[Jeff25]

After taking a dump halfway through a set of repeaters* i noticed some marginal improvement on next set performance. This got me thinking , could this be just down to a positive belief ('im lighter') or can shedding 600g** make that much difference?

If so this got me thinking about how much weight I can (and should) lose. Anyone on here noticed a point where overall climbing starts to deteriorate after too much weight loss. Im by no means skinny (14% body fat according to my scales?) but have single digit body fat as my target for when im next going to be trying a redpoint project. too ambitious?

Apologies for the UKCish thread but any experiences of weight loss for climbing - limits, - or best methods (eg. crash course or slow and steady) then id be interested.

* Dumps only take me two minutes
** I weighed myself before and after, rather than weighing the log directly.

[Paul B]

I think after Jerry's book dieting came back into fashion and it works.

The could lose/ should lose argument is a difficult one. There's no question that as a short term strategy dropping weight is the quick route to relative gains in fingers strength etc. Whether or not its a good thing to do I'm not sure? (Stu wrote a good post regarding this and potential for some people being steered in a negative direction)

I was thinking the Lincoln's and Doyle's of this world would be horrendously crippled with heavily damaged metabolisms by now but seemingly not.

(I've heard of similar abuse of laxatives and diaretics (sp?) by tor wads from back in the day, is that coming back in vogue as well?)

[Bubba]

Over the years I've known quite a few climbers with borderline/definite eating disorders. It's not a good look, please be careful.

Personally I now subscribe to the Prescott school of eating disorder

[Adam Lincoln]

I was thinking the Lincoln's and Doyle's of this world would be horrendously crippled with heavily damaged metabolisms by now but seemingly not.

 

I just don't eat crap when trying to get in shape for routes. No reason for my metabolism to be crippled. I don't go on the salad and green tea diet like Doyle. Just cut out all the chocolate and late night carb feasting.

[nik at work]

And you eat no fat flapjack, which is technically a crime in most counties of Northern England (probably)...

[Paul B]

apologies then adam, I thought you were both on horrendous Stevie Haston style calorie deficits.

[Serpico]

apologies then adam, I thought you were both on horrendous Stevie Haston style calorie deficits.

Kebab boy Lincoln is definitely no Haston when it comes to the calorie count.

[Adam Lincoln]

apologies then adam, I thought you were both on horrendous Stevie Haston style calorie deficits.

Kebab boy Lincoln is definitely no Haston when it comes to the calorie count.

  See.

[Sloper]

Any half way respectable medic advising on diet and sport would absolutely condemn the use of laxatives, diuretics etc as a means of weight loss.

The simple facts will suffice; x calories in and more out.  A good balanced diet with lots of fresh fruit, good high quality protein and carbs is the best training diet bar none.  Why pay a fortune for awful forms of chemical protein when you can have a nice steak etc.

Alcohol would probably not be part of the mix. 

[Adam Lincoln]

Why pay a fortune for awful forms of chemical protein when you can have a nice steak etc.

Because on leaving the crag/wall, it isn't always practical to get a nice steak down your neck.

[Sloper]

Why pay a fortune for awful forms of chemical protein when you can have a nice steak etc.

Because on leaving the crag/wall, it isn't always practical to get a nice steak down your neck.

A weak excuse if you pardon the expression, a thick cut cold beef sandwich with ripe tomato, some red onion and mustard would do the trick and can be prepared before hand etc

The big sell of the supplement industry is almost as big a lie as homeopathy (well homeopathy at 10 - 10)

[Yossarian]

Why pay a fortune for awful forms of chemical protein when you can have a nice steak etc.

Because on leaving the crag/wall, it isn't always practical to get a nice steak down your neck.

Sloper usually has a tasty coq prepared for such eventualities...

[Paul B]

I'd disagree slopes, I've already had this kind of discussion with Houdini and even he backed down. The quantity of red meat you have to eat to get the equivalent dosage of creatine (which has actual science behind it not de-clusrerisation ACCAPI pseudo science), is HUUUGGGEEE, even you couldn't manage it.

[Sloper]

It's been a number of years since I looked at the evidence but as I recall, when analysed with control for training the results weren't significant.  The long term health affects are as I understand it, unknown but had some significant risk factors eg massive increase in excretion http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1327657 also http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html

for 99.9% of climbers a good balanced diet, low alcohol intake and plenty of aerobic exercise is the best base for training.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but would need substantive and substantial evidence.

[Paul B]

This is UKB I'll give you neither and just repeat; you're wrong. I'm sure Dylog or someone else more clued up on sports S.C.I.E.N.C.E will turn up soon.

[Sloper]

Like I said, my knowledge base on this isn't complete and I'm happy to be proven wrong.

But my contention that for 99.9% of climbers a good diet and exercise regime without supplements is the best way forward.

Hugo has now demanded attention so must go.

Regards

[JamesD]

It's been a number of years since I looked at the evidence but as I recall, when analysed with control for training the results weren't significant.  The long term health affects are as I understand it, unknown but had some significant risk factors eg massive increase in excretion http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1327657 also http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html

for 99.9% of climbers a good balanced diet, low alcohol intake and plenty of aerobic exercise is the best base for training.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but would need substantive and substantial evidence.

Next thing you are going to tell me that I just need to climb, weightlifting is pointless and does nothing for overall power output, supplements don't work, creatine is a myth, plyometrics are a northern energy supplier.........

etc etc.

I guess we should all just stick to steak and steroids because those are medically proven to work ja?

[Paul B]

Back on topic:

I just checked out a picture of myself from when I consider myself as strong as I've ever been (~50kg), I'm a lot skinnier than I am now (~54-56kg), thats not saying I'm less lean (because I'm not). It really is all down to weight.

JamesD - you're f*cked 

Haven't we already seen the start of this realisation? I (and I'm sure some others on here) must have been at that sheffield based comp where the young girl was ill looking, rumours of an eating disorder were free flowing that day.

[Jeff25]

Personally I now subscribe to the Prescott school of eating disorder

yep Bulimia is always a winner. only time i tried this was at the Spanish French border when the Peseta was going to Euros. Ate six magnums then was revisted pretty quickly afterwards...

Im not going down the route of any of the above - thanks for the concern. More thinking about what a reasonable body fat % is to aim for and whether people (like Paul above) had better performances when at different weights.

[Sloper]

It's been a number of years since I looked at the evidence but as I recall, when analysed with control for training the results weren't significant.  The long term health affects are as I understand it, unknown but had some significant risk factors eg massive increase in excretion http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1327657 also http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html

for 99.9% of climbers a good balanced diet, low alcohol intake and plenty of aerobic exercise is the best base for training.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but would need substantive and substantial evidence.

Next thing you are going to tell me that I just need to climb, weightlifting is pointless and does nothing for overall power output, supplements don't work, creatine is a myth, plyometrics are a northern energy supplier.........

etc etc.

I guess we should all just stick to steak and steroids because those are medically proven to work ja?

No weight lifting isn't pointless, the amount of fat is and trust me I have a long, witnessed empirical evidence base to support this statement.

At my most powerful I was heavier than (84kg vs 80kg) I am now but I was only 6%  (I don't know what i am now but it's not 6%) body fat and seriously aerobically fit with a PB of 38 m 19 s for 10k on a flatish course.  Weight is a function of many things, body type being particularly important. 

My point is simply this, for most people the gains from supplements can be achieved if not significantly surpassed by better training and a better overall diet.

The increasing societal fixation with body image and weight is worrying and dangerous and when combined with a desire to 'improve' performance more so.

Let's face it we are all, in the grand scheme of things punters and losers and to risk long term health for an ephemeral and meaningless number is just not worth it.  Dieting and training are consequently for losers.

Anyway, moving further from the topic anyone for a discussion of the philospohy of grades from a classical marxist perspective?

[shark]

These articles generally back what Sloper says:

http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Weight_Management_for_Climbers_168.html
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Nutrition_for_Bouldering_169.html
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Nutrition_Supplements_For_Climbers_303.html

[Paul B]

I'm not arguing with the fact that Supplements should be used to 'supplement' a good diet. They're far from useless.

Think of things like green tea. To drink enough green tea to get noticeable metabolic gains you need about 7-8 cups a day. Or half a tablet...

[shark]

Paul,

Lets start with the evidence based facts first before getting complicated.

Let me use an example:

Evidence based fact: It took two years for Malc to progress from 7c+ to 8c+
Hearsay: It took a season.   

 

[Paul B]

whatever you say mighty insect overlord:



green tea, cayenne pepper, raspberry ketones etc. all have proven influences on your metabolism, do I have to go digging, I don't want to have to go back to the myprotein forums, I don't like it over there.  :'(

[shark]

Nice - I'm having that