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Calling Of The Bolt Chopping. (Read 35903 times)

ali k

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#50 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 04:27:38 pm
I'm willing to compromise where one or two bolts (where there were once pegs) make the difference between an otherwise excellent trad route and a total chopfest. It seems a shame to 'lose' such routes just to serve an abstract principle.

I know what you mean, but in my experience these examples are very few and far between so I'd be willing to compromise the other way and say it'd be worth 'losing' the odd route or two to save the principle behind it. The only place I have any real direct experience of this is in Pembroke where for a time I was repeating a lot of stuff, of which some of the E6/7/8s hadn't been done for years, if not a decade or more. I can't think of many (any?) routes where the grade drastically increased by not clipping the old rotten fixed gear, and certainly not to the point where they became an unjustifiable chop route. On the other hand I could, if I'd wanted, gone and bought a load of shiny new pegs and hammered them in all over to turn a lot of these routes into clip-ups (until in another decade the pegs are all rotting again). To me, the latter option just seems selfish, short-sighted, and unfair on people coming behind you.

Malham was just an example that sprung to mind. Of the crags you mention I've only climbed at Tunnel Wall, but that seemed similar in that the sport part of the crag (single pitch) seemed quite distinct from the trad (mostly multi-pitch) so easy to keep separate and outside of that grey area?

abarro81

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#51 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 05:14:21 pm
I agree with basically everything Ali has said.

I also find it weird that people argue you "lose" a route if it gets too dangerous so you need to bolt it, especially when we live in a country where some of the most idolised trad routes are chop routes on dubious sounding rock (Indian Face anyone)...

T_B

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#52 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 05:36:45 pm
It’s interesting that this is happening in N Wales when I get the sense there’s a bit of push back against the tide of retro-ing on Yorkshire lime (eg 3 pegs removed from Exponential Exhaustion at Kilnsey and Wise Blood still getting done (I always predicted it would get retroed)).

In the Peak there’s a definite scene of young tradsters doing E6s and E7s and the easy sport is confined to the quarries. A few more bolts going in at Chee Tor and High Tor but those putting them in are ‘reasonable people’. I don’t see Castellan having its pegs replaced with bolts and if it does I will chop them (it doesn’t need fixed gear at all).

But I don’t know what we do about lots of the other routes? Yorkshire and Peak lime is destined to have sport/trad coexisting. Stoney is a weird one. I mean stick clipping the new bolt on Kingdom Come probably wasn’t my proudest ‘trad climbing’ moment!

Pembroke is black and white as far as I’m concerned as there’s no whack and dangle history. Just get rid of the pegs. Most of the E6s and above are getting headpointed anyway (I’ve no issue with that).

Sorry, bit of a ramble ..

shark

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#53 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 05:37:38 pm
A judicious bolt or even wholesale retro bolt can revitalise a route (such as White Gold which was a former clip up on situ gear) and a case by case basis is I think a good approach but can be used as an excuse/precedent for other retroing that is less justifiable.

There is a structure in place to sound out opinions on specific routes in the BMC Area Meetings. There was an E3 route in Dovedale (The Umpire) that had become overgrown and probably unclimbed for 15+ years that had been retroed and the person who did discussed it a meeting. No one at the meeting could get that worked up about it being retroed including me and Neil F who had done it as a trad route BITD.

Trad routes at the Upper Circle in WCJ have become neglected and overgrown along with the paths to them which weakens the case with DWT if you wanted to revitalise them either as trad or sport routes.

OTOH there are classic trad routes that should remain that way. Personally I didn’t think it was right that Countdown, Northeners Cant Climb and Millers Tale got retroed. It would have been good to have an open discussion on it.

Bit of a ramble from me too..

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#54 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 05:44:00 pm
Thanks for the apology Pete. We can agree to disagree on whether there is any merit to the reasoning that: 1. Neglect is used as a reason for retro-bolting. 2 Neglect is due to a lack of popularity. 3. Popularity depends on perceived route quality. 4. Perceived route quality is related to how a guidebook describes a route. Suffice to say that this is not the most important aspect of the situation for me - the reasoning may fall down in 3 or 4, but 1 is where the problems start happening.

One thing that was confirmed in the Area Meet was exactly your hobby horse (said in the best spirit), that these drilled and glued bolts are indeed drilled and glued bolts. Even if they have been drilled into old peg placements or in very similar places to old peg placements. Which leads to the question:

Is replacing a peg with a drilled and glued bolt acceptable at the venues in which it is occurring??

Which in part hinges on another question:

Is it important in British trad climbing that pegs should be treated with caution and assessed by a leader, or should pegs or their replacements be guaranteed to be 100% reliable on all venues??

I think these questions should be discussed further, and also the North Wales Fixed Guidelines should probably be referred to.


On the subject of hybrid routes and mixed crags:

Quote
I would also say that Malham is far from the only crag where sport and trad coexist without controversy. A lot of the best Scottish sport crags (Dumby, Tunnel Wall, Upper Cave, Goat Crag) are also good examples.

One could also add: Most of Lakes Slate, a lot of Welsh Slate, High Tor Right Wing, Uphill Quarry, Cheddar Gorge, Cheesewring Quarry, Anstey's Cove, and theoretically a lot more Yorkshire limestone before it all started getting retro-bolted too.

And of course, Pen Trwyn and The Ormes. I disagree with Ali's preference for completely separate sport/trad crags, in fact one of the aspect I really like* (liked?) about the area is (was) the blend of trad and sport sitting side by side on the same crag. Warming up on some sport to get the blood flowing, clipping a few wires onto the harness and swapping to double ropes, doing a couple of great 1 star trad routes, swapping back to the single and gri-gri if one had got a bit scared or fancied a bit of harder cranking. A genuinely enjoyable blend of styles for me, and one I thought worked very well and is worth defending.

(* along with the rock quality, general route quality compared to Pennine lime, roadside access, lower-offs, peculiar resort town atmosphere, the view around the far end of Marine Drive, bemused tourists, etc etc)


Finally for now:

the person who did discussed it a meeting.

....

It would have been good to have an open discussion on it.
A novel idea. I wish it would catch on. Along with broader public consultation / discussion.



andy moles

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#55 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 06:02:37 pm
I also find it weird that people argue you "lose" a route if it gets too dangerous so you need to bolt it, especially when we live in a country where some of the most idolised trad routes are chop routes on dubious sounding rock (Indian Face anyone)...

I did put 'lose' in scare quotes for a reason. It is a slightly different situation on something like Indian Face, which was always a chop route, from routes which rely on crucial pegs for protection, i.e. what was once an attractive ground-up possibility becomes unjustifiable. I get that it doesn't have to be seen that way - you can say that the route's past status is not important. I do swither a bit on this personally - sometimes I agree with Ali that it would be simpler to draw bright lines to preserve the principle, but then I think - but why?

abarro81

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#56 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 07:09:00 pm
For me, trying to preserve a trad route in an artificial state just doesn't make sense... if a wire placement breaks would you bash a bolt in? Presumably not. If a thread breaks would you put a bolt in? Presumably not. Surely a big part of the point of trad is taking the rock as you find it?

andy moles

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#57 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 07:43:59 pm
Yeah but historically there have always been compromises. Putting chockstones in cracks, taking them out again, cleaning with picks and crowbars, bashing in pegs and wooden wedges. Yanking on nuts that don't quite sit until they do. Which is not to say that we shouldn't aim for a cleaner ethos, but 'traditional' climbing has never been a pristine cathedral. If we want to make it so perhaps we should call it something else...pure climbing? "I only climb Pure, man."

abarro81

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#58 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 07:50:46 pm
Yeah, but why would the goal be to preserve the dodgy parts? It seems perverse, certainly an unhealthy deference to the FA IMO

andy moles

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#59 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 07:56:52 pm
I don't think the goal is to preserve dodgy parts, or to defer to the FA (definitely not in my mind anyway), but to allow a few case-specific compromises for totally un-historical reasons such as: that's a fucking cool bit of rock but there's an unprotected section that means you'll hit the ground from the crux at 20m.

abarro81

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#60 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 08:03:55 pm
I don't think the goal is to preserve dodgy parts, or to defer to the FA (definitely not in my mind anyway), but to allow a few case-specific compromises for totally un-historical reasons such as: that's a fucking cool bit of rock but there's an unprotected section that means you'll hit the ground from the crux at 20m.

It's 100% deference to the FA and their peg placement. Unless you're also advocating this for other routes that might be considered "better" with a bolt but where it's not replacing a peg?

andy moles

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#61 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 08:43:00 pm

It's 100% deference to the FA and their peg placement. Unless you're also advocating this for other routes that might be considered "better" with a bolt but where it's not replacing a peg?

It is not '100% deference' to look with fresh eyes and see the same logic that someone else did, especially if a route has gained value within the culture as a certain kind of challenge.

To your second point, I personally wouldn't be dead-set against that if there was mass consensus for it (which isn't likely).


ali k

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#62 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 09:01:40 pm
routes which rely on crucial pegs for protection, i.e. what was once an attractive ground-up possibility becomes unjustifiable.
To me this is an argument for getting rid of pegs and other in-situ gear altogether on trad routes. For onsighting / ground-upping at your limit it’s fucking dangerous to rely on dubious fixed gear. And when standards improve harder routes should become onsight/GU propositions for the next gen. At least it’s an honest fight if you’re putting all your own kit in.

andy moles

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#63 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 09:16:04 pm
routes which rely on crucial pegs for protection, i.e. what was once an attractive ground-up possibility becomes unjustifiable.
To me this is an argument for getting rid of pegs and other in-situ gear altogether on trad routes. For onsighting / ground-upping at your limit it’s fucking dangerous to rely on dubious fixed gear. And when standards improve harder routes should become onsight/GU propositions for the next gen. At least it’s an honest fight if you’re putting all your own kit in.

I'm not remotely up for dubious fixed gear either, if there's fixed gear it should be good (i.e. bolts).

And yeah, I accept the legitimacy of leaving these dangerous things pure and clean for the bold and talented. I'm also just not offended if some of them are kept at or brought to a level that more people will enjoy them.

spidermonkey09

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#64 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 21, 2022, 09:32:07 pm
Good discussion. I wouldn't have a problem with the approach Ali advocates either, although I think it would mothball a lot of routes. Agree discussion is the key and sounds like a step forward has been made calling a spade a spade in Wales, or indeed a bolt a bolt!

Duncan campbell

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#65 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 22, 2022, 09:37:58 am
Interesting debate.

Having been pro peg-bolts previously, I am coming round to Ali K, Northern Yob etc’s point of view.

It does seem that the peg bolts are becoming more and more prevalent and where I would say some are somewhat logical this is being deviated from. (Citadel being the obvious example)

Maybe it’s a shame for odd routes to become a bit spicy for a larger majority of people to have a crack on from the ground but as maybe that’s the price we have to pay to protect the brand of trad climbing we have in this country?

I also agree with Ali that getting rid of all rotting fixed gear would be a good start, at least you know what you’re getting into.

I think the main problem could be is that the people who are putting these things in aren’t that bothered about what the consensus thinks as they haven’t asked for it so far.

andy moles

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#66 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 22, 2022, 10:32:36 am
I think the main problem could be is that the people who are putting these things in aren’t that bothered about what the consensus thinks as they haven’t asked for it so far.

This is certainly the case. I suppose they might argue that 'consensus' has justified them in many cases, as people have voted with their feet and the routes have seen a boom in popularity. Clogwyn yr Adar for example was on very few people's radar, now it's very popular.

Obviously this is a crap way of establishing consensus, but I think the crux of the whole debate is how to implement a better one that is widely respected.

mark20

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#67 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 22, 2022, 10:39:47 am
With regard to the Ali K point of 'either trad or sport crags', at which arbitary point in time do you draw the line? Most sport crags started out as trad/aid and eventually became sport crags. eg Lorry Park Quarry in the Peak has some of the purest limestone cracks in the Peak, and was a trad venue. Sport climbers climbed the blanker walls between the cracks, with bolts. Then the whole lot got bolted. So do we say this is now a sport venue? Or do we go back to it being a trad only venue and strip the lot?
It should be perfectly possible that we can come to the sensible compromise- that well protected pure cracks stay as trad and the walls between are decent sport routes.

Duncan campbell

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#68 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 23, 2022, 12:14:47 am
Yeah this is a valid point- pretty mental that supercrack is bolted when it would be one of the best E4/5s on peak lime if not.,, this probably plays into northern yob’s argument about the thin end of the wedge

shark

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#69 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 23, 2022, 12:43:38 am
Supercrack was completely neglected as a trad route and got dirty IIRC. These things need traffic or regular recleaning.

Fiend

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#70 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 23, 2022, 10:11:33 am
For onsighting / ground-upping at your limit it’s fucking dangerous to rely on dubious fixed gear.
Isn't that just part of the judgement call and skillset of the trad leader?? Knowing that non-bolt in-situ gear might not be reliable (quite often indicated in the guide) and making a decision and ascent attempt (or not!!) based on that?? Plus even dubious fixed gear gives you the possible option to lower-off it at least. Sure it's all a murky grey area but that's British trad climbing...

Clogwyn yr Adar for example was on very few people's radar, now it's very popular.
It was very much on my radar, I'd just not got round to it yet. Part of the popularity could be due to the nice new guide, good topo, sensible grade reassessment, and appropriate and inspiring star reassessment, as well as bolting. I think there could be a fair and justified increase in popularity without the latter. When I went I didn't know the bolts were drilled and glued, they looked like new pegs in slots and seams (which are plentiful) and I took them as normal new pegs - not 100% reliable but looked adequate especially next to the tricky moves.

Supercrack was completely neglected as a trad route and got dirty IIRC. These things need traffic or regular recleaning.
I've always wanted to do Supercrack as a sport route. At the grade I'm sure I'd stand a good chance of a satisfying onsight in a normal uninjured year and have a great time on it. As a trad route of that ilk (E5 6b, "gear is good if you're strong enough to hang around and place it" :sick:) I'd stand almost no chance and would either never get around to it, or one day give it a try, get pumped and fail miserably and sulk my way home.

I fully support it being de-bolted and returned to being a classic trad route.

mark20

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#71 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 23, 2022, 10:37:10 am
Supercrack was completely neglected as a trad route and got dirty IIRC. These things need traffic or regular recleaning.
I don't believe that lack of traffic is a good justification for bolting trad routes.

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#72 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 23, 2022, 11:07:50 am
A judicious bolt or even wholesale retro bolt can revitalise a route (such as White Gold which was a former clip up on situ gear) and a case by case basis is I think a good approach but can be used as an excuse/precedent for other retroing that is less justifiable.

There is a structure in place to sound out opinions on specific routes in the BMC Area Meetings. There was an E3 route in Dovedale (The Umpire) that had become overgrown and probably unclimbed for 15+ years that had been retroed and the person who did discussed it a meeting. No one at the meeting could get that worked up about it being retroed including me and Neil F who had done it as a trad route BITD.

Trad routes at the Upper Circle in WCJ have become neglected and overgrown along with the paths to them which weakens the case with DWT if you wanted to revitalise them either as trad or sport routes.

OTOH there are classic trad routes that should remain that way. Personally I didn’t think it was right that Countdown, Northeners Cant Climb and Millers Tale got retroed. It would have been good to have an open discussion on it.

Bit of a ramble from me too..

Millers Tale wasn't retroed. The bolt was placed to back up the Peg and Andy B was asked beforehand.
Kingdom Come had a bolt in the past protecting the crux. The 2 stacked pegs you stick clipped were completely corroded through (I have them at home) with them gone the I doubt anyone would be launching up the start...

I agree there needs to be more consultation before these decisions are taken. That said been plenty of trad routes on Peak lime been cleaned up in the last few years.


andy moles

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#73 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 23, 2022, 11:13:43 am
It was very much on my radar, I'd just not got round to it yet. Part of the popularity could be due to the nice new guide, good topo, sensible grade reassessment, and appropriate and inspiring star reassessment, as well as bolting. I think there could be a fair and justified increase in popularity without the latter. When I went I didn't know the bolts were drilled and glued, they looked like new pegs in slots and seams (which are plentiful) and I took them as normal new pegs - not 100% reliable but looked adequate especially next to the tricky moves.

Fair point about Adar's resurgence in popularity being partly down to the new guidebook, but I don't think Blood Bank would be getting a fraction the number of ascents if it had no fixed gear. Whether the pegs are drilled and glued or not (I'm actually not certain in this case, I didn't look closely?) is kind of beside the point with regard to popularity because like you say, they're new and they look convincing (and there's more than one).

Anyway Blood Bank is a good case in point for the debate about pure trad vs. trad with the odd bit of fixed gear. Distinct crux section around 8-10m which doesn't appear to offer any convincing leader-placeable protection (maybe there's something in the little overlap?) making the difference between a serious and unbalanced E5 and a cruxy but safe E3/4.

andy moles

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#74 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
October 23, 2022, 11:16:56 am
I don't believe that lack of traffic is a good justification for bolting trad routes.

Taken on its own I would strongly agree, but I think it's reasonable to consider it as a factor among other considerations.

 

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