[tim palmer]

Matterhorn Arete

Does one not climb this on the left side of the arete?

Heaven in your Hands

Did the first ascensionist not climb the arete only and now people lank out right to the crimp

[Alex-the-Alex]

I think in the context of this discussion about one of the UK's very best lines, at one of the most enigmatic crags in one of our noblest climbing areas, we're talking about purity and beauty in pretty strict terms. We're splitting hairs at the highest level of quality because we venerate rock climbing.

Make My Heart Fly

Now we're talkin 

[Will Hunt]

Matterhorn Arete. Hmmm. I don't know about the right-hand side. I don't think I've ever climbed it. Climbing it on its left side, wouldn't it be harder to switch sides? There's certainly no impulse to do so, and there's nothing on that problem you'd want to use which is out of bounds.

Heaven in your Hands

Did the first ascensionist not climb the arete only and now people lank out right to the crimp

Unless you're saying that the crimp should be out-of-bounds then I'm not sure what relevance this has? I've never heard of anyone not being able to reach that crimp, moreover I think Sutty just didn't see that it was there or think to use it.
If we were to say that HiyH mustn't use that crimp then it would, of course, be an eliminate.


Alex, it's just so so so good, isn't it? Whichever deity placed those pockets with such thought and care really knew what they were doing.

[carlisle slapper]

Love the dream non eliminates being a yorkshire grit Caley heavy based trip. They're all fails in the black and white totally non eliminate sense

As a thought experiment try this. an indoor plywood boulder has no climbable way up it when not set and cant be walked round the back of. If you set one stand start up it from an obvious jug that all adults can reach but they cant reach the next move you'll be fairly watertight i think for totally non eliminate easiest way up. Very easily done indoors with Non Tnutted ply. All other forms of bouldering have arbitrary rules attached no matter how small and need descriptions to qualify what those rules are. Its up to us as the community to conform and make sense of this for others if we want climbing to be non Grinah based. So an outdoor version of the previous example please, to pass what i think is your quiz from BonJoy, might need to expand from grit as whilst its underfeatured, "it's all one big hold!". and BTW spectre has 2 topouts so you're always eliminating one, probably more lines on the boulder too. Whether something is eliminate is also affected by ability so the better you get the more options you have as to whether to climb up a natural feature like careless's arete or traverse off and finish up NTBTA.

[tim palmer]

Matterhorn Arete. Hmmm.

You could amble off right after the first couple of moves could you not? 

Heaven in your hands is hugely reach dependent, I am almost certain katz used the original method, I am a good bit taller than Mark and I was full span on to the crimp.  I think it is reasonably analogous to the prow, the first ascensionist used one method,  most subsequent ones have used a different ? Easier method, OK HIYH isn't quite as easily escapable but still a very different method. 

[Bonjoy]

What Franco's done poses questions: what is The Prow? Is The Prow the feature or is it Earl's solution to it? Has Franco repeated The Prow? What about Dan/Ned/Will? Is The Prow everything that we'd imagined it to be? I'm leaning towards saying that Franco has climbed the prow, even if not The Prow - he's done a pretty cool looking right-hand variant. I think the fact that such a skirting was possible diminishes The Prow somewhat - I expect it's still 3-stars but some of the shine has come off (remember that I think that tight lines and rules are more illogical at height than they are on lowballs).

I sit firmly where you are leaning, he's climbed a new line/variant.
It does shed light on the fact The Prow is escapable and less stand alone than was widely understood. Fewer people would have felt the cognitive dissonance of their illusions being shattered if the escapability of the line had been defined explicitly in the original description, but perhaps Franco was the first to spot the easier variant.

Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider  as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?

OK, I'll take the bait. This should be fun!
Off the top of my head (these aren't necessarily my favourite climbs, I haven't even been on some of them, but they're all good and not eliminate):

Matterhorn Arete
Not To Be Taken Away
Fight on Black
Groovejet
Ron's Groove
Aye n Ard Crack
Ju Ju Club
Zoo York (I presume. Never touched it)
High Fidelity (Presumably, obvs)
Sole Fusion
Ben's Groove
Crystal Method
The Great Flake
Pinky
Whisky Galore
Successor State
Layby Arete
Heaven in your Hands
Make My Heart Fly

I suspect I could go on and on and on.

If that is genuinely a list of the boulder problems that you find most inspiring then you've well illustrated that you value stand-alone nature as the primary source of inspiration. To the exclusion of other factors maybe.

[Will Hunt]

They're all fails in the black and white totally non eliminate sense

For that assertion to hold any water you'd have to explain what is being eliminated on those climbs. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

If that is genuinely a list of the boulder problems that you find most inspiring

As I said, it's not, it's just a list of good non-eliminates which came to mind. I thought you just wanted to understand what I thought a non-eliminate was?

Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider  as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?

But yes, when it comes to sorting the brilliant from the very good then purity of line is important.

[carlisle slapper]

Horror arete at bridestones is a very close true non eliminate if the boulder was just a little further from the gully and didnt have crucifiction on it or a possible sitstart, as in order to say you've climbed horror arete to people you are implicitly agreeing to the fact you haven't started and traversed off, havent stemmed up the gully whilst touching the holds, or done a sitter. A true non eliminate/ non rule following boulder problem wouldn't need any of that as the options to digress arent there.

When i agree to climb high fidelity, i have to not climb up low fidelity or spotify (my problem to the left) I have the choice to from the start holds. Its true once i set off the line is inescapable but its not a true non eliminate as there is a choice. From the start of zooyork i can climb into Guacamole (and probably JUJU) its also a sitter so i am delibirately eliminating the stand as an option and arbitrarily adding more difficulty

[Bonjoy]

They're all fails in the black and white totally non eliminate sense

For that assertion to hold any water you'd have to explain what is being eliminated on those climbs. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

If that is genuinely a list of the boulder problems that you find most inspiring

As I said, it's not, it's just a list of good non-eliminates which came to mind. I thought you just wanted to understand what I thought a non-eliminate was?

Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider  as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?

But yes, when it comes to sorting the brilliant from the very good then purity of line is important.

Fair point. I didn't ask for a list of what most inspires you. Would the list be much different if I had?

[Will Hunt]

I think it would be too personal to be relevant to the discussion, and I'd have to think about it a lot more. It would probably be fairly heavy on aretes and highballs (preferably highball aretes), but that's just a personal preference.

[Andy F]

The Knife, Pex Hill. Highball, non-eliminate, inescapable, line.

[mrjonathanr]

I find this discussion a bit surreal on the whole. Franco climbed a line adjacent to and easier than Andy’s. Andy’s takes the line of the prow and pulls right at the top, Franco’s takes the wall to the right.

For this, above a stack of pads, he claims an ascent of The Prow at E9 7a. Like I said, what he has climbed looks great, is highly impressive and deserves to be lauded. But E9 7a, on a wall near the arête? Looking forward to the upgrade of Careless Torque to E11 (now there’s a real prow).

[36chambers]

I think it would be too personal to be relevant to the discussion, and I'd have to think about it a lot more. It would probably be fairly heavy on aretes and highballs (preferably highball aretes), but that's just a personal preference.

Aretes are some of the worse offenders for rules/"eliminates". In most of the HIYH videos I've seen, people start a move in from the FA... I know you're thinking, "well pull on wherever you can reach", but how many pads is kosher and where does it end Will?? 4-Pad-Stack Ben is ready and waiting.

(also Ju Ju is a poor suggestion, as who actually knows which undercuts you're supposed to start on?)

[GCW]

Fight on Black

Not a bad shout as a comparison. After the hard arête start you can exit left or right, or even move more easily right onto the wall using the runnel holds.

[edshakey]

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/opinions/the_blurry_line_-_when_does_a_sequence_become_a_line-14240

Just when you thought the thread was over.

Definitely chuckled at 'The Delta Varian'

[Bradders]

Excellent, let the show go on!

Not read the whole thing yet but skimmed down and randomly landed here:

The first thing we need to decide is whether this line is a boulder problem or a route. As far as I'm aware, every prior ascent has been headpointed

Err, no. All ascents so far have done it as a highball above pads. I.e., it's a boulder problem!

[remus]

Excellent, let the show go on!

Not read the whole thing yet but skimmed down and randomly landed here:

The first thing we need to decide is whether this line is a boulder problem or a route. As far as I'm aware, every prior ascent has been headpointed

Err, no. All ascents so far have done it as a highball above pads. I.e., it's a boulder problem!

When does a highball become a solo with pads under it?

[Bradders]

Dropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.

[Doylo]

I'd call anyone a narcissist who had their personal drone flying above them whilst climbing. Along with the other obvious attention craving stuff etc. He's not alone but most the others are so beige I wouldn't even bother commenting ( that's a compliment). The mental health stuff is bollocks to garner sympathy on UKC forum.  You don't have to post what you climb all the time nevermind trying to get the occasional bite. If you truly climb for yourself you can live without the acclaim and you don't get anything negative back. Griffin Whiteside/Toby Saxton/ Micky Page all pretty much world class without needing any acclaim whatsoever so why should lesser mortals?  I enjoy his antics, I like a wind up merchant and people with personality and it's cool he's doing the bold technical stuff that's gone out of fashion but if you want a lot of exposure/fame and certain things you do/say are somewhat inflammatory then don't be surprised when you get comments you might not like. John Dunne got torn apart for years and that was pre-internet.  Imagine Jerry and Richie Patterson on a forum in the 90s, would have been absolutely brutal.  Got to take it on the chin not writing articles on a website full of luvvies. 

[jwi]

I find this discussion a bit surreal on the whole. Franco climbed a line adjacent to and easier than Andy’s. Andy’s takes the line of the prow and pulls right at the top, Franco’s takes the wall to the right.

+1

Having nothing else to go by then the videos and Steve's photos, surely no one truly thinks that the Prow and the Wall is the same boulder problem? People who are arguing this point do that because they like to argue? (I approve of this behaviour, of course.)

[SamT]

  Imagine Jerry and Richie Patterson on a forum in the 90s, would have been absolutely brutal. 

 

[Will Hunt]

Dropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.

Is this what Andy/Ned/Dan/Will did? How much is known about the varying levels of pre-inspection/pre-practice?


Boulder or route? It's neither. It's a highball. You don't slap up that top bit like you're two inches off the floor, you creep up in a way that if you blow it you're not going to somersault through the air. There's a wholly different level of risk involved.

The Prow was climbed above pads but written up in the routes guide, on a buttress with plenty of trad routes (High T, Feanor, The Entertainer, The Crucifix), as an E9 7a. It's since been written up as a highball Font 8A (E9 7a). It's not true to pretend that it's just a boulder problem.

[rodma]

Dropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.

Is this what Andy/Ned/Dan/Will did? How much is known about the varying levels of pre-inspection/pre-practice?


Boulder or route? It's neither. It's a highball. You don't slap up that top bit like you're two inches off the floor, you creep up in a way that if you blow it you're not going to somersault through the air. There's a wholly different level of risk involved.

The Prow was climbed above pads but written up in the routes guide, on a buttress with plenty of trad routes (High T, Feanor, The Entertainer, The Crucifix), as an E9 7a. It's since been written up as a highball Font 8A (E9 7a). It's not true to pretend that it's just a boulder problem.

My history is a little ropey, if you'll pardon the pun, bit is it not in the routes guide partly because too significant a line to leave out and because the f.a. was done after the publishing of the boulder guide? Or was it just in the role guide because it was the only boulder problem at the crag that topped out, with the exception of that wee nadser slab?

This thread has got me thinking about blood sport at shaftoe (Andy's original line, or at least what the photo of him on it shows) and the photo of Andy on crouching Tiger at Kyloe, where he's using that awesome feature slightly further left.

Steve? Help!

[Will Hunt]

Dropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.

Is this what Andy/Ned/Dan/Will did? How much is known about the varying levels of pre-inspection/pre-practice?


Boulder or route? It's neither. It's a highball. You don't slap up that top bit like you're two inches off the floor, you creep up in a way that if you blow it you're not going to somersault through the air. There's a wholly different level of risk involved.

The Prow was climbed above pads but written up in the routes guide, on a buttress with plenty of trad routes (High T, Feanor, The Entertainer, The Crucifix), as an E9 7a. It's since been written up as a highball Font 8A (E9 7a). It's not true to pretend that it's just a boulder problem.

My history is a little ropey, if you'll pardon the pun, bit is it not in the routes guide partly because too significant a line to leave out and because the f.a. was done after the publishing of the boulder guide? Or was it just in the role guide because it was the only boulder problem at the crag that topped out, with the exception of that wee nadser slab?

This thread has got me thinking about blood sport at shaftoe (Andy's original line, or at least what the photo of him on it shows) and the photo of Andy on crouching Tiger at Kyloe, where he's using that awesome feature slightly further left.

Steve? Help!

Bouldering guide came out in 2008. Steve might know the whys and wherefores of The Prow, but most(?) of the boulder problems have been topped out, I think. We've just now stopped topping them out.

Good little bit of Kyloe trivia which Steve told me about the other evening. What we now normally call Jocks and Geordies is actually called Jock's, which was climbed to the break by Cubby. A group of north-easterners, clearly feeling left out, then topped it out and named the full line Jocks and Geordies.

[rodma]

Hi Will

I want aware of the jocks story, but am well aware of the fact that we now drop off or downclimb from the break on the start of old routes

I just couldn't think of any full height boulder problems there with the exception of the Nadser, which is at the shortest bit of the crag

I actually hadn't realised how recent the guidebook was, despite owning it since publication. There's even a photo of a guy who looks like a younger, stronger version of me in it