[whispering nic]

Percy...Er yes but if you've just ripped of someone elses scale then why bother giving it a new name - like calling 'celcius' 'higginbotham' cos it sounds more british, n'est-ce pas?
The grade under debate is kind of where 'the pack' is at and possibly this is why the jump from v8 to v9 feels big. People wot study skill aquisition refer to learning curves where skill/level/strength acquisition becomes more difficult the further up the scale you go. could there be an element of this here? do you catch wot i'm saying?

[Bubba]

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of the bad press the B grade has received has been down to it's inconsistency in the Peak guide where grades vary wildly and are often too soft-touch compared to their supposed equivalents on the Font scale.

There's also the Northumberland B grades which I don't know much about but which don't seem to bear much resemblance to the Peak system.

[jonP]

You're taking this too personally.

Did you imagine that such a cheap shot would win you this argument?

One of your arguments for V8+ is that the V8 grade is too wide.  I'm sure you've said in the past that friends of yours who've bouldered in America a lot have found this.  I posted on boldering.com to see if this really is a problem.  It certainly wasn't a cheap shot, and the results demonstrate that the "V8 is too wide" argument doesn't stand up.

Your blinkered, knee-jerk refusal ...

My refusal to accept V8+ is neither of these things - in fact it's very well considered.  Here's why I object to it (copied from Rocktalk) - perhaps you could answer these points rather than insult me:

1. Using "+" only for V8 is illogical.
2. It turns an international grading system into a British-specific grading system.
3. There's no need to be able to compare Font and V grades directly - pick your system and stick to it.
4. The argument about V8 needing to be split because it's too wide doesn't hold water, because most grades are wide. Take a look at some of the grade votes for Yorkshire problems - for several problems there is a consensus that it's hard (or easy) for the grade, but not the grade higher (or lower). [and now of course now we have the boldering.com evidence about V8]

[dave]

Hi Simon

I noticed something interesting in one of your earlier posts - hope you don't mind me highlighting it here, I'm not picking faults or anything, so bear with me.....

It seems to me that the V8+ grade is a very good way of sorting out the "7b+/V8/V9 conundrum" - and its to your credit, and i don't think many would disagree. However, i don't think that is the problem solved, as I think the percieved "7b+/V8/V9 conundrum" is a symtom of an underlying problem, which is our need, as British boulderers, to refer back to Font grades and problems. In your earlier post you said:

.....in the same way that when I see V6 I immediately think Font 7a.

Which is my point exactly, if we were using Vs in an ideal world it wouldn't matter what font grade it equated to, but it does, so why don't we just cut out the middle man and use Font grades?

Should we use Font grades but forget the traverse grade and try to work the lower grades out properly?

Yeah, or at least lets give it a shot. I think to be honest the traverse grade thing isn't a problem, we can just ignore it and all it means is when a bleautard comes over, our traverses might seem a little bit harder than the grade suggests (is that the right way round?), which i bet will appeal to the yorkshire lads, since they like to think they are sandbag kings!

[Stu Littlefair]

Perhaps a modified font system is the way to go. One without stupid traverse grades and shit.

Alternatively, if we use V grades and if V8 turns out to be no wider than any other grade, why cant ww just accept V8 as it is. Surely as intelligent people we can all accept that some V8's will be 7b, and some will be 7b+ and there's absolutely no problem with that.

in fact, a possibility that no-one seems to consider is that the font system is too fine around 7b/7b+ - personally I find 7b and 7b+ much of a muchness in Font, not something I could say about 7a+/7b.....

I don't know if this forum preserves text formattting, but the two grading scales may look something like this

V6      V7      V8      V9        V10
7a     7a+   7b  7b+  7c     7c+


The only way to resolve this is for the UK bouldering community to send representatives to spend, say, a month in font and the US, ticking problems around this level, so that, if they do enough problems of enough styles, they can get some sort of handle of the spacing of the two systems. As I recognise the importance of this issue, I humbly suggest myself.... :wink:

[Pantontino]

Jon, that's not an insult, that's just lively debate.

My principal argument is that we should consider the notion that the 2 (or 3 if you include the B grades) main systems on offer are not (for one reason or another) perfect. I believe that British boulderers shouldn't accept something if it doesn't work for us.

As for the US discussion forum that you have posted on: firstly the quality of debate on there is hardly equivalent to the depth of discussion on UKB is it? How many of these posters have the same cross referencing experience of bouldering both in the US and in Europe? (perhaps some I admit, but the British are a travelleing nation) We Brits (most likely because of our geographical position) are in a unique state: unwilling (despite the geographical closeness and long term establishment of the Font grades) to wholly accept the Font system because of the trav thing and the lack of understanding of the low grades, yet (some of us are) uneasy about adopting the V grade system without changing it for the better.

Perhaps Dave is right, maybe we should just go with the Font method, but ignore the traverse rule. I guess I feel more comfortable with this than sticking with a rigid implementation of the V system.

As for answering your points;
Nos 1 and 4 are presumably the same argument? (although I did notice that you ignored  my reference to the widespread use of V0- and V0+)
It will always be possible to find variation and disagreement within any specified grade range, no matter how small the field of difficulty is. It is my belief that V8 is a big grade (i.e. it equates to 2 seperate Font grades) whilst the grades either side of it on the scale only relate to 1. Yes it is true that lower down the scale V5 equates to both 6c and 6c+, so perhaps we should also split these as well?
No 2 I have no problem changing something if it doesn't work.
No 3 Of course there is a need to compare Font and V grades. If I'm travelling to a foriegn crag or reading about a foriegn area I want to know the relative difficulty of the problems on offer. I don't know anybody who is not interested in the the cross comparisons between grading systems (whether they be a description of routes or boulder problems). I agree, we need to pick a system, but I believe we should be open minded with regard to the fine tuning of whatever system we go with.

[Pantontino]

Stu, surely some sort of objective 1 funding bid could be made to this end. The authorities need to realise how important this issue is to us. I reckon 2 million would cover an all expenses paid 2 year study. I would gladly give up my day job and sacrifce my own free time to go bouldering around the world, if it means that this conundrum can be sorted out once and for all.
But that's just the sort of selfless guy that I am.

Failing that I might just wait and see which way the vote goes. (shit, I better get on the phone quick and start bribing people!)

[Big Frank]

If V8+ looses will you accept that, or will you battle on.

Will Rockfax remove it from their grading system.

Like wise will jon use it on yorkshiregrit.com if the consensus says the Keel is V8+.

[Pantontino]

I guess I should respect the general consensus (if such a thing exists) and change the system used in the N Wales guide if that is what the majority of people want. On the other hand, maybe there is no harm in different areas using different systems.
For my magazine column I was told by Bernard (the editor) to stick with one system, mostly because he thought it was a waste of space to keep offering translations all the time.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see the results of the vote.

[mark]

V grades? No! I don't want British bouldering to be the victim of US cultural imperialism. Why should we use their system when our bouldering is better than theirs and we've been doing it longer? And I don't want any more Americans able to come over and say, "Dude, that's, like, so not V10. It's, like, V8 max."

Font grades? We've already swallowed French grades for sport routes, that's enough. They haven't even got the imagination to think up a new scale for bouldering, they just adjust the routes system and apply it to a different activity. Then there's the confusion over traverse grades and the fact that no-one - not even the Bleausards themselves - understands what's going on from Font 6a to 6c. So, no to Font grades.

We can't use B grades as they were effectively strangled at birth by the Rockfax Peak Bouldering random grade generator. Great guide otherwise but the grading is comical. Plus the Northumberland guide's adoption of the same letter further confuses things.  

UK technical grades don't work because everything is 6b.

So come on Simon, take a stand with the North Wales guide and invent a new system. We want it to spread throughout the UK, so nothing too area-specific. If it's used consistently then it might catch on. You can push it through your new guide and the Climber reports, Mike and Jon can use it on their sites. And it'll give us more to argue about whenever grades get discussed and that's half the fun.

How about X? X, the unknown. X, the mystery ingredient. It's got '50s science fiction flavour, it's cool. Gentlemen, I commend this motion to the house.

[AndyR]

Err, am I being stupid - where's the vote?  :?

[dave]

Its Here

[Big Frank]

Yes Andy you are being stupid :silly:

[jonP]

... invent a new system

No!

... Mike and Jon can use it on their sites ...

Mike can do what he likes, but I'll always stick to an internationally accepted system, be that V or Font!

[dave]

....and invent a new system.

In the interests of vanity I'm gonna repost my original suggestion for a new grade scale. Its called The Unified Grade Theory:

4c, 5a, 5b, 5c, 6a, V2, V3, V4, V5, 7a, 7a+, 7b, 7b+, 7c, 7c+, 8a, 8a+, 8b, 8b+, 8c.......

Combining the strongest points of the english tech grade, font grade and V-grades. There no silly traversing rules, and its distinctly "not rad" so you won't catch the Yanks using it. Plus its just complicated enough to have healthy debates down the pub.

[Bubba]

...Mike can do what he likes...

I'll be sticking with the Vs that are already on here until this all settles down. I'm not changing everything until I absolutely have to, it's hard enough finding time to develop new stuff, let alone changing what's there already!

...the mystery ingredient. It's got '50s science fiction flavour, it's cool...

heh heh! I'd quite like to see

[Bubba]

We need more opinions on this subject - come on any lurking boulderers - get signed up, vent your spleen and place your votes!

[Matt]

How about a UK grading system that offers something more than the foreign offerrings?

If we stuck with english tech for the hardest move and then say 3-5 sub-divisions for how hard the series of moves were then it would be easier than trying to impose other countries grades, and provides more info for an on-sight. You would end up with 6b-1 for a single 6b move, 6b-3 for some sustained 5c/6a and then a 6b move or 6b-5 for loads of 6b climbing.

This would conveniently match up with font and V grades and provide a better description of lower grade problems. The problem with the stretched UK 6c grade would need to be sorted though. 7b+ and V8+ could then be either 6c-4 or 7a-1!!

Discuss

[jonP]

Don't be silly Matt, it's too complicated!  And Font & V grades are well established so we may as well use one (or both) of these.  

How's Germany treating you?  Have you built a model of The Keel at the local wall yet?

[Matt]

no more complicated than E grade and tech grade!

Germanys not offerring any climbing yet, haven't even found a wall yet so going to be piss weak when I do!

[Omega]

Having just returned from three weeks in the Font, I have one thing to add to this discussion:

It seems to me that the 7b+ grade is used fairly sparingly in the forest.  When it is used, it tends to be on problems that have a 'trick' or a 'knack', or those that are heavily conditions dependant.  Take for example Onde de Choc 7b and Le Marginal 7b+ at Apremont.  While both are similar in height, quality and difficulty (with similar climbing and hold types), Le Marginal gets 7b+ because its that little bit more tricky.  However, if you're lucky enough to get a nice dry cold day and you have perfect beta Marginal will feel more like 7b (in fact, it'll feel exaxtly as hard as Onde de Choc).

I guess my point is that the 7b+ grade seems to be a tweak itself - a recognition that around this level of difficulty, a few subtle differences (not ordinarily sufficient to justify a full grade increase) can make a huge difference to the 'feel' of a problem.  When you combine this with the usual qualifications about grades (subjective, approximations, blah blah blah) it adds up to 7b+ - a grade that has no direct comparision to the V grades used in the USA.

Given this, and given the fact that most British boulderers are bound to end up at the Font at some stage, I can't see the harm in Simon adding a v8+ grade to indicate a problem that, if it was in the Forest, might get 7b+ - I would certainly find that useful.

As for those who predict massive confusion, I'm afraid you'll all be savagely disappointed.  If British climbers can cope with E grades, UK tech grades and the weather, then they can cope with a small grade tweak.

[justfunk_]

I agree with simon on this one we do need the V8+ grade!

Its a good idea simon ,end of story!

I use the grade loads as i have many problems that have not been V9 nor V8 so usinf the plus grade is ideal!

Why dont we have a plus for most/all the other grades?  That to may come in handy?

[jonP]

I guess my point is that the 7b+ grade seems to be a tweak itself

I don't have first hand experience of this, but I suspect you're talking bollocks.  Problems are graded 7b+ cos they're harder than 7b and easier than 7c - surely this is obvious!

Why dont we have a plus for most/all the other grades?

That makes a lot more sense than just V8+ alone.  Personally I don't think we need +s and -s, but I can see the value in it.

[Omega]

I guess my point is that the 7b+ grade seems to be a tweak itself

I don't have first hand experience of this, but I suspect you're talking bollocks.  Problems are graded 7b+ cos they're harder than 7b and easier than 7c - surely this is obvious!

If you don't have any first hand experience then you ought to keep your 'suspicions' to yourself (ie. put a sock in it).  

Contrary to your assumption, the Font grading system doesn't operate along a linear continuim of difficulty.  In fact it takes account of many other aspects of a climb such as how high it is and what the landing is like.  

Hence, Dalle d'Allain (a slab problem you are no doubt familiar with) gets 7a+ when the nearby Hieroglyphe 7a is actually physically more difficult - Why? Because if you fall off the last (crux) move on Dalle d'Allain you will break your neck.  

Therefore, it is simply wrong to assume that because a problem gets 7b+ that it is "harder" than a 7b but easier than a 7c.  Nice post, though!

[dave]

Hence, Dalle d'Allain (a slab problem you are no doubt familiar with) gets 7a+ when the nearby Hieroglyphe 7a is actually physically more difficult - Why? Because if you fall off the last (crux) move on Dalle d'Allain you will break your neck.

I think you've just proved yourself wrong there. You are saying that Hieroglyphe is physicall harder than Dalle d'Allain, which i will belive (i've tried the latter, and spotted a mate on it so i know how high/dodgy it is). But due to the nature of these problems, you would expect that the 7a gets more ascents than the 7a+. So with all factors included in the grade, it looks like 7a+s are overall harder (thus less ascents) than a 7a? Non?