UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Duma on November 19, 2014, 08:23:09 am
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https://www.facebook.com/# (https://www.facebook.com/#)!/180070212030430/photos/a.230368410333943.51059.180070212030430/775662135804565/?type=1&theater
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Not sure what's happened to that link?
EDIT - There you go:
https://www.facebook.com/180070212030430/photos/a.230368410333943.51059.180070212030430/775662135804565 (https://www.facebook.com/180070212030430/photos/a.230368410333943.51059.180070212030430/775662135804565)
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Oh and wow etc. :bow:
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yep can't think of anything better than WOW. Does this mean it's done or do they have to now start from the bottom and do it in a push? Think we'll need this guy
if when that happens
(http://www.otf2.com/wiki/images/4/45/Kriss.jpg)
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Or even this
(http://i.giphy.com/ayMCeG4mbMhq.gif)
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This thing is astonishing. A real step change for the cutting edge of free climbing. Too late for a redders this year?
In recent years I kinda get the sense that the definition of big walling is percolating ever downward into pretty much standard multi pitch cragging. Its funny that some of these euro lime "big walls" with one nails pitch low down and 6b to the top type affairs are "8c big walls" and so is this, but the difference in actual difficulty is clearly orders of magnitude apart. Loads of 8c techy granite pitches stacked atop each other...ridiculous.
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And by 8c it would appear I mean 9a. Never any good at the yds>french conversion.
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What's also interesting is how ascents that perhaps once would have remained for years cutting-edge are now, as soon as the ink has dried on the facebook page, viewed as an obvious flash-attempt carrot for a breed of uber climbers. The accelerating effect of the information age... I'm talking about the anticipation of the likes of Ondra, Megos and whoever else emerges from the mutant wad-swamp attempting things like Dawn Wall, on their path to total mastery of climbing.
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Wogü in Rätikon is generally considered the hardest multi pitch free climb in the alps, no? “Only” 8c, 7c+, 8b+/8c, 8b, 8b+, 8a+, and 7c+. Still it has only one (!) one-push ascent.
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This thing is astonishing. A real step change for the cutting edge of free climbing. Too late for a redders this year?
UKC says they are going for it in December.
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I love all this obviously. The Dawn Wall / Mescalito area is such an amazing bit of rock. I've been up there - in hammocks - half a lifetime ago and it's so cool it's becoming a free route now.
To put this in context, there are, broadly speaking, two groups of El Cap. free routes.
The 5.13 (7c+/8a/8a+) routes with double-digit number of ascents: Freerider, Golden Gate, El Corazon, and - a bit harder - El Nino and Salathe. These get regular ascents.
The 5.13+/5.14- (8b/8b+) routes with one or few ascents: PreMuir, Zodiac, Dihedral Wall, Lurking Fear (no second ascent, a likely sandbag at 13c) and Magic Mushroom. The Nose probably fits here, it’s had very few free ascents considering it’s status and history. "Significant repeats" if they get done.
In the future there will be a group of 5.14 (8c/8c+) routes, the lines are there, not climbed yet.
Then there is Dawn Wall with multiple 5.14+ (9a) pitches, so well beyond anything done to date.
Hope the weather holds into December for them.
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Is this classed as done now or does it have to be done bottom to top in a single push before its classed as ticked.
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If I read it correctly neither of the projecteers has done all the hard pitches. So, on this hypothetical continuous push, does one climber have to lead all the pitches or are alternate leads ok?
By British trad rules as I always understood them, alternate leads would be completely valid, but the second would have to climb the pitches too and not jumar. American big wall rules seem to be different and more complicated.
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Anything goes really. Tactics used for free ascents in increasing order of difficulty: Switching leads-second jumar, Switching leads-second follows free sometimes/jumar sometimes, Dedicated leader - second jumar everything, Switching leads-second follow free on every pitch, Free solo.
Generally I'm totally indifferent to news about climbers trying but not succeeding on routes, but here the news is at least about free climbing individual pitches. (Quality writing about attempts is of course something else entirely, quality writing about sport is a rare beast and always appreciated)
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Free solo.
Having seen the video of The Sideways Dyno (not to mention The Other Sideways Dyno) I'm going to hazard a guess of "not applicable" for this option.
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They're making a from the bottom attempt at the moment and have done the first ten pitches. Would be amazing to see them succeed, though I'm not holding my breath!
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They are on the crux 9a/5.14+ pitches today.
As part of the media blitz Adidas outdoors have paid Tom Evans to be there. I hope it's more than just cans of 'Old English', he must be freezing his ass off down in the trees.
Tom Evans website (http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-12292014-special-dawn-wall-edition-day-3)
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I have all my fingers and toes crossed for them. What an incredibly thing to pull off.
Tom Evans writes that they have lines fixed to the floor and somebody is jugging up with fresh water. I'm interested in what this does to the legitimacy of the ascent in the eyes of the big walling community. Surely if all the pitches have been done and they are supported from the ground with supplies, then in theory they could stay up there indefinitely (or until storms/cabin fever force them down) and siege it into submission? Obviously its still very very difficult indeed because of the standard of the climbing.
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I have to say, even though i'm mightily impressed with the whole saga which i've been following now for years, the 'tactics' seem to be pushing the limits as much as the climbing.
I mean, they are using pre-fixed ropes to move up and down the wall, past pitches that they still have not climbed in this push and practicing moves from above, 'camping' above their high point, with a support team bringing them food and water and generally keeping them stocked up sort of in classic Colonial Himalayan style, and in today's report on the first pitch apparently Tommy led through and then lowered back to the ledge from where he gave a top rope to Kevin. :shrug:
I know is the hardest route ever, logistics are complicated and all that, but it does seem that they are just doing single pitch cragging with the difference that instead of lowering to the ground or topping out in between routes they lower or ascend pre-fixed ropes to pre-stocked camps...
Is it the case that as far as you climb all pitches in succession without touching the floor then anything goes? No need to, you know, start from the bottom and move upwards?
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Ninjaed by Will Hunt :chair:
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'camping' above their high point
I believe this is standard tactics for Salathe free ascents unless doing it in a day as there's a bivi spot above the headwall pitch, so it's hardly a new thing for el cap.
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abarro81, for a brief moment I thought you had made international headlines.
(http://i.imgur.com/gGUUa3X.png)
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They've done the hardest pitch (on this push I mean). Might this thing actually be on?
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Interesting to see KJ is wearing La Sportiva TC Pros, wonder if he's changed sponsor or they were the only thing suitable? (FB photo may not link)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10888692_425206760966392_5618888791316532831_n.jpg?oh=0f808a720af273acfd0ab94ccf5103e4&oe=5544072D&__gda__=1429239537_b0ba3f9b223c669c8a373521ccb6168d)
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I don't blame them for stacking everything in their favour on something as futuristic as this. They've shown unprecedented levels of commitment to creating by far the hardest big wall ever. I think it's a bit harsh to be nit picking because they're using fixed lines to their advantage.
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I agree, especially as this push seems to be going pretty quickly so far.
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They could easily have had a third member of the team to just do all the jugging and hauling, so I really don't see the problem with other people helping them with the legwork. It's not like they're chipping holds is it?
It's great, it really is.
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On the support team thing, that's also been done before - e.g. Steph Davis on Salathe where her partner jugged out to go get more food and water for her as they ran out whilst she was sturggling to RP the headwall, then abbed back in from the top with it. I think pretty much anything goes in terms of logistics.
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I hope they're going to brush their donkey tick marks off afterwards... #hallofshame :P
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10888692_425206760966392_5618888791316532831_n.jpg?oh=0f808a720af273acfd0ab94ccf5103e4&oe=5544072D&__gda__=1429239537_b0ba3f9b223c669c8a373521ccb6168d)
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Nitpicking... I think it's more a case of publicly showing my ignorance in Yosemite logistics and ethics :whistle: No intention on taking anything away from them, this is one of the most deserved ascents ever with mahoosive amounts of effort and time put into it.
Just that those tactics seem 'weird' from the comfort of my armchair while sporting a total score of fuck-all experience in Yosemite climbing :popcorn:
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Amazing stuff! I reckon in a lot of ways the ethics of this are spot on - as so much of it is recorded each day (what happened, how, by who etc) they are being incredibly honest about how it was done. If anyone want to do better then they know exactly how! ;)
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:agree: Yeah this. When all the tricks and logistical aids are out in the open I think it sets the style bar clearly positioned for future wads to aspire to raise it - i.e. a self-contained team, no fixed ropes, climbing each pitch clean in sequence from the ground up - so no going past a pitch to camp out, before you've led it clean - is the gold standard to aspire to (onsight or flash is obviously the real gold standard, but that's probably a decade or three down the line on this route).
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I suppose the very honest approach to this attempt is making the tactics all the more visible (and not detracting from the ascent I don't think). It does highlight how arbitrary big wall free climbing styles are when it comes to redpointing stuff over any significant timescale. Although with a constant camp supply, and sleeping above where you've climbed to it does seem odd that it isn't regarded as done until the pitches are climbed in the correct order.
I guess these things have to be viewed as "proof of concept", they're setting the bar and showing this can be done, will anyone even equal it? I can't believe the perseverance and self belief these guys must have had to stick at the project this whole time. I'm excited for them if they do it!
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I hope they're going to brush their donkey tick marks off afterwards... #hallofshame :P
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10888692_425206760966392_5618888791316532831_n.jpg?oh=0f808a720af273acfd0ab94ccf5103e4&oe=5544072D&__gda__=1429239537_b0ba3f9b223c669c8a373521ccb6168d)
I'm genuinely inspired by this. I'll eat my shorts if anyone onsights this, in three decades, or three hundred years. It'll never happen. I would, however, condone tick marking el cap from top to bottom to see Ondra and Megos give it their best ground up effort.
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Shoot me down in flames, but I think it is a shame to resort to tactics that do detract from the purity of ascent, where it would seem - logistically at least - easy to do otherwise. I don't think one's views are easily discounted simply because you're not familiar with big wall climbing or Yosemite ethics.
Neither does having so much media coverage make their approach some how more ethical. Though, yes, it does make the tactics used transparent. Is that a benefit? It can work both ways, either setting a precedent, or encouraging improvement.
I suppose you can view this attempt in two ways (amongst many others of course). As a concept - the route in and of itself, or in context - i.e. a major part of the challenge is that the route does go up a huge cliff.
In the first case of course, many more tactics - such as camping above your high-point - are consistent with the goal. One personal gripe is the use of tick marks "pre-placed"; would be fine for getting things wired, but a shame they're still there for the ascent. In this case - as a concept - you could visualise the route as a ground level traverse - all that matters is climbing one pitch after the other.
Then of course, we have the route in context. In this case, approaching everything from below would seem to make sense.
Some particularly personal views of my own are that abbing to the ground is fine. Just don't do anything that would have involved prior access to the top of the route - like pre-placing ropes, gear, tick-marks etc.
As far as "just" doing the pitches in sequence is concerned, I suppose the journey is arriving at the point where that approach is viable. Having the courage and vision to commit to the project.
Surely, any criticism is warranted. We all like to be able to relate to what others do on the rock, and a style more consistent with our own personal ethic is always more inspiring.
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Cool post.
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Did anyone tweet Kevin re tactics when he was doing a q and a last night (our time)? I'm not on twitter so not sure how it works but #Askdawnwall, and apparently nothing off the table?
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The Twitter questioning was mostly pretty innocuous "what's your favourite mythical creature". Jorgeson was very clear about what represented "a send": one climber (ideally both) must climb every pitch without falls, no skipping pitches or returning to the ground at any point. This means redpointing each pitch, not doing the whole climb without a fall "@kjorgeson: The chances of doing that, on this style granite, on this route, for where climbing standards are now = ~0%". This is Alex Huber's definition, more rigorous than the more traditional 'team free' where someone in the team climbs each pitch, typically alternating leads. He was also pretty confident that the route wouldn't be repeated in a day any time soon!
Assuming it does go', how long before a second ascent I wonder? As with The Salathe, my money is we will wait a few years before an awesomely strong, talented, professional and tenacious European sports-climber takes the time to master the intricacies of Yosemite granite.
I agree the fixed ropes and Sherpas feels a bit wrong but I suspect they are as much for the benefit of the media extravaganza and don't materially benefit Jorgeson and Caldwell a great deal. Going capsule style, with two lead climbers and two freight handlers wouldn't be any harder. The hauling is pretty easy on that part of El Cap. and the planned two weeks means the loads would not be absurd with a good 3:1 set-up.
I'm enjoying the parallels with Harding's original Wall of Early Morning Light ascent: the protracted siege, ethical controversies, and media frenzy calculatedly cultivated by the protagonists. Only the high-profile sponsor has changed: from Christian Brothers winery to Adidas outdoors!
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Hi.
Some of this seems bizarre to me. An exciting project, and an exiting concept, but I find some of the "fudging" quite painful - and a lot of that is coming from us (?), in our attempts at making clear and consistent sense of the whole.
"I agree the fixed ropes and sherpas.." ..with whom? .."no.. returning to the ground at any point" - but having a base above your high point is OK, along with others to go to/from the ground/top for you?
I'm someone who finds muddy water a little difficult to deal with at times, but I have a feeling we all find it easier when we know just what we're talking about/dealing with - more than anything, so that we know how, when and what to celebrate.
In a way, staying on the wall - in the circumstances - seems a contrivance, maybe to make things seem one way to the media, when they aren't quite. Is "Going capsule style.. with two freight ("No! I said I want cold beers! Go down and get me some more..") handlers" really capsule style?
It feels to me that we're missing out a few ethical steps here. Thinking about the redpoint ethic, we accept it, not because it's good style, but because we've chosen it as the lowest definable, acceptable categorisation of ascent. We know where we are with it, and where we go from there.
I'm still not really with the "don't go to the ground thing" - especially when anything else goes. Is it OK to lower a site hut into position - maybe with a shower and TV? Err.. why not.
You see, I'm not saying things shouldn't be done this way.. any excuse for creature comforts, yes please.
Is the next available improvement - assuming it "goes" already - to be measured in the usual terms of speed, number of pitches flashed, falls, first no swinging leads etc. Maybe other apparent improvement in style - capsule, no other support etc - occurs as a result of other improvement in ability/efficiency, rather than because it "should" be done that way?
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More info on the climbing here :
http://eveningsends.com/climbing/like-dawn-tommy-caldwell-kevin-jorgeson/ (http://eveningsends.com/climbing/like-dawn-tommy-caldwell-kevin-jorgeson/)
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Tommy sent pitch 15 (5.14d) according to Facebook. Kevin hadn't at the time.
Its getting closest now...
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Whose FB? If so then there's only one more 5.14 pitch remaining. Amazing!
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Oops, forgot this link. Some page called Corey Rich Productions.
https://www.facebook.com/Corey.Rich.Productions/posts/940799295938409:0 (https://www.facebook.com/Corey.Rich.Productions/posts/940799295938409:0)
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Not sure what happened since though. Wonder what'll happen if Kevin doesn't get it?
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Some of this seems bizarre to me. An exciting project, and an exiting concept, but I find some of the "fudging" quite painful - and a lot of that is coming from us (?), in our attempts at making clear and consistent sense of the whole.
I'm guessing that after several years trying this wall they will have settled on a style thats the best they can realistically hope for whilst still having a good enough chance of success to justify investing more time. This will necessarily involve a fudge of some sort and the fudges they will have settled on will likely be dependant on a whole host of factors - what they'd ideally like, what they feel they would be satisfied with, what they will get the least criticism for in the post match analysis, what they have the remaining psyche for and so on. Some choices will undoubtedly be individual to the route and without going on it at all, never mind for weeks on end in freezing conditions, it's probably hard to rationalise all the choices they have made. Tommy has never previously backed down from going harder and longer on El Cap and is the most experienced person on the planet at that style of climbing and environment. I'd trust his judgement.
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From Tommy's facebook:
One step closer! I sent pitch 15 last night. Keven got oh so close several times. I am sure he could have done it if he didn't have to tape two key fingers. Weather it's getting hard to sleep forecast looks splitter! It's getting hard to sleep due to the excitement I feel. Photo @brettlowell taken form the most exposed spot on the planet.
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Thanks James. According to the eveningsends rundown that leaves 14a, 13c and 13d and then 5.11 and 12 to the top - I think they're going to do it. I would never have expected that when they started out last week.
I'm sure they must be pushing to make the style the best they can, freeing every pitch in a single push that has so far taken only a week or so, up on the wall in the depths of winter. Caldwell in particular has surely invested too much in this over too many years to risk taking short cuts on the actual climbing.The logistical support doesn't seem OTT all things considered.
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Ha, ha! This climb attempt has gone so 'mainstream' that they even get streakers invading the pitch. Awesome :lol:
http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-132015-special-dawn-wall-edition-day-8 (http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-132015-special-dawn-wall-edition-day-8)
(http://www.elcapreport.com/sites/default/files/3%29%20%20ACIMG_2277.JPG)
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The logistical support doesn't seem OTT all things considered.
No it doesn't. People who are questioning this aspect should remember there's two 9a pitches on it! It's hard to comprehend .
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In reply to Ru.
Hi there. I think the criticisms are entirely valid, though readily misinterpreted - mostly concerning "let's be clear about what is going on here", and what isn't. Less about what is valid and what isn't.
As I said in my post, and what I've tried to allude to, is that by not making a valid critique - for instance, just accepting others' judgement (something I prefer not to do) - we're doing as much fudging as anyone.
It's a chosen style - and possibly a more established one than many of us who haven't climbed on "The Big Stone" may appreciate. However, there can be a lot of hyperbole, media hype, and not a little contrivance, for the benefit of a good story.
Just out of interest, on hard aid pitches, it sounds as though (was talking to Fatdoc earlier - hi, good to see you!) abbing to the ground is accepted. As it would be here.
It would seem that staying on the wall is of no great significance - from an ethical perspective - and possibly chosen because of the media coverage, sponsor support etc.
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As a non-big walling observer I'd say staying on the wall is pretty significant. Descending to the ground at random intervals would surely be a bigger gripe than any of the tactics that they are currently employing and surely detrimental to the whole ethos of the thing. :shrug:
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:agree: If coming down is OK then you could argue that they've done it already.
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Agreed as well. Despite the impressive logistics setup I don't think sleeping/recovering on the wall is the same as coming down and spending a couple of nights in a hotel.
Anyway, if they do it (looking more and more likely) IMO this really is one of the most impressive climbing feats in recent years irrespective of the discussion s around tactics.
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I dunno Dave, not returning to the ground seems like a fairly big deal to me. They mention that not being able to walk about is one of the hardest things to deal with during such a protracted siege. This is obviously an abstraction, but on a climb this big, complex and consistently demanding any 'ascent' in any style is going to be an abstraction. I mean, Tommy spent a couple of years messing about on an ab line trying to find a way through the blankness. This is essentially a giant redpoint, and I don't imagine it'll ever be anything but that, unless 9c is the norm in 30 years. Maybe they said the same when the nose was first sieged, but the difference today is that we're seeing some definite saturation of physical standards (I think anyway).
As such, any comparisons to the idealised alpine style rock up and have-at-it approach are meaningless, imo.
EDIT: :agree:
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It's an interesting one though isn't it? And more so, because of some difference of opinion.
There are aspects of the style of ascent which I find disappointing - the fact that it isn't sponsored by a cider company being one! - but I think that's a good thing.
Not coming down will add pressure, so, yes, maybe chosen for that reason. Otherwise, in theory, you could leave it two years between attempts at the crux pitch. As you could of course, if you were equipped with a site hut, bar, jacuzzi.. (what I'd want) I'm not sure if it makes a critical difference, valid/not valid.
How did Leo approach the prophet? I'll have a look anyway. I'm presuming the harder aid routes were established "ground up" irrespective of return to ground?
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:agree: If coming down is OK then you could argue that they've done it already.
Aha! Yes, that's my question.
Was each part worked, solved in sequence?
If so, then I'd argue too, that something valid has possibly been established already. In that context, we can see that what they are doing is an improvement, though with inherent contrivance.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about abstraction, whether in climbing, mathematics say, or our conception of words and things. I think we can find ourselves thinking that we're talking about one thing, and find that there's less of substance there than we think.
Where do we really find the critical difference? I suppose I'm asking this, because I'm likely to ask "what can I get away with?" - to push the boundaries as far as possible (don't we all?), and remain within defined limits of what is still valid.
Interesting stuff. By the way, I'm in favour of yo-yo-ing, and not pulling ropes on trad routes. And better porta-ledges ;D
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For what it's worth, I think that staying on the wall does make a very big difference. They cannot be up there forever (especially in winter, even if well supplied) - all the time they are getting more tired, stiffer, mentally pressured and, perhaps critically, their skin is getting trashed - and despite all the prep over the years and the logistics now they are doing what we all try and do: an ascent that starts at the bottom and goes to the top in a single sustained push. Sure, all the pitches have been previously freed but what they are doing now is so, so much more demanding - not an abstraction of little substance. Imagine red pointing a 9a 14 pitches up knowing that you have another to do the next day and that if you don't do it everything that has gone before counts for nothing?
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I agree... I've not been following closely, but, at the end of the day, they are two climbers at the top of their game climbing the hardest set of pitches ever in one go on the most iconic wall in the world and making everything very transparent and as ethical as can be under the circumstances.
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Was each part worked, solved in sequence?
If by worked and solved you ultimately mean redpointed then presumably not, given that the last pitch to be redpointed (in November sometime?) was one of the crux 9a pitches right in the middle of the route.
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I've spent a lot of time thinking about abstraction, whether in climbing, mathematics say, or our conception of words and things. I think we can find ourselves thinking that we're talking about one thing, and find that there's less of substance there than we think.
Where do we really find the critical difference? I suppose I'm asking this, because I'm likely to ask "what can I get away with?" - to push the boundaries as far as possible (don't we all?), and remain within defined limits of what is still valid.
I'm thinking about the dialectical necessity of morality (and climbing ethics) providing some guidance here
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What FD said.
Dave, what Leo wanted to do with the Prophet was establish a free big wall ground up. It didn't work out in the end, but they gave it a damn good go. I suspect it was at least partly in response to the quirks of Yosemite free-wall ethics.
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Quite some misinterpretation of my post here I think.
I'm trying to look behind some of the "gosh, look at that, isn't it amazing!". Though admittedly it's bloody hard.
I remember watching Ben on the FA of Zeke years ago, and thinking, yeah, OK, really, really good effort, but it doesn't really seem that hard to me - imagining where things could go in the future.
Sometimes, when we really break things down, they're found to be somehow a little less outrageous, or just perhaps a little different to what we thought.
What do we call it? No one is saying that what KJ and TC are doing isn't bloody difficult! I find it important to try to understand what we can call something, and what we can't, if anything, so that we can better know where we go from here.
If Sharma subsequently tried the route ground up, but periodically returned to the ground, would he have a claim to a repeat? How would it stack up?
This is the sort of thing I'm thinking about.
I'd say he does. What do other people think? What impact does the current style have on future claims? ..
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what are you trying to say tho Dave, that this isn't as impressive as most people think or that you don't think it'll be that impressive in the future?
I would say the current style is probably as good as you can get while still been able to get to the top
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This thread has confused me a lot about big walls. I knew nothing but expected someone to start at the bottom and do each pitch in logical order to the top, sleeping in a portaledge along the way. Ie if you stop at pitch 19 you sleep at pitch 19. I now know I know less than nothing.
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I'm mightily impressed, some of the footage off Progression (I think?) of the slab pitch was immense.
Surprised and a bit let down they've skipped the dyno pitch as this was surely one of the coolest (and hardest at 9a?) pitches and the bit everyone watching from the media loved.
For clarity, as I don't think I fully understand it, in this attempt is at least one of them - or indeed both of them except Kevin on pitch 15 - doing each pitch in one go cleanly? Or is it one massive link of redpoints?
Give it another year and I imagine Ondra will piss up it in a day, Ueili Steck will run up it on 17 minutes and Honnald will solo it including the dyno.
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Since they are not hauling the food and water themselves, insisting on staying on the wall is surely just for media interest, no?
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I'm a bit confused as to whether they're doing it as individuals or as a team - it's sorta difficult trying to work it out from twitter. Will KJ still have to get the pitch were his finger tape got a flapper? It'll all get written up after no doubt but one thing's for sure... it can be done in a better style at some point in the future.
That's maybe a good thing.
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They're both trying to free every pitch. Thus far TC has done so up to and including no. 15, KJ not done 15 yet. If one of them does every pitch it will count, but obviously it's nicer if they both do every pitch. Sounds like they both lead on the harder pitch, but just swing leads on the easier ones.
Since they are not hauling the food and water themselves, insisting on staying on the wall is surely just for media interest, no?
I doubt it. I can't imagine that being on the wall is the same as recovering on the floor, in the same way that an awkward no-hander isn't the same as sitting on the floor on a sport route - notionally you recover to zero but in reality you don't. I think the big deal with staying on the wall is that it realistically rules out 'single push' ascents that are in fact multi-month or multi-season affairs, as even with 'porters' you're going to be limited in some ways.
For clarity, as I don't think I fully understand it, in this attempt is at least one of them - or indeed both of them except Kevin on pitch 15 - doing each pitch in one go cleanly? Or is it one massive link of redpoints?
I don't understand the question - They're both trying to free every pitch, but it's a big link of redpoints i.e. if they fall on pitch 15, they just start from the belay again, they don't have to go down and do a full single-push-with-no-falls ascent, which would be hardcore as hell.
(What's the hardest big wall to have a single-push-no-falls ascent? Has the nose been done like that?)
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They're both trying to free every pitch. Thus far TC has done so up to and including no. 15, KJ not done 15 yet. If one of them does every pitch it will count, but obviously it's nicer if they both do every pitch. Sounds like they both lead on the harder pitch, but just swing leads on the easier ones.
Thanks Alex.
(What's the hardest big wall to have a single-push-no-falls ascent? Has the nose been done like that?)
In my naivety, that's what I originally thought they were going to attempt to do - hence all the years of pre-practice :shrug:
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Sure it is harder to sleep on the wall, but then again so is sleeping in a tent rather then in a hotel.
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They're both trying to free every pitch. Thus far TC has done so up to and including no. 15, KJ not done 15 yet. If one of them does every pitch it will count, but obviously it's nicer if they both do every pitch. Sounds like they both lead on the harder pitch, but just swing leads on the easier ones.
:slap:
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At first the main aspect that I felt was a bit off was them being supplied by people from the ground - this got me thinking...
If, say, they had a team of four, two leaders (KJ and TC) and two helpers who did all the logistics, hauling, cooking, filming, massage etc ;-) and no-one went to the ground. I would not even question this style. Everyone has helped the team effort, no-one has gone to the ground.
Then I started thinking more about it and realised that these two helpers, while getting bored, would not get over fatigued by this. Their involvement wouldn't affect the efforts of the climbers much, whether they were there every minute, or zipping down to the ground. Either way they would be there to keep the climbers stocked, fed, watered. So, does it really change the ascent much if they don't stay up there? It's a grey area.
Another area I am not totally convinced about is "camping above". However, in the spirit of maximising safety and minimising unnecessary 5 to 8 bolt bivvy spots, it does make sense to keep the number of sleeping spots to a minimum. It must reduce the overall effort required, but I would posit that thsi "effort" would mainly have been carried out by the two hypothetical helpers anyway...
Does anyone know if the the fixed lines were still in-situ from previous sessions on the route?
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Since they are not hauling the food and water themselves, insisting on staying on the wall is surely just for media interest, no?
returning to the ground is not considered too well in terms of el capitan free climbing ethics, as far as i understand.
A clear example: a few years back, Cedric Lachat flashed the bottom third of Freerider, aka Freeblast, and abbed to the ground. A few days later he jugged up permanently fixed lines to his previous highpoint (heart ledges) and flashed the rest of the route. This is not commonly considered as the first flash ascent of Freerider, but it would be if going back to the ground was considered valid.
Interestingly though, moving up or down the wall using aid and/or fixed lines to get to your bivy spot at night and then back to your freeclimbing highpoint in the morning is considered OK, there are countless small and big examples, the most famous maybe being Steph Davis spending several nights on a ledge above the pitch she had trouble redpointing on Salathe.
finally, porters and "slaves": they are considered ok, will obviously make the difference between freeclimbing something well below your "climbing only" limit and getting quite close to it, and should be acknowledged more than they usually do.
Last october i've seen a polish "climber+slave" team on Freerider and although the climber was pushing it hard, it was nothing in comparison to the suffering and dedication his slave was showing.
Their help is psychological as well: i could and would have attempted the same route if i an equally dedicated and driven "slave" was available, but as i had a "regular" partner instead (supportive within realistic limitations, having his own objectives as well, etc) it suddenly felt as very close to impossible and not a funny route to "just try, and we'll see".
all in all this attempt does not seem to break any established rthics, but it seems to take full advantage of any loopholes in them.
Makes me think of when Yuji made the technically valid world's first 8c onsight after days of binoculars inspection, on a well-tickmarcked roof route that has been described to me as "never further form the ground than 10 meters".
I don't blame them, it is in the nature of things that such ascents happen and i guess that any dedicated and performance driven climber has had at least a couple of similar experiences...
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(What's the hardest big wall to have a single-push-no-falls ascent? Has the nose been done like that?)
In my naivety, that's what I originally thought they were going to attempt to do - hence all the years of pre-practice :shrug:
[/quote]
Likewise - thought TC had already freed the pitches individually, and assumed most Nose ascents were "no falls/rope-rests" too.
But then I don't really follow big-walling that much...
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I said free slackline, not lead free. I for one don't care whether they both lead a 5.12 or if one of them seconds it.
Whilst they have a help team, it also sounds like they spend a bunch of time rigging ropes for the media crew, so hardly lounging around.
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Does anyone know if the the fixed lines were still in-situ from previous sessions on the route?
Don't think so.
I recall reading a blog or interview saying that the beginning and end of the season are logistical sufferfests.
also, their ledges popped up from nothing sometime in late october, i assume that most of the fixing work was done at the same time.
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what are you trying to say tho Dave, that this isn't as impressive as most people think or that you don't think it'll be that impressive in the future?
I would say the current style is probably as good as you can get while still been able to get to the top
Hi Jim.
Agree with you about, possibly the best style.. and still get to the top.
I'm really psyched with the concept, the whole "will it go?" story, and what a mega, multi year story, along with the technical difficulty of the climbing; it's a real "unlocking the key to your heart" fairytale.
I love a beautiful ending, but Hollywood isn't "quite" doing it for me on this one - there's something a little hollow perhaps. Don't know how to put that across without sounding too negative.
There seems to be a bit of "The Emperors New Clothes" about it, which is more a reference to how we try to make sense of it, no?
Some of my thoughts will be influenced by lack of information too. I cringed a bit, re-reading my posts yesterday; didn't put things across well.
Maybe this dream has a long way to go?
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If they were on the wall without the support, I'd find it easier to relate to.
For me, it seems a misleading question to ask, is it harder to stay on the wall?
Surely, most of us relate to being on the wall, in terms of some inherent self sufficiency - not because it's "necessarily" harder. We want to improve our relationship with it.
If you're doing things just because they're more arduous, why not just throw out the sleeping bags? That would be a strange thing to do. It wouldn't make it "better" - particularly if you were offsetting that hardship with a heater, and a feed of electricity to the ground.
I can imagine plenty of people preferring to remain up there. What a cool place to be!
I'm not trying to take anything away from what KJ and TC are doing, but trying to be clearer about we can say they're doing.
Enough from me.
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be interesting to see how Clif Bar etc describe the ascent after the lads have finished
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The Dawn Wall Push Day 01 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYEhzZA-8vc#ws)
The Dawn Wall Push Day 02 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUAxTlkkWLw#ws)
The Dawn Wall Push Day 03 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spj6_HfAksU#ws)
The Dawn Wall Push Day 04 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OlMsQiRRyQ#ws)
The Dawn Wall Push Day 05 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=015PBuNfsUg#ws)
The Dawn Wall Push Day 06 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQzcjQtWK3g#ws)
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(http://www.yosemitebigwall.com/sites/default/files/FreeDawnWall_ElCapSE-01.png)
Updated topo (http://www.yosemitebigwall.com/free-dawn-wall/) from Erik Sloan's yosemitebigwall.com website.
TC is trying pitch 16, via a down-climb and lower traverse into the Wall of Early Morning Light section, avoiding the big sideways dyno. KJ is still trying pitch 15.
Now a national news story in the US. CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/climbers-try-to-free-climb-hardest-yosemite-cliff/), NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/05/sports/on-el-capitans-dawn-wall-two-climbers-make-slow-progress-toward-a-dream.html?mwrsm=Email).
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Caldwell has red-pointed the loop version of pitch 16; Jorgeson is giving his skin a rest. FB (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tommy-Caldwell/180070212030430?fref=photo)
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I was just about to post the same. Believe that means Caldwell now has nothing harder than 5.13d between him and the top.
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Excuse me my confusion here - pitch 16 is the dyno pitch @ 9a? Then how can Caldwell bypass that at 8b+(?) and still claim the climb?
*feels like it's all being made up as it progresses
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maybe he's going to try the 9a as well and the 8b+ version was just insurance against failure?
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Excuse me my confusion here - pitch 16 is the dyno pitch @ 9a? Then how can Caldwell bypass that at 8b+(?) and still claim the climb?
*feels like it's all being made up as it progresses
I think he has said for some time that he would probably do it via the loop rather than the dyno. The free route doesn't follow a single aid line exactly; there isn't 'a climb' to claim as yet (because it hasn't had a first ascent), Caldwell is as free to decide on the line he wants to take as any first ascentionist is.
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... and if KJ does pitch 15 when his skin's healed, followed by the dyno? Then Caldwell has just done a 'lesser' varient? The team ethos seems a bit flaky here.
Big walling is more confusing than bouldering at Stony.
I'll shut up now, as I don't want to appear critical as it's pretty, bloody amazing whatever they get done.
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... and if KJ does pitch 15 when his skin's healed, followed by the dyno? Then Caldwell has just done a 'lesser' varient? The team ethos seems a bit flaky here.
Big walling is more confusing than bouldering at Stony.
I'll shut up now, as I don't want to appear critical as it's pretty, bloody amazing whatever they get done.
Or, in my mind, KJ will have done the less good variation. Why do a 9a version when there is an 8b+ one? It's not bouldering at Stoney, it's a big wall...
Either way come on boys.
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Is it all really that hard to understand? :wall:
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:wall:
+1
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Yes. I don't have a fucking clue what's going on and I've been climbing 20years
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Yes. I don't have a fucking clue what's going on and I've been climbing 20years
Did they not tell you about the intricacies of futuristic big walls during those early days at Hobson Moor?
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:wall:
+2, although it does seem a bit more complicated than the mighty back wall traverse at Hobson Moor.
Either way come on boys.
More importantly this :agree:
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The Push Day 08 on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/115974154)
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Whilst they have a help team, it also sounds like they spend a bunch of time rigging ropes for the media crew, so hardly lounging around.
From the above, I think you're (vastly) underestimating just how sapping hauling is, and how much water etc. will be required to keep a team on a wall for this length of time. The loads moved will be significant (far far greater than any expenditure in fixing ropes here and there!).
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Especially for lightweight climbers like these, they wouldn't even be able to body-haul the water needed for a siege like this. Never mind the gas and the food.
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Do the slaves carry the full poop tubes down and empty them for them? If so, that's dedication beyond the call of duty.
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Wonder what they're paying the oompa-loompa's?
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(http://www.ivoryccc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/CocoaPic4.jpg)
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surely the smart slaves will have stashed the water at the top and lower it down?
maybe use a hose to plumb the route properly?
gravity and a big pipe could also be used as the basis for a poo and wee disposal system
it'd make things easier for the next team
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The walk-in would be a bit boggy tho.
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John Long has just been on the Today program and has informed the BBC that the holds on Dawn Wall are no greater than the width of "a shilling"!
Cries in the studio of "Good heavans!"
:lol:
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John Long on the Today programme!!! God, how I wish I'd heard that, the one day I don't listen to it ...
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iPlayer?
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Broadcast at approx 07.22
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TODAY programme??? eh>?
I'd rather listen to the soundtrack from a Fiend climbing video than John Humphries patronising dribble....
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I know, but it's not the same as listening along and suddenly thinking "Holy fuck, John Long is on the Today programme!"
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TODAY programme??? eh>?
I'd rather listen to the soundtrack from a Fiend climbing video than John Humphries patronising dribble....
I love John. Probably not the right tool for the informal chat kind of jobs. But just right for cornering evasive, duplicitous sorts.
I hear KJ is getting some special Australian fingertape delivered. Shoddy style.
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I'd rather listen to the soundtrack from a Fiend climbing video than John Humphries patronising dribble....
that's only because he scares you - because you are weak
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gfbkb/player (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gfbkb/player)
Good heavens.
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The current situation is a funny one. TC has done the last 5.14 pitch and must just want to dart for the summit but KJ is still trying pitch 15. He must be dying to get it in the bag but his punter mate keeps dropping the 9a.
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What a punt. I reckon he should start sessioning the dyno pitch to pass the time.
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I hear KJ is getting some special Australian fingertape delivered. Shoddy style.
Well shoddy :lol: If they didn't pack correctly before heading up the wall and they discover they need something that isn't in their box of spare stuff marked 'Kevin and Tommy's big wall stash of stuff for special delivery by oompa loompas', then the ascent should be declared null and void. Back around, nothing to see here.
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Who's declaring anything null and void on that basis?
There's a lot of pushing things to the limit to an extent that a lot of people feel a bit uncomfortable with, and which somehow don't fit well with other aspects of their style - but that's OK, you can just take the piss out of anyone that doesn't agree with you.
As for the tick, Tommy could've just led p.7, and he'd have had a claim on the individual ascent, given that the Molar is a traverse?
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I was joking (poorly) although I might be the only one who thought it funny. Taking the piss or ignoring it seem like the only sensible responses to this story - I'm truly bored of hearing about the minutiae of two people's attempt to climb Dawn Wall so I should probably ignore it and not post.
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Nah Pete, is pretty obviously a piss take. I found it funny anyway! :2thumbsup:
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They're both trying to free every pitch. Thus far TC has done so up to and including no. 15, KJ not done 15 yet. If one of them does every pitch it will count, but obviously it's nicer if they both do every pitch. Sounds like they both lead on the harder pitch, but just swing leads on the easier ones.
:slap:
I said free slackline, not lead free. I for one don't care whether they both lead a 5.12 or if one of them seconds it.
Alex, it wasn't a personal attack on you beacuse I know that you are just repeating what you read elsewhere, just as everyone else with.
However, would you have taken the tick if you'd Red-pointed Era Vella on top-rope? I very much doubt you would, because in sport climbing when you say you've Red-Pointed a route something you mean you've led it.
The same is true of multi-pitching, where 'freeing' a pitch it means its led and over the entiriety of the route you have at least two people [leading] free every pitch. Commonly its a case of swinging pitches (or blocks) as Caldwell and Rodden did when they blasted up Salathe for their 'team free'. If only one person leads all the pitches then they alone have freed the route as Lynn Hill did on The Nose and Steph Davis did on Salathe.
Yeah, we are trying for a ‘team free’ ascent. We want to both free very pitch. We started out swinging leas. Then, at some point it just doesn’t really make sense. When we reached pitches where we had to try them a bunch [to redpoint], we would just alternate [lead] tries. If one person sends it, the other person would just top rope it afterwards. So far this has worked out great. There’s enough sketchy gear up here that, mentally, it’s a lot easier to just top-rope [certain] pitches. We can play off each other’s strengths that way.
Sauce (http://eveningsends.com/climbing/like-dawn-tommy-caldwell-kevin-jorgeson/)
The second and third sentences appear to me contradict each other unless you accept that following/top-roping a pitch without resting counts as free, but I don't as I've explained above.
Both trying to red-point the hard pitches is common sense (or seemed so at the start) as it upped the chances of achieving the overall 'team ascent'. Its a little strange that Jorgenson is continuing to try this pitch as he could have taken the next one where he seemed more solid on the side-ways dyno whilst Caldwell did the loop. I'm sure if Jorgenson doesn't get pitch 15 that he's stuck on he'll sack it off and they will complete the climb achieving the stated 'team free' ascent to give the hardest multi-pitch route to date.
As for the tick, Tommy could've just led p.7, and he'd have had a claim on the individual ascent, given that the Molar is a traverse?
Unfortunately not, from the same article it states they swung pitches from 1 through to 5 so there will be two or three that he didn't lead there depending on who went first.
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I was joking (poorly) although I might be the only one who thought it funny. Taking the piss or ignoring it seem like the only sensible responses to this story - I'm truly bored of hearing about the minutiae of two people's attempt to climb Dawn Wall so I should probably ignore it and not post.
can't make enough jokes about those two guys camping on that wall.
even when they top out (which, sadly, for that very likeable tommy caldwell, is going to be is a rather unsatisfactory style) it's only 9a max isn't it?
hardly significant nowadays
even if they give it 9a+, that's after five years of work.
people are almost onsighting that grade.
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They're both trying to free every pitch. Thus far TC has done so up to and including no. 15, KJ not done 15 yet. If one of them does every pitch it will count, but obviously it's nicer if they both do every pitch. Sounds like they both lead on the harder pitch, but just swing leads on the easier ones.
:slap:
I said free slackline, not lead free. I for one don't care whether they both lead a 5.12 or if one of them seconds it.
Alex, it wasn't a personal attack on you beacuse I know that you are just repeating what you read elsewhere, just as everyone else with.
However, would you have taken the tick if you'd Red-pointed Era Vella on top-rope? I very much doubt you would, because in sport climbing when you say you've Red-Pointed a route something you mean you've led it.
The same is true of multi-pitching, where 'freeing' a pitch it means its led and over the entiriety of the route you have at least two people [leading] free every pitch. Commonly its a case of swinging pitches (or blocks) as Caldwell and Rodden did when they blasted up Salathe for their 'team free'. If only one person leads all the pitches then they alone have freed the route as Lynn Hill did on The Nose and Steph Davis did on Salathe.
Yeah, we are trying for a ‘team free’ ascent. We want to both free very pitch. We started out swinging leas. Then, at some point it just doesn’t really make sense. When we reached pitches where we had to try them a bunch [to redpoint], we would just alternate [lead] tries. If one person sends it, the other person would just top rope it afterwards. So far this has worked out great. There’s enough sketchy gear up here that, mentally, it’s a lot easier to just top-rope [certain] pitches. We can play off each other’s strengths that way.
Sauce (http://eveningsends.com/climbing/like-dawn-tommy-caldwell-kevin-jorgeson/)
The second and third sentences appear to me contradict each other unless you accept that following/top-roping a pitch without resting counts as free, but I don't as I've explained above.
Both trying to red-point the hard pitches is common sense (or seemed so at the start) as it upped the chances of achieving the overall 'team ascent'. Its a little strange that Jorgenson is continuing to try this pitch as he could have taken the next one where he seemed more solid on the side-ways dyno whilst Caldwell did the loop. I'm sure if Jorgenson doesn't get pitch 15 that he's stuck on he'll sack it off and they will complete the climb achieving the stated 'team free' ascent to give the hardest multi-pitch route to date.
As for the tick, Tommy could've just led p.7, and he'd have had a claim on the individual ascent, given that the Molar is a traverse?
Unfortunately not, from the same article it states they swung pitches from 1 through to 5 so there will be two or three that he didn't lead there depending on who went first.
what i understood, is that they (in their big-wall-mind) do understand top-ropeing as "free-climbing". and that their stated goal of a team ascent means they both climb all pitches free. if "KJ" does not free a pitch, either on lead or following/top-ropeing that means their stated goal of a team ascent is not realised.
"TC" will have climbed his five year "proj" in a bastardized style .
TC would get a team free ascent
KJ would get nothing
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That was what I took from the interview - both want to do the climb clean. Every pitch lead by one of them and it's fine for the other to top rope it. KJ no longer has to worry about leading anything else, so the pressure's off in that respect. Let's hope his skin heals...
Franco, in fine style, topping on Salmon Slab at the weekend - I'm finding that thread far more interesting and that film of the Scut fellow in the odd shoes waltzing up the gritstone? Sod Yosemite. I've climbed on that slab at Bamford.
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As for the tick, Tommy could've just led p.7, and he'd have had a claim on the individual ascent, given that the Molar is a traverse?
Unfortunately not, from the same article it states they swung pitches from 1 through to 5 so there will be two or three that he didn't lead there depending on who went first.
[/quote]
Yes, quite, but if it was you in that position, would you deny yourself the tick? Personally I wouldn't be bothered about discrediting TC with an ascent because of that, but p.7 in particular and possibly p.12 stand out.
KJ has just stopped trying - TC helped himself to some milk from the Hydro-Flask (TM US patent pending) with TC written on it.
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I found it funny anyway! :2thumbsup:
+1
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www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-162015-special-dawn-wall-edition-day-11 (http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-162015-special-dawn-wall-edition-day-11)
Cool pics here, but no cigar as yet :???:
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Ethics, pah!........
Let's cut to the chase and as the real question here........
how do you masturbate in a porta ledge without waking up the other guy?
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ask PTPP!
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Looking in from outside (http://www.adventure-journal.com/2015/01/ny-times-commenters-explain-why-the-dawn-wall-climb-is-dumb/) :???: :-\ :lol: :shrug: :blink:
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Christ's balls! I think you needed a few more smileys on the end of that one slackers, that was a gruelling read.
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Wow. That was too entertaining. Not sure if I should :spank: or :clap2:
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Ethics, pah!........
Let's cut to the chase and as the real question here.......
how do you masturbate in a porta ledge without waking up the other guy?
You just need to be very gentle with him.
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Always think it's interesting when you see how msm reports climbing stuff and the reaction of presenters and punters.
They generally get it so wrong it makes you think about how they report on everything niche and how it's probably all bollocks.
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Ethics, pah!........
Let's cut to the chase and as the real question here.......
how do you masturbate in a porta ledge without waking up the other guy?
You just need to be very gentle with him.
Clearly why they've got two ledges.
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They generally get it so wrong it makes you think about how they report on everything niche and how it's probably all bollocks.
I agree
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Looking in from outside (http://www.adventure-journal.com/2015/01/ny-times-commenters-explain-why-the-dawn-wall-climb-is-dumb/) :???: :-\ :lol: :shrug: :blink:
OT, the same page linked to this gem (http://www.adventure-journal.com/2013/08/the-adventurey-report-alex-honnold-adds-sit-down-start-to-the-nose/)
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Ethics, pah!........
Let's cut to the chase and as the real question here........
how do you masturbate in a porta ledge without waking up the other guy?
Ha ha! I'm sure we were all wondering, but afraid to ask.
Who knows, maybe "Come on Tommy, give me a hand here!" takes on a whole new meaning?
Seriously though, who isn't seriously rooting for Jorgeson now?
By the way, how many people are aware of this, from KJ on Evening Sends?:
“That’s how all the crux pitches are. I haven’t redpointed any of them [till now]. "
Wow.
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Looking in from outside (http://www.adventure-journal.com/2015/01/ny-times-commenters-explain-why-the-dawn-wall-climb-is-dumb/) :???: :-\ :lol: :shrug: :blink:
Yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding expressed in the comments in that piece.
Some are quite funny, not many are beyond understanding, and some express views that, although perhaps lacking in some perspective, are worthy of our respect and understanding.
I'm not sure I would so readily dismiss how others view what we do.
It's interesting isn't it, how many comments there are about not damaging the rock, made in what seem to be quite instinctive and heart felt ways.
Anyone got a problem with that?
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yeah. instinct and feelings should be crushed to dust as weprogress towards becoming perfectly rational beings
no, no problem
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It's interesting isn't it, how many comments there are about not damaging the rock, made in what seem to be quite instinctive and heart felt ways.
i'm sure none of those people felt sorry for the rock that was crushed into gravel to pave the road they drove on to look at that other bit of rock.
and they all probably love that freak of nature piece of rock that looks like those presidents.
anyhow, i love anthropomorphising, so lets just think of bolts as jewelry on rock :)
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I haven't got my glasses on. I thought you said anthropr0norphising.
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It's cold, dark, pee-ing with rain. I've got a hole in my finger. But I'm at Broomgrove, and have just sent my two move project (at 22.53).
I'm yelling "Yehhsss!" into the wind.
Do we really expect anyone to understand, looking in from outside?
It's our privilege to know why.
X
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Poetry Dave. Thanks for that.
Although I did think you said "I've got a finger in my hole".
x
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Can we load these two posts from grimer and Dave onto the next probe to leave Earth? Between the two of them they encapsulate UKB perfectly - one of mankind's greatest creations.
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i'm sure none of those people felt sorry for the rock that was crushed into gravel to pave the road they drove on to look at that other bit of rock.
America - home of national parks, dedicated to preservation of the wild... with drive-through sequoias!
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:clap2: :lol:
All very, very good!
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I like the way on the UKB front page it says
Final hard pitch on Dawn wall redpointed by DAVETHOMAS90
I for one would like to say good effort dave ;)
Now apparently I've redpointed it, awesome, nobody post anything else....
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me! (that's my 5 minutes of fame!)
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live updates from Broomgrove!
doesn't get more, um, something-really-good than that!
If I'd been more on the ball I could have brought some water down for you
(you can carry your own poo and wee out)
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I just repointed the hard bit of Dawn Wall - it said so in the interweb
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Dave's got the same buzz as Tommy Caldwell on ground level. Hes sleeping in his own bed and he's not getting molestered during the night by Kevin Jorgeson.
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sounds like Dave is missing out on the best part
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It's cold, dark, pee-ing with rain. I've got a hole in my finger. But I'm at Broomgrove, and have just sent my two move project (at 22.53).
I'm yelling "Yehhsss!" into the wind.
Do we really expect anyone to understand, looking in from outside?
It's our privilege to know why.
X
Lovely post Dave.
What leaves me puzzled, though, is this: how can someone be so happy for completing such trivial endurance feats? Like, two moves? Are you crazy? One single move would be better, but now it all boils down to just holding a position static, for me. And I am always right.
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I'm trying moves I haven't even thought of yet (to paraphrase this)
(https://dov5cor25da49.cloudfront.net/products/917/636x460shirt_guys_02.jpg)
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From what I've read it looks like today will be the defining day for KJ either he's gonna do it or he won't and they'll continue to the top. Weather looks set to turn and I think they'd deem it too big a risk to sacrifice the whole ascent for the sake of doing it in a slightly better style.
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http://tommyandbecca.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/day-13-on-dawn-wall.html (http://tommyandbecca.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/day-13-on-dawn-wall.html)
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[/quote]
What leaves me puzzled, though, is this: how can someone be so happy for completing such trivial endurance feats? Like, two moves? Are you crazy? One single move would be better, but now it all boils down to just holding a position static, for me. And I am always right.
[/quote]
Hey, thanks Nibs!
You're quite right. I was discussing this with my support crew - whether failing on the match at the end of the first move was a fitness problem.
Making ascents on Dawn Wall and Broomgrove at the same time was really starting to take something out of me. However, in the end, I managed to pull through. Yes!
Was going to post on YYFY, but it's gone global already.
*****
Regarding another small matter..
Cone on Kevin!
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They've done well to get such a good spell of weather this time of year.
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Caldwell has polished off pitches 19 and 20, the last of the hard climbing (http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-182015-special-dawn-wall-edition-day-13). He still has eleven pitches to go, including one .13a, but they could probably climb that in a day. Weather forecast (http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?site=hnx&textField1=37.7400&textField2=-119.6000&zone=1) is for possible showers over the next few days, still good for January.
(http://www.elcapreport.com/sites/default/files/5%20%20CIMG_2435.JPG)
Pitch 19, 5.13c / 8a+. The original Wall of Early Morning Light climbs the big corner. (Photo Tom Evans)
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Yep, really great reporting and stunning pictures from El Cap report. Interesting to see Tommy climbing without his shirt on p.17, so clearly quite warm.
Some speculation about what they do if Kevin doesn't send p.15. Difficult. What's everyone else's take on this?
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Beyond caring?
Sorry.
Hmm, nope, don't really care as long as all the pitches have been climbed by one or other of them.
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I have to agree with Pete, I have lost interest. Last year when it was plucky Tommy against the wall on the endless project it was a bit interesting but the current media blitz thing leaves me cold. I couldn't care less who climbs what pitch.
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I dread to think about the effect that this ascent will have on Shark's siege tactics and goal setting
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Did they have a step ladder as well?
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That corner on the right looks nice.
This is all starting to seem very arbitrary.
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I dread to think about the effect that this ascent will have on Shark's siege tactics and goal setting
I wonder if a portaledge was in Sharks Xmas Stocking... He might have to put a bolt in Bens roof to hang it from though...
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It's easy to see it as a bit contrived and ethically dodgy but when someone does the second ascent in better style, I guarantee they say "the real credit has to go to Tommy and Kevin for having the vision/ tenacity etc. to put up this route" and it'll be hard not to agree with them.
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Against all adversities and mockery:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7524/16051111648_94f451a03a.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/70381658@N00/16051111648/)
image (https://www.flickr.com/photos/70381658@N00/16051111648/) by Nibile (https://www.flickr.com/people/70381658@N00/), on Flickr
JE SUIS SHARKIE
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As long as every pitch gets lead I'm not too fussed about the intricacies of the rest of the ascent. My biggest gripe, and I understand that this is small in terms of big wall climbing, is the loop pitch. I can't help but see this as a bit of a cop out.
If they'd played to their strengths and had TC climb these intricate pitches and let KJ who by all accounts seems pretty confident on the Dyno they could have had a free ascent of the hardest possible variation on the wall.
But then my only experience big wall climbing amounts to swinging around on viaducts with a hilti drill so who really fucking cares what I think tbh.
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That corner on the right looks nice.
This is all starting to seem very arbitrary.
Is that suggesting that the corner looks easier? Or aré your 2 comments not related?
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I don't mind about the loop pitch. There's enough hard climbing on it and if he's found a way round it fair enough. The dyno did look cool though. Kevin not doing the 2nd 9a has taken the shine off the whole thing because they've been in limbo and team ascent ethic could be scuppered.
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Kevin sent 15.
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:popcorn: :beer2: :popcorn:
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Balls. Now I'm rooting for them. Go Tommy, go KJ!
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:popcorn: :beer2: :popcorn:
+1
+2
My excitement was starting to wane, and now it's back. I'd really love for Kevin to send the dyno pitch as well. I'm sure the overall footage is going to be pretty spectacular :)
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Kevin sent 15.
YYFY!
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:popcorn: :beer2: :popcorn:
+1
+2
My excitement was starting to wane, and now it's back. I'd really love for Kevin to send the dyno pitch as well. I'm sure the overall footage is going to be pretty spectacular :)
This. Come on.
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Amazing news!
:punk:
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I'd really love for Kevin to send the dyno pitch as well.
Pure joy. Pitch 15 finally went down after 11 attempts over 7 days. Riding high, I stuck the dyno on Pitch 16, but fell in the corner right above the no hands stance. Back to finish that tomorrow. (https://www.facebook.com/kjorgeson/posts/429101640576904)
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Fucking brilliant! :clap2: :bounce: :bow:
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www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-192015-special-dawn-wall-edition-day-14 (http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-192015-special-dawn-wall-edition-day-14)
Great report and pics.
Sweet.
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If the film that comes out from this is even halfway decent I'll be in tears too when he hits that belay.
Bring on the big push to the the top.
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Great report and photos.
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If the film that comes out from this is even halfway decent I'll be in tears too when he hits that belay.
Can't see them fuckin that one up. It's going to be amazing.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/10/yosemite-climber-clears-ascent-segment-el-capitan (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/10/yosemite-climber-clears-ascent-segment-el-capitan)
KJ doing p15 is one of the Guardians breaking news headlines...
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From Jorgeson's twitter:
"Just finished the last 5.14 pitch on the #DawnWall"
https://twitter.com/kjorgeson/status/554043064658821120
:popcorn:
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Did he do the dyno version?
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:coffee:
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:coffee:
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We can close this thread by just having the following links....
Caldwell's Twatter (https://twitter.com/tommycaldwell1)
Caldwell's Farcebook (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tommy-Caldwell/180070212030430?fref=photo)
Jorgeson's Twatter (https://twitter.com/kjorgeson)
Jorgeson's Farcebook (https://www.facebook.com/kjorgeson)
El Cap Reports (http://www.elcapreport.com/)
Nothing more is needed as all the most recent, and up-to-date information will be within these links. All magazine/news paper reports will just be regurgitating these.
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What if people want to....you know...have a discussion? How do we achieve that with your proposal slackline?
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What if people want to....you know...have a discussion? How do we achieve that with your proposal slackline?
Go ahead and discuss, but if you want to know the latest state of play just go and look at those five links, you can't get any more up-to-date than those and everything else is just an echo.
Another useful and informative link that has already appeared in this thread...
Life with the Caldwells (http://tommyandbecca.blogspot.co.uk/) - some updates from Tommy's wife.
Evenings Sends (http://eveningsends.com/) has summarised the facts in two posts, including interviews...
Upto Day 6/Pitch 14 (http://eveningsends.com/climbing/like-dawn-tommy-caldwell-kevin-jorgeson/)
More (upto 2015-01-07 so doesn't cover the last four days) (http://eveningsends.com/climbing/notes-dawn-wall/)
Video updates can be found on the Rock & Ice Vimeo account (https://vimeo.com/rockandice/videos).
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What if people want to....you know...have a discussion? How do we achieve that with your proposal slackline?
As long as The Prophet (.13d) isn't depicted in images, you can.
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They must be getting itchy scrot by now.
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They must be getting itchy scrot by now.
Nah - they've got Baby Wipe slaves who even take the used ones out for recycling.
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As long as The Prophet (.13d) isn't depicted in images, you can.
is that the route to the left of Abu Hamza'a Invisible Hand?
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As long as The Prophet (.13d) isn't depicted in images, you can.
is that the route to the left of Abu Hamza'a Invisible Hand?
No, thats behind the Turin shroud..
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From last year.
Good footage of the dyno, pitch 16, & KJ bouldering in the valley:
www.kevinjorgeson.com/blog/2014/1/3/dawn-wall-update-episode-9 (http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/blog/2014/1/3/dawn-wall-update-episode-9)
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Jorgeson now on Wino Tower.
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Amazing. :bow: :2thumbsup:
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I'm really interested to see what's in store for caldwell after this, young family and all that so I suspect he'll probably kick back a little while.
What's amazing in Patagonia that's still to be done?
I was also musing about the style of this the other day. However this gets done initially, it doesn't really matter as it will give real context to an unsupported ascent where a future wad frees this in a day. Imagine that.
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What's amazing in Patagonia that's still to be done?
Go climbing 1 day in 7 in a 3 month trip.
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http://news-beta.nationalgeographic.com/2015/01/150113-climbing-yosemite-capitan-dawn-wall-caldwell-jorgeson/ (http://news-beta.nationalgeographic.com/2015/01/150113-climbing-yosemite-capitan-dawn-wall-caldwell-jorgeson/)
i'm all for full disclosure, but photo #5 in that article sets some example
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I was also musing about the style of this the other day.
Same here. If this ascent was being done on a big wall in the Himalaya and you replaced their re-supply mates with Sherpas, wouldn't everyone be denouncing the style? It seems very odd to me. Lines of bolts with pre-placed quickdraws. Virtually every account I read thesedays about someone doing a route on El Cap mentions static lines fixed in place so that folk can pre-practice the route on a micro traxion, or climbers abseiling in from the top and getting in the way of those doing it ground up (happened to a mate of mine on Salathe). Camera crews / photographers everywhere. Charity climbs. Dawn Wall is Messner's "murder of the impossible" as far as I can see. This is a multi-pitch sport route. Doing it in a single push without returning to the ground, yet with all the support is incredibly contrived. I suppose the route is considered so far ahead of its time that no-one seems to be bothered that the style which is now completely mocked within mountaineering circles is being congratulated here. If Caldwell wasn't the golden boy and it was the Huber brothers up there, would there be more questions over style? I thought it pretty ironic when Steve House tweeted Dawn wall coverage from @nytimes, so great for climbing! . What am I missing?! :-\
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If Caldwell wasn't the golden boy and it was the Huber brothers up there, would there be more questions over style?
Of course! Dawn Wall has it all: rap-bolting, tick marks, siege tactics, sherpas etc on the only ascent of El Cap that has taken more time then first ascent of The Nose. Fly in the Lauterbrunnen valley e.g. was put up in a much much better style (imho) and everyone was quick to disqualify the ascent.
However, Dawn Wall also has 3 8c+/9a pitches and a bunch mid-8s. We are clearly able to discard all questions about style, blinded by these numbers. I'm not totally convinced that the physical difficulty can justify the lack of style. What do you think a team of Adam Ondra and Alex Megos could do on a big wall with rap-bolting, 6 seasons of top-roping, and a support team of Pietro Dal Pra and Arnaud Petit, say?
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I think the obvious concessions that have been made in style are forgivable. People are quick to point out that the tactics would be mocked if they were being used on a lesser climb or something in the Himalaya but this is exactly the point. Those tactics are no longer used because the objectives they achieve are no longer cutting edge. It would be unthinkable nowadays (to 'real climbers' at any rate) to use the same tactics as Hilary to climb Everest for instance, because with modern equipment and style it is simply not necessary.
This is an attitude that is accepted throughout the sport, the harder you're trying, and particularly if you're doing something new or at a new level of difficulty, the more relaxed you can be about style. Shark got a load of shit for using a ladder on WSS, nobody makes a peep when people use a ladder to work highball 8Bs. If somebody top ropes End of the Affair before leading it then it is completely un-newsworthy.
The guys in Yosemite are making a great leap forward in terms of difficulty and, crucially, are letting everybody know exactly how high the bar has been set. They've cracked the puzzle and it is now for the future repeaters to match or improve upon the style. To assert that Ondra or Megos or whoever could piss the Dawn Wall is completely irrelevant because they aren't pissing the Dawn Wall. More than that, they aren't doing bleeding edge difficulty new routes on big walls. Caldwell and Jorgeson are the only people operating at this level of difficulty on this terrain. It may be in the future that using siege tactics on Dawn Wall, or even new routes of a comparable length and difficulty, is seen as passé, but for now it is not, and as such the tactics are fair.
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More of interest for the ensuing discussion rather than the article itself, with Andrew Bisharat defending the style to the hilt (not surprising really):
http://fringesfolly.com/2015/01/05/what-nobody-is-saying-about-the-dawn-wall/ (http://fringesfolly.com/2015/01/05/what-nobody-is-saying-about-the-dawn-wall/)
I think I mostly agree with Bisharat here. The concept of style seems pretty abstract given the difficulties - have-at-it-in-big-boots ledge shuffling this aint (as I think I already said) - but I do see why people raise an eyebrow at the tactics.
It's not so much the style (every major el cap route has been established with a melee of siege, trickery and compromise), but the fact we get to follow it minute by minute in gory detail.
We always knew Father Christmas wasn't real, but now we get to observe the mechanics of the deception.
EDIT: and what Will said.
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Those tactics are no longer used because the objectives they achieve are no longer cutting edge.
Except that they have been in relatively recent years e.g. Russians on the north face of Jannu.
You've got e.g. the Belgians pushing big wall climbing standards using traditional tactics e.g. Asgard Jamming.
Also, on El Cap, Leo Holding tried to climb the Prophet ground up, before resorting to top down tactics did he not? And he didn't place a bolt every few feet. The Huber routes have sketchy pitches on them gear wise. So 'style' has been important to those pushing the boundaries of big wall free climbing and freeing new routes on El Cap, albeit on ones that are at a much lower technical level.
That Bisharat article is excellent. Does it feel like an 'adventure' up there? I bet it did the first few years that Cauldwell was exploring the route, seeing whether it was possible, but now? Hmm. The push is obviously an internal 'journey' for the climbers, the doubts, the resolve, the skin. But that internal journey chimes more with what you go through bouldering and sport climbing at your limit than big wall and traditional climbing.
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albeit on ones that are at a much lower technical level.
And there is the crux of it all.
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Normally long routes are put up in a way that put premium on good style, while single pitch/short routes are put up in the most convenient way. Most long routes all over the world is put up in a more traditional style. Even 8c/9a pitches on long routes have been put up in good style.
Climbers do as they want of course.
Not at all convinced that hard climbing can justify bad style in "the mountains". If we accept that El Cap is roadside cragging, then anything goes really.
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Jwi and TB. This. The style should be questioned, on any first ascent. On such a heavily publicised first ascent as this on one of the world's iconc big walls it matters even more that the style should be questioned. Bringing an iconic big wall down to the climber's level is a criticism that seems to ring true to many people in this case. It's inevitable anyway - publicise something this heavily and it's going to be examined.
The line may be inspirational but I'm not at all inspired by the climbers' style. There's nothing in their style of ascent that makes me think 'yeah this inspires me to want to try to emulate that on xyz'. I'm sure kevin Jorgenson and Tommy Caldwell will get over me not being inspired by their style in about, ohh, a millisecond... but I'm clearly not the only one.
I think the climbers have sacrificed any trace of good style for the sake of 'a very big tick'. A recurrent theme throughout the history of climbing. But the history of climbing is also full of inspirational difficult first ascents done in good style and these stories endure and inspire. I think sometimes this gets forgotten by those making the perfectly valid point that 'without them doing this in poor style, there wouldn't be a route for others to then try in better style. The bottom line is the route could have waited for an ascent in better style than this. [cliche]It isn't going anywhere.[/cliche]
There are many improvements in style that could be made but to me it seems the main two are:
1. Drop the ridiculous 'Himalayan seige-style' sherpa support teams. i.e. be self-contained as a team.
'Team', remember that idea? A self-contained team of four climbers sharing leads is a more sensible way to approach this sort of challenge then trying to go as 2 individuals both desiring the glory of having climbed every pitch clean and thus requiring massive outside support to achieve this individual ambiton. It appears to me that self-gloryfication of two people has trumped the good sense of tackling the challenge in the manner that most fits the challenge, as a self-contained team ascent of three, four or five people. That to me would have been a far more aspirational style.
2. Go ground up. This would necessitate multiple trips and failures. But then so has this current ascent.
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You've got e.g. the Belgians pushing big wall climbing standards using traditional tactics e.g. Asgard Jamming.
I really admire the Belgians, but like Will says, standards are hardly comparable with Dawn Wall. And you can tell from the way most of their stuff is filmed that they take the frig up, camp above and redpoint below highpoint approach to anything more than slightly difficult (by the Dawn Wall yardstick).
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Pete - point 1 would have even more people dissing the style, a la salathe first ascent. And 2 wouldn't have worked as presumably top down inspection was needed to work out where the line was going to go?
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There'll always be criticisms - that's what forums do! - but I can't see how a self-contained team could be deemed less inspirational than a massive outside support crew.
Bolt ground up, on hooks. It happens. In fact it's the style being aspired to by some Canadians on some of the mini-big-walls being developed in the Rockies - ironically on a wall that TC and Sonnie Trotter bailed from attempting.
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Setting aside 'inspirarional' , I can see how I'd want to lead all the main pitches on my project even if it meant worse logistical style being used.
Wouldn't bolting ground up on hooks just mean shit loads of bolts all over the wall on pitches that are dead ends? Sounds shit style to me!
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Yes it would. Climbing isn't a 'leave no trace' activity though is it, despite the well-intentioned tag lines.
And 'wanting to lead all the main pitches on my proj' is fine - and expected - on small routes. When applied to a mile of granite wall it can leads to circuses. It's a case of biting off more than you can chew adn then fudging the style to compensate. For the sake of what? The team ethic suits the terrain better, and that to me is what climbing should and mostly does aim at doing.
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...the history of climbing is also full of inspirational difficult first ascents done in good style and these stories endure and inspire.
This.
Who knows what the history of climbing is really full of? Bullshit, hyperbole and tall tales of daring-do make up a good part of it, but we'll never really know how much. Especially where free climbing is concerned: sneaky rest points, tension and outright frigging on otherwise 'free' ascents. Making shit up is also undoubtedly common.
At least the style here is fully transparent. I agree that the 4 person fully self-contained approach would've been both preferable and, with the glory of armchair hindsight, probably achievable.
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But not with a ground up approach, obv. Tend to agree with Barrows here: that's your ticket to a lot of dead ends and a big bolty mess.
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Yeah a big bolty mess is for sure a likely possibility of going ground-up but it's hardly much different to the current scene.
And a circus act of unused and redundant support teams - unneeded by our self-contained heroes on the wall - could just as well chop the redundant bolty mess couldn't they, if they so desired.
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Wouldn't bolting ground up on hooks just mean shit loads of bolts all over the wall on pitches that are dead ends?
thats a very common style in the alps, probably the most common on limestone hardcore sport MP like wendenstocke or raetikon, and it doesn't seem to me that those routes are full of "dead end" leftovers
(even if you can occasionally find them in topos. Maybe one every 20 pitches?)
a mix of experience, boldness, featured rock and careful observation with binoculars is probably needed not to let that happen.
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We'll have to disagree on the ground up bolting thing - I think a good route with a line based on top down working is fine, and have no issues with it.
"For the sake of what" - presumably for the sake of them being happy with what they'd done. If I one day learn to jam and go try salathe I'd not be happy unless I'd lead the headwall pitch, even if that meant logistical compromises. I suspect their overriding concern is what makes them happy, with being inspirational a secondary factor..
Ghisino - I'm no granite expert, but my presumption is that it's much easier to climb yourself into a dead end on it than on lime?
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Who knows what the history of climbing is really full of? Bullshit, hyperbole and tall tales of daring-do make up a good part of it, but we'll never really know how much. Especially where free climbing is concerned: sneaky rest points, tension and outright frigging on otherwise 'free' ascents. Making shit up is also undoubtedly common.
At least the style here is fully transparent.
:lol: that's a good point, I must admit.
Wouldn't bolting ground up on hooks just mean shit loads of bolts all over the wall on pitches that are dead ends? Sounds shit style to me!
Rivets. Then take em out. That's how Croft did his routes ground up on the Incredible Hulk in the High Sierras, for example. But that also has its own problems, with routes ending up over-bolted in my experience...
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I think ground-up bolting sounds like a slightly perverse idea, when they're climbing a route based around an existing aid line. Who would really have the strength of character to head up into a possible dead-end on possible 9a terrain when you could just aid up an existing A2 pitch and swing across on an ab rope? (I'm not sure exactly how close they are to the existing pitches of New Dawn, so this probably isn't possible for each pitch as they now exist, but it just sounds impractical beyond reason to try ground up bolting on this).
1. Drop the ridiculous 'Himalayan seige-style' sherpa support teams. i.e. be self-contained as a team.
'Team', remember that idea? A self-contained team of four climbers sharing leads is a more sensible way to approach this sort of challenge then trying to go as 2 individuals both desiring the glory of having climbed every pitch clean and thus requiring massive outside support to achieve this individual ambiton. It appears to me that self-gloryfication of two people has trumped the good sense of tackling the challenge in the manner that most fits the challenge, as a self-contained team ascent of three, four or five people. That to me would have been a far more aspirational style.
Pete, for clarification, by this do you mean one person lead and the others jug that pitch, then change who leads?
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Haven't climbed in the Sierra's but the over-bolting thing on previously bold ground-up bolted routes is very common, and seems a consequence of subsequent parties coming along and adding from the safety of the original placements. Hard to know how to stop it, that's people...
Alex - Obviously it's reasonable to want to climb the money pitches on a classic route like the Salathe, I would too. The Salthe isn't a cutting edge new route and it really doesn't matter to anybody else how you climb it. It's been done in near perfect style already.
On a cutting edge new route on one of the most iconic big walls and in such highly publicised circumstances - their own chosing - I'd argue that style does matter. Thousands of climbers are watching this, and millions of joe public.
Don't get me wrong - I do think it's great that the route is going down. But part of me thinks 'well if this than what about...'. It isn't a particulaly admirable precedent to set for big wall climbing.
Pete, for clarification, by this do you mean one person lead and the others jug that pitch, then change who leads?
As long as 'a leader' in the team leads all pitches clean and in sequence then personally I wouldn't care much what the seconds do. Obviously the best style would be the seconds follow clean. But the self-contained nature, for me, trumps 'individual clean ascent of every pitch but supported by hordes of sherpas and camping high' - I think it's important to use the same argument that's being used to support TC and KJ's style, but apply it to my definition of good style:
i.e. This is a first ascent and improvements can follow.
I just think the style bar could/should have been set a little higher in the first place than has been set in this case.
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I'm curious. To those calling the style into question: if/when they top out, will you deem that they have done the first free ascent of Dawn Wall or will you say "back around"?
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As if anyone would have grounded up this thing. It took years swinging about from above just to find a feasible way up it. And I don't agree Megos and Ondra would be able to improve much on this ascent and cream it like some have suggested. Caldwell is the best in the world at this horrendously technical granite. It's taken years of dedication to get to the point where these pitches are even feasible (plus absolutely dialling the big wall logistics). All his other achievements are dwarfed by this thing. He did The Nose and Freerider both in a day which is pretty much beyond anyone else in the world. It is an obscene route and I guess the question is does the difficulty justify the style of ascent. I can see why people have misgivings about the style but if that's what it takes to make it a reality at this time then so be it!
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No absolutely they've done the first ascent. And it's awesome.
And their ascent required bolting on abseil, top-roping and extensive tick marking, teams of sherpas, camping above the highpoint, loads of sponsorship and media money. These things aren't commonplace in this environment.
It is what it is.
Chris I think there's always a danger of believing the halo effect. History is full of things that were considered impossible. You will be proved wrong, you might not be around to see it.
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After getting spanked on Yosemite V4s recently I can only imagine how heinous those vertical moves are that have taken Caldwell so long to figure out. Standing on your feet to the max!
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If I one day learn to jam and go try salathe I'd not be happy unless I'd lead the headwall pitch, even if that meant logistical compromises.
These "logistical compromises" hopefully not to include the hanging belay in the middle of the pitch :tease:
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And their ascent required bolting on abseil, top-roping and extensive tick marking, teams of sherpas, camping above the highpoint, loads of sponsorship and media money. These things aren't commonplace in this environment.
All of which may be frowned upon to a greater or lesser extent but are not expressly forbidden by the rules.
Am I right in thinking that Dawn Wall, by the end of this, will have had a more valid free ascent than The Nose? Haven't all the free ascents of The Nose used the chipped Jardine Traverse?
The style is crap (I think I may have been the first on the thread during this push to raise the ethical question) but big-bloody-deal. They're climbing 9a on Yosemite granite with their vital organs hanging out of the cavernous holes in their fingertips! I know that 9a is a grade that it is easy to be flippant about now but the reality is that it is still accessed by only a very few. Is anybody else doing it on granite?
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The media circus and the support team does sort of raise eyebrows. But I also think that this is the absolute cutting edge and Tommy Caldwell is in a pretty good position to know where he is on Yosemite ethics.
I do wonder though if TC will go back later and try to improve on his own style on the Dawn Wall. Like Lynn Hill did after she first freed the Nose.
I also wonder if there's an element of TC laying down the gauntlet for the wunderkinds. He's sort of saying - this is the hardest route I can do, at the cutting edge of my generation (9a+ redpointer, big wall specialist). Can you do better? I bet Ondra/Megos will, sooner or later.
It's all very exciting. Though I was ascribing the levels of extreme busyness at the climbing wall the other night to the media coverage.
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I think pretty much what Doylo said. Caldwell is in a league of his won on this stuff and his exploits in Patagonia show how far ahead of the pack he is. Not at all sure Ondra (and even less sure about Megos, now I've seen him) would not be totally out of his element on this.
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(and even less sure about Megos, now I've seen him)
I think Dave should have a crack at Dawn Wall next ;)
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I know that 9a is a grade that it is easy to be flippant about now but the reality is that it is still accessed by only a very few. Is anybody else doing it on granite?
Ondra. Change, 9b+.
But you mean vertical granite. Which is a fair point. Vertical climbing is so much harder to do than steep stuff, even forgetting about multi pitch issues. There aren't many single pitch routes above 9a on vertical rock. It's the same with boudering - how many vertical problems at 8A and up, compared to number of 8B and up on steep rock? On the whole they are more painful, more skin shredding, more beta intensive, more weather dependant.
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Caldwell is in a league of his won on this stuff and his exploits in Patagonia show how far ahead of the pack he is. Not at all sure Ondra (and even less sure about Megos, now I've seen him) would not be totally out of his element on this.
How many times have we seen the top sport climbers apply their strength etc to big wall objectives e.g. Glowacz, Hubers? I really don't think that pulling on matchsticks and standing on small foot holds requires some kind of mysterious zen-like ability. Less so than hard cracks. I suspect Ondra would apply himself quite well to that style of climbing if he wanted to. Probably wouldn't be any use at hauling mind ;)
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Where are the lines of bolts that they have supposedly added for this? I know that in the interviews they talk about long sections on dodgy gear, and that they have only placed the minimum of bolts they thought they could do it with, and nothing to change the character of the aid route where they use the same line.
In the videos on progression Tommy is taking pretty hefty falls on the bolted face pitches.
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I concur with many of the comments of Pete, jwi, T_B, Danny etc about the style of ascent, in the sense that there are questions which are difficult not to ask.
After all, we all try to relate to things through the eye of our own experience - aren't we all exploring through some sort of internal journey? Maybe we just choose not to acknowledge this.
I think it's a dodgy path to go down, to offset, justify, or turn a blind eye to what you might call" poor style", simply on the basis of the difficulty of the climbing. Just think of the implications of this over time. Also, I'm not comfortable with the notion of making claims about what may or may not be forgivable - I don't want to deny myself whatever cop-out options I might find useful in the future!
I have found it tremendously inspiring to follow, in particular, Kevin Jorgesun's efforts - especially having learnt that he hadn't redpointed any of the hard pitches until this attempt, and also wonderful to relate to the romance of Caldwell's obvious love affair with this wall. Yet at the same time, there is a lot about their approach that I want to understand better.
I'm hoping to understand their respective journeys better - isn't that what we all try to do?
So many of the questions people are asking seem to come from a degree of misunderstanding about the extent to which certain tactics have been used, and I think we could all perhaps benefit from more detail here. Maybe we're all a little guilty of trying to design our own myths to take from the struggle - our own idols even! - and a lot of the discussion is directed in this way, rather than careful consideration of what consensus we can arrive at about where the line between valid ascent/not valid lies.
So much of this seems to be a case of "Don't fancy yours much." .. "What! Are you blind?!"..
In our own battle over how we're trying to call it, I think we're probably also guilty of second guessing the motives behind things like staying on the wall, assuming it's harder - and via some strange non sequitur therefore oddly "purer" to do it that way - when it may actually be easier to stay on the wall, given the relatively short window of opportunity afforded by weather and conditions.
So much of this is resonant of the conflict between the hedonism of Harding and the idealism of Robbins - two extremes born of a greater unifying desire that linked them.
One thing is for sure.. maybe! .. this has to be the culmination of the longest ascent - spread over many years - of any new route on El Cap.
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Just to be clear, when I said future wads, I meant just that, Megos and Ondra are current wads I'm talking maybe a couple of generations down the line or maybe even further.
I also wasn't trying to claim that I don't think this is a genuine ascent. TC and KJ have obviously climbed from the bottom of this wall to the top with no points of aid so how could it be anything other than a free ascent.
All I said was the route is there to be improved on in style by future generations.
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I'm really pleased they've completed it.
That way we can stop hearing about it.
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I think it's a dodgy path to go down, to offset, justify, or turn a blind eye to what you might call" poor style", simply on the basis of the difficulty of the climbing. Just think of the implications of this over time.
Although I agree in principle, isn't this what we do when someone headpoints a new route on grit? It is taken as read that a hard new route will have been top-roped first, even though it is poorer style than it being onsighted. But given that say E8+ is too hard / bold / unknown for someone to just walk up to and have a go at, of course it should be accepted as a sensible and reasonable way to approach it. Similarly on El Cap, I think it is self-evident that having some friends delivering food and water is going to make it easier, as is having worked the pitches and added a few bolts to free-climbing variations; but given the difficulty of many of the individual pitches, the logistics of staying up there so long* and so on, the compromises in style are no greater than what are accepted as obviously required for hard routes in other types of climbing
*As an aside, for me, I would find staying up there but being delivered food and water harder than hauling my own stuff and having an indefinite period in which to climb it. It would mean one could make an ascent in which each pitch was only redpointed once over several seasons. To me, that seems far less in the spirit of things,
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In our own battle over how we're trying to call it, I think we're probably also guilty of second guessing the motives behind things like staying on the wall, assuming it's harder - and via some strange non sequitur therefore oddly "purer" to do it that way - when it may actually be easier to stay on the wall, given the relatively short window of opportunity afforded by weather and conditions.
I don't think so Dave. I'm sure Tommy would jug out and give young Fitz a hug if it was 'allowed'!
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:dance1: :icon_beerchug:
Hi Moo, my post wasn't particularly directed at anything you had said in particular - although there is a distinction between "free" and "free ascent"! ;D
And to S_A_C .. booh hoo! :P
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In reply to Reeve.
Mmm. I think we have to decide what it "is", or might be, first, before evaluating style.
We may justify poorer style apropos difficulty at a personal level, but that is a choice, and what we mean by "acceptable" seems to have a different meaning in different contexts - i.e. ethically, valid? etc etc.
Right. Climbing!...
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A metaphor (of sorts)...
One of my colleagues (A) has done the coast to coast bike ride in sections with his partner. Done over a few months weekend at a time section at a time. For them this is a great achievement - and they have 'done' the coast to coast.
Another colleague (B) has done the coast to coast in a week (or however long it took him - but effectively in one push). He stayed in a B&B every night.
Colleague (C) has done the coast to coast in a week but camped and took all his gear (tent, food etc..) with him.
Of course where this breaks down is that most able bodied humans could do A given enough time (none of the hills/sections are impossibe and FFS you could always push...) ~ whereas on Dawn wall there are only a given number of people in the world who could do the hardest pitch(s)...
Anyway - I think we should celebrate as these guys have done something hard - that took massive ammounts of time and commitment (before and during) - and that no-one has done before. Its a great achievement - and like many firsts, we probably wont find out how hard and truly significant it is until someone else tries, fails or succeeds.... Until then - bravo - and its raised the profile of climbing in a very positive light to the rest of the world...
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As long as 'a leader' in the team leads all pitches clean and in sequence then personally I wouldn't care much what the seconds do. Obviously the best style would be the seconds follow clean. But the self-contained nature, for me, trumps 'individual clean ascent of every pitch but supported by hordes of sherpas and camping high' - I think it's important to use the same argument that's being used to support TC and KJ's style, but apply it to my definition of good style:
i.e. This is a first ascent and improvements can follow.
I just think the style bar could/should have been set a little higher in the first place than has been set in this case.
I'm quite perplexed that so many people (here and on UKC) seem to hold a similar sentiment as in your final sentence Pete. I can see that obviously there have been compromises in style, but I don't even think that their tactics are the worst style I've seen used on El Cap, despite being on a much harder route!
No absolutely they've done the first ascent. And it's awesome.
And their ascent required bolting on abseil, top-roping and extensive tick marking, teams of sherpas, camping above the highpoint, loads of sponsorship and media money. These things aren't commonplace in this environment.
It is what it is.
Of the things in your list here, bolts are fairly common on El Cap (although used sparingly, I personally thought that it was fairly pragmatic on the routes I've been on and didn't detract), top roping and tick marking is common-place (bordering on ubiquitous on Freerider), assistance from 'sherpas' (or just friends) is usual and not very different from stashing gear for style points IMO, and camping above your high point on such a project just makes sense in some circumstances (for example, when TC had done pitch 15 and KJ was yet to complete it, would they have to sleep on different portaledges a pitch apart?). El Cap sits a little uncomfortably close to being a convenient cragging area, with the inconvenience of being so bloody big. I'm sure that their intimate knowledge of the route reduced their feeling of adventure and the purity of style (these two things I think are analogous) but isn't that just the nature of working routes over time? Dave MacLeod on the Longhope route, Lynn Hill on the Nose...
As you might be able to tell from my barely restrained evangelical defence of them, I think this is the raddest thing in climbing.
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I suspect Ondra would apply himself quite well to that style of climbing if he wanted to. Probably wouldn't be any use at hauling mind ;)
I'm sure he would too, but the point is he hasn't shown much enthusiasm so far. It strikes me as a bit disrespectful to the like of Tommy to say, oh yeah but Ondra would be better than you. The fact is he isn't.
And by 'out of their element' I was more talking about spending weeks on a wall than pulling on tinies. The 5.12 cracks would require some acclimatisation too. No one's denying folk have potential, but let's not gets too excited about it when that's all it is. Case in point - Sharma had a session up there with Tommy, but he's not there now is he?
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Since they have transformed Dawn Wall to a sport climb, I think it is fair game to point out that the very best all round sport climbers can do pitches quite a lot harder than 9a (even on vertical technical climbs).
(Totally off topic: I saw a video where Ondra cruised Hlaska, a fairly non-trivial off-width crack in Teplice. It's very scary up to the first bolt as well.)
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I suspect Ondra would apply himself quite well to that style of climbing if he wanted to. Probably wouldn't be any use at hauling mind ;)
I'm sure he would too, but the point is he hasn't shown much enthusiasm so far. It strikes me as a bit disrespectful to the like of Tommy to say, oh yeah but Ondra would be better than you. The fact is he isn't.
Hmm, not sure that's being disrespectful? I doubt TC is that precious either. Ondra might not want to get involved at this stage in his career as he chooses to climb all over the place and do comps. In contrast TC is in his 30s, has a young kid and El Cap is basically his local crag.
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Since they have transformed Dawn Wall to a sport climb, I think it is fair game to point out that the very best all round sport climbers can do pitches quite a lot harder than 9a (even on vertical technical climbs).
(Totally off topic: I saw a video where Ondra cruised Hlaska, a fairly non-trivial off-width crack in Teplice. It's very scary up to the first bolt as well.)
How many sport climbs have entire pitches protected with nothing but birdbeaks?
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None since Kristian sorted out Peak lime.
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More of interest for the ensuing discussion rather than the article itself, with Andrew Bisharat defending the style to the hilt (not surprising really):
http://fringesfolly.com/2015/01/05/what-nobody-is-saying-about-the-dawn-wall/ (http://fringesfolly.com/2015/01/05/what-nobody-is-saying-about-the-dawn-wall/)
I think I mostly agree with Bisharat here. The concept of style seems pretty abstract given the difficulties - have-at-it-in-big-boots ledge shuffling this aint (as I think I already said) - but I do see why people raise an eyebrow at the tactics.
It's not so much the style (every major el cap route has been established with a melee of siege, trickery and compromise), but the fact we get to follow it minute by minute in gory detail.
We always knew Father Christmas wasn't real, but now we get to observe the mechanics of the deception.
EDIT: and what Will said.
Agree, what Will and Danny said..
Except the Xmas thing, course he's real.
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I suspect Ondra would apply himself quite well to that style of climbing if he wanted to. Probably wouldn't be any use at hauling mind ;)
I'm sure he would too, but the point is he hasn't shown much enthusiasm so far. It strikes me as a bit disrespectful to the like of Tommy to say, oh yeah but Ondra would be better than you. The fact is he isn't.
Hmm, not sure that's being disrespectful? I doubt TC is that precious either. Ondra might not want to get involved at this stage in his career as he chooses to climb all over the place and do comps. In contrast TC is in his 30s, has a young kid and El Cap is basically his local crag.
That is sooooooooo dismissive of Tommy it is unreal! Do you think that El Cap is his local crag by some happy coincidence? That he's just a guy who grew up near Yosemite and decided to have a crack at this old climbing malarkey and a few weeks later was doing Dawn Wall?
People on this thread need to realise that trotting out the assertion that 'Climber X could do it with his pants round his ankles so Climber TC/KJ is obviously not at the cutting edge' is totally bereft of logic.
You might as well say that God could do Dawn Wall without seige tactics.
You might as well say that people bouldering 8C could do any route on Peak Lime because the individual moves aren't that hard.
You are comparing apples with oranges.
Chalk with cheese.
You are trying to compare the achievments of today with those of the future, and where would any climbing (particularly gritstone) be if you applied the same criticisms there? Like saying in 1997 "Seb did a really shit job on Meshuga because there are sport climbers who could flash those moves".
They are not the same game and until Climber X does come along and improve on the style then any criticism is meaningless because the climbers in question have been honest about their style and have not broken any fundamental rules of the game.
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Sorry, wasn't meant to be. Yes, he's ahead of the pack, I just don't think you're comparing chalk and cheese when bouldering/sport climbing tactics are used to this extent on a big wall.
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http://climbingnarc.com/2015/01/watch-dawn-wall-finish-live/
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The exposure has gone through the roof now. BBC Breakfast, BBc News at 6, several Bbc radio stations. Channel 4 news, Gaz Parry currently on sky news. Never seen anything like it, it's certainly captured the imagination. Need a Newsnight debate now with Dave Thomas and TB slagging off the style :lol:
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My old man just phoned to tell me "because you won't have heard about these two lads who are climbing some big cliff they are living on". I don't have a TV. Seems to have caught the media's attention like Bonington and Co on Everest in the 70s - I was only young but remember it well, despite my parents not being climbers or mountain people.
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Watching the feed, I find it hard to believe that any future "wad", no matter how strong, is going to stroll up this thing in a day or whatever predictions of that sort people want to make. There is so much tedious traversing, downclimbing, and meandering I don't think there are enough hours in the day for anyone to fly up the route, no matter how strong they are. And that's without even getting into all the frigging around at belays, rope work, and hauling.
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1975 S.W. Face expedition at a guess, but we didn't have a telly which makes me into the intellectually superior god that I am today. :ras: :-\
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The exposure has gone through the roof now. BBC Breakfast, BBc News at 6, several Bbc radio stations. Channel 4 news, Gaz Parry currently on sky news. Never seen anything like it, it's certainly captured the imagination. Need a Newsnight debate now with Dave Thomas and TB slagging off the style :lol:
Utter fucking bollox, we need an 'after dark' style debate, with Dawes, Dunne, Thomas and Airlee Anderson.
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To Doylo.
That's a poor call isn't it? I think that misrepresents most of what I've posted.
It's great that people question stuff; that's not the same as throwing the baby out with the bath water, slagging things off.
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Really impressive dedication from the two of them sticking with it for this many years... And it is a bit surprising how the non climbing media have got so psyched about it.
“Caldwell is in a league of his won on this stuff and his exploits in Patagonia show how far ahead of the pack he is.” - JB
“I don't agree Megos and Ondra would be able to improve much on this ascent” - Doylo
Hmmm… I agree that Megos would struggle with this. He’s clearly got a ridiculous amount of stamina – so is awesome at onsighting long steep routes in Spain. And he’s also very good on pockets in the Frankenjura. But technical, crimpy, vertical walls aren’t his thing at all. Maybe he could climb it – but I suspect it would take ages.
Ondra is a completely different story. Betting against him doing this very quickly at some point is a bad idea - this kind of technical fingery wall climbing has his name all over it. It’s not disrespectful to Tommy and Kevin – it’s just reality. It’s worth remembering that other pure sport climbers - eg Jonathan Siegrist have been on this and had a reasonably successful time - it's runout pseudo sport climbing really, rather than trad climbing as UK climbers would think of it - bolts on the harder sections, and a lot of the other (sometimes very quirky) gear being left in situ.
It’s not the fact that Ondra has climbed 9b+ or onsighted 9a or any of that stuff – I wouldn’t give Sharma or Megos much chance of doing this in a hurry at all. It’s the sport climbing ability on crimpy technical vertical walls that matters for this route – and he’s just in a totally and completely different league to anyone at that style (Tommy included – and what Tommy has done in Patagonia has precisely knack all to do with it!). Remember the last "hardest big wall in the world" - that route in Madagascar – vertical technical crimpy granite multipitch climbing (exactly the same style as the Dawn Wall minus the quirky gear and the length). The style he climbed that in was utterly ridiculous and I strongly suspect won’t be bettered for decades. The likes of Caff, Francois Legrand, Sylvain Millet (who’s climbed Realization amongst lots of other things), Arnaud Petit etc etc – had all been there on reasonably long trips to try that route – and despite weeks and weeks of effort hadn’t even managed to free every pitch. Ondra rocked up and climbed the whole thing ground up in a day – onsighting all but one pitch (which he did next go…). And that was five years ago. He’s a lot better than that now.
The one thing I thought he would struggle with on The Dawn Wall was the dyno, but now that’s been bypassed it’s no longer an issue. Ultimately, what has taken all the time for Kevin and Tommy are the two 9a traverse pitches (notably the hardest free climbing on El Cap is the bit that isn’t on any aid routes – one of the few sections of rock that clowns with peg hammers haven’t battered the hell out of…). They could have easily done the rest of the route years ago if it wasn’t for those. They have obviously been very hard to work out the sequences on – but Ondra would probably watch the vids – or I wouldn’t be surprised if Tommy were to go up with him and give him the beta. I wouldn’t give anyone else in the world much chance at climbing just those two pitches in a week. But Ondra – think how many crimpy technical horrorshow 9a’s he’s done in no time. Remember that Tommy and Kevin have only climbed a handful of 9a’s between them over many years of effort.
As for how fast he could do it – it depends on how the route was set up. If he got someone else to do all the hauling, aid the pitches before he climbed them and pre place all the gear etc – essentially set the route up in the way it was for Kevin and Tommy’s ascent – so that he could just climb in sport climbing mode (he’d be fine with long runouts and crap gear on easy sections – as long as he doesn’t have to figure out how to place it). Then I think he could probably do the whole thing ground up in a week. He’d probably onsight the majority of it – and maybe need a day for each of the 9a pitches. (On the route in Madagascar he climbed with Pietro dal Pra – who dealt with all the big walling stuff so Ondra could just focus on the climbing.)
If on the other hand he just set off with a mate and was having to figure out all the weird gear placements etc – that’s a different ball game altogether – he’d struggle and it would probably take him quite a few weeks just to suss out the gear / big walling technique etc…
The other thing Ondra would definitely have taken note of is when this ascent got done – arguably one of the biggest hurdles Tommy and Kevin have had is that they were trying the route when it was too warm. Noone has tried to free really hard big walls in Yosemite in January before – and for the hard pitches on this route it has clearly made all the difference.
Anyway, I fully expect Ondra will be psyched on doing this at some point. But probably not for quite a while - he can do this in his 30s when the psyche for ridiculous training schedules and uber sport climbing is fading - you don't need 9c fitness for this kind of thing – for the foreseeable future I get the impression his main focus is going to be sport climbing.
“I do wonder though if TC will go back later and try to improve on his own style on the Dawn Wall.” - Rocksteady
Indeed. I have to confess to being in the camp that's slightly disappointed with the style choices they’ve ended up making. Of course the rules of the game for freeing big walls are pretty arbitary at the best of times. I just think that given the amount of effort they've put in to get here, they could have easily have done considerably better than this. In particular I'm really surprised that they’ve decided not to redpoint every pitch – which as I understood it was their original intention. It would have added very little time to the ascent – I suppose they weren’t sure about the weather window but even so…
As to the other aspects of style – where the camp is and the other people hauling etc – I’m less interested, although some of it does feel a bit absurd. I had assumed that when it came to the actual ascent that everything would have been stripped and the two of them would just start at the bottom with all their gear and set up ledges as and when appropriate. Climbing 5 pitches, then jugging half way UP El Cap to sleep in the pre placed camp. Then abbing down back to pitch 6 and starting from there the next day etc etc... It does feel more than a bit strange.
But the “rules” for that stuff in Yosemite (or on any big wall) are pretty random. And when they needed to have the whole route rigged for cameramen and can jug from the ground to the crux pitches in well under an hour – it doesn’t really make a fat lot of difference where the portaledge was set up. They could have set it up a foot off the ground so that people could bring them pizzas every night – but I guess that wouldn’t look as impressive on film…
But wouldn’t be too surprised if Tommy went back without the media circus and tried to redpoint every pitch in a week or something – maybe without the entire route being rigged first. Or maybe not – it would be easy to have had enough of it after seven years!
Utlimately, I don’t agree with the people asserting that this is the most impressive climbing achievement of all time - I think most people still haven't really clocked how hard top end sport climbing is relative to all other aspects of climbing (e,g: bouldering and trad which are much more constrained by geology).
BUT – what is really impressive about this ascent is the dedication, the patience and the “vision”. That is a massively overused word in the climbing world – it doesn’t require “vision” to bolt a new 9b in Ceuse or brush a new Font 8C in Switzerland. It just requires a bit of time to play with in an area with decent rock, a pair of eyes and some degree of ability to work sequences out. But imagining a free line up the blankest bit of El Cap – it was far from obvious that this would go – Tommy and Kevin’s efforts on this route really do for once deserve that word.
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Agree that this is nuts - my Dad just asked me about it, having heard about it a few times on Radio 4.
Like Nemo, I suspect that AO would do well on this style. However, like JB and Will, I'm of the opinion that how well someone would be likely to do on something is meaningless; potential means nothing unless it's converted.
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Great post by Nemo, and most definitely the last sentiment.
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The big question is do I sit through 20 mins of why David Cameron will not go on a TV debate with out the Greens in order to see what ITVs slant is of this.
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Really impressive dedication from the two of them sticking with it for this many years... And it is a bit surprising how the non climbing media have got so psyched about it.
“Caldwell is in a league of his won on this stuff and his exploits in Patagonia show how far ahead of the pack he is.” - JB
“I don't agree Megos and Ondra would be able to improve much on this ascent” - Doylo
Hmmm… I agree that Megos would struggle with this. He’s clearly got a ridiculous amount of stamina – so is awesome at onsighting long steep routes in Spain. And he’s also very good on pockets in the Frankenjura. But technical, crimpy, vertical walls aren’t his thing at all. Maybe he could climb it – but I suspect it would take ages....
.....Anyway, I fully expect Ondra will be psyched on doing this at some point. But probably not for quite a while - he can do this in his 30s when the psyche for ridiculous training schedules and uber sport climbing is fading - you don't need 9c fitness for this kind of thing – for the foreseeable future I get the impression his main focus is going to be sport climbing.
A couple of thoughts on this. I think the truth is somewhere in between. There's very little reason to doubt Adam could climb this. He's done any and everything else he's set his mind to. That said, your argument was that A)with someone to haul for him, and B) someone to place all the gear for him, he could do the route. How does that "improve" on the style of the ascent? because it's ground up? That's a wash to me as doing a FA is better style than a repeat, and in this case to me equals out the "style factor" of ground up.
Also, I think Tommy tends to get underestimated in his climbing. He put up the first 9a+ in North America in 2001, which has still not been repeated. Then he quit aiming for cutting edge sport and moved into Big wall stuff. I see very little reason to think he couldn't have done 9b sport if he'd gone down that road. The Nose free in a day??? Everything else he's done on El Cap?
In the late 90's Sharma was the poster child for climbing in part because of his carefree attitude and surfer look/style. Caldwell was the workhorse, but he really matched Chris almost step for step.
Style Paragraphs
Generally agree. I think after 6 years, the first step was proving to themselves that it could be done. I full expect that they both have the same general thoughts as all of the rest of us, as far as what the "best" style is. but in the end it tends to be the case that FA's are normally not done in the optimal style, and often for good reason. And it leaves that option open for those who come after to improve on the style.
Utlimately, I don’t agree with the people asserting that this is the most impressive climbing achievement of all time - I think most people still haven't really clocked how hard top end sport climbing is relative to all other aspects of climbing (e,g: bouldering and trad which are much more constrained by geology).
Agree with the first. Disagree with the second. It rerads to me like you're implying that "hard top end sport climbing" is harder than top end bouldering or trad..... I disagree with this. I'd say that we're at a stage in climbing where (at the very top end) no single aspect of climbing is really any "harder" at the top end relative to any other aspect. I'd have a hard time believeing they're not all fairly comparable at the top end.
BUT – what is really impressive about this ascent is the dedication, the patience and the “vision”. That is a massively overused word in the climbing world – it doesn’t require “vision” to bolt a new 9b in Ceuse or brush a new Font 8C in Switzerland. It just requires a bit of time to play with in an area with decent rock, a pair of eyes and some degree of ability to work sequences out. But imagining a free line up the blankest bit of El Cap – it was far from obvious that this would go – Tommy and Kevin’s efforts on this route really do for once deserve that word.
100% Agree
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They have done it...
http://climbingnarc.com/2015/01/watch-dawn-wall-finish-live/ (http://climbingnarc.com/2015/01/watch-dawn-wall-finish-live/)
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Did they just finish? The live stream was pretty un-eventful...
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Huzzah. Well I'm impressed and think all the naysayers should just either repeat or better the feat or just shut the feck up.
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An incredible effort by both of them! Very impressive!
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I have loved every moment of this story, probably the most impressive and inspiring things I've seen during the nearly four decades I've been in climbing. I don't give a fuck about all the questions about style etc. - this is just flat out brilliant news. Congratulations to Tommy and Kevin.
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Just heard John Humphrys say that they'd done it
Ace :clap2:
with all the interest about style and ethics, I wonder whether they'll make it into Charlie Hebdo
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Top effort - really is.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7WdZaKIQAAOtXP.jpg)
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Any links to a topo or a nice pitch by pitch description like super topo? I'm clueless as to where the route is on el cap and where the difficulties lie.
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I have loved every moment of this story, probably the most impressive and inspiring things I've seen during the nearly four decades I've been in climbing. I don't give a fuck about all the questions about style etc. - this is just flat out brilliant news. Congratulations to Tommy and Kevin.
100% this. Watched them finish it last night. Crappy live feed with no sound of two ants crawling up a rock with loads of fannying about at belays and pulling ropes. It was brilliant. Well done lads.
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Any links to a topo or a nice pitch by pitch description like super topo? I'm clueless as to where the route is on el cap and where the difficulties lie.
http://www.yosemitebigwall.com/free-dawn-wall (http://www.yosemitebigwall.com/free-dawn-wall)
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Woo! :bounce: :bow: :beer2: :2thumbsup:
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I am with Andy and Jasper on this and dont get why there is any controversy over it. If you ignore some of the hyperbole from the mainstream media its all been brilliant.
I have found media interest in in fascinating to watch, quite odd but fascinating as well. I did think it had finally got out of hand last night when i read something along the lines of -
"And tonight on Sky news we have XXX talking about Charlie Hebdo , xxx discussing Ebola and Gaz Parry on the dawn wall."
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Gresh must have been unavailable. ;)
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Thumbs up from Obama too :o
(http://i59.tinypic.com/24wbrxf.jpg)
The thing that resonates with me the most is that it shows what can be achieved with a good siege. When I first saw this in Progression it looked like one for the next generation if not impossible but they seiged it into submission. Long live the siege!
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Gresh must have been unavailable. ;)
No he was doing BBC breakfast this morning so needed an early night.
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Where's Bear 'George foreman' Grylls when his country needs him eh? Eh?
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Is Obama posing in front of a painting of the Dawn Wall?
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Awesome. :great:
Is Obama posing in front of a painting of the Dawn Wall?
The Dawn Wall is the other side of the Nose I believe. Barack around.
The thing that resonates with me the most is that it shows what can be achieved with a good siege. When I first saw this in Progression it looked like one for the next generation if not impossible but they seiged it into submission. Long live the siege!
I thought this was a quote from Obama at first. :lol:
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It was ;)
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http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/two-idiots-climb-big-thing-for-some-stupid-reason-2015011594457 (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/two-idiots-climb-big-thing-for-some-stupid-reason-2015011594457)
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Where's Bear 'George foreman' Grylls when his country needs him eh? Eh?
Er.. on the cover of GQ magazine actually. :shrug:
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The thing that resonates with me the most is that it shows what can be achieved with a good siege. When I first saw this in Progression it looked like one for the next generation if not impossible but they seiged it into submission. Long live the siege!
Love affair surely? Beautiful.
That's how I relate to it anyway. .
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I think it's amazing. Being discussed on Radio 2 in a few minutes apparently......
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The thing that resonates with me the most is that it shows what can be achieved with a good siege. When I first saw this in Progression it looked like one for the next generation if not impossible but they seiged it into submission. Long live the siege!
Love affair surely? Beautiful.
That's how I relate to it anyway. .
All beautiful sieges are a love affair.
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The thing that resonates with me the most is that it shows what can be achieved with a good siege. When I first saw this in Progression it looked like one for the next generation if not impossible but they seiged it into submission. Long live the siege!
Love affair surely? Beautiful.
That's how I relate to it anyway. .
All beautiful sieges are a love affair.
Aye :yes:
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The thing that resonates with me the most is that it shows what can be achieved with a good siege. When I first saw this in Progression it looked like one for the next generation if not impossible but they seiged it into submission. Long live the siege!
Love affair surely? Beautiful.
That's how I relate to it anyway. .
All beautiful sieges are a love affair.
Err, no they are seething cauldrons of loathing and self-doubt, interspersed with bouts of petulant obscenity and completed with a vague feeling of anticlimax and inadequacy. You've obviously not been doing them right.
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I've never loved a women but i thought that's what love affairs were like too? :shrug:
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I've never loved a women but i thought that's what love affairs were like too? :shrug:
Ah! sorry Doylo, right you are then
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The thing that resonates with me the most is that it shows what can be achieved with a good siege. When I first saw this in Progression it looked like one for the next generation if not impossible but they seiged it into submission. Long live the siege!
Love affair surely? Beautiful.
That's how I relate to it anyway. .
All beautiful sieges are a love affair.
Err, no they are seething cauldrons of loathing and self-doubt, interspersed with bouts of petulant obscenity and completed with a vague feeling of anticlimax and inadequacy. You've obviously not been doing them right.
I've never loved a women but i thought that's what love affairs were like too? :shrug:
They are. :doubt:
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My father just called me to ask whether I knew that two climbers had climbed El Capitan. I asked him how did he know, and he told me that it's on every TV News!
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On the bright side, from now on, every time you tell someone you are climber they will ask if you'd like to climb the Dawn Wall rather than Everest; seems an improvement, somehow.
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But they'll still ask "so how high have you climbed?".
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They'll keep asking if you climb without rope like Manolo and if you can "pull yourself up witg one finger". To the second question I will loudly answer "You can bet your ass I can!!!"
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Apparently they've a press conference nowish (7pm) not sure if it's being screened anywhere but probably more on the news channels later.
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It's been funny fielding questions from colleagues all week at work... It's certainly caught the imagination of the public which is a good thing. I bet those of you who've climbed El Cap are loving the attention :)
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It's been funny fielding questions from colleagues all week at work... It's certainly caught the imagination of the public which is a good thing. I bet those of you who've climbed El Cap are loving the attention :)
I figured the PR machine must have done a sterling job when my Dad, who's generally unaware of anything not on either ITV or the Racing Post website, asked whether I "knew 'owt 'bout those fellas doing World's hardest climb on a rock in America; it's never been climbed before and they're using only their fingers :ohmy:, and having to camp up there!".
Tricky really, explaining both why it's so special, whilst acknowledging that there are lots of free routes up El Cap and that no pitch of the climbing is at the current limit... at least not without mutually painful attempts to explain aid climbing and red pointing... in the end I gave up - said it was great stuff and told him about the alarm calls for night-time skin cream applications and poo tubes!
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On the bright side, from now on, every time you tell someone you are climber they will ask if you'd like to climb the Dawn Wall rather than Everest; seems an improvement, somehow.
You'd think wouldn't you, yet yesterday in the office two people (one 'climbs') were discussing the dawn wall and discussion got onto "those tent things, that they hang" and the other said with great confidence "they use those on Everest too".
:chair:
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Its not hard to see why non climbers cant really get there heads around what they did when a lot of climbers dont get the differences in the various aspects of the sport.
Aid, free, free solo, solo (roped), redpoint, onsight, flashed, ground up, top roped, worked, looked at a bit from an ab rope but didnt touch the holds etc etc. 5 mins on UKC and you can see that a lot have no idea of the difference.
What they have done seems pretty straight forward to me, they started at the bottom and climbed to the top in one go and every pitch was red pointed by both of them. The rest seems irrelevant.
The only thing that seems a bit odd is not climbing all the pitches in sequence. No issue with it just seems odd.
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What they have done seems pretty straight forward to me, they started at the bottom and climbed to the top in one go and every pitch was red pointed by both of them. The rest seems irrelevant.
The only thing that seems a bit odd is not climbing all the pitches in sequence. No issue with it just seems odd.
That's quite an oversimplification isn't it!
... if we dismiss the 6 years of preparation as a starting point (which is, for me, why this has been so captivating). Then of course, not every pitch was redpointed by both of them.. or climbed by both of them.. and so many other factors ignored here that have raised questions, and which offer potential for improvement, if that's your bag - that's not the real story here - but a little more clarity can make things easier to relate to, which I'm sure is probably what a lot of people are after, climber or non-climber.
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What they have done seems pretty straight forward to me, they started at the bottom and climbed to the top in one go and every pitch was red pointed by both of them, other than the dyno/loop pitch. The rest seems irrelevant.
The only thing that seems a bit odd is not climbing all the pitches in sequence. No issue with it just seems odd.
That's quite an oversimplification isn't it!
... if we dismiss the 6 years of preparation as a starting point (which is, for me, why this has been so captivating). Then of course, not every pitch was redpointed by both of them.. or climbed by both of them.. and so many other factors ignored here that have raised questions, and which offer potential for improvement, if that's your bag - that's not the real story here - but a little more clarity can make things easier to relate to, which I'm sure is probably what a lot of people are after, climber or non-climber.
Is that better? Seems pretty clear to me.
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Then of course, not every pitch was redpointed by both of them..
Yep they swung leads on pitches 1-5 (reported under Day 1, pitches were 5.12b, 5.13a, 5.13c, 5.12b, 5.12d) (http://eveningsends.com/climbing/like-dawn-tommy-caldwell-kevin-jorgeson/) at least. I've not read anything about the easier top pitches.
This is not an attempt to denigrate their efforts, just clarification of the facts.
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I'd guess that they swung leads on some of the top pitches, or a that only one of them led the last pitch. Might have caused a bit of confusion and a huge anticlimax to have one of them top out to a cheering crowd only to disappear over the edge again to let the other lead it...
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What they have done seems pretty straight forward to me, they started at the bottom and climbed to the top in one go and every pitch was red pointed by both of them, other than the dyno/loop pitch. The rest seems irrelevant.
The only thing that seems a bit odd is not climbing all the pitches in sequence. No issue with it just seems odd.
That's quite an oversimplification isn't it!
... if we dismiss the 6 years of preparation as a starting point (which is, for me, why this has been so captivating). Then of course, not every pitch was redpointed by both of them.. or climbed by both of them.. and so many other factors ignored here that have raised questions, and which offer potential for improvement, if that's your bag - that's not the real story here - but a little more clarity can make things easier to relate to, which I'm sure is probably what a lot of people are after, climber or non-climber.
Is that better? Seems pretty clear to me.
I wasn't trying to define what had happened, or make it clearer - a lot of the detail can be found on the various other reports pages, face book links etc. Slackers provided links to most of them; really worth checking out, with some great footage from previous attempts etc.
Also worth - if you're bothered - going through the breakdown of which pitches led, followed redpointed etc.
Thanks Slackers for info on first pitches, variations after those of course too.
I'm just sad that it's all over! I'm sure I'm not the only one
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Its not hard to see why non climbers cant really get there heads around what they did when a lot of climbers dont get the differences in the various aspects of the sport.
Exactly, I don't know why we get wound up about it either... It's must be like cricket to a non-cricketer.
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just had my first Dawn Wall conversation at work
some cool slack jawed responses to me explaining tendon pulley injuries (and how many I have had)
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just had my first Dawn Wall conversation at work
some cool slack jawed responses to me explaining tendon pulley injuries (and how many I have had)
Working at home, I was only able to have chat to the cat about this. He looked disinterested and then one armer'd a shelf...
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jump start and tail kipping?
back around cat
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jump start and tail kipping?
back around cat
To be fair he did french start it... I feel less inadequate now.
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"Very good" interview with Alex "Honnlove" about Dawn Wall :)
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just had my first Dawn Wall conversation at work
some cool slack jawed responses to me explaining tendon pulley injuries (and how many I have had)
A guy at work told me he "wasn't sure whether to believe" that they had to wait to grow sufficient skin to between redpoint days.
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I hope you pointed him to your nail file / 3M sanding block and asked what he thought you were doing constantly filing your fingertips?
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I must have filed my skin less than ten times!
On another note does anyone know if they've done the dawn wall yet?
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Flashback: When two men climbed El Capitan in 1970 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Fp_gpsULI#)
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Tommy Caldwell Climbing Pitch 15 | The Dawn Wall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLd_c4CjG44#ws)
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Seems they're calling that pitch 14.c or 8c+ now.
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Nice footage :)
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Nice video, with some great footage of Jorgesun on the crux pitch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l_lZc7nATT4
Old news of course, but a sweet little vid. All really inspiring.
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/brennannativ/dawn-wall-climb-topo-cup-sustainable-stainless-ste (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/brennannativ/dawn-wall-climb-topo-cup-sustainable-stainless-ste)
I'm so getting one. Itz rad.
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Loooong interviews with Kevin & Tommy (http://www.climbing.com/dawn-wall-interviews/)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmxLfn4Pjfs
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Ondra wants to do the dawn wall in a 24 hour push (noticed an interview on facebook shared by moon climbing).
This is in the future, not right now....
Fucking show off.
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Ondra wants to do the dawn wall in a 24 hour push (noticed an interview on facebook shared by moon climbing).
This is in the future, not right now....
Saving himself for the flash I reckon
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The amount of pre-spray that has gone into this route is staggering
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I may just have missed it, but doesn't seem to have been particularly well publicised that there are a lot of cinema screenings of the Dawn Wall film around the country at the moment, I'm looking forward to seeing El Cap on a big screen.
https://uk.demand.film/dawn-wall/
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Ohhhh - good shout. Shame it's not on a Bradford IMAX though, that would be brilliant.
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Abbeydale picture house 16th October!
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Abbeydale picture house 16th October!
sold out :lol:
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damn, for once it's in Aberdeen, and we are away for school holidays.
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Abbeydale picture house 16th October!
sold out :lol:
Looks like there's potential for an earlier showing if there's enough interest.
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Watched this in Manchester last night. Wow. Pretty gobsmacking footage. Quite a story too. Would appeal to a non climber also. A must see.
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Showing in Newcastle next Thursday. Tickets available.
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Watched this in Manchester last night. Wow. Pretty gobsmacking footage. Quite a story too. Would appeal to a non climber also. A must see.
Seeing that opening shot of the valley on the big screen was worth the ticket price alone.....
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Watched this in Manchester last night. Wow. Pretty gobsmacking footage. Quite a story too. Would appeal to a non climber also. A must see.
Seeing that opening shot of the valley on the big screen was worth the ticket price alone.....
Has it been and gone from Manchester?
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Has it been and gone from Manchester?
Yep, one night only.
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There's tickets left for the Leeds Bradford one which is easily accessible off the M606. I and Bingley's Tallest Man (and also climber), THE Rooooooooob Fenton, will be at the late showing.
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I am normally very sceptical about climbing films about one route and about spending an evening watching a climbing film anyway. Suffice to say, I thought it was totally brilliant.
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Watched it last night in Bradford. Brilliant film, brilliant story.
Pre-ordered from ITunes for 20 November release