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Calling Of The Bolt Chopping. (Read 35902 times)

Fiend

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Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 09:05:35 am
BMC North Wales Area Meet Wednesday 19th 7:30pm Beacon Climbing Centre:

https://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=4419&fbclid=IwAR2zsFJ0JMVDtcmc-xUm8Mycm90BwUHfYGBenXFSqFyJCTswYJ1q1Kq7ljA

Two important items on the agenda:

1. Proposal investigating consultation and accountability for the use of drilled peg-bolts on North Wales mountain crags and sea-cliffs (Clogwyn Yr Adar, Castell Cidwm, Carneddau, Rhoscolyn, Gogarth)


2. Proposal investigating consultation, accountability, and North Wales Bolt Fund funding for retro-bolting of established trad routes on The Ormes (including numerous good, safe low-extreme routes)

I would encourage anyone in the area with an interest in British trad climbing and/or with maintaining the previous good, healthy trad/sport mixture on The Ormes to attend and offer your support. If you're only interested in easy sport routes (as most of the retro-bolted trad routes have been turned into), then you don't need to bother as your wishes are already well catered for with the masses of easy sport climbs (non-retro-bolted) in the A55 / Ormes area.


northern yob

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#1 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 09:16:02 am
Ken was right,it is the thin end of the wedge.

It’s a lost cause, quite depressing really.

I bet they get done more often though……

T_B

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#2 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 09:40:28 am
The Yorkshire disease spreads to N Wales.

Can’t believe someone has glued a peg bolt into Citadel.

Sad.

petejh

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#3 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 10:03:33 am
It's been going on for years. Some of the earlier retro-bolting around the NW lime area was sensible as the routes being retro'd often relied heavily on fixed gear or were just not of any real quality in many cases, and it was being done at the time when lower-grade sport on the Ormes was genuinely scarce. It provided a more sensible balance of routes and most people seemed to agree.

Over the last few years the retro-bolting has become less sensible and less balanced imo, as we've moved on from a period when low grade sport crags were scare in north Wales to a time when low grade sport crags are now plentiful but perfectly good and well protected limestone lower grade trad (around E1) is scarce. The bolting of the tram-station crag E1s is ridiculous imo. Also a couple of the St Tudno's E1s. Others make more sense to me. As ever it's a judgement call. 

Fiend has been vocal on the fb pages bemoaning decent little E1s getting bolted and I agree with him - some of these routes were good little trad routes and I fondly remember climbing them as such. I didn't bother replying on fb. Maybe I should have as I don't agree with the actions and attitude of the recent bolting/bolters.

As for the mountain and sea-cliff bolts cleverly and cynically disguised as pegs so that tradsters can pretend they aren't clipping bolts, my views on that are pretty clear - they're bolts. Be honest about that fact and the debate can start from an honest starting point. It people aren't prepared to be honest then I have little respect for their views or their actions.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 10:36:39 am by petejh »

northern yob

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#4 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 10:15:37 am
Is it the usual suspects doing their own thing? Or are they (the peg bolts/bolts) becoming accepted and used by the wider community down there?

Not really sure why I’m asking, my views have been aired on here before, and I’ve pretty much given it up as a lost cause.

petejh

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#5 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 10:21:03 am
My impression is it floats around in the background as one of those things that's just there without too much angst.

To be clear I'm not 100% against the bolts (that look like pegs) on some crags - Clogwyn Adar is a good venue because of them and it would be a lot less good (only my opinion, but I think I'm fairly balanced) without any fixed gear. Craig y Forwyn is a better place to climb because of some of the bolts (that look like pegs). Although imo they've been overdone at CyF.

My issue is honesty. These are bolts, drilled and glued. They aren't pegs. So climbers should be accepting or not accepting of them based on the fact that they're bolts.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 10:27:35 am by petejh »

northern yob

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#6 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 10:42:31 am
My impression is it floats around in the background as one of those things that's just there without too much angst.

To be clear I'm not 100% against the bolts (that look like pegs) on some crags - Clogwyn Adar is a good venue because of them and it would be a lot less good (only my opinion, but I think I'm fairly balanced) without any fixed gear. Craig y Forwyn is a better place to climb because of some of the bolts (that look like pegs). Although imo they've been overdone at CyF.

My issue is honesty. These are bolts, drilled and glued. They aren't pegs. So climbers should be accepting or not accepting of them based on the fact that they're bolts.

I couldn’t agree more! I’m not against bolts, and I don’t know some of the crags well, so I wouldn't comment. My problem is bolts at Gogarth and similar venues, and the precedent it sets for elsewhere….

Unfortunately I don’t believe going round in circles on here is going to achieve anything other than wasting my time.

duncan

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#7 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 10:43:34 am


'Stakes' at the top of Llawder Zawn, Rhoscolyn. Photo taken 31st July 2022, judging by the dust placed very recently.

Johnny Brown

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#8 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 11:07:50 am
Those 'stakes' have now been chopped, I was there last week.

The interesting question is whether they would have appeared had the peg-bolts not been placed first. I suspect not.

Quote
Although imo they've been overdone at CyF.

I think this is the central issue. If you're the type of person to go to a crag armed with custom laser-cut peg bolts, a drill and glue, you're almost certainly going to be more enthusiastic about their existence than the next man.

petejh

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#9 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 11:26:53 am
The top of Llawder will always have fixed gear come and go I think. Has been that way for ever. Before the bolts (that look like pegs) were placed there were pegs there. Before the pegs we used the wall. Using the wall isn't OK - blocks the walker's path and damages the wall. The second most sensible option for belaying at Llawder (the first being stainless fixed gear in a couple of spots) is to leave the right belay gear up there already placed, so you know you have it when you top out. Not as if you have to walk around to the top of the cliff to do that, as you're already there when you arrive.


I think this is the central issue. If you're the type of person to go to a crag armed with custom laser-cut peg bolts, a drill and glue, you're almost certainly going to be more enthusiastic about their existence than the next man.

Or even the next man who's 'only' placing bolts that obviously look like bolts that everyone seeing them will know are bolts.

mark20

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#10 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 12:06:11 pm
There's a debate to be had about routes with lots of fixed gear, like-for-like replacements, bolted belays etc etc.

But reading some of the facebook threads over the summer, it seems like a local guide has been using North Wales Bolt Fund gear to retro-bolt pure trad routes, for the purpose of guiding and making money. It fucking stinks.

petejh

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#11 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 12:25:05 pm
If that's the case then I'm unaware of the details as I don't look at much on fb. Do you have any more info on that? Sales from my and Andy's book (from which we take zero money) is the largest contributor to the NWBF.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 12:30:13 pm by petejh »

mark20

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#12 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 12:52:06 pm
Not sure I want to name and shame publically.

But I think it stands that the NWBF need to publish their guidelines - do they support retro-bolting, and is funding from your book / personal contributions / BMC contributions going to retro bolt established trad routes ?


petejh

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#13 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 01:19:34 pm
No worries.

But I think it stands that the NWBF need to publish their guidelines - do they support retro-bolting, and is funding from your book / personal contributions / BMC contributions going to retro bolt established trad routes ?

I think those are fair questions in light of the recent retro-bolting.

Off topic but slightly ironically; I started my own little scheme this year that I'd wanted to do for ages. I offered to pay people £5 per old rusty redundant bolt removed from the NW limestone sport crags. Paid for by the book money. First crag was LPT, I did a survey with bino's from ground level and counted 47 old bolts for removal up to midway along the cliff.

Some UK sport crags are a mess and have been for as long as I can remember. Comparing to popular euro sport crags it seems to be a trait particular to us British to put up with rusting old bolts and chains littering up the cliffs. New bolts go in during re-equipping but often the old stuff doesn't get removed. I'm guilty, when I did a lot of re-equipping on the NWL crags often I couldn't get rid of the old bolts as the nuts are invariably corroded or spinning as anyone who's done a lot of glue'ing bolts will know you can't do more than one job while glue'ing and you often need the old bolt there to hold you in position while placing the new one. In my defence I did absolutely loads of re-equipping of whole routes/crags and it took months/years. Removing the old stuff would have doubled the job (so I only did half a job :) ).

Anyway, the '£5 per old bolt scheme' paid for the removal of the old rusty bolts across the first half of LPT this summer. At least I'm told they've been removed - haven't been back to check!


Maybe that balances out any of the highly dubious recent retro-bolting that my book's money might have unknowingly contributed towards  :lol:

« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 01:34:07 pm by petejh »

steveri

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#14 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 01:38:02 pm
There's some backgroundy stuff here: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/fixed-gear-on-north-wales-rock-climbs-general-advice-and-guidance
and another 20 pager linked from there. Sounds like there's been some blurring of the lines since then.

There's always nuance though. Lots of handwringing in the North West area to come up with a policy. Discussion on here was useful - https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,32052.25.html - and we eventually got to this - https://www.thebmc.co.uk/fixed-gear-guidance-on-north-west-crags-and-quarries

Something came up at last night's area meeting to blur the brand new policy. It's hard, there's always an edge case.



spidermonkey09

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#15 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 01:50:18 pm
No worries.

But I think it stands that the NWBF need to publish their guidelines - do they support retro-bolting, and is funding from your book / personal contributions / BMC contributions going to retro bolt established trad routes ?

I think those are fair questions in light of the recent retro-bolting.

Off topic but slightly ironically; I started my own little scheme this year that I'd wanted to do for ages. I offered to pay people £5 per old rusty redundant bolt removed from the NW limestone sport crags. Paid for by the book money. First crag was LPT, I did a survey with bino's from ground level and counted 47 old bolts for removal up to midway along the cliff.

Some UK sport crags are a mess and have been for as long as I can remember. Comparing to popular euro sport crags it seems to be a trait particular to us British to put up with rusting old bolts and chains littering up the cliffs. New bolts go in during re-equipping but often the old stuff doesn't get removed. I'm guilty, when I did a lot of re-equipping on the NWL crags often I couldn't get rid of the old bolts as the nuts are invariably corroded or spinning as anyone who's done a lot of glue'ing bolts will know you can't do more than one job while glue'ing and you often need the old bolt there to hold you in position while placing the new one. In my defence I did absolutely loads of re-equipping of whole routes/crags and it took months/years. Removing the old stuff would have doubled the job (so I only did half a job :) ).

Anyway, the '£5 per old bolt scheme' paid for the removal of the old rusty bolts across the first half of LPT this summer. At least I'm told they've been removed - haven't been back to check!


Maybe that balances out any of the highly dubious recent retro-bolting that my book's money might have unknowingly contributed towards  :lol:

Good scheme! Seems particularly important on coastal cliffs to prevent that grim rusty streak that develops below old bolts.

How did you go about holding yourself in position, say, at the Diamond while putting new routes up on steep rock on glue ins? Just holding the holds?! I had a couple of really awkward ones to do at Yew Cogar this year and I was completely wrecked with the effort of it, and that was just 2 bolts on new rock.

Fiend

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#16 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 02:09:02 pm
Pete I'll undercut that scheme charging £2.50 per retro-bolt removed  :2thumbsup:

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#17 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 02:28:06 pm
Pete I'll undercut that scheme charging £2.50 per retro-bolt removed  :2thumbsup:

You'd do it for free, surely? Just for the sheer joy of chopping bolts.

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#18 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 02:29:08 pm

Good scheme! Seems particularly important on coastal cliffs to prevent that grim rusty streak that develops below old bolts.

How did you go about holding yourself in position, say, at the Diamond while putting new routes up on steep rock on glue ins? Just holding the holds?! I had a couple of really awkward ones to do at Yew Cogar this year and I was completely wrecked with the effort of it, and that was just 2 bolts on new rock.

Thanks! It's satisfying to be able to do 'good' stuff with the book money.

Bolting is just physically hard, no getting around it. When there's no old bolt to hold in on then options are, in order of what I do most often to least often:

1. Hold the holds. Bolting really developed my finger strength and my toe-hooking muscles!
2. Find runners and skyhook placements. You don't need a bomber to hold you in enough for bolting, they often pop half way through but doesn't matter as you're on an ab rope.
3 + 4. Place a temporary petzl couer pulse in the 12mm hole above the bolt to be drilled. This works fine for drilling and placing expansions. But when placing glue-in's it only works for drilling the hole, not placing the bolt, as you cant weight the glued bolt as the glue won't have set.
3 + 4. Use a sacrificial little 8mmx50mm mild steel bolt (60-80p from hardware shop). A 10mm bolt hanger can be held on well enough by the nut and washer so that you can use it to hold you in position. Once finished knock it flush with the rock, becomes virtually invisible.
5. Use a tensioned line. Did this once in the top of Gideon quarry on a 50m overhanging DT route - my mate tensioned a 4mm steel wire down the crag to hold us in while bolting. Was very faffy and not worth the effort. Didn't even go back to climb the route as it doesn't really climb well. Big white elephant (is what I'd call it if ever climbed).
6. Get a helper to pull you in. Doesn't usually work very well and who wants to go to the crag to do this.


On really steep crags/caves the above can be negate by bolting upwards. It's easier to bolt upwards on steep ground, by leapfrogging 12mm temporary bolts with 12mm expansion bolts. But you're still left with the same problem if using glue-ins. Multiple visits often required on steep crags if using glue-ins.



petejh

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#19 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 02:31:19 pm
Pete I'll undercut that scheme charging £2.50 per retro-bolt removed  :2thumbsup:

You'd do it for free, surely? Just for the sheer joy of chopping bolts.
Yeah this ^. Busman's holiday for you Matt.

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#20 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 03:02:28 pm

Good scheme! Seems particularly important on coastal cliffs to prevent that grim rusty streak that develops below old bolts.

How did you go about holding yourself in position, say, at the Diamond while putting new routes up on steep rock on glue ins? Just holding the holds?! I had a couple of really awkward ones to do at Yew Cogar this year and I was completely wrecked with the effort of it, and that was just 2 bolts on new rock.

Thanks! It's satisfying to be able to do 'good' stuff with the book money.

Bolting is just physically hard, no getting around it. When there's no old bolt to hold in on then options are, in order of what I do most often to least often:

1. Hold the holds. Bolting really developed my finger strength and my toe-hooking muscles!
2. Find runners and skyhook placements. You don't need a bomber to hold you in enough for bolting, they often pop half way through but doesn't matter as you're on an ab rope.
3 + 4. Place a temporary petzl couer pulse in the 12mm hole above the bolt to be drilled. This works fine for drilling and placing expansions. But when placing glue-in's it only works for drilling the hole, not placing the bolt, as you cant weight the glued bolt as the glue won't have set.
3 + 4. Use a sacrificial little 8mmx50mm mild steel bolt (60-80p from hardware shop). A 10mm bolt hanger can be held on well enough by the nut and washer so that you can use it to hold you in position. Once finished knock it flush with the rock, becomes virtually invisible.
5. Use a tensioned line. Did this once in the top of Gideon quarry on a 50m overhanging DT route - my mate tensioned a 4mm steel wire down the crag to hold us in while bolting. Was very faffy and not worth the effort. Didn't even go back to climb the route as it doesn't really climb well. Big white elephant (is what I'd call it if ever climbed).
6. Get a helper to pull you in. Doesn't usually work very well and who wants to go to the crag to do this.


On really steep crags/caves the above can be negate by bolting upwards. It's easier to bolt upwards on steep ground, by leapfrogging 12mm temporary bolts with 12mm expansion bolts. But you're still left with the same problem if using glue-ins. Multiple visits often required on steep crags if using glue-ins.

You can also drill a small 7mm hole then use a bog standard plastic rawlplug and screw-in eye bolt. Wind it in with a krab.
Easily removable afterwards. Obviously not weight bearing, but it will keep the rope in place no problem.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-zinc-plated-screw-eyes-6ga-x-30mm-10-pack/17358

mrjonathanr

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#21 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 04:25:48 pm
Pete I'll undercut that scheme charging £2.50 per retro-bolt removed  :2thumbsup:

You'd do it for free, surely? Just for the sheer joy of chopping bolts.
Yeah this ^. Busman's holiday for you Matt.

More reasonable to ask him to pay to remove them, imo

Fiend

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#22 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 18, 2022, 05:09:16 pm
Pete I'll undercut that scheme charging £2.50 per retro-bolt removed  :2thumbsup:

You'd do it for free, surely? Just for the sheer joy of chopping bolts.
Dammit, rumbled!!  :ninja:

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#23 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 19, 2022, 07:33:56 am
Thanks for the heads-up Fiend, I've shared the reminder on to the North Wales Easy Sport Group, who have been rumbling about their wishes not being adequately catered for. I think there should be a pretty good turnout  :P

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#24 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 19, 2022, 08:37:46 am
Oh the hilarity. I agree their wishes should be taken into account, and it should be ensured that there are at least as many F6a-bs on North Wales Limestone / Microgranodiorite as there are E1-2s, and any retro-bolt-chopping should cease before that 50/50 split.

 

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