[webbo]

Would there not be a lot of routes that would fall into disuse if crucial pegs were removed and there was nothing to back them up? I'm talking most of Nesscliffe, a lot of hard routes in the Leap...its not just one or two surely?

Also Heponstall, Guisecliff and Hawkcliffe  might have some redundant routes.

[Will Hunt]

Agree on "sound judgement of pegs" not really meaning much. I'm a cautious cookie but clipped the cemented-in Shivers Arete peg (the only protection for a 5b crux at the top of the route) last year. It looked in perfect nick. It was pull tested recently and snapped at 1.5kn. It's been replaced with a bolt to preserve a classic E1.

Where there's gear other than the pegs then they obviously don't need replacing, I'm not so sure when the pegs are crucial. The state of the protection on these routes is a big part of how they sit in our psyche. Yukan II without the pegs is a very different thing. Do we want to lose what that thing is now? After all, we glue crucial holds back on don't we...?

[edshakey]

Apologies for asking a very basic question...

What cracks can pegs go into that no other gear will work in? Why are that still needed now cams have gotten very small? I've got it into my head that these kind of placements would surely be replaceable by non fixed gear, but I know that that's definitely a lack of knowledge on my part, having not climbed many routes with pegs (but on some I have climbed, there is gear available in the same crack  ) I'm sure this changes as the climbs get harder and rock gets more compact, but i'm having trouble imagining it

[jwi]

In plenty of thin cracks:
* A brand new piton smashed in with a heavy hammer = belay. Super easy to clip as well.
* An unrealistically well placed micro friend ≈ bodyweight plus. Might take a minute to fiddle in on the onsight

[northern yob]

Would there not be a lot of routes that would fall into disuse if crucial pegs were removed and there was nothing to back them up? I'm talking most of Nesscliffe, a lot of hard routes in the Leap...its not just one or two surely?

Also Heponstall, Guisecliff and Hawkcliffe  might have some redundant routes.

These routes aren’t going to disappear. They will still be there when someone stronger and better comes along and accepts the challenge the rock presents. Anyone who’s run out of routes at a specific grade isn’t looking hard enough, we all need to let go of our ego’s and stop bringing climbs down to our level by smashing bits of metal into them.

“Step up or fuck off”

[webbo]

Agree on "sound judgement of pegs" not really meaning much. I'm a cautious cookie but clipped the cemented-in Shivers Arete peg (the only protection for a 5b crux at the top of the route) last year. It looked in perfect nick. It was pull tested recently and snapped at 1.5kn. It's been replaced with a bolt to preserve a classic E1.

It was a fairly classic E3 without the peg. I can still remember the day I did it which was at least 35 years ago.

[Will Hunt]

Agree on "sound judgement of pegs" not really meaning much. I'm a cautious cookie but clipped the cemented-in Shivers Arete peg (the only protection for a 5b crux at the top of the route) last year. It looked in perfect nick. It was pull tested recently and snapped at 1.5kn. It's been replaced with a bolt to preserve a classic E1.

It was a fairly classic E3 without the peg. I can still remember the day I did it which was at least 35 years ago.

Interesting. I had no idea it had been done prior to the peg.

[webbo]

It was one of those routes where the peg used to get knicked so it would be there for a while, then missing for long periods.

[ali k]

Would there not be a lot of routes that would fall into disuse if crucial pegs were removed and there was nothing to back them up? I'm talking most of Nesscliffe, a lot of hard routes in the Leap...its not just one or two surely?

It would change the nature and grade of a lot of routes to some extent for sure, but I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. Can't think of anything in the Leap that wouldn't be protectable if you removed all the pegs. E.g. Nothing to Fear - all the pegs on the crux had perished when I did it but it was still E8. It would make the runout on 'Do you know where your kiddies are' a bit chunkier and may make it solid E8/bottom end E9? Not really game changers though. Nessy is a weird one. I mean I don't know what Yukan II gets these days but it's about E5 with all those pegs, so might be E7 without? Would still get climbed a lot. If we just leave those pegs to rot, what do we do when they've snapped off? Either smash another peg in and the cycle continues? Or replace with a few bolts? Might as well bolt the lot then...

I just don't see why it's become acceptable to have these bits of pre-placed gear in various states of decomposition littering trad venues, which can then be used as an argument for placing bolts on trad routes.

[remus]

Apologies for asking a very basic question...

What cracks can pegs go into that no other gear will work in? Why are that still needed now cams have gotten very small? I've got it into my head that these kind of placements would surely be replaceable by non fixed gear, but I know that that's definitely a lack of knowledge on my part, having not climbed many routes with pegs (but on some I have climbed, there is gear available in the same crack  ) I'm sure this changes as the climbs get harder and rock gets more compact, but i'm having trouble imagining it

Not cracks, but where pegs have been placed repeatedly in pockets and blown the edges out I've found it hard to get any natural kit in.

[ali k]

It's been replaced with a bolt to preserve a classic E1.

It was a fairly classic E3 without the peg.

This is the problem in a nutshell. Not saying E1 is your limit Will or wanting to sound elitist, but I can see how someone pushing their grade at E1 might think bolting this is justifiable. But to 'preserve' this at E1 when it's only E3 without seems madness to me. And the same principle should apply at whatever grade.

[spidermonkey09]

These routes aren’t going to disappear. They will still be there when someone stronger and better comes along and accepts the challenge the rock presents. Anyone who’s run out of routes at a specific grade isn’t looking hard enough, we all need to let go of our ego’s and stop bringing climbs down to our level by smashing bits of metal into them.

“Step up or fuck off”

What's this, Ken Wilson crossed with The Wire?

I know they won't disappear. But there a lot of routes which would get done more often with a good peg/bolt to aim for than without. We all sit somewhere on a spectrum of how acceptable that is.

I think I am kind of between Ali's view (paraphrased as rip out all the pegs and don't place any bolts) and selective replacement of pegs with bolts as they fail. Think it will always be a route by route case by case basis. I also continue to think trad is not in an existential crisis in the UK so maybe that's affecting my view as well.

[spidermonkey09]

There's a pretty big difference between E3 and E1 tbf.

There's also the question of quality. I'd imagine a lot of routes are better for the presence of a peg, making, say, a balanced E7, compared to when the peg comes off making a very scary and probably unjustifiable to most E8? I know there is mystique around some bold routes in the country but not that many really. I think it pretty likely that a lot of routes simply wouldn't get done.

[northern yob]

These routes aren’t going to disappear. They will still be there when someone stronger and better comes along and accepts the challenge the rock presents. Anyone who’s run out of routes at a specific grade isn’t looking hard enough, we all need to let go of our ego’s and stop bringing climbs down to our level by smashing bits of metal into them.

“Step up or fuck off”

What's this, Ken Wilson crossed with The Wire?

I know they won't disappear. But there a lot of routes which would get done more often with a good peg/bolt to aim for than without. We all sit somewhere on a spectrum of how acceptable that is.

I think I am kind of between Ali's view (paraphrased as rip out all the pegs and don't place any bolts) and selective replacement of pegs with bolts as they fail. Think it will always be a route by route case by case basis. I also continue to think trad is not in an existential crisis in the UK so maybe that's affecting my view as well.

Ha ha I’m more Ken Wilson crossed with bo selecta!

That wasn’t directed at you, sorry if it came across that way.  It’s something an old timer said to me a long time ago and it’s always kinda resonated! It seemed to fit the point I’m trying to make.

I completely get what you are saying, and in an ideal world it should be on a route by route basis with the nuances of each particular route taken into account.

That isn’t what’s happening, I wish it could be. I take the line I do which is pretty hard because I think it has to be black or white or it just gets abused( like it is being) my natural position would be similar to yours I suspect, but grey areas don’t work!

I’m 100% with Ali, we shouldn’t be replacing fixed gear on trad routes. We should be stepping up to the challenge.

The grey area is just being abused! There are bolts on main cliff that are apparently now part of our varied history…. I think that is a huge step backwards and a real threat to one of the very special disciplines of climbing in Britain.

[ali k]

We could all spend the coronation bank hol stripping fixed gear out of our local routes. It'll be like having a reset down the wall...

[spidermonkey09]

No worries! Are there any pegbolts on Main Cliff that are justified does anyone think? Could someone local not just remove the ones on Citadel and Dead Man's Chest and hope whoever is doing it gets the point? Appreciate we shouldn't have to etc.

[Fiend]

This is the problem in a nutshell. Not saying E1 is your limit Will or wanting to sound elitist, but I can see how someone pushing their grade at E1 might think bolting this is justifiable. But to 'preserve' this at E1 when it's only E3 without seems madness to me. And the same principle should apply at whatever grade.

That does indeed sound elitist. You could equally say "to preserve this at E7 when it's only E9 without seems like madness to me...". The degree of grade change in this case is from being normally protected to guaranteed injury.  The "cruciality" of fixed gear should take the degree of that change into account, whether it's to only a dangerous E3 or only a dangerous E9.

Also worth noting this is in a Lancs quarry thus slightly different and maybe more lenient trad ethics (not too lenient though).

[mrjonathanr]

It's been replaced with a bolt to preserve a classic E1.

It was a fairly classic E3 without the peg.

This is the problem in a nutshell. Not saying E1 is your limit Will or wanting to sound elitist, but I can see how someone pushing their grade at E1 might think bolting this is justifiable. But to 'preserve' this at E1 when it's only E3 without seems madness to me. And the same principle should apply at whatever grade.

What he said ^

[Teaboy]

As usual in the UK we are conflating the issue of fixed gear with trad climbing when the real erosion to trad ethics (which I presume is the primary concern here) is taking place on routes with no fixed gear. It seems odd to me that people are so concerned about a handful of routes being resto-modded whilst on-sight trad climbing seems to be dying on it’s arse. I’ve seen enough films of high end headpoints to know its not guaranteed outcome climbing but I’d still say the skills and experience of sprinting up a pre-practised route with known and often tested gear, is closer to sport climbing than setting off on a pure on-sight. Yet, we unquestionably accept the former as pure trad and the latter as a unacceptable if it involves fixed gear that’s been replaced. Of course people still on-sight Right Wall, the Main Cliff E5s, stuff in Pembroke etc, (and to that list we can now add Horrorshow and the routes at Criag yr Adar) but there are loads of E5 in Wales that don’t get done. If we strip the “bolts” from Horrorshow and Craig yr Adar they will go back on this list; if that happens trad climbing really been preserved/improved?

I know Steve McClure and Caff have been pushing the on-sight bar but very few climbers I know or follow seem to, even those that do trad. For an example of how things are take a look at UKC logbook for Merionydd. 25 odd ascents in 2 years for this E7 but not a single one for the longer standing 3 star E4 it bisects (with a peg!). This isn’t a slight on anyone who’s done it (I fully intend to have a look myself once I’m fit enough to walk in!) , just that when we get all concerned about the demise of trad climbing it is from the weirdly myopic perspective of fixed gear.

So yeah, go out and strip routes of all fixed gear but I'm not sure if that leaves UK trad in a better place if people then walk past it in favour of a quick headpoint around the corner. Applaud someone for removing the bolt from Barbarossa but don’t be surprised when it reverts to sea grass and no one has at for another 10 years.

To be clear, I'm not saying anyone has to go and on-sight anything just that I bristle slightly when trad climbing is defined by headpointing only.

[T_B]

Ali keeps talking about Pembroke. I can’t think of any route in Pembroke with a crucial peg. Pembroke is one area and the rock lends itself to natural pro.

I’d estimate 70% of E6s and 80% of E7 and above routes in the Lakes have pegs in them. It’s not like they’re getting loads of ascents. There are a lot of E7s in the Lakes which could be attempted GU. Take all the pegs out and you’d have lots of really dangerous E8 6bs. The reality is you’d have more headpointing. Progress?

I’m sympathetic to the hardcore stance, but I don’t think it works beyond sea cliffs maybe. Do you really want Scimitar Ridge stripped of all the fixed gear? It would make many of the routes completely unprotected. No one would climb them. What’s the point?

“No drilling” on trad routes seems pretty black and white to me. Solves the peg-boltshit issue.

[andy moles]

“No drilling” on trad routes seems pretty black and white to me. Solves the peg-boltshit issue.

Except that eventually you just get back to the same situation you described above, when the pegs have rotted and no one tries ground-up any more.

What's so much worse about a little 12mm hole than smashing a peg into a seam?

[T_B]

Unless the pegs are replaced. This does actually happen.

I’ve placed pegs and I’ve drilled bolts. The two things are very different. A bolt can go anywhere and it’s 100% reliable.

[andy moles]

Unless the pegs are replaced. This does actually happen.

I’ve placed pegs and I’ve drilled bolts. The two things are very different. A bolt can go anywhere and it’s 100% reliable.

I've also placed pegs and drilled bolts, so I too fully appreciate the difference!

The fact that a bolt can go anywhere while a peg can't holds no water in this debate for me. It matters if it's a new route and you're the FA with that decision to make, but as a repeater you simply encounter what is there - you are not working with what the rock gives you, you're working with what another person has given you.

The fact that a bolt is 100% reliable is an argument for it for me - as jwi and Will Hunt have pointed out above, the idea that you can make a meaningful judgement about the quality of a peg is to quite a large extent illusory.

If there's going to be fixed gear hammered or drilled into routes, it might as well be durable and sound.

[ali k]

Reply to Fiend: But then you get back to Barrows’ point earlier that this approach is 100% deference to the boldness of the first ascentionist, rather than to the rock itself.

TB: But what I don’t get is why pegs are treated so differently to all other gear. On a lot of these lakes routes I’m sure you could absolutely muller some wires into placements to become in-situ gear and take the E7s down to E5/6 clip-ups.

[andy moles]

TB: But what I don’t get is why pegs are treated so differently to all other gear. On a lot of these lakes routes I’m sure you could absolutely muller some wires into placements to become in-situ gear and take the E7s down to E5/6 clip-ups.

As an aside, this had been done on a route in the Pass that I climbed last year, with the idea that the wire could be more easily replaced. Unfortunately no one climbed it for 15 years so when I tried to remove the badly rusted wire, it snapped at the head leaving the nut irretrievable and blocking the placement.