[petejh]

Think the current 'experience worthiness exchange rate' is one E1 onsight lead = two 6b onsights. So 0.5 E1 to 6bs on NWL is the current exchange rate. Don't chop beyond this or the BoE has to step in.

[Fiend]

Sounds to me with that rate that it's twice as important for decent trad E1s to be left the fuck alone from bolting 

[andy moles]

I know, funny jokes right, because the lower grade bolt clippers obviously aren't going to represent themselves as well as the defenders of the faith.

There's a straight-faced point to be made about representation though. If you look at what people actually do, not just who's being most vocal, more bolts always get the popular vote. Climbing is not a democracy, but I think more and more as the culture changes this puts the onus on trad conservatives to bring people with them - and not just with recourse to 'it's the way we've always done it' or other variations on status quo. Bring people along, sell what's so good about trad that's worth preserving. I don't see positive arguments pulling against increases in fixed gear often, only negative ones (and I'm guilty of this myself).

[Fiend]

Yup, that's something I try to do - highlight the quality of the trad routes (especially if they've been undersold in a guidebook), that they're reasonable to lead on trad gear, and hopefully present them as appealing and manageable propositions. And to reiterate a general appreciation and respect for the amount of valuable new non-retroed sport climbing that's been developed too.

[petejh]

Yup, that's something I try to do - highlight the quality of the trad routes (especially if they've been undersold in a guidebook),

You appear to have developed a hobby-horse about a guidebook 'underselling' routes - in reality giving routes which are perfectly OK but completely unremarkable in the context of N.Wales (or even the Ormes) 0 stars. The book contains a very clear description of the parameters for star rating that anyone can read, understand and get on with having a good time.

You now appear to be developing a narrative that because some of your pet routes have been retro'd it's partly the fault of the guidebook for the authors to not have awarded these, umm well zero star routes actually, more stars... This is a sure-fire recipe for diluting the meaning of quality just because Fiend has found yet another local just and righteous cause to campaign for.

Hypocritically you also have a hobby horse about guidebooks (Rockfax) over-starring routes and enjoy voicing your opinion on this crime too.

I'm beginning to think you just secretly enjoy the attention from being vocal. It's a bit tedious tbh. 0 stars from me (but that isn't so bad).

[Fiend]

Wow. That is pointlessly personally directed, and varies between wrong (hobby horse about underselling routes - NO, narrative - NO, pet routes - NO, cause / campaign / crime - over-exaggerated, hobby horse about Rockfax starring - NO) and extremely wrong (secrely enjoy the attention about being vocal - absolutely NOT, especially when i have to read stuff like what you've just written. I am far more interested in turning up to a crag and doing cool routes or problems. I do very unsecretly enjoy highlighting and showing these off, not for my attention but seeing different areas and unsung gems getting attention).

If it's tedious that's only because you've created a fictious tedious mis-representation of me, my motives, and my passion for climbing  (especially knowing full well in person how overall positive I am about your guide and the climbing it covers). Please don't do that.

[Johnny Brown]

From here Fiend's hobby horse seems to be talking about climbing on the internet. That did seem to be a bit of oversensitivity Pete, and a needlessly personal character attack

I doubt very much if giving those routes one star would have saved them from bolting, but if there is a narrative I see being developed, it's that trad climbing in North Wales is in terminal decline and we might as well bolt stuff on democratic grounds. Have spoken to a few unexpected sources parroting this recently. My main objection to bolting is the human development aspect - the climb becomes a man-made thing. The central point of protected sites like National Parks and SSSIs is that deliberate man-made development is limited in favour of the landscape as it is (or could be). That should probably take precedence over climbing ethical considerations.

[andy moles]

My main objection to bolting is the human development aspect - the climb becomes a man-made thing. The central point of protected sites like National Parks and SSSIs is that deliberate man-made development is limited in favour of the landscape as it is (or could be). That should probably take precedence over climbing ethical considerations.

I find this argument very unconvincing when applied to somewhere like the Orme. For one thing, there's already a lower-off every few feet along the mile of cliffs above Marine Drive whether it's trad or sport, but compared to the roads, the town, the pier, the cable car, the tram, the plantations, the man-made caves, the copper mine and all the rest of it, a few more bolts in the rock is an irrelevance from a human development perspective.

[Johnny Brown]

Sure. I was thinking more of Rhoscolyn or the mountain crags. But we do tend to think these are entirely ethical decisions for our community, rather than looking at the wider view. Most of them are potentially unauthorised development under SSSI regs.

[petejh]

OK that was unfair to characterise Fiend that way and I apologise.

Perhaps I'm being oversensitive. I made a determined effort to make the 'quality rating' in that guide as fair a system as I could based on clear criteria. There's no point in trying to define quality if the idea of 'quality' becomes beholden to any one vocal person's righteous viewpoint. I think if you follow that logic and start trying to protect trad routes from bolting by 'artificially' making them appear like good routes in a guidebook by starring, then the whole thing becomes a load of disingenuous political bs.
 'The routes aren't worthy of a star'. 'The routes got retro-bolted'. Those are two independent facts and should be looked at separately.

In that context it's pretty flipping tiresome to read how these completely unexceptional routes have been ‘undersold’ and ‘deserve a star’ in the same breath as decrying them being retro-bolted.

I do still agree that some of them shouldn’t have been retro-bolted though.

[andy moles]

Was anyone in attendance? Fiend?

[Fiend]

Yes. The issues and questions were at least raised and discussed. No real answers (apart from that BMC funds do not go to the North Wales Bolt Fund and the latter does not control what gets done with the materials it buys for activitists), no consensus on anything to be done and no actions proposed. At least the issues are more open and public and maybe a few more people are aware and can keep discussing them.

[duncan]

But reading some of the facebook threads over the summer, it seems like a local guide has been using North Wales Bolt Fund gear to retro-bolt pure trad routes, for the purpose of guiding and making money. It fucking stinks.

Can you provide links?

[mark20]

Like I said I don't really want to be naming names here. It is searchable if you can stomach scrolling through that facebook group.

[northern yob]

Just made the mistake of scrolling through the North Wales Facebook group…. It really does make for some depressing reading from my side of the debate!

One thing that really struck me is the tide has turned and there’s a real appetite for low/mid grade sport routes, and that lots of people are more than happy for them to be retroed trad routes. I get this and I’m not so elitist to think this doesn’t have some value.

What really troubles me is that the lines are really blurred and in North Wales (not exclusively)there seems to be people just doing there own thing without any consultation with the wider community.

I’m all for bolted routes and areas, I’m also all for trad climbing and trad climbing areas, from my perspective it seems that there are only going to be more sport climbing routes/areas and that it’s the trad areas that need protecting…..

The slow infiltration of glued in bolts on main cliff really highlights to me that there needs to be some clear definition between areas and ethics. The two sides of this should be able to co-exist (like they do in most areas of the country to some degree or other). It just needs some compromise on both sides.

My fear is that in 20-30 yrs time the lines are so blurred that it is seen as perfectly fine for there to be bolted routes at Gogarth, Pembroke or god forbid the Cromlech or on the Grit. I used to think Ken Wilson was full of shit and he was making a mountain out of a mole hill….. times have changed!

Trad climbing doesn’t carry any more or less value than sport climbing. I do however think that trad climbing is genuinely in some kind of danger(all be it very early on) and that if we can’t help it out with some defined lines, and stick to them then Ken might’ve been right…..

[andy moles]

But reading some of the facebook threads over the summer, it seems like a local guide has been using North Wales Bolt Fund gear to retro-bolt pure trad routes, for the purpose of guiding and making money. It fucking stinks.

Which Facebook thread did you get this from? I've been looking for a reference to this motivation for the retro-bolting but I can't find it.

[SamT]

Is this the right place for this...

http://www.niallgrimes.com/jam-crack-climbing-podcast/jcpc-048-the-right-thing-by-mark-and-gus

[spidermonkey09]

I don't have any fear for trad climbing whatsoever. Especially mountain and sea cliff trad. I think its in rude health. Absolutely nobody is proposing full scale bolting of Pembroke or Gogarth. The replacement of shit old pegs with bolts is I think inevitable where no other gear exists, or where its marginal to poor. I don't have a problem with this.

I do agree that consultation is needed every time and people doing it unilaterally isn't on.

[andy moles]

I think the proverbial 'wedge', which does exist even if reference to it has long since become tedious, may be shaped more like a half-normal distribution curve (half a bell) than a uniform wedge.

You can tap away at the low-end stuff, unloved bits of limestone or routes previously dependent on pegs, but when you hit the main bulwark of core trad routes and venues it won't go in further without a lot of resistance.

I also think it's possible (though I'm not sure of this) that sacrificing some mediocre trad routes to retro-bolting may actually benefit the cause of trad in the long-term, because it will appease those who want more sport options.

Any system of consultation will need to be robust and efficient and gain wide respect, otherwise people will continue to crack on and do their own thing.

[mark20]

But reading some of the facebook threads over the summer, it seems like a local guide has been using North Wales Bolt Fund gear to retro-bolt pure trad routes, for the purpose of guiding and making money. It fucking stinks.

Which Facebook thread did you get this from? I've been looking for a reference to this motivation for the retro-bolting but I can't find it.

St Tutno's Upper.
"I was directly involved in equipping these routes. Yes the BMC were consulted. As were a whole host of local climbers. The move was in favour of increasing the popularity of the crag" etc.

A guide, retro-bolting trad routes, with NWBF bolts, with BMC permission (?), for the purpose of "increasing popularity"

 

[andy moles]

I can't see any reference to that in the St Tudno's post - maybe that comment was deleted?

[northern yob]

You can tap away at the low-end stuff, unloved bits of limestone or routes previously dependent on pegs, but when you hit the main bulwark of core trad routes and venues it won't go in further without a lot of resistance.

What like citadel…..? At Gogarth a route at a core trad venue not dependant on pegs. There’s not really been a huge amount of resistance.I’m pretty sure there will be more bolts in main cliff in the next year or so….

[ali k]

Haven't been following the thread in depth so apols if I'm repeating stuff.

By the sound of what's happening in North Wales the blurred lines need to be straightened out pretty fast. Personally I prefer the concept of 'trad only' crags/areas and then 'bolted' areas - as opposed to sport/trad mixed crags which end up being a clusterfuck and inevitably will trend towards sport over time. Malham seems to have settled on a good balance within the same crag now, but probably only cos the trad wings are separated off enough to make them feel distinct.

Re: replacing old knackered pegs with bolts or replacement pegs - this is a retrograde step IMO. I think pegs are the fundamental problem in all this and should just die a death. They are what have blurred and continue to blur the line between trad climbing (no fixed gear - in theory at least) and sport climbing (fixed gear). Okay the old hob nail boot brigade thought pegs were legit coming from a mountaineering perspective where anything goes. But hammering bits of metal into the rock on trad routes to become a permanent-semi-permanent fixture shouldn't be acceptable. It leaves the door open to drilling and glueing them in (what is that if not a bolt? - I agree with Pete). And then further down the line being replaced with a proper bolt. Trad routes should be left so you can climb them bottom to top with gear that can be removed afterwards IMO. In-situ slings are also a bit of a grey area in this respect, but at least they can be replaced without knackering the rock so I have less of a problem with them.

There's tons of trad routes all over the UK that were first done with some pegs. On easier routes the pegs just rotted away and no one thought about hammering new ones in or adding a bolt in their place because standards moved on, equipment got better and what was once cutting edge wasn't any more so the old pegs became redundant. IMO the same should go for harder trad stuff. We should be removing old pegs and leaving the route cleaned up and available for someone with the talent to do it in better style with removeable gear. Then update the grade accordingly. Get rid of the russian roulette nonsense of whether a peg or rotting sling will snap on you or not.

Then on the crags that get designated as a free-for-all the developers can bolt and retro-bolt to their heart's content to make a good sport destination.

[andy moles]

What like citadel…..? At Gogarth a route at a core trad venue not dependant on pegs. There’s not really been a huge amount of resistance.I’m pretty sure there will be more bolts in main cliff in the next year or so….

I'm not saying there aren't times when someone oversteps. I don't think many people support the bolt on Citadel, I certainly don't. I hope you don't know something I don't about more bolts appearing on Main Cliff soon.

[andy moles]

Re: replacing old knackered pegs with bolts or replacement pegs - this is a retrograde step IMO. I think pegs are the fundamental problem in all this and should just die a death.

Broadly I agree with you, though I'm willing to compromise where one or two bolts (where there were once pegs) make the difference between an otherwise excellent trad route and a total chopfest. It seems a shame to 'lose' such routes just to serve an abstract principle.

I would also say that Malham is far from the only crag where sport and trad coexist without controversy. A lot of the best Scottish sport crags (Dumby, Tunnel Wall, Upper Cave, Goat Crag) are also good examples.