UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB on April 08, 2013, 01:12:23 pm
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Absolutely. Time for a party...
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Topics getting locked because one person takes offense. Has it come to this?
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oh dear.....
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Shall we extend the same respect to saville?
Thatcher killed 2 communities here. We are still running at 25% unemployment. She used troops as strike breakers for god sake!
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Taking pleasure in someone eventually getting their due, as I did when she was pushed out of politics, is one thing. Celebrating a human being dying is pretty low imo. Did you cheer when tories were killed in the conference bombing too?
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Good riddance
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I'm not sure if the "Good riddance" there is aimed at Thatcher or tories who died in the IRA bombing. I'd consider myself firmly on the left but, if its the latter, then that is ridiculously low and you ought to be ashamed!
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I'm not sure if the "Good riddance" there is aimed at Thatcher or tories who died in the IRA bombing. I'd consider myself firmly on the left but, if its the latter, then that is ridiculously low and you ought to be ashamed!
Will, I don't know what age you are, but I suspect both you and I are too young to fully grasp how emotive and divisive these issues were at a certain time. I'm not saying its an admirable sentiment by any means. But imposing a judgment from the position of being someone who "wasn't there", is to my mind almost as bad as lionizing someone just because they happen to have died.
Some lives are more worthy of grief than others, and many people won't grieve Thatcher one bit. At the same time, she didn't become PM by accident.
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She quoted St Francis of Assisi on the step as she first entered 10 Downing St, and then aggressively and viciously pursued the exact opposite objectives, without the slightest regard for those who were harmed in the process.
Malice burned within her.
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
Where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.
She pardoned no-one. This country's an uglier place now, and no-one should pardon her role in that.
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I wonder where Arthur Scargill stands on this? He is probably legless.
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Will, I don't know what age you are, but I suspect both you and I are too young to fully grasp how emotive and divisive these issues were at a certain time. I'm not saying its an admirable sentiment by any means. But imposing a judgment from the position of being someone who "wasn't there", is to my mind almost as bad as lionizing someone just because they happen to have died.
Some lives are more worthy of grief than others, and many people won't grieve Thatcher one bit. At the same time, she didn't become PM by accident.
Completely agree.
If you were too young to know or didnt live somewhere where the disregard of social consequences of her policies were felt then you just dont know. If you think Im wrong then read widely and without blinkers. Dont let the rose tinted view of revisionist historians who werent there and didn t see the consequences of her actions give you a false perspective.
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I feel pretty good about Margaret Thatcher being dead and I'm not the slightest bit ashamed about it.
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Let me reiterate. It was ambiguous to me whether Adge's comment "Good riddance" was aimed at Thatcher's death or at Tory party members who died in a terrorist bombing. I specifically said that if it referred to those killed by the IRA then it was a shameful thing to say. As I say, I'm liberal, but could we all agree that whilst we may dislike and hate politicians for the policies they enact, we should not wish death by violence upon them? To support the opposite would be flagrantly undemocratic.
As to the open celebration of Thatcher's death, I won't be doing so, but I certainly won't be grieving either. You're right that I wasn't directly affected by her policies, and yes, it dulls the knife greatly. That does not mean that I cannot at least empathise with those who suffered (as anybody who has read Andy Cave's book, heard the histories of the mining communities etc no doubt can). I would not say that celebration is shameful, but I'm afraid I would say it lacks propriety. Rather than rehash old text I will copy a Facebook post here instead.
John, Linda, you're absolutely right - it is undoubtedly easier to stand on a moral high ground when you weren't personally affected by past events, but not impossible. I have no problem with people harbouring hatred and ill-feeling toward her, she certainly earned it; but it's the act of celebration I find fault with.
Her death achieves nothing. Our manufacturing industries will not be rebuilt, the communities she flattened will not be restored, we are still in an economic recession brought about by the proliferation of the greed she encouraged. By raising a glass to her death you are merely saying "I outlived you", which isn't really a great feat when the opposition is a frail old woman who has been on death's door for a number of years.
Decorum?
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She used troops as strike breakers
I don't like what she did for a lot of us
However, this use of the army thing is interesting - I always believed it - my granddad was an active and well respected union representative and was involved with moderating his people's behaviour during the Thatcher oppression. His father had been stopped from working by the police/government for being a communist organiser in the 1926 strike - police guard on the house to stop him from going out to work - the family survived on food packages from Russia and what they could grow - despite his experience, my granddad took a more practical approach. Anyway, my granddad said he was pretty sure that no troops were involved in the Thatcher oppression of the miners - he talked to both sides to do his best to prevent violence - I saw him on TV and everything. He was an egocentric old git, but plenty of folk said good things about his efforts
I know someone who was in the army who said that the army was used - but he wasn't involved and couldn't name anyone who was
also, I have a step-brother-in-law who is a reporter who looked into this thing and he didn't find a single person who said they were a soldier involved in the action. what he did find was that the police squads who were brought up for the pit strikes were accommodated in army barracks - which meant that coaches full of them were seen leaving army barracks on the days of oppression
I'm not sure either way
having said all this, someone's probably going to tell me about some Panorama program that interviewed either a load of troops who did it or the person who started the rumour in the first place
just saying like
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Remember talking about this and I think that's probably the explanation for the rumors. Irrelevant though really as she certainly authorised police to act as troops. Or perhaps even worse than troops, to act with complete disregard for the law or any form of decency.
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she certainly authorised police to act as troops. Or perhaps even worse than troops, to act with complete disregard for the law or any form of decency.
you mean like when troops are instructed to carry out a "police action" as per numerous foreign interventions?
you're right, of course, there is no difference
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The police were immediately brought onside in '79 witha hefty pay rise (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/philipjohnston/3674891/Thatcher_kept_the_police_onside/), you might conjecture why.
Years ago as a youth around '90 I had an interesting hitch across the Snake with a former police officer who had joined in that wave of recruitment. He left the force about 5 years later, disgusted at what he was asked to do and the behaviour of other officers eg taping £50 notes to the windows of the coaches which delivered them to the pickets, earned through overtime.
He also said that the character of the recruits around the time of the strike did not fit with his vision of what police officers should be ie there to serve the community, not vested interests.
No mention of the army fwiw.
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https://www.facebook.com/paul.pritchard.378 (https://www.facebook.com/paul.pritchard.378)
Don't know how to add facebook posts. As Pritch says she wasn't all bad - look what she did for the slate quaries :whistle:
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i was to young to know what was going on with all this stuff, has anyone got any independant info so i can have a read to see what went on.
The impression i always get is always very one sided either she was the devil or she was a cracking politician.
cheers
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She was both, that's the sad part. The most talented and strongest-willed politcian of peacetime 20th century, but I would argue the most damaging.
She changed the politcial landscape forever, an astonishing feat for any man, let alone a woman in a more sexist era. In 79 communism vs capitalism was an unconcluded contest, but her vision of capitalism is the greed-driven free-market, Cameron is just progressing along the pathway she established, similarly motivated by a hatred for collectivism.
She was famously misquoted as saying 'There is no thing as Society' - but it's a fiction which embodied her view.
She hated the 'enemy within' as she called them, and strived to crush the unions, either forgetting or not considering that unions are made up of men, women and the children they support. In hating the unions she pushed the pendulum in favour of the employer, and employees' rights are weak now.
If you adopt a Darwinian market ideology where do you end up? With the rich in gated communities like South Africa? Taking money off the weakest financially (http://www.scope.org.uk/news/over-half-million-disabled-people-lose-lifeline-flawed-dla-change) but giving more to the most privileged? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/apr/05/hundreds-bankers-save-tax-cut) That is the logic of her reforms.
Her foundation will give an enthusiastic overview:http://www.margaretthatcher.org/essential/biography.asp
(http://www.margaretthatcher.org/essential/biography.asp)
and the Guardian articles will give a more left-leaning and diverse perspective: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/margaretthatcher (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/margaretthatcher)
ps Hugo Young (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-hugo-young) was an intelligent journalist. I haven't had the time to read this, but it might be worth a look.
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cheers mate, i will give them a read.
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I come from a mining background which was hit hard by pit closures. My father was a labour councillor. She stole my milk as a school kid. I was not brought up to love this woman! Really I could do with reading round a bit in order to get something approaching an objective view of her.
What I would say is that it seems to me her supposed salvation of the British economy was largely a product of selling off the family silver and at rock bottom prices at that. By which I mean the extraction and sale of our offshore fossil fuels, at a time of record low wholesale prices and the sale of utilities created by tax payers to private interest. The rest was by financialisation of the economy (at the expense of manufacturing), reckless deregulation and a housing bubble. All of which sowed the seeds of our current woes.
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I don't think this is logpile material. Thatcher is the person who had the single biggest influence on UK climbing in the last 50 years in my view.
Here is UK unemployment data:
(http://www.economicshelp.org/uploaded_images/unemployment-71-05-736294.gif)
Note the near tripling of unemployment from when she came into power in 1979 to 1984. It still had not returned to 1970s levels when she left office in 1990.
This mass unemployment was directly responsible for the flowering of Brit. climbing talent in the early 1980s. When there is 30% youth unemployment (and far higher in the North of England) throwing your energies into climbing seems a lot more productive than looking for work. Read Andy Cave’s book 'Learning to Breath' for some insight into this.
I wouldn’t be surprised if something similar is happening in Spain right now (current epicentre of world rock-climbing, youth unemployment now around 50%).
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I agree Bonjoy.
Current social housing crisis...sold off affordable council houses for a song. Was that a vote buyer winner?
Think you're paying too much for your utilities? Tell Sid (http://www.utilitycharges.co.uk/privatisation-gas.html)
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I don't think this is logpile material. Thatcher is the person who had the single biggest influence on UK climbing in the last 50 years in my view.
It can be moved to another board if you like.
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And don't forget the death of the Building Society, the main reason a first time buyer has almost no chance of a mortgage now.
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I wonder where Arthur Scargill stands on this? He is probably legless.
Lording it in one of his 3 houses I would think.
:-\
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/944/num-in-court-arthur-scargills-dacha-debacle (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/944/num-in-court-arthur-scargills-dacha-debacle)
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Why has everyone assumed this was connected with yesterday's breaking news?
How do you not all know I was genuinely and independently happy, and wanted to convey that feeling to the rest of you?
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Cos I saw your tweet about drinking Champagne? ;)
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Her true legacy is a less compassionate society. Busiest Monday evening in The Sheaf for a while. The pervading atmosphere of schadenfreude was surreal.
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Cos I saw your tweet about drinking Champagne? ;)
The tweet from several hours later?
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(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/4/8/1365456662820/Steve-Bell-09.03.2013-013.jpg)
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Cos I saw your tweet about drinking Champagne? ;)
The tweet from several hours later?
Bloody pedant!
I didn't bother checking the timing and knew you'd pull me up if I was wrong.....
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I'm too young to have lived through the Thatcher era, and I suppose as a result I don't have a strong opinion either way on Maggie.
However, am I alone in finding it fairly unpleasant to celebrate someone's death, whoever they are? :shrug:
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Her legacy is of public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed, which together shackle far more of the human spirit than they ever set free. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-editorial)
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We all like Robin Hood right? because he stole for the rich and gave to the poor right?
Well - under Thatcher, for the first time in a long time, the rich got richer (which always happened) but significantly - the poor got poorer.
Nuff said in my opinion.
I'm not unpacking the bunting, but neither do I feel any sense of sadness or mourning. I guess I feel sorry for the kids, only in that they've lost their mum, and it doesn't matter who you are, that's going to be painful.
Was well weird in the Sheaf View last night. It was rammed and it was clear that a large proportion had come down specifically to celebrate. Lots of cheering and hammering on tables - very uncharacteristic.
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You do all know now that this means John Major is the country's undisputed "Greatest Living Prime Minister"?
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Major wasn't all bad ....... After all he did broker the Northern Ireland peace deal ........ Sadly, he didn't stay in office long enough for the signing of the treaty, leaving Tony Blair to take the credit and thus start on his long and illustrious career as a 'peace maker' ........
As for celebrating Thatcher's death, yes it might be in bad taste, but it's in no more bad taste than celebrating her life ........ Wobbly jowled politicians endlessly lauding her 'achievments', crushing the unions, selling us that we which already owned, inexorably linking us with U.S. and thus taking us into at least three wars in which we, as a nation, had no interest in being involved in ........ And all flaunted in front of those whose liveliehoods she took .......
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher)
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I don't see a lot of rejoicing, actually, beyond the thread title. Not much to rejoice, is there?
To comment on the life of a major public figure on their death is valid. As grumpycrumpy points out, the apologists will be out in force. Yesterday the Daily Mail was taken over by 'The Woman Who Saved Britain' boldy printed at the head of nearly every page.
The framing of her legacy is a commentary on our direction of travel. Her political philosophy is held up for admiration and still emulated today. If she's a heroine, it follows privatisation and the free-market ideology she espoused are the right path, along with austerity and its consequences. UNICEF are concerned http://www.unicef.org.uk/Latest/News/report-card-11-child-wellbeing-uk-teens-ignored-by-government/ (http://www.unicef.org.uk/Latest/News/report-card-11-child-wellbeing-uk-teens-ignored-by-government/) as were Save The Children in 2012 (http://www.savethechildren.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/child_poverty_2012.pdf).
There's no other dedicated thread to comment on this, so to logpile it seems silly.
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thatcher is dead
thatcherism is still alive
I'd rather it were the other way around
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There's no other dedicated thread to comment on this, so to logpile it seems silly.
Why not un-logpile it and change the title?
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^^+1
It seems I'm not alone in thinking eulogising her life is an attempt to validate current policy:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/10/thatcher-boycott-ex-labour-minister (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/10/thatcher-boycott-ex-labour-minister).
Healey talks with some dignity at least.
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+1
To clarify, I'm not suggesting that we all express our sorrow at her passing, nor am I saying she should not be subject to political criticism following her death.
I think it is good to have a thread for discussion, as she is undoubtedly an interesting figure who draws strong opinions and has clearly had a huge impact on this country.
My comment above was solely in response to the thread title and a couple of the comments which actively celebrated her death, which personally I find very distasteful.
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thatcher is dead
thatcherism is still alive
Quite, not least in the labour party - Thatcher quipped than Blair was 'her greatest achievement'. I'm genuinely intrigued as to who all the Thatcher haters on here vote for? Is there a real left-wing alternative or is it just (nu-)Labour on tribal grounds, and ignore the policy?
(I can't imagine ever voting either Tory or Labour personally).
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Lukeyboy, decorum is all well and good, but there's nothing decorous about using death for political advantage, which is what's happening (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/10/margaret-thatcher-funeral-armed-forces). Rejoice (http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2010/11/news-rejoice-thatcher-georgia) may also be an ironic comment on her own style of PR, you'd have to ask the OP I guess.
Why are so many people so happy at her demise? Are they ALL from some tiny 'fringe loony left' as the Mail would have you believe? Or has there actually been a legacy of harm which is neither forgotten nor forgiven by a substantial number of the population? Which is more distasteful - that, or undignified comments?
Perhaps the attempt to canonise (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306853/Margaret-Thatcher-Call-Iron-Lady-statue-Trafalgar-Squares-fourth-plinth-backed-Boris-Johnson-Philip-Hammond.html)and give (expensive) state funeral honours to a premier who is widely despised isn't the right thing to do?
As for Labour JB, they are just another another vanilla right-wing party. Miliband nailed his colours to the mast with nonsense this week about contribution-based benefits (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2e941400-9f9b-11e2-b4b6-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Q4D7glyR), and his call to his MPs to respect her memory. He's afraid of losing votes, and too weak to oppose.
Another party will be needed for that. Gore Vidal's analysis of the US in the 70s seems relevant:
There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party ... and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt — until recently ... and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor, the black, the anti-imperialists get out of hand. But, essentially, there is no difference between the two parties.
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thatcher is dead
thatcherism is still alive
Quite, not least in the labour party - Thatcher quipped than Blair was 'her greatest achievement'. I'm genuinely intrigued as to who all the Thatcher haters on here vote for? Is there a real left-wing alternative or is it just (nu-)Labour on tribal grounds, and ignore the policy?
(I can't imagine ever voting either Tory or Labour personally).
:agree:
There is no one left to vote for on either side of the centre ground, even the liberals have irrevocably damaged their standing as the protest vote - they've done more to keep themselves out of power than any political party has in the last 50 years, save, perhaps thatcher after the Poll tax...
I abstain nowadays. Sad really.
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Vote green!
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Perhaps the attempt to canonise (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306853/Margaret-Thatcher-Call-Iron-Lady-statue-Trafalgar-Squares-fourth-plinth-backed-Boris-Johnson-Philip-Hammond.html)and give (expensive) state funeral honours to a premier who is widely despised isn't the right thing to do?
MPs can claim upto £3750 travel expenses in light of parliament recall (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/margaret-thatcher-mps-can-claim-£3750-travel-costs-recall-parliament-872091)
We have
☒ No money for the disabled
☒ No money for the unemployed
☒ No money for the NHS
☑ £8 million for a funeral
It’s called austerity.
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I abstain nowadays. Sad really.
Terribly sad as if you look at the ridiculously low turnout these days then if all the disenfranchised voted (and not for Tory or Labour) they could actually make a real difference (despite our fucked up voting system).
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Vote green!
:lol:
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thread title's fine - clear ref to something she said when a ship was sunk (not that I'd've wanted the Falklands to have had a different outcome, albeit that might've spared us the worst years of the ucking 80s).
A writer to the guardian said:
"Friend of Pinochet; enemy of Mandela"
Pretty much covers it really.
I was in Sheff during the miners' srike (which had Derbyshire been balloted might have had a different outcome) and in Westminster when she was bundled out of office for being an electoral liability and mad. I didn't celebrate then, as the Tories were still in power and this was an attempt to consolidate. And I'm not celebrating now. Same reason.
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Vote green!
That's what I always have done. (Though not for any loony-left associations the modern party is often accused of harbouring). Abstention is the only way you can truly waste your vote, and I find the apathy of the major parties toward green issues staggering.
What about those crowing over Maggie's death at the start of the thread?
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I abstain nowadays. Sad really.
Terribly sad as if you look at the ridiculously low turnout these days then if all the disenfranchised voted (and not for Tory or Labour) they could actually make a real difference (despite our fucked up voting system).
+1.
even the liberals have irrevocably damaged their standing as the protest vote - they've done more to keep themselves out of power than any political party has in the last 50 years,
This is a real shame I think - and entirely undeserved. They at least had the balls to get involved and at least try to moderate what might be the most right-wing government we've ever had. The fact we have a functioning current coalition is for me the only positive step politics has taken in my lifetime. Rather than what the Maggie-haters would no doubt wanted - forced a re-election which (IMHO) would only have given the Tories a proper majority. I've met Clegg, wasn't impressed with him, and didn't vote for him, but in our post-industrial society I think their core values are closest to most of us. Blaming them for the actions of the current government is the reaction of a retard as far as I'm concerned.
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Or the reaction of those brainwashed by the Tory supporting media. Would people really have preferred a coalition between the Tories and Sinn Fein? Cos that's what we would have had.
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There's no other dedicated thread to comment on this, so to logpile it seems silly.
Why not un-logpile it and change the title?
Don't you fucking dare!
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Somewhere in this thread, and I don't know who or where, suggested the "Rejoice!" comment was about the then Prime Ministers alleged comment after a warship had been sunk.
The then Prime Minister made the "Rejoice" comment after South Georgia had been liberated from the jackboot of Fascist tyranny*
Margaret Thatcher tells press to 'rejoice' during Falklands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGxsLbK9F0A#)
* I'm not joking about that bit - the Argentine junta were criminals - there can be no legitimate claim to these islands from anyone else but the United Kingdom or Germany - who were ejected by Force Majeure (sp?)
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And I re-iterate once again, at the time I started this thread, all I was doing was expressing my own joie de vivre, and, by extension, inviting all and sundry to join in my own personal happiness.
Any connection anyone may have made with news events is purely coincidental.
(I may have made other comments, via other social media fora that may have conveyed a different interpretation,but they would have reflected my opinions and mindset at the time I made those comments, and only at the time I made those comments.*)
(* I haven't changed my mind since then though)
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Why are so many people so happy at her demise?
From a distance it looks remarkably like the inverse of the hysteria over Princess Diane's death. Diane: pretty opinion-free simpering charming aristo. Thatcher: ugly uncomfortably-brainy spoke-her-mind lower-middle-class battleaxe. This article in Slate (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/04/margaret_thatcher_dies_why_i_and_many_other_brits_hated_the_iron_lady.html) comes close to nailing it IMO.
It's the complete and utter callous disregard she showed for the people crushed under the wheels of her monetarist engine, that she made no attempt whatsoever to visit anyone adversely affected by her policies, that she turned her back on anyone disenfranchised by her "grand vision", and she showed not a single ounce of simple human compassion for anyone reduced to penury and destitution by actions she personally undertook over which they themselves had no control.
And for that, if she does subscribe to Christian beliefs, I hope the bitch burns in the fires of Hell, and I for one celebrate the fact that she is dead.
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Why are so many people so happy at her demise?
From a distance it looks remarkably like the inverse of the hysteria over Princess Diane's death. Diane: pretty opinion-free simpering charming aristo. Thatcher: ugly uncomfortably-brainy spoke-her-mind lower-middle-class battleaxe. This article in Slate (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/04/margaret_thatcher_dies_why_i_and_many_other_brits_hated_the_iron_lady.html) comes close to nailing it IMO.
I agree with you about some public reaction. Waggons are being jumped on with great vigour, both left and right.
The article doesn't go beyond insinuating people's resentment is stoked by sexism and snobbery. In some cases that will be true, particularly Westminster. It's a canard though, to suggest the antipathy of many was born of silly and shallow motives. There are plenty of reasons of substance.
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I'm so glad I've been out of the UK since Tuesday and missed most of the media wank fest about this story. It's interesting to catch up via UKB...
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I keep wanting to say something.
But really, there was good and bad.
And, in the end, Foxy summed up my feelings better than I could.
http://www.fleetstreetfox.com/2013/04/emergency-n-requiring-immediate-action.html (http://www.fleetstreetfox.com/2013/04/emergency-n-requiring-immediate-action.html)
I'm voting for Largers.
After all, can't be worse than the current clowns...
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I abstain nowadays. Sad really.
Terribly sad as if you look at the ridiculously low turnout these days then if all the disenfranchised voted (and not for Tory or Labour) they could actually make a real difference (despite our fucked up voting system).
+1.
even the liberals have irrevocably damaged their standing as the protest vote - they've done more to keep themselves out of power than any political party has in the last 50 years,
This is a real shame I think - and entirely undeserved. They at least had the balls to get involved and at least try to moderate what might be the most right-wing government we've ever had. The fact we have a functioning current coalition is for me the only positive step politics has taken in my lifetime. Rather than what the Maggie-haters would no doubt wanted - forced a re-election which (IMHO) would only have given the Tories a proper majority. I've met Clegg, wasn't impressed with him, and didn't vote for him, but in our post-industrial society I think their core values are closest to most of us. Blaming them for the actions of the current government is the reaction of a retard as far as I'm concerned.
Going a bit :off: but just read an interesting article on voter choice.
Summary in Nature (http://www.nature.com/news/magic-trick-transforms-conservatives-into-liberals-1.12778)
Original Article on PLoS One Hall L, Strandberg T, Pärnamets P, Lind A, Tärning B, et al. (2013) How the Polls Can Be Both Spot On and Dead Wrong: Using Choice Blindness to Shift Political Attitudes and Voter Intentions. PLoS ONE 8(4): e60554. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0060554 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0060554)
Abstract
Political candidates often believe they must focus their campaign efforts on a small number of swing voters open for ideological change. Based on the wisdom of opinion polls, this might seem like a good idea. But do most voters really hold their political attitudes so firmly that they are unreceptive to persuasion? We tested this premise during the most recent general election in Sweden, in which a left- and a right-wing coalition were locked in a close race. We asked our participants to state their voter intention, and presented them with a political survey of wedge issues between the two coalitions. Using a sleight-of-hand we then altered their replies to place them in the opposite political camp, and invited them to reason about their attitudes on the manipulated issues. Finally, we summarized their survey score, and asked for their voter intention again. The results showed that no more than 22% of the manipulated replies were detected, and that a full 92% of the participants accepted and endorsed our altered political survey score. Furthermore, the final voter intention question indicated that as many as 48% (±9.2%) were willing to consider a left-right coalition shift. This can be contrasted with the established polls tracking the Swedish election, which registered maximally 10% voters open for a swing. Our results indicate that political attitudes and partisan divisions can be far more flexible than what is assumed by the polls, and that people can reason about the factual issues of the campaign with considerable openness to change.
Whether the same is true in the UK as Sweden is another matter though.
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This is a real shame I think - and entirely undeserved. They at least had the balls to get involved and at least try to moderate what might be the most right-wing government we've ever had. The fact we have a functioning current coalition is for me the only positive step politics has taken in my lifetime. Rather than what the Maggie-haters would no doubt wanted - forced a re-election which (IMHO) would only have given the Tories a proper majority. I've met Clegg, wasn't impressed with him, and didn't vote for him, but in our post-industrial society I think their core values are closest to most of us. Blaming them for the actions of the current government is the reaction of a retard as far as I'm concerned.
I wrote almost exactly the same thing yesterday and then deleted it as I get so depressed arguing the same point with otherwise intelligent, left wing types who have swallowed the lies hook line and sinker. Absolutely spot on JB.
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Whether the same is true in the UK as Sweden is another matter though.
In my experience Sweden has fewer retards.
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Absolutely spot on JB.
:agree:
Lib Dems took a risk to get a referendum on alternative voting. If that had swung in favour of "Yes" (and I dearly wish it had) then it would have changed political playing field completely (and for the better IMO).
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This is a real shame I think - and entirely undeserved. They at least had the balls to get involved and at least try to moderate what might be the most right-wing government we've ever had. The fact we have a functioning current coalition is for me the only positive step politics has taken in my lifetime. Rather than what the Maggie-haters would no doubt wanted - forced a re-election which (IMHO) would only have given the Tories a proper majority. I've met Clegg, wasn't impressed with him, and didn't vote for him, but in our post-industrial society I think their core values are closest to most of us. Blaming them for the actions of the current government is the reaction of a retard as far as I'm concerned.
I wrote almost exactly the same thing yesterday and then deleted it as I get so depressed arguing the same point with otherwise intelligent, left wing types who have swallowed the lies hook line and sinker. Absolutely spot on JB.
I think they've sold out and have very little credibility in my book. Part of this is probably muddled up in working out how to compromise with the Tory's and they've probably been taken advantage of to a degree to start with - a naivety if you like. Their standing on policies - and how they now stand up to the Tories is now much better IMHO -
But Clegg lost all of his credibility with me over how he handled himself with the tuition fees.
Blaming them for the actions of the current government is the reaction of a retard as far as I'm concerned.
First, retard is a bad word to use here or anywhere. Second - they are the present government. So saying they are not to blame is incorrect. They have voted with the Torys on the largest phase of privatisation of core govt services (largely by stealth) that has happened since the 1980's - schools, health, prisons, probation and more... I dread to think how we will look back on this period of government.
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I dread to think how we will look back on this period of government.
The same as every other....fucking shit?
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Anybody find it disturbing when Cameron praised Attlee for setting up the NHS in his speech?
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I think they've sold out and have very little credibility in my book.
FFS tomtom. If only politics were so basic. Have you any idea how fucked up things would be without the Lib Dems tempering the actions of the nasty party? The Tories themselves have admitted as much! Yours is the simplistic knee jerk reaction that most "staunch Labour" have taken such delight in making since the election. Never mind the facts, we've a scapegoat to kick. It's as bad as a Daily Mail headline or in fact worse as it comes from generally sensible left wingers, I despair.
And if you're going to start going on about how parties are whipped to vote a certain way and generally do so then how about this?
http://labourlist.org/2013/03/labours-perverse-inconsistency-on-the-work-programme/ (http://labourlist.org/2013/03/labours-perverse-inconsistency-on-the-work-programme/) etc etc etc etc
It's politics, it's a lot of bullshit, positioning, bargaining and if you're lucky (and that way inclined) managing occasionally to stand up for what you think is right. As slackers point shows, a lot of what the Lib Dems have attempted to stand up for is at least right. They were shafted by the Tories on that one and have been shafted by them at every opportunity. That was always going to happen but as dave said earlier, what was the other option?
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What Jasper said. 'They've sold out' is a ridiculous conclusion to make unless you can offer a better option they could have taken? Personally the 10K personal allowance will make a bigger difference to me than most tax tweaks.
Fair point about retard though.
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Off the top of my head JB, could not supporting the NHS bill (http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/07/11/clegg-could-have-killed-the-nhs-bill-chose-lords-reform-instead/) constitute a better option?
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There's no other dedicated thread to comment on this, so to logpile it seems silly.
Why not un-logpile it and change the title?
"Pretty much exclusively for Maggie?" ;)
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Off the top of my head JB, could not supporting the NHS bill (http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/07/11/clegg-could-have-killed-the-nhs-bill-chose-lords-reform-instead/) constitute a better option?
But didn't the House of Lords have the power (if not the will) to block the NHS bill?
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Off the top of my head JB, could not supporting the NHS bill (http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/07/11/clegg-could-have-killed-the-nhs-bill-chose-lords-reform-instead/) constitute a better option?
Sure, though I was meaning in more general terms of them forming a coalition.
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Off the top of my head JB, could not supporting the NHS bill (http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/07/11/clegg-could-have-killed-the-nhs-bill-chose-lords-reform-instead/) constitute a better option?
But didn't the House of Lords have the power (if not the will) to block the NHS bill?
Simple answer? No.
The H of L can only return a bill to the Commons (for amendment), and then only so many times (3?). They cannot make or quash a law.
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The H of L can only return a bill to the Commons (for amendment), and then only so many times (3?). They cannot make or quash a law.
Fair-do's, I'm not too hot on the subtleties, but recalled at the time a campaign to drum up support in the House of Lords to have things stopped (or more likely drastically changed).
This is rather good...
Glenda Jackson launches tirade against Thatcher in tribute debate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8#ws)
Great putdown of that Baldry MP by Bercow at the end :clap2:
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Hard to write a full reply - airports, phone etc.. But,
Of course the lib Dems have tempered the Tory govt, that is a good thing. But I think they've caved in too easily on too many things. Maybe this was in a naive belief there was some sort of quid pro quo with the nasty party... Part of the learning curve for them.
But they've still compromised nay reversed on some of the things they staunchly campaigned on in the election. So for me they're bust. They offered a fresh alternative to the two parties at the election, but went on to show they were just as capable of lying and changing direction as the others...
Lib Lab coalition for the next govt is my prediction...
Though thinking about politics makes me feel nauseous at the moment - it's been nice to be out of the country while (I suspect) the news has been full of Thatcher things and the various parties engaged in some sort of giant 'we love politics' wanking circle.
Yours sincerely, Angry from Munich Airport ;)
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#Cans
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But they've still compromised nay reversed on some of the things they staunchly campaigned on in the election. They offered a fresh alternative to the two parties at the election, but went on to show they were just as capable of lying and changing direction as the others...
Do you think they would have had the support they needed from the tories for a referendum if they hadn't done this?
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That's interesting. The Torys played that one cleverly - 'condoning' rather than supporting a referendum then campaigning against it hard. Anyway, time to buckle up, switch off and take off..
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Glenda Jackson launches tirade against Thatcher in tribute debate
GJ for PM!
(sorry lagers)
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Frank Turner -03- Thatcher Fucked The Kids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjfSucUhJiQ#)
posting in the naughty thread.
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It's noticeable on this, and other forums I've read, how people who were not around when Thatcher was in power judge her a lot less harshly. I guess the issue is whether you think the end justified the means. If you weren't around to witness the means then you are left just looking dispassionately at the ends. 20 - 30 years down the line a lot of those policies do not seem that bad but I maintain a deep dislike of the woman because I remember the nasty, vindictive, gleeful way her and her party went about implementing them. The end of the coal industry could have been managed better but instead she stockpiled coal and forced the miners into a corner. Scargill didn't really help himself but what he predicted all came true dispite the media portrayal of him as a raving loon. As I get older I'm becoming more right leaning but I'm sick of the revisionism that's going on, some of her policies turned out well in the end but that's only part of the story; *you* might be reaping the benefits of her policies now but a lot of people before you will have swallowed an awful lot of unpleasant medicine to enable you to get to that point.
And whilst we might all think the unions needed bringing to heel, how far away are we from the pendulum having swung too far the other way? Look at the difference in terms and conditions for employees of unionised and non-unionised industries. I work many hours above my contracted ones, I could get sacked tomorrow with nothing but a statutory minimum, I've not had a pay rise in years apart from when I moved jobs. This is all ok as I'm in a 'good' job and it's the deal I've entered into. However these same terms apply to someone working in a food processing factory on a minimum wage.
Incidentally, this forum is setting a very high bar if the sort of debate I've read on this thread is worthy of the log pile. Perhaps I should check out some of the other threads,they must be really good.....
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Frank Turner -03- Thatcher Fucked The Kids
Oof, I bet Frank had a real hard time of it with Thatcher, what with having an investment banker for a Dad and going to Eton.
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How do you know all this? Did he holiday in Abersoch too?
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Sadly not. I got quite into his stuff last year and read his Wikipedia entry; it really is that simple. From his website:
Why don’t you play “Thatcher Fucked The Kids” any more?
I got bored of the song, and more specifically, I got bored of the tedious political associations that came with it. I won’t be playing it again. Sorry. Feel free to reclaim it yourself.
What are your politics? Are you a protest singer?
Nope, no protest singing from here. I suppose I could be called a libertarian, though I prefer “classical liberal” as a label, if I have to have one. I am not a socialist. More pointedly, I’m not an activist, not trying to promulgate a message or change anyone’s mind. I prefer to leave that stuff at the door these days. Politics is divisive, by definition; I try to make music that is inclusive.[\quote]
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I don't think this is logpile material. Thatcher is the person who had the single biggest influence on UK climbing in the last 50 years in my view.
Playing the System by Paul Pritchard (October 2010) (http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3020)
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How do you know all this? Did he holiday in Abersoch too?
:lol:
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*you* might be reaping the benefits of her policies now
Yes, I'm thriving on the consequences of unrestrained market forces producing the most buoyant economy we've ever enjoyed. :wall: :wall:
I doubt there's many who post/read here who have the sort of income which would qualify them as unambiguous beneficiaries of these policies, with the exception of anyone who bought a council home, that's a clear winner for the buyer if not society as a whole.
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Incidentally, this forum is setting a very high bar if the sort of debate I've read on this thread is worthy of the log pile. Perhaps I should check out some of the other threads,they must be really good.....
:lol: :agree:
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Margaret Thatcher is dead. But someone has reinvented her life (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/14/thatcher-is-dead-but-who-reinvented-her-life) by Stewart Lee
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Margaret Thatcher is dead. But someone has reinvented her life (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/14/thatcher-is-dead-but-who-reinvented-her-life) by Stewart Lee
Genius as always.
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"Just watched Return Of The Jedi. Disgusted by the distasteful scenes at the end where everyone is celebrating the death of Emperor Palpatine. He may have been divisive, but he was strong and he made decisions and stuck to them, and I think he should get a bit of respect. He was, after all, a little old man who died, when you remove any other context whatsoever." - Joe Hillstrom
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It's the economy, stupid. (http://www.primeeconomics.org/?p=1707)
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"Just watched Return Of The Jedi. Disgusted by the distasteful scenes at the end where everyone is celebrating the death of Emperor Palpatine. He may have been divisive, but he was strong and he made decisions and stuck to them, and I think he should get a bit of respect. He was, after all, a little old man who died, when you remove any other context whatsoever." - Joe Hillstrom
spot on.
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It's the economy, stupid. (http://www.primeeconomics.org/?p=1707)
Very interesting.
Bit more thinking and reading for me then, since I thought something completely different.
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Not mentioned much elsewhere (http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/04/14/thatchers-homophobia-why-have-we-glossed-over-this-legacy/)
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Not mentioned much elsewhere (http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/04/14/thatchers-homophobia-why-have-we-glossed-over-this-legacy/)
Has support of Apartheid been mentioned?
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Apartheid has been mentioned in many of the pieces I've read, but that was the first mention of homophobia I've come across in this context.
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It's the economy, stupid. (http://www.primeeconomics.org/?p=1707)
Very interesting.
Bit more thinking and reading for me then, since I thought something completely different.
This is the most balanced review I've read so far:
New Yorker: for and against thatcherism (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/04/the-case-for-and-against-thatcherism.html)
(Comments are well worth reading too. Not noticed such a high standard on a Uk paper)
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Good find, thanks.
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Nice article JB - though does not seem to take into account how the UK had all that income from N.Sea Oil that Germany didnt... but a good read - thanks.
In a tutorial today - I was chatting to a bunch of second years for ten min or so about Thatcher - mostly they were indifferent, their main points were about how daft it was for 20yr old protesters to be celebrating her death in the street (a fair point) and why the populus should be paying for the funeral etc..
I rambled on a bit about being a teenager during the thatcher years and the miners strike etc.. about dividing the country, north south split etc.. then recounting witnessing the poll tax riots - I then talked about how many people I knew wished (at the time) that she had died in the Brighton bombing (many many did IIRC..)... I then stopped and looked - and they were all looking quite aghast at me!
I'll get me donkey jacket...
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does not seem to take into account how the UK had all that income from N.Sea Oil
Addressed in the comments I think - as is the bald assertion early on that Cameron et al dare not touch the NHS...
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JB, that is a good article, and I realise it is focussed upon her economic legacy, but on the charge sheet against her I would put the creation of an entrenched criminal underclass.
She turned her back on many people in the north, leaving communities jobless and desolate. Into that vacuum walked heroin and later crack (maybe she was proud of the entrepeneurial spirit shown by the dealers and gangsters?). The damage that caused to those communities and the individuals caught up in it is immense, but worst of all that criminal underclass has remained entrenched.
Thatcher always talked about looking after "our people" and built her policies to favour that select part of society - I wonder what those same people thought when their nice house got burgled by a desperate smackhead on an acquisitional rampage? (Actually, I can well imagine what they thought.)
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Sure. I didn't post it in her defence; whatever pigeonhole folk may now have placed me in...
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some data - main impact was on manufacturing, strikes and unemploment...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret-thatcher-charts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret-thatcher-charts)
...and a picture from today, just before the sexy dancing penguins did their tap number down the aisle. I'm afraid my personal reaction to these people tends to the visceral and instinctive.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIDAC2GCMAEMRo2.jpg:large)
(So no, not rational - like some people's reactions I never understood to Cherie Blair.)