[andy moles]

For onsighting / ground-upping at your limit it’s fucking dangerous to rely on dubious fixed gear.

Isn't that just part of the judgement call and skillset of the trad leader??

It is, and always will be, because even if there is a total moratorium on fixed gear on trad routes there will still be stuck nuts, old threads, bail gear and relic pegs. But that doesn't strike me as a good argument for more of it, or for keeping it where's a choice to be made.

[mark20]

I don't believe that lack of traffic is a good justification for bolting trad routes.

Taken on its own I would strongly agree, but I think it's reasonable to consider it as a factor among other considerations.

Yes I think in certain circumstances it could be considered. But other considerations such as, is it a massive fucking crack with natural protection all the way up, should take precedent

[Bonjoy]

Supercrack is a funny one. It was a pretty unjustifiable bit of retrobolting in retrospect, and yet with the benefit of hindsight was it bad that it happened? I ask that because it will probably be lost forever soon, once the houses are built in the quarry (work has started). Lots of people have enjoyed climbing it in the years it has been bolted. Going by ascent frequency as a trad route it would plausibly have had exceedingly few if any ascents otherwise. The crack was full of mud, and setting up an abseil on top awkward, so trad ascents would have required a high degree of pre ascent effort. Not ideal for would be onsight attempts. I guess that's why no one ever did it. It always looked amazing and super safe, but the dirtiness was sufficiently off-putting to stop anyone ever repeating it. None of which is to say it should have been bolted (I'm agnostic), just that it's not as clear cut as it looks on paper.

[shark]

Millers Tale wasn't retroed. The bolt was placed to back up the Peg and Andy B was asked beforehand.

Adding a bolt where there wasn’t one before is retro bolting. The peg still looked serviceable and I recall backing it up with a wire. To my mind the bolt was unnecessary.

[Hydraulic Man]

We will have to disagree on that one Simon. What's your thoughts on the bolting of routes up the river at Central that no one seems to have mentioned?

[peterherd]

I went along to the BMC meeting. It was disappointing not to see more than 1 of my contemporaries in age (29) there, especially given such a strong scene of teens-20's-30's age trad climbers in N Wales . Some useful questions asked but sadly the fundamental one of "should we have these at all" gaining little traction. Within the group that attended there was quite a lot of support for these bolts (and yes, from the horses mouth, they are drilled and glued). Some of the reasoning includes 'freedom for future climbers to be able to enjoy the routes as we did' and 'safety'. 75% of the bolts I've come across are in trad routes that are well protected without additional bolts and at no change to the grade ie Quickstep, The Cruise. Others are a different style of approach ie Painted Walls. Id say watch this space for N Stack Wall.

[grimer]

It's a terrible practice (he said, secretly scribbling down all these routes for a ticklist for next summer).

[Fiend]

I went along to the BMC meeting. It was disappointing not to see more than 1 of my contemporaries in age (29) there, especially given such a strong scene of teens-20's-30's age trad climbers in N Wales . Some useful questions asked but sadly the fundamental one of "should we have these at all" gaining little traction.

Calum at least was intending to be there but was recovering from illness.

I did try to highlight that question as a pre-cursor to whether Si Witcher's proposed list is necessary, i.e. if replacing pegs with bolts is acceptable then the list isn't needed, if replacing pegs with bolts if not acceptable then the list is useful to see the damage done.

[northern yob]

I went along to the BMC meeting. It was disappointingf not to see more than 1 of my contemporaries in age (29) there, especially given such a strong scene of teens-20's-30's age trad climbers in N Wales . Some useful questions asked but sadly the fundamental one of "should we have these at all" gaining little traction. Within the group that attended there was quite a lot of support for these bolts (and yes, from the horses mouth, they are drilled and glued). Some of the reasoning includes 'freedom for future climbers to be able to enjoy the routes as we did' and 'safety'. 75% of the bolts I've come across are in trad routes that are well protected without additional bolts and at no change to the grade ie Quickstep, The Cruise. Others are a different style of approach ie Painted Walls. Id say watch this space for N Stack Wall.

I attended one of the virtual ones deep in lockdown when this all first came out. My take away feelings were pretty similar.

The BMC is absolutely toothless when it comes to any sort of action, whilst it provides an excellent opportunity to discuss things, it’s never going to do anything other than talk.

The only way to deal with someone being a prick and doing their own thing is to be a prick of a similar magnitude and go and take them out!( contrary to popular belief i usually try to not be a prick)

It seems like there are multiple examples of these bolts that aren’t in anyway called for or needed regardless of where you stand on the ethical arguments ( citadel, quickstep, the cruise) these shouldn’t in my view stay in, they really are the wedge. And if they stay in much longer they will become normalised. Even if this stops now these bolts have no place being where they are.

I’m not from nor do I live in North Wales if I did I might be more minded to do something about the more obvious examples….. Maybe North Stack might be the thing that pushes locals to do something, maybe North Stack might be the thing that pushes outsiders to do something. Maybe they will just stop appearing…..

[petejh]

Fair point about Adar's resurgence in popularity being partly down to the new guidebook, but I don't think Blood Bank would be getting a fraction the number of ascents if it had no fixed gear. Whether the pegs are drilled and glued or not (I'm actually not certain in this case, I didn't look closely?) is kind of beside the point with regard to popularity because like you say, they're new and they look convincing (and there's more than one).

Anyway Blood Bank is a good case in point for the debate about pure trad vs. trad with the odd bit of fixed gear. Distinct crux section around 8-10m which doesn't appear to offer any convincing leader-placeable protection (maybe there's something in the little overlap?) making the difference between a serious and unbalanced E5 and a cruxy but safe E3/4.

They are drilled and glued - see pics below of the bolts from the upper crux of Bloodbank. All these disguised bolts are drilled and glued, it's how they've been designed to be placed. They're a 12mm glue-in bolt with a straight (non-tapered) shaft. Because there isn't a taper on the shaft as there is with a blade or angle peg you can't drive them ever tighter into a seam or crack. And stainless isn't designed to be repeated smashed in with a hammer. The same bolts are on the 3-bolt lower-off of The Strand, Cruise, Barbarossa, Citadel, perhaps a couple of belays on main wall (I haven't yet seen them), all over the trad routes at Craig y Forwyn, Painted Wall, Pen Trwyn, etc. Others I've forgotten. I'm not against every one of them, but as I keep banging on about I think it's important climbers are made fully aware that they're clipping bolts. Then they can form their own opinions based on the facts, not on deceptions. Guidebooks calling them pegs don't help.

I liked the routes on Adar. I was fully aware that what I was climbing were 'spad' or 'trort' routes.


top glue-in bolt on Bloobank. You can see the resin as the light cream-colour around the shaft:





second to top glue-in bolt:





Lower down by the first crux, the 2nd fixed piece is a bolt. The first piece is a peg.

[duncan]

Thanks Pete. It's a shame there is no input from the youth. Here's my view, fwiw, from another non-youth.

Of the places discussed I only know about the bolts at Gogarth and Rhoscolyn. There has been an abseil point at the top of pitch one of The Strand for decades and, to my mind, a good fixed anchor make sense here. I’d support something similar at the top of Esgair Maen Gwyn. I've always managed to find anchors at the top of routes at Rhoscolyn without the need for bolts or the wall. I'm not that fussed about these though.

I’ve climbed or failed on Citadel, Fifteen Men... and The Cruise. These do not need bolts and they should be removed. I've done The Cad with the original caving self-drilled bolt when it was in very poor shape and before the thread on The Clown was a thing. I accepted it was illusory protection and the only thing that might have held was the cam in the flake. The remaining stub (a replacement of the original) can be removed or left to rot. I have my views on the peg in The Bells... but this is not a route I'm ever going to do.

[Fiend]

Gonna be a bugger to get an angle grinder into that wee niche 

I said to a few people after doing Bloodbank (a year ago - well before the current discussion appeared) that it was a good F7a (I was quite sweaty and missed a potentially useful wee sidepull, so maybe stiff F6c+). I think it would be possible to put some gear in the slanting flake thing you're laybacking "if you're strong enough to hang around and place it", would be well worth E5 then.

[petejh]

The flake down low? I stuffed bomber gear behind that.

The top crux would be bold without the bolts but not that bold. Route might be standard E5 without the bolts. With them I though stiff E3. French 6c at most.

[Fiend]

Just been reading the BMC North Wales Fixed Gear Policy, quoted here for reference (with edits for clarity):

Replacing pegs with bolts:

Main points for climbers to consider before placing or replacing fixed gear
• access, land ownership, environmental status and existing agreements
• opportunities for hand-placed, removable protection
• history, traditions and ethics of the area and crag
• legacy for future climbers
• sustainability of any fixed gear used
• aesthetics – general appearance of the crag environment
• rock type, nature and location of the crag
• personal level of equipper’s experience, technical knowledge and competence
• views of the first ascensionist (if relevant/feasible)

Improvements in equipment means most trad routes can be adequately protected using handplaced gear, with little or no need to rely on any fixed gear they may still contain. Such old pieces often have scant worth as protection, or as anchors on stances, but may provide useful waymarks, and a reminder that placing any fixed gear prone to rotting rapidly is not a good plan.

On occasion, a piece of fixed gear is significant to the grade, character and balance of a route. Many such pieces have been routinely replaced, like-for-like, by conventional pegs or threaded slings which, in turn, will rot and become useless.

Since 2010, a small number of key, rotting pegs on trad routes in North Wales coastal areas have
been replaced with stainless steel ‘eco pegs’ (ed: bolts)
Significant evidence indicates that these will remain effective for much longer than conventionally constructed and placed pegs. Placement has involved the removal of all rust debris from the site of the old peg to avoid cross-contamination (using a peg or chisel, or sometimes a drill) and the use of a suitable cement to protect and secure the new eco peg (ed: bolts).

The general consensus is that these eco pegs (ed: bolts) now form part of our varied history and most will remain in place. Any future development of this sort should be considered carefully and widely, recognising not only the adventurous nature of trad routes and the need to avoid sanitising them, but also the original character and balance of individual climbs.

Is that you guys' general consensus??


Retro-bolting trad routes:

If rock quality and availability of suitable protection indicate that a worthwhile trad line can be preserved (or added as a 1st ascent) then this is to be commended: rock quality and vegetation cover are major factors - removing vegetation usually has negative environmental implications and bolting on poor rock makes little sense - both should be avoided.

Some old, now vegetated, trad climbs are often best left to provide a haven for plants and animals. There has been some retrobolting of what may be seen as neglected/poor/loose trad climbs, often by removing loose material and changing the line slightly to seek better rock. This is a grey area, and careful consideration and consultation should take place before any action - there is an evolving view that some crags or routes should now be left to return to nature.

There is an implication here that retro-bolting neglected trad routes firstly needs careful consideration and consultation, and secondly "popularising" neglected trad routes by retro-bolting seems contrary to this statement.

[petejh]

Since 2010, a small number of key, rotting pegs on trad routes in North Wales coastal areas have
been replaced with stainless steel ‘eco pegs’ (ed: bolts)
Significant evidence indicates that these will remain effective for much longer than conventionally constructed and placed pegs. Placement has involved the removal of all rust debris from the site of the old peg to avoid cross-contamination (using a peg or chisel, or sometimes a drill) and the use of a suitable cement to protect and secure the new eco peg (ed: bolts).

The general consensus is that these eco pegs (ed: bolts) now form part of our varied history and most will remain in place. Any future development of this sort should be considered carefully and widely, recognising not only the adventurous nature of trad routes and the need to avoid sanitising them, but also the original character and balance of individual climbs.

Is that you guys' general consensus??

My answer is how can there be a consensus, when most climbers didn't even know that bolts have been placed to replace pegs.

Climbers have been led to believe these are pegs, funnily enough, by people calling them 'pegs'. Including people who write guidebooks and BMC policies - 'eco pegs'.

So any consensus on replacing pegs with bolts is mythical. A consensus, if it exists, is more along the lines of:
'we like having bomber fixed gear (i.e. bolts) to clip on these E4s,5s and 6s in place of the old pegs where they're felt needed. But we don't want these to look like bolts. And we don't want to have to think about them being bolts. Even though if you ask the right people, or look closely enough, they obviously are bolts'.

I suppose it says much about the levels of self-denial and semantic loopholes some climbers will resort to when considering the thorny issue of fixed gear on trad, that the N.Wales BMC policy itself can't even bring itself to be genuine when describing drilled and glued bolts on trad routes - instead using whitewash terms such as 'eco pegs' 

[SA Chris]

I know it's semantics, I wonder what the response would be if they were called "eco-bolts". I bet acceptance level would be a lot lower. 

[mrjonathanr]

What about ‘Thin End of the Wedge Bolts’? Would that be fairer?

[northern yob]

If that’s the general consensus, I won’t be angry, I’ll just be very very disappointed……

[ali k]

For onsighting / ground-upping at your limit it’s fucking dangerous to rely on dubious fixed gear.

Isn't that just part of the judgement call and skillset of the trad leader?? Knowing that non-bolt in-situ gear might not be reliable

I disagree. The skill of a trad leader on an onsight is in reading the rock, both to climb it and find places to protect themselves. Not in judging how good an old rusty bit of pre-placed gear might be when you arrive at it. Cos let’s face it, a peg is just pre-placed gear. The only difference is it was bashed in years ago by someone you probably don’t know rather than a cam or wire placed by you or your mate the day you want to climb the route.

[mrjonathanr]

For onsighting / ground-upping at your limit it’s fucking dangerous to rely on dubious fixed gear.

Isn't that just part of the judgement call and skillset of the trad leader?? Knowing that non-bolt in-situ gear might not be reliable

I disagree. The skill of a trad leader on an onsight is in reading the rock, both to climb it and find places to protect themselves. Not in judging how good an old rusty bit of pre-placed gear might be when you arrive at it. Cos let’s face it, a peg is just pre-placed gear. The only difference is it was bashed in years ago by someone you probably don’t know rather than a cam or wire placed by you or your mate the day you want to climb the route.

I think Fiend is right. The skill of onsighting is to cope with the route as it you find it; you’re arguing for coping with the route, but with one of the nasty bits taken out. Onsight lite.

[jwi]

As someone who has replaced fixed pitons on "trad" routes, I do not know how anyone could judge a fixed piton without a hammer or by aggressively jump testing them. I suspect that anyone who claim they can are lying to themselves.

[mrjonathanr]

Agreed- fixed gear can’t be completely relief on, it needs backing up. I don’t see that how that justifies sticking a bolt in though.

[ali k]

I think Fiend is right. The skill of onsighting is to cope with the route as you find it; you’re arguing for coping with the route, but with one of the nasty bits taken out. Onsight lite.

One of the nasty bits that should never have been there in the first place taken out. I’m arguing for trending towards removing pegs from British trad climbing altogether. If a peg can be backed up with natural pro then it’s unnecessary anyway so get rid. If the peg can’t be backed up then it leads to this dilemma of whether to replace it with a bolt to ‘preserve’ the route, which should never be acceptable IMO. So get rid, and take the route back to its original state. And update the grade to suit.

[spidermonkey09]

Would there not be a lot of routes that would fall into disuse if crucial pegs were removed and there was nothing to back them up? I'm talking most of Nesscliffe, a lot of hard routes in the Leap...its not just one or two surely?

[jwi]

Agreed- fixed gear can’t be completely relief on, it needs backing up. I don’t see that how that justifies sticking a bolt in though.

To be abundantly clear, I am not arguing about that. I just argue that being able to judge in situ pitons (without potentially destructive testing) is a skill that is impossible to possess.