[Pantontino]

Some bloke called jon (?), Andy Robinson and a host of unknown posters have gone on Rocktalk and started slagging off the V8+ grade thang. I could take this sort of thing seriously if any of these (insert obligatory insult) actually came up with any reasons why they were so irked by the this new idea.
M@t upstairs, did make a good point that I feel is worthy of debate. Perhaps we should consider a wholesale downgrading of the UK version of theV system, before the next round of bouldering guides go to print (obviously quite soon in my case!)?

What do you think?

Cheers, Simon.

[hongkongstuey]

I thought the whole idea of adopting the V grading system was that it gave us a universal 'global bouldering grading' system  so that comparisons of problems etc can be made on the larger scale, you can go to a new area in another part of the world and have an idea of what you might or might not get up. etc. etc.

If we go altering things to fit the needs of the few people who feel compelled to have something that matches Font 7b+ then what was the point of taking the V system in the first place??????? we may aswell have stuck with B grades - atleast they had a different name and wouldn't cause widespread confusion of having 'UK' V grades and 'rest of the world' V grades

The rest of the world seems to be surviving quite happily with V grades without the inclusion of V8+ (and before talk of Font this and Font that starts, have you ever heard a frenchman complain that theres no V8+, can't say i have!) so why can't we. What is it with people in the UK that means they can't accept other peoples ideas without trying to better them!

Regrading everything below V8 - daft idea in my view, stick to the system already in place (without v8+) - but that is just my view (you did ask what people thought)

[Pantontino]

It is simple really.
I like the V grade system because it seems more logical in the lower grades and does not have any silly bullshit about traverses/ up lines. the Font system works well for 'up' problems above 7a (which is presumably why the elite British climbers often use it), but in the low to mid grades and on roof problems, traverses or diagonal lines it is fairly useless.
As for the rest of the world not having any misgivings about the comparisons between the 2 systems, are you sure? I've spoken to lots of well travelled people who feel the same. I didn't just make this up for a laugh. I do recall someone highlighting a US website that specified problems as either V8, V8/9 or V9. Interestingly this tweak was not applied to any other grades throughout the spectrum.

I'm not trying to prove a point (for the sake of it) or 'better' someone else as you have suggested; I just haven't heard a convincing argument yet against what I originally proposed. If you or anyone else can provide a strong case then I will bow my head and admit I was wrong.

So far M@upstairs is the only person who has (slightly) turned my head.

[Bubba]

Well, this one has always been a hot tata! I can understand that people don't like the way it messes up a "pure" system.

For me, the fact that the V grading system doesn't allow easy, one to one comparison with Font grades is less important than if the existing V8 grade really covers the same level of difficulty that would be covered by 2 grades elsewhere in the scale.

It seems stupid to have a linear grading system where, for example a V6 is a given amount harder than a V5 and a V3 is that same amount harder than a V2 if that progression then falls down completely when a V9 is two times that amount harder than a V8.

It would be interesting to see what the Americans think - I point you to these (non uk) sites that refer to V8+:

http://www.bouldering.com/old_news.htm
http://www.riadventuresource.com/climbinghome.html?riticklist.html
http://ns.bouldering.ca/NEWS1.html

I'm not saying that this is evidence that there is an overwhelming majority in the US/Canada that feel the same way, but it does perhaps point towards the existence of a problem in the V system. If that system is flawed, is there anything wrong with us wanting to take the opportunity to adopt a corrected version of that system? Ok, as others have said we could either downgrade everything below V8 or upgrade everything above, but then we'd lose the compatibility with the US system, which would be a shame.

People who don't like it can always just call V8+s V8s  :wink:

It would be interesting to hear from more people who are experienced in US bouldering between V7-V10 who could shed some more light on this, as for me, bouldering in this range is pretty academic.

As an aside, I don't pretend to know my American bouldering history but why didn't many V8+s or (very hard V8s) get upgraded to V9s long before this became an issue?

[jonP]

Some bloke called jon (?) ... have gone on Rocktalk and started slagging off the V8+ grade thang.

You're being a bit over-sensitive here.  I didn't slag it off, I merely stated my opposition to it.  I posted the topic because I felt it was worthy of discussion and I was interested in hearing other people's views.

[dave]

For my money, the idea grading scale uses the best of all the existing systems, it goes something like this

4c,  5a,  5b,  5c,  6a,  V2,  V3,  V4,  V5,  7a,  7a+, 7b,  7b+, 7c,  7c+, 8a,  8a+, 8b,  8b+,  8c.......

Look on the plus sides:

• caters for the easier grades, thus the british tech grade crowd
• avoids the font grades 5-6 confusion
• avoids the V8+/7b+7c confusion

Note:
7b+ shall be known as the "John Welford" grade.

[Bubba]

A laudable effort, but you missed out the Font traverse grades. I think these are essential to any rounded system.

[dave]

I don't understand where the french are coming from with this font traverse grade bollocks - in fact i don't think i understand anything about it at all - whats the point of it??

Are they gonna then have a seperate system for problems that go up for a few moves but traverse a bit at the top? or what about rising diagonal lines?

I don't see the need for seperate traverse grades, just give it a normal grade relating to how hard it is just like an any other problem, and if it longer than about 10 moves then give it a pseudo-sport grade as a side note.

[Bubba]

Traverse grades are daft, and are surely some sort of Font only weirdness. Diagonal grades on the other hand might be the way forward - NBTA could be DT3, for example.

Back to the argument.....So, is the V8 --> V9 jump any different than for example the V5 --> V6 jump? Following the CT thread, most people think not, but most of them haven't given a good reason. If there was not a problem then why would some Yanks be using V8+? Maybe it's time to ask boldering.com what they think?

Stu L does rightly point out that at the higher levels of bouldering, it's more likely to be your body-shape or particular strength and weaknesses that will provide wider differences in perceived grade than anything else.

[dave]

I've probably posted this before on the old ukb forum, but for posterity i'll try to say it again here.

Clearly in north america they use Vs as a linear scale standing alone, and I've never heard any over there saying they have trouble with the V8/9 area - It seems to work for them. On the other hand, we are stuck half-way between a rock and a hard place, between font grades and V-grades. In an ideal world we would just adopt V-grades and hang everything else. The problem with this is that only being a few hours drive/ferry away from font, thats never going to be possible - we will always want to refer back to font more than we will to hueco, cos more of us have been to font, and more often.

This is why there is a percieved need for V8+, cos although we are trying to use Vs the font grades are still there deep down, which is why we want a direct comparison of V6=7a, V7=7a+, V8=7b, V8+=7b+, V9=7c. But if we do this, all we are left with essentially is a system which looks like V-grades, but really is just font grades in disguise. So for my money we should stop kidding ourselfs and use font grades outright.  

"but font grades don't work as well for easier problems" i hear you cry. Well i don't think this is strictly true, It probably more to do with the fact that we as Brits often don't grasp the subtleties of font-style climbing when we try easier problems in the forest. The locals seem to cope with it fine.

So to summarise i recon there are 2 sollutions to the british bouldering conundrum:

1. Use V-grades outright. I don't belive this can ever work while we are only a couple of hunderd miles from Font.

2. Use font grades outright. I recon this is the logical answer.

[mark]

Re: "Stu L does rightly point out that at the higher levels of bouldering, it's more likely to be your body-shape or particular strength and weaknesses that will provide wider differences in perceived grade than anything else."

I think this is true at any grade. Any attempt to have an objective grading system is doomed. No two people will ever agree on all grades. Grades can only ever be approximations.

[Bubba]

Yes Mark, this can be the case at any level, I just guess it becomes more apparant as holds get sparser, moves become more extreme, etc. Any grading system is only a guide but I think it's still desirable to have a sensible system.

Why can nobody explain the following:

The Font/V scales can be directly matched grade for grade up until V8, and also at V9 and above. Ie, each grading system has the same (or very similar) distinct jump between grades. V6=7a, V7=7a+, etc.

So why the anomoly at V8/V9 ? If the Font system has an extra grade in there (7b+), then surely this points to the fact that the V8 to V9 gap is too wide relative to the rest of the scale?

If that's the case, where's the harm of V8+?

[Big Frank]

Those other guys that dont like V8+ did post various reasons, one of the best being that if we want an international system we have to accept V8+ does not exsist.

From what I can see the majority consensus is opposed to V8+. I understand your reasoning but dont agree with it.

Like sloper said the keel is easy V9 not hard V8, as that is what V8+ means.

[Bubba]

Yeah, but what if it does exist? See the links above and you've got two US websites and one Canadian one that have used V8+. Now, if they've thought of it, doesn't that indicate a problem?

I don't know, I've never bouldered in either country, but I'd be interested to know whether they've been thinking the same thing for years. If they have, then we don't have a problem.

[jonP]

No doubt the debate will settle down in time and V8+ will either gain widespread acceptance or die.  I'll be interested to see if my refusal to use it on yorkshiregrit.com has any influence or if I'll be forced to accept it in the end.

[jonP]

http://www.bouldering.com/old_news.htm
http://www.riadventuresource.com/climbinghome.html?riticklist.html
http://ns.bouldering.ca/NEWS1.html

I think the use of V8+ or V8/9 in these links is meant to imply uncertainty in the grade, rather than being an indication of an actual grade.  

I've never read or heard anything about V8+ being used in America.

[Bubba]

You could well be right, it's a bit ambiguous I suppose, and I agree, I've not heard much along those lines either, but then unless you were specifically listening out for it then you wouldn't do.

I did come across a South African site that actually mentions V8+ (7b+) which is interesting. I'm going to raise it on some foreign forums when I get home to see if I get laughed off or whether this is an issue elsewhere.

I think, as you say it'll either be accepted wholesale or it'll fade away. It largely depends upon the guidebooks. I think you are safe on YG.com for the moment as the current Yorks guide doesn't use V8+, but judging by the Rockfax grade table, they may well adopt it in the future, which means the next Peak guide and presumable the next Yorks one too. I know that's years away and the whole thing may have changed by then.

[mark]

One problem is that the Font and V scales were developed independently, so the boundaries between grades are going to be at different points on the two scales. Attempts to match the two up will necessarily involve adjusting one or the other. Grade boundaries are arbitrary so there is no reason why the two scales should have their boundaries at the same points. It would be an incredible coincidence if they did. Therefore it is not right to say that, for example, V6 = Font 7a. In reality, the two grades might cover a similar area in the difficulty continuum but there is going to be overlap with neighbouring grades.  

And of course all that is based on the idea that there is an objective continuum of difficulty with all problems neatly arranged along it in an agreed order. In fact that continuum is not even constant for a single person - some days I can do particular problems and not others, other days vice versa - let alone among different people.

If we were all to list the problems we have done in order of their difficulty we would produce wildly different results. And the truth is not revealed by taking all our lists and averaging them, the truth is that we are all subjectively right. Angle Jean-Luc at Roches aux Sabots really is harder than West Side Story. For me. For someone else it isn't. We're both right. The fact that they are graded 6b+ and 7b+ respectively just shows how huge is the variation in perception of difficulty, and how inaccurate must be any attempt at objectivity.

[Pantontino]

I agree with Mark that it would be an incredible coincidence if two seperate systems matched exactly. However they do seem to apart from in the V8/9 area. There is a precedent for this type of system matching: look at previous attempts to match both British E grades and US grades with French route grades. the E grade match was wisely dropped, but the US system now has a direct correlation to the French system. When I see 5.13a I immediately think 7c+, in the same way that when I see V6 I immediately think Font 7a.
If the Font system was clearer in the lower grades and it didn't have this stupid inconsistency with regard to traverses, roof problems, diagonal lines, traverses into up lines and the climbing in Font (tricky) had more in common with British style bouldering (power based) then I would embrace the Font system. Unfortunately it isn't, and it doesn't (twice).

So, if we start using the Font system we are going to have to change it anyway.

[Percy B]

Can I just point out that the original B grades used in the Peak Bouldering guide have a grade for every 'Font' grade without the needs for the + symbol. We have a rough idea how these grades compare to the other systems in general use in Europe (eg: B8=7b, B9=7b+, B10=7c, B11=7c+, B12=8a, and so on) allowing for a bit of discrepancy and odd exception. Of course a B8 on grit will feel easier than 7b at Font if you live in the Peak or Yorkshire, and likewise the Bleausards find standard grit B8's harder than 7b's in Font. Its hard to compare different rock types, and problem styles by comparing grading systems. We just need to use a system thats easy to understand, and works for us (the Brits!)
The only boulder grading system that doesn't tally well with Peak B grades or Font. grades is the American V system. America is a long way away, and sometimes I feel that rather than be badgered into using someone elses system that doesn't work too well, we should use our own! I only suggest Peak grades as they are tried and tested. I think Al Cameron-Duff might have gone with V grades in the Yorkshire guide because he's bouldered loads in the States and knew that system best. However, if folks can't live with the concept of V8+, bring back the old B system. If nothing else, its rewards Font 8a boulderers a bigger number to tick, and as we all know - its all about numbers! :wink:

[Percy B]

Oh....I forgot. The Welford grade of 7b+ is obviously in a system all by itself. As evidence I give you Great White (7b+) at Curbar. I need say no more :wink:

[jonP]

Well I suggested the idea of V8+ to our American friends on boldering.com (http://www.boldering.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3479) - here's what they had to say:

"Give me a break. Is this a joke?"
"What are you 15?"
"Readjusting the grade scale = CHUFF !"
"You're taking the piss, right?"
"your statment begs to be ridiculed"
"why are all the polls so fucking stupid?"

... I think it's fair to say they don't think V8+ is a good idea.  Sorry Simon.

[Bubba]

Oh....I forgot. The Welford grade of 7b+ is obviously in a system all by itself. As evidence I give you Great White (7b+) at Curbar. I need say no more :wink:

What is it really then, 7C?  I've seen people brutally slapped about by this problem!

[Bubba]

Well I suggested the idea of V8+ to our American friends on boldering.com...

Hmmm... they're not keen are they? At least they didn't start that Tard thing

Ok, we've had plenty of arguments from both sides - so what to do? I thought it was a great idea if it addressed the problem of a too wide V8 grade at the same time, but the difference in the origins of the two scales is largely to blame for that.

Is it worth it purely to have a convenient match up with Font grades? Should we adopt our own version, thus destroying international compatibility? Should we use Font grades but forget the traverse grade and try to work the lower grades out properly? Should we <shudder> stick with the B grades?

[Pantontino]

Jon (YGrit), of course the Americans are going to reject V8+. I never imagined they would ever take it seriously. It's their system and obviously they will be protective of it. (Did you imagine that such a cheap shot would win you this argument?) I don't give a shit if the Americans use V8+, I never suggested they would. I used examples from America in my original argument merely to express the cultural influence of the place.  
Similarly, I can't deny that the Fontainebleau culture has never touched me. Of course it has, of course I constantly translate back and forth between the 2 systems, but I am not completely happy with either.
I believe we do need a British specific grading system. Whether this could be a tweaked V system as I had envisaged or a tweaked Font system (as  I have briefly considered on occasion) or as Percy suggests a revival of the much maligned B grade is open for all of us to decide.

On Rocktalk you stated that you have never come across V0+. Surely as a forthright campaigner for the use of the 'pure' V grade system you will own a copy of John Sherman's seminal Hueco Tanks guide book (1991)? If not, I suggest you get hold of a copy (or failing that, a copy of Stone Crusade) and turn to pages 19 and 20 (as I am doing right now as I type this): bold as daylight, V0-, V0 and V0+. These grades are well established and widely used.

 
Ultimately my goal is accuracy, ease of use, widespread acceptance and understanding, and finally, international parity with other systems.

Your blinkered, knee-jerk refusal to accept that there is anything wrong with any given system ("pick a system and stick to it") is depressing. What is so wrong with progression, improvement and refinement?