patterson on a forum in the 90s, would have been absolutely brutal.

Patter has definitely mellowed

So, the problem, in my opinion, with Franco's essay is that all he is doing is trying to justify the fact that he didn't climb this piece of rock the way everybody else has so far and that, in reality, somehow everyone else knew 'where the highball actually goes'.

'The Prow' Andy's line, follows the blunt arete, climbing as far as possible up the prow, and as far as possible taking the overhanging side, until the climber is forced onto the vertical face as the holds run out on the prow. And the reason I know this is because the prow was originally my project, (my 'line' as Franco would say) and I was the first person to contemplate and try climbing it way back in 2001 (before a shoulder injury put me out).

And my idea, (subsequently finished by Andy) was to climb the prow, the obvious overhanging feature, and in doing this my sequence (as dictated by the rock) ended up being the same as what Andy did with extremely bouldery moves on the steepest part of the blunt arete until a very hard move leads rightwards onto the face from where the large pocket can be gained and the top. This to me was 'the line', the line which walking under the crag grabs you and demands to be climbed and the obvious challenge was to attempt to climb as far as possible up the steepest part. And this is what I tried and Andy did. We didn't climb and claim the wall on the right as this wasn't The Prow. And I would be surprised if anyone else would walk under the crag and deny the obviousness of that line.

Now, if you instead of taking this line, climb on the right side of the arete, quitting the arete earlier and climb solely the wall on the right as Franco does (even if you end up in the same place for the last four moves) then yes you have climbed a route up that piece of rock but no you have not climbed Andy Earl's route The Prow.

So the bottom line for me is if you look at the two thumbnails of the videos these instanly give a pretty clear indication of the difference in where Andy, Dan, Ned and Will climbed the Prow and where Franco is climbing. (And yes Ned and Dan and Will do a different sequence for the last three moves at the top but this part is on a Bob Smith E4 and the meat of the climbing - the font 8a bit - is to get to that point.)
And those guys are all on the arete making it as steep and as hard as possible on at the same point as they are on an overhanging part Franco is on the vertical right side. Admittedly not miles away, but far enough to make it plain that what he is doing is not the same thing.

So my question is if you didn't climb what everyone else did, and in the manner that's been recognised to be the way to do it why not? And if you climbed it an easier way, using a different sequence, why not just recognise that and stop claiming to have climbed The Prow, E9 7a which follows the left, overhanging side of the arete as much as possible. .

Simply claim your sequence, give it a name and a grade and let people choose which is the 'correct' way. But it seems logical to me that to be the only person to climb the thing you've climbed (albeit on the same piece of rock) and yet claim to have done the route everyone else has does not add up. And yes, this may mean that The Prow is not the magnificent line that maybe we all thought it was but even that doesn't mean you did it.

And I have already said all of this to Franco in Instagram and I have not insulted him in saying it - though he seems to be offended by the Northern phrase 'I think you've dropped a bollock on this one' - and I wasn't going to post anything in public but since he's written such a long screed then I feel it's reasonable to reply.

In the end it seems to be that this is a simple case of wanting to have your cake (the fame, name and grade) without having earned it (in this case)which seems uneccessary for an obviously talented and bold climber. And if Franco wants to go back and repeat it in the same way as all the rest - even if it is deemed a bit of an eliminate now - I for one will cheer him on and accord him full respect as, having watched the Brit rock video, I kind of like the cut of his jib.

I couldn’t find Patter’s comments on Franco’s Instagram posts so I assume he deleted them

[Franco]

I'll just paste this here for those who don't read UKC. Would welcome a comment on this, as the difference with The Young beta is greater than The Prow. Perhaps it was just not that widely known?

"On a side note, I'm pretty sure most (all?) repeats of The Young have used a significantly different sequence to what Andy did on the FA at the top, climbing further right on different holds. This makes sense when you're on it, but not if you class my sequence on this as a new route. Whatever the conclusion of the lines on this Kyloe buttress, something similar needs to be done for Callaly. "

[gme]

I'll just paste this here for those who don't read UKC. Would welcome a comment on this, as the difference with The Young beta is greater than The Prow. Perhaps it was just not that widely known?

"On a side note, I'm pretty sure most (all?) repeats of The Young have used a significantly different sequence to what Andy did on the FA at the top, climbing further right on different holds. This makes sense when you're on it, but not if you class my sequence on this as a new route. Whatever the conclusion of the lines on this Kyloe buttress, something similar needs to be done for Callaly. "

Re the young that’s just not true. I will check with andy but he did move back right.
The description in the guide describes how he did it. “Move back right to stand on the good hand hold” it then climbs straight up from there. This is how all have done it.
When Micky tried it they were trying to go straight up after the move out left to the pockets but it’s them that were wrong. They should have read the guide.

[Franco]

Oh right. Apologies then, I had been told by several people that Andy went direct.

[teestub]

Oh right. Apologies then, I had been told by several people that Andy went direct.

So we know you did something a bit outre on this one and The Young, did I miss the story of your ascent of Darkside, or is that one yet to come?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Absolutely well done to Franco for coming on here and opening up about all of this.

Oh right. Apologies then..

How very narcissistic of you 

I admit, I did have to escape out R from the thread, and traverse back in to read your posts later. 

I'm firmly in the "No, this is different" camp, although that depends - as others have posted - on the context and interpretation. Some fantastic historical input from Steve Crowe too.

Michel Foucault's work "Les Mots et les Choses"* - variously "The order of Things" or "Words and Things" - explores the way we see and experience the world through changes in conceptions. In the same way, we're debating what's reasonable to call equivalent here.

I think that considering your line to be equivalent to Andy's is unreasonable - but nowhere near as unreasonable as the flack you get for enthusiastically celebrating your exploits 

Maybe your line should be called "Prowess" - climb the wall R of of The Prow as closely to The Prow as your prowess at climbing overhanging prows allows.

Edit.
*Foucault maintained that different historical periods had different ways of looking at nature that determined what scientists saw and thought important.

https://www.lindahall.org/michel-foucault/

[petejh]

The Row

(almost the prow)

[edshakey]

The Ptow

(The Prow, but go right slightly in the middle)

[Bradders]

The Row

(almost the prow)

Superb

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I'm also with Franco regarding Will, Dan, Ned's ascents, regarding the pocket and move out R.

This makes Andy's FA something of an eliminate, which is unsatisfactory, but that's how it goes.
I think there's more difficulty in working out what to do with these three ascents than Franco's.

[Andy F]

Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.

[Johnny Brown]

Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.

FFS I know you've got it in for Franco but what utter tripe.

[Andy F]

Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.

I've not got it in for anyone, but I strongly dislike it when people claim things they haven't done, falsely claim things they have done and give over inflated grades with little backing. I call it as I see it. If you, or others don't like honesty, then frankly I don't give a shit about your opinion.

FFS I know you've got it in for Franco but what utter tripe.

[Johnny Brown]

That is all irrelevant to your statement. The literal definition of an eliminate is avoiding holds to make it harder. It has never been the reverse. That I have to spell that out is pretty bizarre.

[Ged]

Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.

So cenotaph corner is an eliminate because it avoids the hard climbing on nightmayer? You really do seem to have got that completely the wrong way round.

I don't know the history of you issue with franco, but it seems like your contributions are pretty much invalid, such is the extent of your bias against him.

[Wellsy]

Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.

If you have three handholds ahead of you, and you use the sequence left left right, because that's easier than right left right, you have avoided difficulty, but that does not equate to an eliminate.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.

I get what you're trying to say Andy, but even in the vid of Dan, there's the moment he eye's the pocket out right, with Will making the move R first.

What you're addressing head on, is the difference between what's reported and claimed as The Prow, and what Andy did - and that's important. It's absolutely no slight on Andy, to say that unfortunately the main challenge of The Prow proper is somewhat contrived. It's a testament to him that he did it that way.

I don't like the way that things get "socially revised" after the fact, as though 20+ pads, an army of spotters, but "ground up" .. plus a bit of Czech style combined tactics instead of a ladder, means that other differences can get ignored.

Maybe the best bit to come out of this for me, is having watched the rest of the video about Andy.

Well done to his family and friends for being so open about their new challenges 

[Andy F]

Climbing the obvious big prow as far as possible is hardly an eliminate. Avoiding the difficulties is an eliminate.

So cenotaph corner is an eliminate because it avoids the hard climbing on nightmayer? You really do seem to have got that completely the wrong way round.

I don't know the history of you issue with franco, but it seems like your contributions are pretty much invalid, such is the extent of your bias against him.

Cenotaph and Nightmayer are different lines, so not the best example you could have used. I have no issue with Franco, I just happen to dislike false claims.

[Potash]

Just left of cenotaph corner is Left Wall.

I'm interested to know which variation of that is the eliminate. Direct and hard or escaping out left to easy ground.