[Omega]

But due to the nature of these problems, you would expect that the 7a gets more ascents than the 7a+. So with all factors included in the grade, it looks like 7a+s are overall harder (thus less ascents) than a 7a? Non?

Depends what you mean by "harder".  If we are taking about physical difficulty then I'm afraid to say that Hieroglyphe is harder even though it gets a lesser grade.  Or to use my first example, Marginal and Onde de Choc are physically of the same difficulty (for me) but one gets 7b and the other 7b+.  My point was to demonstrate that the Font grading system does not necessarily reflect increasing levels of physical difficulty - hence the 7b+ grade being more of a tweak than anything else.

However, if you are measuring difficulty by the number of ascents a problem has then, sure, Dalle d'Allain sees less traffic but then so does Balafre (and that's only 6a).

[dave]

I would say "harder" means things like "less likely to do" or "more problematic getting to the top". I think in boudlering, as with any part of climbing, difficulty has to be gauged overall, including all the factors. Its a bit like comparing Great Slab (Froggatt) with Desperation at Stanage (both popular non-esoteric classics). No-one would argue that the latter is physically harder, yet Great Slab is the more "difficult" route, thus it gets less ascents.

[jonP]

All you're saying is that Font grades take danger & height into account.  I think this is well known.

Which of these do you think is more likely:
1. A problem is graded 7b+ because it is harder than 7b but easier than 7c (all factors eg height taken into account).
2. A problem is graded 7b+ because it is really a 7b with a 'trick'

Nice post though.

[dave]

#1.

[Paz]

Dalle D'Alain 7a+?  I effing rule :rocker2:

Have you still got that photo with that hat Dave?

[dave]

Damn rite!!  :worthy:

Unfortunatley its not on the web no-more, unless it still lingers on Quim's site.

[dave]

.....but there is still this one on Quim's site:



Textbook spotting I might add.

[Paz]

Nice one, did you really wear that shirt to do Cul de Chien or is Quim having a laugh?

[dave]

Second time round, for the photos, yes.

[Omega]

All you're saying is that Font grades take danger & height into account.  I think this is well known.

Exactly.  And V grades don't - hence the problem with comparisons.

Which of these do you think is more likely:
1. A problem is graded 7b+ because it is harder than 7b but easier than 7c (all factors eg height taken into account).
2. A problem is graded 7b+ because it is really a 7b with a 'trick'

Do you ever find yourself walking around and around in circles?  

My point is that two problems rated 7b and 7b+ respectively could get exactly the same V grade.  However, my own experience at Font is that this difference is often explained by some additional factor not typically built into the Hueco grading system - eg. a trick or a very conditions dependent problem.  Apparently you find this concept impossible to digest.  You should get out there sometime and test it out for yourself.

In any event, in to answer your question, I think #1 and #2 are both common enough in the forest.

Nice post though.

Nice website.

[Pantontino]

Despite the fact that my wife has just gone into labour and I shouldn't really be on here at all, here goes: I had a conversation with a mate of mine at the wall tonight. I told him about this online discussion (he was unaware of what people had been saying on here - which is not surprising really, because like most climbers he doesn't bother reading internet forums) and he told what he thought. Pete is a very talented climber, certainly elite by most people's standards and to some extent I think he is typical of his breed. He said that although he fully understood the V8+ tweak, and that it did help him translate back to Font grades, that for anything above V6/ 7a he always thought in Font grades anyway. He said he could see why low/ mid grade climbers might ralate more to V grades, but that for him it didn't matter what system people used at this level. I told him about Dave's suggestion, and at first he laughed, well, we both laughed...but then we had to acknowledge the logic of it.
I know this will piss Ygrit off (probably a good thing), but maybe we could go with a perverse split: V0- to V5, then 7a to 8c? for the upper grades. I should add that all of the lower grade climbers that I have canvassed of late were not happy with using Font grades, but if the grade lies outside their reach, then surely it doesn't matter if we switch to a different system.

Just a thought. Feel free to vent your spleen.

[Bubba]

like most climbers he doesn't bother reading internet forums

Oh I dunno, there's lots of people who and use the web - it seems to mainly depends upon what people do for a living, which is why there's lots of IT/University peeps on these forums.

Too complicated IMHO - ok, the route grades work well enough like this (vs, hvs, e1, e2) but that's only because it's been around for donkey's - I don't think anyone would have proposed that system back in the 30's or whenever it was conceived (showing complete ignorance of climbing history here).

A grading scale should be consistent and user-friendly, and I think a hybrid is just going to add un-necessary confusion. I'd rather see a new, completely independent UK scale than have a hybrid of two other systems.

Personally I just don't like Font grades - why piss about with +'s instead of just having another grade. Also, I don't think it's helpful to add factors such as danger into a bouldering grade - it's generally pretty obvious if you're doing to crack your head open falling off the last move of a problem, or whatever.

[dave]

I told him about Dave's suggestion, and at first he laughed, well, we both laughed...but then we had to acknowledge the logic of it.

Bo Selecta!

Maybe when we've all solved the grading conundrum we can then tackle something a bit easier, like finding a cure for cancer, world peace, or getting cold fusion to work.

[mark]

Hybrid system, hmmm. It would be a bit funny but if it matches the way people actually think then I can't see why not.

If we're not going to have a dedicated UK system - and the opportunity for that evaporated when B-grades proved so unpopular - then the system we use needs to be...
1. Consistently and accurately applied. We need a system that people actually understand. If the V-grade/Font hybrid matches that then it's fine.
2. Useful for comparison with foreign areas, so that you have an indication of which problems it's worth trying when you travel. Both systems get used around the world so, again, the hybrid would work.

Would definitely be a bit weird though.

[Pantontino]

I know it would be wierd, and I was only half serious when I mentioned it.
Yet the more I've lived with the idea, the more it has grown on me.

I did go back and regrade everything in the NWales guide with a Font grade, and apart from a few fuzzy areas where I wasn't certain it did seem to be quite easy to do. The only problem is that the low/ mid grade climbers (that I have broached the subject with) prefer to use the V system.

There is a certain logic - albeit perverse - to Dave's idea. If you consider that, at present we do not use the V grade sytem or the Font system in the same way as it was intended. With the Font grades we ignore the traverse rule and with the V grades we tend to push the grade up if a problem is bold, whereas the Americans don't (there are plenty of highball problems in the US that would get described as routes over here).

Cheers, Simon.

PS We had a baby boy (9lb 1oz) this morning!

[Bubba]

Hybrid - noooooo!!!! Step in the wrong direction imho. I'd rather see a re-worked b-grade system than that   :roll:

Congratulations on the new arrival Simon  :D  - 9lbs?! That's one big babby  :!:

[james]

Congratulations on the new baby Simon , what is he called?  
I am not particularly bothered what grading system we use.  I like Font grades.  I can relate more to them at the top end of the scale than I can to the V grades.  Having said that, I think the V8+ is a great idea to add to the V scale.  
I think grading systems should be able to tie together, especialy the Font and English (whatever we chose in the end) grades as english people will spend alot more time in font than in the states.  
If we chose to incorporate the V8+ so that we can easily transfer to Font grades then the scale we use will be an English version of the V grade.  In that case, why not make our own scale that fits to the font scale but with a certain whole number for each grade so we avoid any irregularities.  As Percy sugested earlier, why not re-work the B grade and apply it accuratly.
Cheers

James

[mark]

Congratulations, Simon, that's great news. Hope all the family is doing well.

[hongkongstuey]

In that case, why not make our own scale that fits to the font scale but with a certain whole number for each grade so we avoid any irregularities.

which brings us round to the old chestnut of why bother creating aq new system that matches an existing one? why not just use that?

I still say go with existing V's - its good enough for the rest of the world

Congrats Simon - enjoy those sleepless nights

[Doylo]

Most people i know support or have at least accepted V8+, don't really see what all the big fuss is about to be honest, its not that big a deal, people can easily use their chosen grading system on problems whether its 7b+, V8+, V8/9.

[Bubba]

BUMP!

What's happening on this issue then?

Pantontino, have you decided whether V8+ is in or out of the Wales guide yet?

[Norton Sharley]

Can I just point out that the original B grades used in the Peak Bouldering guide

The only boulder grading system that doesn't tally well with Peak B grades or Font. grades is the American V system.

Just to add further confusion to this argument .. the B grades actually originated from the Yorkshire Bouldering guide not Peak.  Steves' guide quotes the grades as being based on Hueco V grade system, which as every punter knows is slightly different to the rest of the States anyway.  The Peak guide used 'B' grades but check the comparisons - they're the same.  So in theory V and B are the same and tally exactly with F.  

There's more - Steve had not bouldered in the States so how would he know the grades?  And the grades for some crags were based on a seperate 'B' system from 1 to 7, where anything harder than 7 was also given 7 cos' it made life easier!

Anyway, why do we need grades for bouldering?  Surely they are just a means of ego massaging?  Just do the nicest looking lines.

[Houdini]

BUMP!

What's happening on this issue then?

 A timely reminder Bubs!





I've finally decided on an entirely new grading system.  Let's call it...(looks into the pregnant space above his head for inspiration)...  The H grade. 



Routers can fuck off!

I'm finalizing details as you think and I'm a very very busy bee, so don't bother me with questions!

[BenF]

I'm finalizing details as you think and I'm a very very busy bee, so don't bother me with questions!

  

Right, you've had eight hours (and possibly time to sleep it off), explain it to us so we can use it our sitstarts to sport routes...   

[dave k]

Just noticed that Awesome Wall in Stockport uses V8+ on their grade converter.