[a dense loner]

sloper you're just wrong. i can't really believe its 2010 and people are still saying eat steak and have a good diet. everybody i have ever met climbs better when they're lighter, its not rocket science.

[galpinos]

Sloper, are you one of these guys from family guy?



Your nutrition advice sounds rather like their "Steak and Eggs" song.

[BB]

2 rump steaks from Sainsburys = £6
1 months supply of protein supplement = £35 (assuming you go for the most expensive)

I've never won a nobel prize in maths but I'm pretty sure that the steak route works out more expensive.

[webbo]

At my most powerful I was heavier than (84kg vs 80kg) I am now but I was only 6%  (I don't know what i am now but it's not 6%) body fat and seriously aerobically fit with a PB of 38 m 19 s for 10k on a flatish course.  Weight is a function of many things, body type being particularly important.

and how does that prove you were seriously aerobically fit all it proves is you had a low body fat count and you ran 10ks slower than your average club runner.

[JamesD]

It's been a number of years since I looked at the evidence but as I recall, when analysed with control for training the results weren't significant.  The long term health affects are as I understand it, unknown but had some significant risk factors eg massive increase in excretion http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1327657 also http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html

for 99.9% of climbers a good balanced diet, low alcohol intake and plenty of aerobic exercise is the best base for training.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but would need substantive and substantial evidence.

Next thing you are going to tell me that I just need to climb, weightlifting is pointless and does nothing for overall power output, supplements don't work, creatine is a myth, plyometrics are a northern energy supplier.........

etc etc.

I guess we should all just stick to steak and steroids because those are medically proven to work ja?

No weight lifting isn't pointless, the amount of fat is and trust me I have a long, witnessed empirical evidence base to support this statement.

At my most powerful I was heavier than (84kg vs 80kg) I am now but I was only 6%  (I don't know what i am now but it's not 6%) body fat and seriously aerobically fit with a PB of 38 m 19 s for 10k on a flatish course.  Weight is a function of many things, body type being particularly important. 

My point is simply this, for most people the gains from supplements can be achieved if not significantly surpassed by better training and a better overall diet.

The increasing societal fixation with body image and weight is worrying and dangerous and when combined with a desire to 'improve' performance more so.

Let's face it we are all, in the grand scheme of things punters and losers and to risk long term health for an ephemeral and meaningless number is just not worth it.  Dieting and training are consequently for losers.

Anyway, moving further from the topic anyone for a discussion of the philospohy of grades from a classical marxist perspective?

All well and good, what do you consider powerful though?
Power to weight ratio maybe?
If only 1% of athletes were actually benefitting from supplements, then I am pretty sure even some of the really old school powerlifters that I used to train with wouldn't be bothering with supplements, the issue as always is that some people forget that supplements are meant to "supplement" your training and are not a substiture for the essentials, such as good diet/rest/training etc.....

At my most powerful I was 112kg, I went from a very skinny 89kg, and just about being able to walk again (yes that is me looking skinny before all the jokes come!), to being able to deadlift 200kg, stick 300kg on the decline leg-press for a few reps, squat 160kg, and bench 120kg.
I did this with the help of an effective supplement regime, and the correct timing alongside intense training and an excellent diet.
Creatine for instance makes a huge difference when you are pushing the limits of your anaerobic capabilities,  yes its not a magic pill for everyone, but it is a highly effective supplement. I had my supplement regime so dialled in after a few months, giving me such good gains, that my dad who is a pretty well into his exercise (and has been far fitter in his lifetime then I could hope to be at present), actually asked me if I was on the juice!

There are also lots of crappy, overpriced, and frankly useless supplements out there, but if you know what you are doing with it all, you can make excellent gains in your training regime from incorporating the right supplements.

My favourites below:

Creatine:

CEE or Magnesium Creatine chelate

EAA:

I like controlled labs purple wraath drink, because it has a couple of other excellent ingredients as well, and if you combine it with a magnesium creatine drink you get all the electrolytes you need too

Rhodiola Rhosea:

Taken in conjunction with creatine, helps your body deal with increased levels of physical/mental stress better, also improves ATP regeneration as a result of this, which is highly complimentary to creatine supplementation

My Protein Sleepmax:

Excellent if you need a night of good quality sleep and have been struggling to get it recently!

Protein drinks are fine if you struggle to get enough in your diet during the day, but the only time I ever bothered to use them was post workout to get protein into my system fast, the rest of the day you should be eating as many food sources as possible, also skimmed milk is perfectly acceptable as a post workout drink if you don't fancy spending out on powders, however I still prefer the powder as it means you are not ingesting shitloads of lactose, and can control the amount of carbs in your PWO drink as you please.

[richdraws]

Unfortunately 200 kg deadlift at 112kg makes you strong overall but not in a strength to weight scenario.

The thing people miss out of this equation is momentum. A lighter climber can afford to climb with more momentum as their weight x momentum doesn't come close to the forces generated by a heavier climber with momentum. A heavier climber would need to climb much more statically (Nicole springs to mind) to reduce the effects of momentum. Even on a campus board the heavier climber would have to lock the lower hold whereas a lighter climber could kip/flick a lot more which reduces the need for locking.

So being light allows you more room to slap for a hold. 

[lagerstarfish]

A lighter climber can afford to climb with more momentum as their weight x momentum doesn't come close to the forces generated by a heavier climber with momentum. A heavier climber would need to climb much more statically (Nicole springs to mind) to reduce the effects of momentum.

eh?

Please explain using Newton's laws. Am I being more thick than usual?

[chris_j_s]

I went from a very skinny 89kg, and just about being able to walk again (yes that is me looking skinny before all the jokes come

Not joking at all but just wondering what your idea of skinny is? 89 kg is just over 14 stone so unless your super, super tall, that doesn't count as skinny in my book. Don't take that as a scathing remark, I'm just interested.

FWIW I'm 5'11" and 61kg. I might be able to lose the odd kilo more without it becoming unhealthy but there is definitely potential for it to adversely affect my performance.

On the thread topic I trained strength over this winter at about 64/65kg and have got down to 61kg over the last 5/6 weeks whilst working power endurance. From a small handful of outdoor sessions this year I definitely feel my climbing has taken a leap forward since last october but its hard to know how much of that is down to the weight and how much is down to the fact that I've trained quite hard over the winter.

[JamesD]

Unfortunately 200 kg deadlift at 112kg makes you strong overall but not in a strength to weight scenario.

The thing people miss out of this equation is momentum. A lighter climber can afford to climb with more momentum as their weight x momentum doesn't come close to the forces generated by a heavier climber with momentum. A heavier climber would need to climb much more statically (Nicole springs to mind) to reduce the effects of momentum. Even on a campus board the heavier climber would have to lock the lower hold whereas a lighter climber could kip/flick a lot more which reduces the need for locking.

So being light allows you more room to slap for a hold.

Oh i'm no where near that now, i'm around 99-100kg at the moment (i've put on weight recently I was a little lighter), I was purely using it as an example regarding supplement use to give a grounding for my experience.

The only lifts that really give a true idea of your power to weight ratio are things like the snatch, clean and jerk etc, I had to give these up at the gym i'm at now because they don't allow it (damage to the floor, plus they don't have the proper weight discs for it) but to give you an idea, at my best I snatched around 80kg, pretty shit in the grand scheme of things for my body weight, but explosive strength, and good techinque in these lifts take a lot longer to develop than static strength.
I agree with you, I think momentum is extremely important, after chatting to lots of the guys who are much better than me at the local wall, and watching them tackle problems, I was amazed at how efficient they were, using small swings and combining several moves into one fluid motion, which avoided wasting so much energy, I have tried to employ this wherever possible in my own bouldering. Thankfully despite not necessarily having the upper body power of some people, I am still able to generate a lot of power with my legs, which helps me push through moves where I can get a decent foothold, however I am aware that my arms (mostly my fingers really) have a lot of catching up to do in this respect, and I am training my weaknesses accordingly Regardless I think my strong back/stomach has helped massively with smearing and moves that require a lot of body tension; and when my life stops conspiring against me to stop me training as often as I want to, I plan to experiment with more plyometric style exercises, and conditoning to help develop my explosive power, as I believe it to be extremely useful for climbing from what I have seen, alongside good technique etc of course.
Little by little I am getting there, and upping my cardio to drop some more weight is now on the cards also, as I think improving my power to weight ratio, and dropping as much fat as possible can't do anything but help eh

[JamesD]

I went from a very skinny 89kg, and just about being able to walk again (yes that is me looking skinny before all the jokes come

Not joking at all but just wondering what your idea of skinny is? 89 kg is just over 14 stone so unless your super, super tall, that doesn't count as skinny in my book. Don't take that as a scathing remark, I'm just interested.

FWIW I'm 5'11" and 61kg. I might be able to lose the odd kilo more without it becoming unhealthy but there is definitely potential for it to adversely affect my performance.

On the thread topic I trained strength over this winter at about 64/65kg and have got down to 61kg over the last 5/6 weeks whilst working power endurance. From a small handful of outdoor sessions this year I definitely feel my climbing has taken a leap forward since last october but its hard to know how much of that is down to the weight and how much is down to the fact that I've trained quite hard over the winter.

I am around 6 ft 2 and of a pretty big build

[The Sausage]

I think a problem climbers encounter, compared with other sportspeople, is that they try to train and perform at the same time, and all year round. My feeling is that if you want to gain muscle mass, and therefore strength, you need to eat a lot of carbs and protein, as you will only build muscle if you are in a positive calorific balance. Setting periods aside where you train strength, eat A LOT, use supplements, and don't worry about how well you climb is essential for actual strength gains.

Most other sportsfolk train for specific events/periods, and don't try to perform maximally during these periods. Obviously with weather this can be a risky strategy in climbing, but I think breaking your year into alternating 3 month blocks of training and performance can really help with improvement.

[Jaspersharpe]

Wise words there.

[Sloper]

Webbo, I'm 5'7" and at around 13.5 to 14 stone a sub 39 minute 10k is pretty good if you ask me.  Notwithstanding injuries I'd probably be hard pressed to do one in 49 minutes now.

Power to weight ratio is of course dependent on weight, only a retard would think otherwise so if you lose weight and maintain the same amount of power then your p : w ratio will of course increase.

With stupid starvation diets however your muscles become weaker, your stamina is ruined and you get injured more easily and take more time to recover.

Training for climbing is still in its infancy, compare for example the decades of science used to support the training regimes of top gymnasts, do you see weasel thin chaps on the rings, bars or pommel?  Do you fuck.

If you're starving yourself you're going to be doing damage to your long term health and probably limiting your potential to achieve your goals.

As I have said before 90% of climbers can improve their climbing with some / better training and or more epxerience and better technique without resorting to dieting.

Some may need to look at their diet and cut out, ahem, alcohol and coffee, some may need to increase their protein intake but virtually no one with a good balanced healthy diet will ever need these supplements.

Believe what you want, whether it's accapi, homeopathy or protein shakes but why ignore common sense. 

[shark]

Obviously with weather this can be a risky strategy in climbing, but I think breaking your year into alternating 3 month blocks of training and performance can really help with improvement.

Sport climbing diary

Dec/Jan/Feb     Brrr..too cold/wet: Train like your hair's on fire
Mar/Apr/May    Good conditions: Crush
Jun/Jul/Aug      Too warm/humid: Train like your hair's on fire
Sept/Oct/Nov   Good conditions: Crush

...and repeat for 30 years

[abarro81]

When I'm late for lectures in the morning and putting stuff in my bag for going to the wall afterwards I'm far more likely to throw some protein in a shaker than have time/inclination to make a nice sandwhich or tuna-pasta salad. Plus I wont then decide to eat the powder as a snack when I get hungry in the lecture so it's got much more chance of making it to the wall with me. I don't think most people using protein do so because they think it's better than anything else, its just easier.

I think the Sausage might be on the money.

[BB]

Some may need to look at their diet and cut out, ahem, alcohol and coffee,

I accept that drink is not good for training, but why is coffee bad?

[richdraws]

I did art at school lagers give me a break. I am sure to use all the wrong words and make a right mess of it.

If a boulderer who weighs 50kg drops from rung 3 to rung 1 he would create a much bigger force than 50 kg - (lets presume he picks up enough to speed to double his bodyweight)if anyone can do the maths and tell me how much force he would have to overcome - he would be falling for 0.3 sec and gravity would act on him at 10metres per second per second.

So the 50kg boulder has to overcome an additional 50 kg.

If a boulderer who weighs 100kg drops from rung 3 to rung 1 the force would be 200kg (in simple richdraws land)
he has to overcome an additional 100kg.

The heavier boulderer has to limit the amount of momentum picked up by subtly smearing his beer belly against the back wall. Or else he has to be massively stronger in the fingers than a lighter climber.

Strength to weight is not equal - its far more impressive for a 100kg lifter to overhead press 300kg than it is for a 50kg lifter to overhead press 150kg.

I am sure that doesn't answer owt though. Sorry.

[Sloper]

Some may need to look at their diet and cut out, ahem, alcohol and coffee,

I accept that drink is not good for training, but why is coffee bad?

From memory caffine slows / prevents the uptake and metabloism of protein and some other stuff.

[BB]

Some may need to look at their diet and cut out, ahem, alcohol and coffee,

I accept that drink is not good for training, but why is coffee bad?

From memory caffine slows / prevents the uptake and metabloism of protein and some other stuff.

NNFN!! Say it aint so. I could do without lovely brown booze, but then life-giving coffee is, well...life-giving.

[webbo]

sorry sloper but a 39min 10k doesn't cut the mustard.most competant runners look to run 6min miles or less.which is around 371/2 mins.
also doesn't caffine aid endurance performance or have they banned excess use just to stop people shoving stuff up their arses.

[lagerstarfish]

The smart caffeine users don't take it regularly; only as a performance enhancer before (3 hours) they need to... um, perform. It has very measurable results used this way (takes a week or two to detox from regular use first).

[JamesD]

The smart caffeine users don't take it regularly; only as a performance enhancer before (3 hours) they need to... um, perform. It has very measurable results used this way (takes a week or two to detox from regular use first).

If consumed daily, it can also increases cortisol levels (which increases your chance of joint inflammation), decrease serotonin levels when coming down, deplete adrenal glands and ATP stores, slow down recovery from exericse and dehydrate your muscle tissue (being a diuretic).....I know all of this and yet still I persist to drink this shit.

Must give up

Must give up

Must give up


Besides if you want a really awesome stimulant stack, everyone knows its all about the choline/caffeine/ALCAR/Rhodiola Rosea homebrew shizzle....chew some nicotine gum shortly afterwards, and fly up those problems, literally

[Sloper]

sorry sloper but a 39min 10k doesn't cut the mustard.most competant runners look to run 6min miles or less.which is around 371/2 mins.
also doesn't caffine aid endurance performance or have they banned excess use just to stop people shoving stuff up their arses.

Webbo, when did I claim to be a decent runner?

I am actually very proud of my PB because I put a fucking load of effort and training in to achieve it.   The fact that I was aerobically fit eg able to exercise at 70 - 75% of VO2Max for 2 hours has fuck all to do with my time for a 10k.

It's a bit like saying because you're 5'10 and 12 stone you're shit if you can't climb F8b+

So what if some puny fucking little stick insect can run 32 minutes for a 10k.

[Jaspersharpe]

Besides if you want a really awesome stimulant stack, everyone knows its all about the choline/caffeine/ALCAR/Rhodiola Rosea homebrew shizzle....chew some nicotine gum shortly afterwards, and fly up those problems, literally

Ha. A double espresso or two gets me to the fine line of flying up the problem / being too jittery to climb!

[nik at work]

I don't take supplements but I don't have a problem with people doing so if they want.
However I do find it slightly curious that people are so bothered about the minutiae of training for what is just a silly hobby that they are willing to neck concoctions that apparently all taste varying degrees of grim in preference to just eating food like everybody else for a 5% increase in re-uptake of gluco-smuco-smegma-mega-amine beta 7 (or whatever) and yet will still drink/smoke etc. Them's the weird ones...