[north_country_boy]

(I stripped the old draws from Mandela last year, which were then tested to destruction at Wild Country, I suspect that if anyone saw what the seemingly new looking (been up there 2years?) Dyneeema and Nylon tapes broke at they would think again before ever clipping an insitu draw.....)

... any specific info on this?

At what force did they break?

One of the Petzl Sport tapes, probably the newest one up there, broke at about 1/4 of its rated strength from what I remember

[Adam Lincoln]

(I stripped the old draws from Mandela last year, which were then tested to destruction at Wild Country, I suspect that if anyone saw what the seemingly new looking (been up there 2years?) Dyneeema and Nylon tapes broke at they would think again before ever clipping an insitu draw.....)

I assume the tapes failed before the crabs? What kn did they go at out of interest.

[slackline]

P.S. - Shouldn't this be in the get involved: access, environment, BMC sub-forum?

[Adam Lincoln]

Messed up quotes, hope you still got that last post Dan.

[north_country_boy]

Messed up quotes, hope you still got that last post Dan.

See previous post. Not sure what they are rated at? Some of the crabs were unbelievable, a few winters of freeze and thaw, bright morning sunlight and constant wetness is not good. Hence my earlier comment regarding Ecstacy.

[Adam Lincoln]

Messed up quotes, hope you still got that last post Dan.

See previous post. Not sure what they are rated at? Some of the crabs were unbelievable, a few winters of freeze and thaw, bright morning sunlight and constant wetness is not good. Hence my earlier comment regarding Ecstacy.

A tape will be about 22kn rated.  As i am sure you know, the rating will be way over what is actually needed. Maybe Adam Long will be along to share his knowledge on the matter. Adam?

[benpritch]

dear arborro, three nine and anyone else who thinks these two are right

as far as i can see this isn't really about whether we personally like draws in routes or not.

this is mainly about whether leaving draws in routes will lead to access issues in the future.

in my opinion we have strong evidence that it is an issue at nearly every crag in the uk.

whether we like draws in routes or not is pretty much irrelevant.

scenario a; we leave draws in routes we lose access

scenario b; we take them home along with everything else, we continue to climb at these rocks.

making value judgements about what constitutes the biggest eyesore a tunnel or a quickdraw is a load of bollocks as is having the opinion that quickdraws are prettier than single biners. this is pure subjectivity and blatantly an esoteric opinion that will be worth precisely fuck all when somebody (not you because you are blatantly too selfish to get involved in anything remotely useful to the wider climbing community) has to spend months negotiating access that we lost because you really really like leaving the clips in.


take your clips home or no more climbing

[fatdoc]

Perma-draws were not deemed necessary on these routes 5-10 years ago. What's changed?
I've done a fair number of the routes mentioned at Kilnsey and don't recall putting the draws in or the removal at the end of the session being a game changer in any way. It's just laziness. Ok it makes flashing/onsighting harder - tough, that's how it alway has been, it is not sufficient justification for the practice.
TBH the issue didn't bother me when it was the odd route here and there but it now sounds like things are getting silly and we are as well outlawing the practice BEFORE we have access problems, rather than waiting for them to happen.
The point of having single biners on routes is to leave the minimum kit insitu to allow routes to be safely and practically stripped. They are the much lesser of two evils. It is beyond me how anyone can say that one krab is more of an eyesore than 10-20 krabs attached to brightly coloured fabric and dangling in space! Yes some, such as the green one on Snatch are unsightly and I agree ought to go.
From a selfish climber point of view it's worth considering that ultimately if we push the perma-draw thing to the point where we are forced to negotiate access on sensitive crags, then we might be put in a position where we have to do without these single biners, which would actually be a major ballache.

bang on mate.

[abarro81]

I don't know why you're quite so angry at me Ben.

I only started arguing at the start of this thread because Dave said we shouldn't be leaving draws in routes anywhere. I disagree with this, I don't see how it causes issues at a lot of crags that I've spent a lot of time climbing at. Maybe I was being retarded reading "anywhere" as "anywhere" rather than "anywhere in the UK", but I hope you'll forgive me that stupidity as I've only just got back from 9 months in Spain and France, so when I think sport climbing I think of Santa Linya as much as I think of the tor. I suspect leaving draws in is unlikely to cause access issues at the likes of Ceuse or Montsant, say. Or LPT/WCJ cornice if you want a UK example. I probably should have been less aggressive in my post though: sorry for calling your view retarded Dave. Though for the record I still think that the view that we shouldn't leave draws in anywhere is retarded.

My giving a list of reasons for leaving them in was because someone asked why you'd want to leave them in, not an attempt to justify leaving them in down the likes of Chee Dale.

Thanks for dissing my opinion that a line of draws is prettier than a single biner, but I still find a line of draws prettier, especially if they're matching. Maybe it's my autistic side that likes a line of them rather than a single one, but I really do think it looks nicer. If it's a minority view that's fine, just thought I'd point out that some (or at least one) find the single biners which do seem to be acceptable just as ugly as equipped routes. (Just to clarify: are the single biners acceptable at the cornice, or should I be taking them out if I do one of the routes with one on?)

[slackline]

Thanks for dissing my opinion that a line of draws is prettier than a single biner, but I still find a line of draws prettier, especially if they're matching. Maybe it's my autistic side that likes a line of them rather than a single one, but I really do think it looks nicer. If it's a minority view that's fine, just thought I'd point out that some (or at least one) find the single biners which do seem to be acceptable just as ugly as equipped routes. (Just to clarify: are the single biners acceptable at the cornice, or should I be taking them out if I do one of the routes with one on?)

Regardless, that is still a climbers view which is not what causes access problems, because its non-climbers who find the presence of single karabiners and/or a line of draws to be obtrusive.  So single karabiners should be removed as readily as draws.

Taking such reasoning to its logical conclusion would obviously mean that there shouldn't be any bolts to clip in the first place, but clearly thats undesirable to a the climbing community, so.....

...a compromise might be that bolts are permissible as they tend to be small and of similar colour/shade to the rock unless the sun is shining on them and the person observing is at the right angle to catch the glint, but draws should not be left in as they tend to be coloured and stand out far more, particularly so to non-climbers who might not have the eye to spot a line of bolts.

I don't project/work routes, but most of the sports routes have pretty easy access compared to walking in to say winter climbs or mountain/sea-cliff crags, so to my mind those using the "convenience" argument are just plain lazy (if its awkward to clip-stick a route then perhaps the placement of bolts was off in the first place?).

[Paul B]

A tape will be about 22kn rated.  As i am sure you know, the rating will be way over what is actually needed. Maybe Adam Long will be along to share his knowledge on the matter. Adam?

If you read the statistical testing methodology that DMM use to come up with their ratings (sigma 3 or something like that) it'll be evident that the 'rating' will be well below what its actually capable of holding straight out of the factory thus breaking at 4 times less than 'rated' will likely be a much more consierable drop in strength than it appears. Not particularly good news for anything not looking at its best!

[robertostallioni]

Destruction tested a 'draw of mine on the mobile DMM rig a couple of months ago.

Sling (Petzl 8 years old) looks as new, originally rated 22KN. went at 14KN. 1KN loss per year.......(never been left on route)

DMM shield krab, bolt end, rated at 24KN went at 29.6KN. 8 years old and still much stronger than rated.

Will be replacing slings first, I reckon.

[Johnny Brown]

What Paul said. The 3 sigma thing means the rated strength is 3 standard deviations below the average (mean) strength, ie that 99.9% (I think?) of a sample will break at more than the rated which is in effect a minimum strength. Though I'm not sure manufacturers' sample sizes are always big enough to justify the statistics...

As a very broad rule of thumb, I'd say you're unlikely to break climbing gear unless its strength drops below 10kN. Webbing is generally the fastest to deteriorate in use, as the construction means all fibres get exposed to the surface at some point. You can halve the strength of a sling in about 3 seconds just with the sandpaper on a matchbox.

For sport climbing, in-situ draws are always likely to be the weakest link in your safety chain. I know Mawson broke one recently in Europe. I wouldn't say its a strong argument to ban them, but it might present more of a problem where only the odd route has perma-draws and no one is really sure who is responsible for them.

Presumably at fully equipped crags in Europe some individual or club is responsible for checking them as with the bolts. The only such crag I've been to (in Italy) was so maintained by an individual who'd also taken the kind step of drilling every handhold and sikaing every foothold, mostly to suit his frame as closely as possible. I might be generalising a bit here, but the moral I took from there was that allowing perma-draws is a slippery slope that first creates a 'climbing wall atmosphere', which in turn inevitably becomes a licence for wholesale chipping.

[slackline]

ie that 99.9% (I think?) of a sample will break at more than the rated which is in effect a minimum strength.

As good as 3σ == 99.7300204% of a normal distribution.

[El Mocho]

ie that 99.9% (I think?) of a sample will break at more than the rated which is in effect a minimum strength.

As good as 3σ == 99.7300204% of a normal distribution.

correct although in the case of climbing equipment you are not worried about the % that is not included in the 3 standard deviations and is at the top end of the distribution graph as these will be the extra strong ones... so looking at what is included and is above (mean - 3 st deviations) you get something like 99.98...%

I seem to remember that in practice the 3 sigma stuff is done using a T distribution (or something) rather than a standard distribution as this takes into account the sample size used (rather than snapping every biner!)

The variation on snapped (new) biners from DMM is normally pretty small so in reality biners will (generally) be stronger than rated but not by that much. From using the mobile test rig for DMM for a few years I have not had many biners (even old ones people have brought in) snap at less than rated, as Adam says slings are often the weak point, particually if rubbed across their width with some sandpaper (worse than a part cut with a knife) which makes them a lot weaker - potentially very similar to a permadraw continually rubbing back and forth over the rock! **

**This is not an official DMM view, and I could be completely wrong. All my statistics were done at uni so could easily be complete bollocks.

[Percy B]

Isn't just a fashion thing? Loads of British sport climbers travel to super steep, super long sport crags in France and Spain where it is a logistical nightmare to strip your route at the end of every day you spend on it, so the locals draws get left in until they're done.

Its been a good few months since I tied on to a rope, but I feel I've done enough sport climbing in the past to have an opinion..... I can't think of many 70+metre wildly overhanging sport pitches in the UK that would warrant leaving draws in-situ. In fact, I can't think of many routes in the UK of any size, difficulty, steepness or style that really need the draws leaving in. I can see Ste Mac's rationale for leaving a few in his super-routes at Malham whilst he's on with working them, but surely leaving draws in most other routes is just laziness, or people thinking that because it happens in Catalunya, its alright to do it down the dale.... As somebody already mentioned, draws left in routes on a large scale in the UK is a relatively new deal, isn't it? Yet we have now have clever stick clippy things so even if you can't bolt to bolt your chosen route, you can still get your draws in and a top-rope on the thing.

Thinking about it, it probably is a laziness issue, when you look at crags in the States with proper chain perma-draws - these are the people you invented the drive-thru cash point, after all.....

[TobyD]

i these are the people you invented the drive-thru cash point, after all.....

... and the drive thru liquor sto'....

[Davo]

I just haven't seen that it endangers access at Kilnsey...If it did then I would have a problem with draws left in place there

I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.

Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.

Rodma: As I have said many times in I my posts I am only looking for one concrete reason that leaving draws in on North Buttress endangers access and then I am willing to change my opinion. Perhaps instead of describing how unhealthy my opinion is, you shoud come up with a concrete reason that it causes a problem at Kilnsey!

I assume from your post that you climb regularly at Kilnsey and are aware of current access issues concerning draws left in at North Buttress...

As I have said above I understand that at crags where the landowner/manager has stated that they don't like draws being left in then, obviously we should strip the draws as otherwise this would endanger access...

Dave

[Ru]

I don't know about the access at other crags, but I do know that Raven Tor is owned by the National Trust and they regularly inspect the crag. I also know, having asked them during one such visit, that they neither understand nor like fixed gear and when asked which fixed gear they were referring to it was the situ draws on Mecca. They'd noticed other odds and sods, but the person I spoke to acknowledged that the bolts and odd crab were difficult to see unless you were looking for them.

[chummer]

I just haven't seen that it endangers access at Kilnsey...If it did then I would have a problem with draws left in place there

I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.

Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.

Rodma: As I have said many times in I my posts I am only looking for one concrete reason that leaving draws in on North Buttress endangers access and then I am willing to change my opinion. Perhaps instead of describing how unhealthy my opinion is, you shoud come up with a concrete reason that it causes a problem at Kilnsey!

I assume from your post that you climb regularly at Kilnsey and are aware of current access issues concerning draws left in at North Buttress...

As I have said above I understand that at crags where the landowner/manager has stated that they don't like draws being left in then, obviously we should strip the draws as otherwise this would endanger access...

Dave

Davo, sorry if this is getting a little tit for tat but perhaps you should come up with a concrete reason why you or anyone else need to leave your draws in Kilsney when it seems obvious the default ethic has always been to strip routes. We've got bolts, clip sticks and lower offs, shirely that's convenient enough?
It seems to me that if there's an issue with parking by climbers this could easily overspill into other issues like crag 'litter' left by climbers; basically we should all be doing whatever we can not to draw any more attention to any potentially negative impact we as climbers may have.

It's completely behavioral, and it seems from this thread and from what I've seen myself to be endemic to the Peak and Yorkshire. You lazy cunts.

[Three Nine]

dear arborro, three nine and anyone else who thinks these two are right

as far as i can see this isn't really about whether we personally like draws in routes or not.

this is mainly about whether leaving draws in routes will lead to access issues in the future.

in my opinion we have strong evidence that it is an issue at nearly every crag in the uk.

whether we like draws in routes or not is pretty much irrelevant.

scenario a; we leave draws in routes we lose access

scenario b; we take them home along with everything else, we continue to climb at these rocks.

making value judgements about what constitutes the biggest eyesore a tunnel or a quickdraw is a load of bollocks as is having the opinion that quickdraws are prettier than single biners. this is pure subjectivity and blatantly an esoteric opinion that will be worth precisely fuck all when somebody (not you because you are blatantly too selfish to get involved in anything remotely useful to the wider climbing community) has to spend months negotiating access that we lost because you really really like leaving the clips in.


take your clips home or no more climbing

holy crap is there sand in your vagina?

[Lund]

Just catching up on this debate as I've been away from ukb.  Tying on for the first time in two years actually.

I actually don't have a strong opinion really as I'm a confirmed boulderer trying to broaden his horizons.  Access has to be the overriding factor really though.  Whether you think the balance is right between balancing our views against people who watch birds for a laugh or not, it's the most important thing pragmatically.

What I do have an opinion on is this karma bollocks.  Just reading through the debate... and looking at what's happened to those people flying in the face of the popular opinion... my my they do get an ass raping.  Can we please stop puntering people because they disagree with you, and stick to puntering them if they are a true wanker?

[TobyD]

Whether you think the balance is right between balancing our views against people who watch birds for a laugh or not, it's the most important thing pragmatically.

 

Indeed. I don't in any way think it is wrong or unethical in a climbing sense to leave clips in, BUT if they are going to offend / annoy anyone else, then clearly, there is no justiifable arguement for leaving them. If we all play nicely I'm sure we can all enjoy national parks etc, whether you want to climb rocks, take / paint  pictures of them or look at birds.

[saltbeef]

the situ draws on Mecca.

these all seem to have been replaced, interestingly there is a new biner on the 3rd (4th) but the old shonky tape! weird! do we really need these? (I do for my aid climbing, but I wouldn't be upset if they were taken out)

[Three Nine]

and looking at what's happened to those people flying in the face of the popular opinion... my my they do get an ass raping.

some of us do enjoy a good ass raping