[north_country_boy]

Did whoever took them out strip Evolution, Mutation, the toilet and the stuff on the left? The Evolution ones are always the first I notice.

P.S. Dan, I hope you weren't affected by any laziness and took your draws out at the end of every day when you were on Unjustified? (I'll feel like an idiot if you now tell me you did, but there were certainly a bunch of someone's in for a while on the bit after the 7b around that time.)

If I did leave any in they were only ever on the top wall and were there over night on a Saturday, until I returned on a Sunday morning. I think this occurred once. Otherwise they will have been Paul's or Sam's. They certainly weren't 'insitu' and certainly didn't have maillons.

Most people from time to time will leave draws in if they are intending on visiting again soon, I am no exception, and essentially it is born from convenience (lazy if you want to be cynical).

As I said, most are guilty from time to time.

However, the Mecca draws, like Ecstasy at Kilnsey are very much 'Insitu'.

[benpritch]

http://twitpic.com/5t3wdu

The draw that came out of mecca

[Three Nine]

Did whoever took them out strip Evolution, Mutation, the toilet and the stuff on the left? The Evolution ones are always the first I notice.

You ought to really, Ben. We can't have the Tor as a museum to laziness!

[El Mocho]

We were planning to take the Evolution ones out too but didn't get around to it - they are very obvious from the road - but as we were at the tor to go free climbing not aid climbing and I had to be back for school pick up there was no time. Hopefully the mecca de-equiping will encourage others to remove some of the other insitue draws (maybe even the people whose draws they are?)

[benpritch]

We were planning to take the Evolution ones out too but didn't get around to it - they are very obvious from the road - but as we were at the tor to go free climbing not aid climbing and I had to be back for school pick up there was no time. Hopefully the mecca de-equiping will encourage others to remove some of the other insitue draws (maybe even the people whose draws they are?)

especially after ru's post;

I don't know about the access at other crags, but I do know that Raven Tor is owned by the National Trust and they regularly inspect the crag. I also know, having asked them during one such visit, that they neither understand nor like fixed gear and when asked which fixed gear they were referring to it was the situ draws on Mecca. They'd noticed other odds and sods, but the person I spoke to acknowledged that the bolts and odd crab were difficult to see unless you were looking for them.

[Baron]

Nice one Ben and Ben

[Robbo]

What a crock of shit.

I have no real opinion re fixed gear one way or another, but there is a right and a wrong way to go about stuff.

Taking the draws out of Mecca, belonging to someone else, who you haven't spoken too first and leaving them at the crag for anyone to walk off with is totally out of order.

Firstly they could have been nicked.

Secondly, when Joe turned up to the crag to climb on Thursday evening, they had gone! Fortunately he had spotted the fact they had been removed on this thread and took extra draws just incase they had been nicked. Good job really, otherwise his drive out to the Torr would have been a waste of petrol.

Not only that, he didn't have a draw the right length for the 3rd clip (the critical draw which he went to the trouble of pointing out on this thread prior to them being removed) so had to bastardise the draws he had, without much success, meaning clipping was more difficult than it should have been.

Common courtesy would have been to find out who they belong to prior to going and removing them. Perhaps then asking said person to remove them when they next climbed would have been the reasonable thing to do. Keeping in mind, he climbs there 3 days a week, I'm sure leaving them for 48hrs wouldn't of offended too many purists. Being as though there's been in situ gear in Mecca for years.

Failing that, telling Joe, the draws were going to be removed in a week, giving him ample to time to get them himself, would have been the next best thing.

Or if you really felt that compelled to take them out there and then, holding on to them and getting them back to the rightful owner, would have been reasonable.

That's what I think anyway.

Anyway, must dash, there's a car badly parked on my street. I'm just going to put the window through, hotwire it and leave it out of sight for the owner to collect when they go out next.

[reeve]

Anyway, must dash, there's a car badly parked on my street. I'm just going to put the window through, hotwire it and leave it out of sight for the owner to collect when they go out next.

Gosh, go steady there. That's a bit different really and I don't think that's relevant or helpful.

Firstly they could have been nicked.

Unlikely:

They are right in the back under the start of the route, well out of sight until you get up to the start of Mecca.
...
ps Joe - hope the biners + slings get back to you ok - felt it someone might be more upset to find the draws had been taken off somewhere when they got to the crag rather than stashed at the bottom...

I was with Shark when he collected the draws, they were well out of sight (Simon needed me to help him find them!). And Joe has them back.
You have a point that maybe some effort could have been made to ask Joe to take them himself, which would have avoided him from having to improvise when he was at the crag, as you point out. I think a bit more tolerance for people acting without the benefit of hindsight / being perfect would help.

If the 'draws in evolution belong to anyone reading, take them out in the next week before I do 

[Robbo]

The point I'm simply trying to make, in a very long winded rant, is that there's been gear in it for years. The mecca kit was new, therefore obviously recently replaced. A quick ask around at the crag would have I.D'd the owner. This in my opinion would have been a more reasonable way of doing things.
Just for the record Joe isn't remotely bothered. I just felt it was a bit off side 

[account_inactive]

The point I'm simply trying to make, in a very long winded rant, is that there's been gear in it for years. The mecca kit was new, therefore obviously recently replaced. A quick ask around at the crag would have I.D'd the owner. This in my opinion would have been a more reasonable way of doing things.
Just for the record Joe isn't remotely bothered. I just felt it was a bit off side

I was under the impression that the draws were donated by DMM and kindly put in my Joe.

[Robbo]

Presumably whoever removed them didn't know who they belonged too, as they had made no effort to find out.

Regardless whether he paid for them or not, it still potentially left him drawless for a session, having driven out there.

[clm]

Presumably whoever removed them didn't know who they belonged too, as they had made no effort to find out.

Regardless whether he paid for them or not, it still potentially left him drawless for a session, having driven out there.

Crikey! a bit of inconvenience versus potential access problems at the tor? 

[Robbo]

Well all the draws in all the other routes don't seem to affected access rights since last Thursday. I'm sure it could have waited 48hrs.

I'm all for taking in situ gear out. That's not the point I was making.

[dave]

Ben&Ben you fucking inconsiderate wankers, next time you have the nerve to remove an eyesore from the crag just fucking remember to giftwrap the draws and fedex them back to the generous benefactor along with a bouquet of lilys and a box of Terry's All Gold by way of an apology. I don't know how you people sleep at night.

[lagerstarfish]

I have enjoyed this thread very much. Thanks all.

Given that it is sometimes hard for me to spot the footholds on limestone because of naturally visually disruptive colours of the rock, I was wondering if some limestone-camo coloured draws might be a little less damaging to crag access. I did think about draw socks made out of shades-of-grey DPM lycra to cover the tape, but realised that these might slip off when grabbed.

Lagerstarfish Lazy-Draws will be available in the shops before the start of next season.

other ethically interesting products will also be in the range

[lagerstarfish]

here we go

urban camo gaffer tape

[shark]

I have been pondering this thread this week as I've formerly spoken in favour of situ draws because they are so convenient and even left a couple in high up on the Prow before. I realise I was wrong.

As I was at the tor this morning and at a loose end I stripped the various draws from the wall right of Mecca as they are the most visually obvious ones at the crag as has been noted above. I didn't know whose they were when I took them out but was told who they belonged to afterwards so will endevour to contact them directly to return them. Having only recently held the view that in-situ or perma draws are OK I can well imagine how pissed off they'll be when I get in touch.

The reasons I did it are that perma-draws are a growing trend and at a showcase crag like Raven Tor on one of its top routes it is not only unsightly but also sets a bad example and a bad precedent for the practice to grow and get taken for granted which would be problematic at other crags which have more sensitive access issues. That aside if it is generally felt that crags look better without draws then it is plain selfish to them in.

Ben Pritch has taken out the situ-draws on Mecca, Reeve has taken the more obvious ones out of Prow pitch2 and in addition I took out a couple very old ones to the right of Pitch 1 of the Prow (Whore of Babylon?). There is a lot of other stuff still left in. It will be telling if they are removed by whoever they belong to or third parties.

[Percy B]

The thing I don't understand is why modern sport climbers are so considerate. Back in the day you didn't leave draws in routes because they got nicked - simple as that. Many a 90's sport climbers rack of draws consisted of more than a few in-situ beauties squawked from foreign crags.
Exhibit 1, your Honour, is my timeless classic of a beautiful Petzl Spirit draw with a nice long sew sling (60cm's as I recall) covered in sponsors logos - 're-appropriated' after Francois Legrand left it somewhere he shouldn't. The punter.
The days when climbers were a little bit naughty seem long gone - now its all about protein recovery drinks, stretching, heart rate monitors and clean living.

Oh - that's why I go bouldering.

[lagerstarfish]

that's why I go bouldering.

yeah, I find it easier to pinch stuff that people leave on the ground too

[Robbo]

What about having a "Perma Gear Amnesty Box" at every crag? This would in itself be "in-situ", so may open a whole new can of worms. Surely worth some consideration though 

[benpritch]

i'd just like to point out that whilst my post about taking the draws out of mecca might have appeared blunt and indicated a less than considerate attitude to joe's clips, el mocho, myself and one other had quite a long discussion about the relative merits of various courses of action that would mean that the owner (at that point unknown) would get their equipment back. (which they did by the way)

now it seems to me that, apart from joe being slightly inconvenienced, our actions have resulted in raven tor being de equipped which i very much doubt would have happened had we 'asked around'.

they've been there for years and no-one has done anything. well we were there and one of us was motivated enough to remove them so they got removed.

with respect to whether we should have waited - this is obviously debatable but as it happens all of our time is limited (either by work or childcare) so it would have been another month before i get back there and at least a couple of weeks until el m gets bacjk there so this would have delayed matters by who knows how long? forever maybe? maybe by the time we got back to the tor every route would have been equipped.

and maybe this was the week that the national trust turned up and banned us? we'll never know about that one but at least it is no longer a possibility.

[TobyD]

I have been pondering this thread this week as I've formerly spoken in favour of situ draws because they are so convenient and even left a couple in high up on the Prow before. I realise I was wrong.

I am thinking along similar lines, i think. However, if they are not visually obvious what is your opinion on leaving them?
Lets say, if you know a route and are working it, and you still have to squint pretty hard to see whether they are still up there. IF there are no known access issues surrounding fixed gear, i can't see why they shouldn't be left in this case, on a route where it potentially makes a difference to say, how many goes you'd get on it in a day.
It seems as though, in the case of the tor, that the potential for access problems overrides any considerations of convenience, as you say.

[shark]

I have been pondering this thread this week as I've formerly spoken in favour of situ draws because they are so convenient and even left a couple in high up on the Prow before. I realise I was wrong.

I am thinking along similar lines, i think. However, if they are not visually obvious what is your opinion on leaving them?

Although they are less of an issue ideally still best taken out on the basis they are a bad example / precedent. The occasional single biner or mailon is more than adequate for stripping routes.

What about having a "Perma Gear Amnesty Box" at every crag? This would in itself be "in-situ", so may open a whole new can of worms. Surely worth some consideration though 

Joking apart I think as a rule of thumb a better solution would be to leave removed draws in the belays if the owners are unknown as it tidies the route up and makes the point.   

and maybe this was the week that the national trust turned up and banned us? we'll never know about that one but at least it is no longer a possibility.

   

Worth considering what you would do if they get put back in. One climber yesterday said he intended to do so on the basis that they have been there for years. Whether he does so is a different matter.

I'm glad to report that the owners of the draws on Evolution etc have been really cool about it   

[chummer]

 I think Shark hit the nail on the head about insitu draws on routes such as Mecca setting a bad precedent and hence encouraging a bit of a trend and acceptability. I bet The Tor looks much better now, good work all!


I've heard that Franklin character is going down to Pembroke soon, hopefully he'll leave his poxy dyneema draws insitu in The Leap thus causing yet another stir that this time results in all those unsightly threads being chopped..

[Stevie]

Let me have a think about the best way to ruffle some feathers. I had may as well go the whole hog and piss off some surfers whilst we're down there too!