I think in the context of this discussion about one of the UK's very best lines, at one of the most enigmatic crags in one of our noblest climbing areas, we're talking about purity and beauty in pretty strict terms. We're splitting hairs at the highest level of quality because we venerate rock climbing.
Make My Heart Fly
Heaven in your HandsDid the first ascensionist not climb the arete only and now people lank out right to the crimp
Matterhorn Arete. Hmmm.
What Franco's done poses questions: what is The Prow? Is The Prow the feature or is it Earl's solution to it? Has Franco repeated The Prow? What about Dan/Ned/Will? Is The Prow everything that we'd imagined it to be? I'm leaning towards saying that Franco has climbed the prow, even if not The Prow - he's done a pretty cool looking right-hand variant. I think the fact that such a skirting was possible diminishes The Prow somewhat - I expect it's still 3-stars but some of the shine has come off (remember that I think that tight lines and rules are more illogical at height than they are on lowballs).
Quote from: Bonjoy on February 08, 2022, 02:29:23 pmOut of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?OK, I'll take the bait. This should be fun!Off the top of my head (these aren't necessarily my favourite climbs, I haven't even been on some of them, but they're all good and not eliminate):Matterhorn AreteNot To Be Taken AwayFight on BlackGroovejetRon's GrooveAye n Ard CrackJu Ju ClubZoo York (I presume. Never touched it)High Fidelity (Presumably, obvs)Sole FusionBen's GrooveCrystal MethodThe Great FlakePinkyWhisky GaloreSuccessor StateLayby AreteHeaven in your HandsMake My Heart FlyI suspect I could go on and on and on.
Out of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?
They're all fails in the black and white totally non eliminate sense
If that is genuinely a list of the boulder problems that you find most inspiring
Quote from: carlisle slapper on February 08, 2022, 03:49:37 pmThey're all fails in the black and white totally non eliminate senseFor that assertion to hold any water you'd have to explain what is being eliminated on those climbs. I'm happy to be proven wrong.Quote from: Bonjoy on February 08, 2022, 03:55:31 pmIf that is genuinely a list of the boulder problems that you find most inspiring As I said, it's not, it's just a list of good non-eliminates which came to mind. I thought you just wanted to understand what I thought a non-eliminate was?Quote from: Bonjoy on February 08, 2022, 03:55:31 pmOut of interest, can you list some of these, so I can see what you consider as not 'eliminate in any way whatsoever'?But yes, when it comes to sorting the brilliant from the very good then purity of line is important.
I think it would be too personal to be relevant to the discussion, and I'd have to think about it a lot more. It would probably be fairly heavy on aretes and highballs (preferably highball aretes), but that's just a personal preference.
Fight on Black
The first thing we need to decide is whether this line is a boulder problem or a route. As far as I'm aware, every prior ascent has been headpointed
Excellent, let the show go on! Not read the whole thing yet but skimmed down and randomly landed here: QuoteThe first thing we need to decide is whether this line is a boulder problem or a route. As far as I'm aware, every prior ascent has been headpointed Err, no. All ascents so far have done it as a highball above pads. I.e., it's a boulder problem!
I find this discussion a bit surreal on the whole. Franco climbed a line adjacent to and easier than Andy’s. Andy’s takes the line of the prow and pulls right at the top, Franco’s takes the wall to the right.
Imagine Jerry and Richie Patterson on a forum in the 90s, would have been absolutely brutal.
Dropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.
Quote from: Bradders on February 09, 2022, 12:18:22 pmDropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.Is this what Andy/Ned/Dan/Will did? How much is known about the varying levels of pre-inspection/pre-practice?Boulder or route? It's neither. It's a highball. You don't slap up that top bit like you're two inches off the floor, you creep up in a way that if you blow it you're not going to somersault through the air. There's a wholly different level of risk involved.The Prow was climbed above pads but written up in the routes guide, on a buttress with plenty of trad routes (High T, Feanor, The Entertainer, The Crucifix), as an E9 7a. It's since been written up as a highball Font 8A (E9 7a). It's not true to pretend that it's just a boulder problem.
Quote from: Will Hunt on February 09, 2022, 01:29:26 pmQuote from: Bradders on February 09, 2022, 12:18:22 pmDropping a rope down a boulder problem to give it a quick clean or even try the moves does not make it a trad route.Is this what Andy/Ned/Dan/Will did? How much is known about the varying levels of pre-inspection/pre-practice?Boulder or route? It's neither. It's a highball. You don't slap up that top bit like you're two inches off the floor, you creep up in a way that if you blow it you're not going to somersault through the air. There's a wholly different level of risk involved.The Prow was climbed above pads but written up in the routes guide, on a buttress with plenty of trad routes (High T, Feanor, The Entertainer, The Crucifix), as an E9 7a. It's since been written up as a highball Font 8A (E9 7a). It's not true to pretend that it's just a boulder problem.My history is a little ropey, if you'll pardon the pun, bit is it not in the routes guide partly because too significant a line to leave out and because the f.a. was done after the publishing of the boulder guide? Or was it just in the role guide because it was the only boulder problem at the crag that topped out, with the exception of that wee nadser slab?This thread has got me thinking about blood sport at shaftoe (Andy's original line, or at least what the photo of him on it shows) and the photo of Andy on crouching Tiger at Kyloe, where he's using that awesome feature slightly further left.Steve? Help!