[T_B]

I was also musing about the style of this the other day.

Same here. If this ascent was being done on a big wall in the Himalaya and you replaced their re-supply mates with Sherpas, wouldn't everyone be denouncing the style? It seems very odd to me. Lines of bolts with pre-placed quickdraws. Virtually every account I read thesedays about someone doing a route on El Cap mentions static lines fixed in place so that folk can pre-practice the route on a micro traxion, or climbers abseiling in from the top and getting in the way of those doing it ground up (happened to a mate of mine on Salathe). Camera crews / photographers everywhere. Charity climbs. Dawn Wall is Messner's "murder of the impossible" as far as I can see. This is a multi-pitch sport route. Doing it in a single push without returning to the ground, yet with all the support is incredibly contrived. I suppose the route is considered so far ahead of its time that no-one seems to be bothered that the style which is now completely mocked within mountaineering circles is being congratulated here. If Caldwell wasn't the golden boy and it was the Huber brothers up there, would there be more questions over style? I thought it pretty ironic when Steve House tweeted Dawn wall coverage from @nytimes, so great for climbing! . What am I missing?!

[jwi]

If Caldwell wasn't the golden boy and it was the Huber brothers up there, would there be more questions over style?

Of course!  Dawn Wall has it all: rap-bolting, tick marks, siege tactics, sherpas etc on the only ascent of El Cap that has taken more time then first ascent of The Nose. Fly in the Lauterbrunnen valley e.g. was put up in a much much better style (imho) and everyone was quick to disqualify the ascent.

However, Dawn Wall also has 3 8c+/9a pitches and a bunch mid-8s. We are clearly able to discard all questions about style, blinded by these numbers. I'm not totally convinced that the physical difficulty can justify the lack of style. What do you think a team of Adam Ondra and Alex Megos could do on a big wall with rap-bolting, 6 seasons of top-roping, and a support team of Pietro Dal Pra and Arnaud Petit, say?

[Will Hunt]

I think the obvious concessions that have been made in style are forgivable. People are quick to point out that the tactics would be mocked if they were being used on a lesser climb or something in the Himalaya but this is exactly the point. Those tactics are no longer used because the objectives they achieve are no longer cutting edge. It would be unthinkable nowadays (to 'real climbers' at any rate) to use the same tactics as Hilary to climb Everest for instance, because with modern equipment and style it is simply not necessary.
This is an attitude that is accepted throughout the sport, the harder you're trying, and particularly if you're doing something new or at a new level of difficulty, the more relaxed you can be about style. Shark got a load of shit for using a ladder on WSS, nobody makes a peep when people use a ladder to work highball 8Bs. If somebody top ropes End of the Affair before leading it then it is completely un-newsworthy.

The guys in Yosemite are making a great leap forward in terms of difficulty and, crucially, are letting everybody know exactly how high the bar has been set. They've cracked the puzzle and it is now for the future repeaters to match or improve upon the style. To assert that Ondra or Megos or whoever could piss the Dawn Wall is completely irrelevant because they aren't pissing the Dawn Wall. More than that, they aren't doing bleeding edge difficulty new routes on big walls. Caldwell and Jorgeson are the only people operating at this level of difficulty on this terrain. It may be in the future that using siege tactics on Dawn Wall, or even new routes of a comparable length and difficulty, is seen as passé, but for now it is not, and as such the tactics are fair.

[Danny]

More of interest for the ensuing discussion rather than the article itself, with Andrew Bisharat defending the style to the hilt (not surprising really):

http://fringesfolly.com/2015/01/05/what-nobody-is-saying-about-the-dawn-wall/

I think I mostly agree with Bisharat here. The concept of style seems pretty abstract given the difficulties - have-at-it-in-big-boots ledge shuffling this aint (as I think I already said) - but I do see why people raise an eyebrow at the tactics.

It's not so much the style (every major el cap route has been established with a melee of siege, trickery and compromise), but the fact we get to follow it minute by minute in gory detail.

We always knew Father Christmas wasn't real, but now we get to observe the mechanics of the deception.

EDIT: and what Will said.

[T_B]

Those tactics are no longer used because the objectives they achieve are no longer cutting edge.

Except that they have been in relatively recent years e.g. Russians on the north face of Jannu.

You've got e.g. the Belgians pushing big wall climbing standards using traditional tactics e.g. Asgard Jamming.

Also, on El Cap, Leo Holding tried to climb the Prophet ground up, before resorting to top down tactics did he not? And he didn't place a bolt every few feet. The Huber routes have sketchy pitches on them gear wise. So 'style' has been important to those pushing the boundaries of big wall free climbing and freeing new routes on El Cap, albeit on ones that are at a much lower technical level.

That Bisharat article is excellent. Does it feel like an 'adventure' up there? I bet it did the first few years that Cauldwell was exploring the route, seeing whether it was possible, but now? Hmm. The push is obviously an internal 'journey' for the climbers, the doubts, the resolve, the skin. But that internal journey chimes more with what you go through bouldering and sport climbing at your limit than big wall and traditional climbing.

[Will Hunt]

albeit on ones that are at a much lower technical level.

And there is the crux of it all.

[jwi]

Normally long routes are put up in a way that put premium on good style, while single pitch/short routes are put up in the most convenient way. Most long routes all over the world is put up in a more traditional style. Even 8c/9a pitches on long routes have been put up in good style.

Climbers do as they want of course.

Not at all convinced that hard climbing can justify bad style in "the mountains". If we accept that El Cap is roadside cragging, then anything goes really.

[petejh]

Jwi and TB. This. The style should be questioned, on any first ascent. On such a heavily publicised first ascent as this on one of the world's iconc big walls it matters even more that the style should be questioned. Bringing an iconic big wall down to the climber's level is a criticism that seems to ring true to many people in this case. It's inevitable anyway - publicise something this heavily and it's going to be examined.

The line may be inspirational but I'm not at all inspired by the climbers' style. There's nothing in their style of ascent that makes me think 'yeah this inspires me to want to try to emulate that on xyz'. I'm sure kevin Jorgenson and Tommy Caldwell will get over me not being inspired by their style in about, ohh, a millisecond... but I'm clearly not the only one.
I think the climbers have sacrificed any trace of good style for the sake of 'a very big tick'. A recurrent theme throughout the history of climbing. But the history of climbing is also full of inspirational difficult first ascents done in good style and these stories endure and inspire. I think sometimes this gets forgotten by those making the perfectly valid point that 'without them doing this in poor style, there wouldn't be a route for others to then try in better style. The bottom line is the route could have waited for an ascent in better style than this. [cliche]It isn't going anywhere.[/cliche]

There are many improvements in style that could be made but to me it seems the main two are:
1. Drop the ridiculous 'Himalayan seige-style' sherpa support teams. i.e. be self-contained as a team.
'Team', remember that idea? A self-contained team of four climbers sharing leads is a more sensible way to approach this sort of challenge then trying to go as 2 individuals both desiring the glory of having climbed every pitch clean and thus requiring massive outside support to achieve this individual ambiton. It appears to me that self-gloryfication of two people has trumped the good sense of tackling the challenge in the manner that most fits the challenge, as a self-contained team ascent of three, four or five people. That to me would have been a far more aspirational style.
2. Go ground up. This would necessitate multiple trips and failures. But then so has this current ascent.

[Danny]

You've got e.g. the Belgians pushing big wall climbing standards using traditional tactics e.g. Asgard Jamming.

I really admire the Belgians, but like Will says, standards are hardly comparable with Dawn Wall. And you can tell from the way most of their stuff is filmed that they take the frig up, camp above and redpoint below highpoint approach to anything more than slightly difficult (by the Dawn Wall yardstick).

[abarro81]

Pete - point 1 would have even more people dissing the style, a la salathe first ascent. And 2 wouldn't have worked as presumably top down inspection was needed to work out where the line was going to go?

[petejh]

There'll always be criticisms - that's what forums do! - but I can't see how a self-contained team could be deemed less inspirational than a massive outside support crew.

Bolt ground up, on hooks. It happens. In fact it's the style being aspired to by some Canadians on some of the mini-big-walls being developed in the Rockies - ironically on a wall that TC and Sonnie Trotter bailed from attempting.

[abarro81]

Setting aside 'inspirarional' , I can see how I'd want to lead all the main pitches on my project even if it meant worse logistical style being used.
Wouldn't bolting ground up on hooks just mean shit loads of bolts all over the wall on pitches that are dead ends? Sounds shit style to me!

[petejh]

Yes it would. Climbing isn't a 'leave no trace' activity though is it, despite the well-intentioned tag lines.

And 'wanting to lead all the main pitches on my proj' is fine - and expected - on small routes. When applied to a mile of granite wall it can leads to circuses. It's a case of biting off more than you can chew adn then fudging the style to compensate. For the sake of what? The team ethic suits the terrain better, and that to me is what climbing should and mostly does aim at doing.

[Danny]

...the history of climbing is also full of inspirational difficult first ascents done in good style and these stories endure and inspire.

This.

Who knows what the history of climbing is really full of? Bullshit, hyperbole and tall tales of daring-do make up a good part of it, but we'll never really know how much. Especially where free climbing is concerned: sneaky rest points, tension and outright frigging on otherwise 'free' ascents. Making shit up is also undoubtedly common.

At least the style here is fully transparent. I agree that the 4 person fully self-contained approach would've been both preferable and, with the glory of armchair hindsight, probably achievable.

[Danny]

But not with a ground up approach, obv. Tend to agree with Barrows here: that's your ticket to a lot of dead ends and a big bolty mess.

[petejh]

Yeah a big bolty mess is for sure a likely possibility of going ground-up but it's hardly much different to the current scene.

And a circus act of unused and redundant support teams - unneeded by our self-contained heroes on the wall  -  could just as well chop the redundant bolty mess couldn't they, if they so desired.

[ghisino]

Wouldn't bolting ground up on hooks just mean shit loads of bolts all over the wall on pitches that are dead ends?

thats a very common style in the alps, probably the most common on limestone hardcore sport MP like wendenstocke or raetikon, and it doesn't seem to me that those routes are full of "dead end" leftovers
(even if you can occasionally find them in topos. Maybe one every 20 pitches?)

a mix of experience, boldness, featured rock and careful observation with binoculars is probably needed not to let that happen.

[abarro81]

We'll have to disagree on the ground up bolting thing - I think a good route with a line based on top down working is fine, and have no issues with it.

"For the sake of what" - presumably for the sake of them being happy with what they'd done. If I one day learn to jam and go try salathe I'd not be happy unless I'd lead the headwall pitch, even if that meant logistical compromises. I suspect their overriding concern is what makes them happy, with being inspirational a secondary factor..

Ghisino - I'm no granite expert, but my presumption is that it's much easier to climb yourself into a dead end on it than on lime?

[T_B]

Who knows what the history of climbing is really full of? Bullshit, hyperbole and tall tales of daring-do make up a good part of it, but we'll never really know how much. Especially where free climbing is concerned: sneaky rest points, tension and outright frigging on otherwise 'free' ascents. Making shit up is also undoubtedly common.

At least the style here is fully transparent.

  that's a good point, I must admit.

Wouldn't bolting ground up on hooks just mean shit loads of bolts all over the wall on pitches that are dead ends? Sounds shit style to me!

Rivets. Then take em out. That's how Croft did his routes ground up on the Incredible Hulk in the High Sierras, for example. But that also has its own problems, with routes ending up over-bolted in my experience...

[reeve]

I think ground-up bolting sounds like a slightly perverse idea, when they're climbing a route based around an existing aid line. Who would really have the strength of character to head up into a possible dead-end on possible 9a terrain when you could just aid up an existing A2 pitch and swing across on an ab rope? (I'm not sure exactly how close they are to the existing pitches of New Dawn, so this probably isn't possible for each pitch as they now exist, but it just sounds impractical beyond reason to try ground up bolting on this).

1. Drop the ridiculous 'Himalayan seige-style' sherpa support teams. i.e. be self-contained as a team.
'Team', remember that idea? A self-contained team of four climbers sharing leads is a more sensible way to approach this sort of challenge then trying to go as 2 individuals both desiring the glory of having climbed every pitch clean and thus requiring massive outside support to achieve this individual ambiton. It appears to me that self-gloryfication of two people has trumped the good sense of tackling the challenge in the manner that most fits the challenge, as a self-contained team ascent of three, four or five people. That to me would have been a far more aspirational style.

Pete, for clarification, by this do you mean one person lead and the others jug that pitch, then change who leads?

[petejh]

Haven't climbed in the Sierra's but the over-bolting thing on previously bold ground-up bolted routes is very common, and seems a consequence of subsequent parties coming along and adding from the safety of the original placements. Hard to know how to stop it, that's people...

Alex - Obviously it's reasonable to want to climb the money pitches on a classic route like the Salathe, I would too. The Salthe isn't a cutting edge new route and it really doesn't matter to anybody else how you climb it. It's been done in near perfect style already.
On a cutting edge new route on one of the most iconic big walls and in such highly publicised circumstances - their own chosing -  I'd argue that style does matter. Thousands of climbers are watching this, and millions of joe public.
Don't get me wrong - I do think it's great that the route is going down. But part of me thinks 'well if this than what about...'. It isn't a particulaly admirable precedent to set for big wall climbing.

Pete, for clarification, by this do you mean one person lead and the others jug that pitch, then change who leads?

As long as 'a leader' in the team leads all pitches clean and in sequence then personally I wouldn't care much what the seconds do. Obviously the best style would be the seconds follow clean. But the self-contained nature, for me, trumps 'individual clean ascent of every pitch but supported by hordes of sherpas and camping high' - I think it's important to use the same argument that's being used to support TC and KJ's style, but apply it to my definition of good style:
i.e. This is a first ascent and improvements can follow.

I just think the style bar could/should have been set a little higher in the first place than has been set in this case.

[Will Hunt]

I'm curious. To those calling the style into question: if/when they top out, will you deem that they have done the first free ascent of Dawn Wall or will you say "back around"?

[Doylo]

As if anyone would have grounded up this thing. It took years swinging about from above just to find a feasible way up it. And I don't agree Megos and Ondra would be able to improve much on this ascent and cream it like some have suggested.  Caldwell is the best in the world at this horrendously technical granite. It's taken years of dedication to get to the point where these pitches are even feasible (plus absolutely dialling the big wall logistics). All his other achievements are dwarfed by this thing. He did The Nose and Freerider both in a day which is pretty much beyond anyone else in the world.  It is an obscene route and I guess the question is does the difficulty justify the style of ascent.  I can see why people have misgivings about the style but if that's what it takes to make it a reality at this time then so be it!

[petejh]

No absolutely they've done the first ascent. And it's awesome.

And their ascent required bolting on abseil, top-roping and extensive tick marking, teams of sherpas, camping above the highpoint, loads of sponsorship and media money. These things aren't commonplace in this environment.

It is what it is.

Chris I think there's always a danger of believing the halo effect. History is full of things that were considered impossible. You will be proved wrong, you might not be around to see it.

[Doylo]

After getting spanked on Yosemite V4s recently I can only imagine how heinous those vertical moves are that have taken Caldwell so long to figure out. Standing on your feet to the max!