[Muenchener]

If I one day learn to jam and go try salathe I'd not be happy unless I'd lead the headwall pitch, even if that meant logistical compromises.

These "logistical compromises" hopefully not to include the hanging belay in the middle of the pitch 

[Will Hunt]

And their ascent required bolting on abseil, top-roping and extensive tick marking, teams of sherpas, camping above the highpoint, loads of sponsorship and media money. These things aren't commonplace in this environment.

All of which may be frowned upon to a greater or lesser extent but are not expressly forbidden by the rules.
Am I right in thinking that Dawn Wall, by the end of this, will have had a more valid free ascent than The Nose? Haven't all the free ascents of The Nose used the chipped Jardine Traverse?


The style is crap (I think I may have been the first on the thread during this push to raise the ethical question) but big-bloody-deal. They're climbing 9a on Yosemite granite with their vital organs hanging out of the cavernous holes in their fingertips! I know that 9a is a grade that it is easy to be flippant about now but the reality is that it is still accessed by only a very few. Is anybody else doing it on granite?

[Rocksteady]

The media circus and the support team does sort of raise eyebrows. But I also think that this is the absolute cutting edge and Tommy Caldwell is in a pretty good position to know where he is on Yosemite ethics.

I do wonder though if TC will go back later and try to improve on his own style on the Dawn Wall. Like Lynn Hill did after she first freed the Nose.

I also wonder if there's an element of TC laying down the gauntlet for the wunderkinds. He's sort of saying - this is the hardest route I can do, at the cutting edge of my generation (9a+ redpointer, big wall specialist). Can you do better? I bet Ondra/Megos will, sooner or later.

It's all very exciting. Though I was ascribing the levels of extreme busyness at the climbing wall the other night to the media coverage.

[Johnny Brown]

I think pretty much what Doylo said. Caldwell is in a league of his won on this stuff and his exploits in Patagonia show how far ahead of the pack he is. Not at all sure Ondra (and even less sure about Megos, now I've seen him) would not be totally out of his element on this.

[tomtom]

(and even less sure about Megos, now I've seen him)

I think Dave should have a crack at Dawn Wall next

[r-man]

I know that 9a is a grade that it is easy to be flippant about now but the reality is that it is still accessed by only a very few. Is anybody else doing it on granite?

Ondra. Change, 9b+.

But you mean vertical granite. Which is a fair point. Vertical climbing is so much harder to do than steep stuff, even forgetting about multi pitch issues. There aren't many single pitch routes above 9a on vertical rock. It's the same with boudering - how many vertical problems at 8A and up, compared to number of 8B and up on steep rock? On the whole they are more painful, more skin shredding, more beta intensive, more weather dependant.

[T_B]

Caldwell is in a league of his won on this stuff and his exploits in Patagonia show how far ahead of the pack he is. Not at all sure Ondra (and even less sure about Megos, now I've seen him) would not be totally out of his element on this.

How many times have we seen the top sport climbers apply their strength etc to big wall objectives e.g. Glowacz, Hubers? I really don't think that pulling on matchsticks and standing on small foot holds requires some kind of mysterious zen-like ability. Less so than hard cracks. I suspect Ondra would apply himself quite well to that style of climbing if he wanted to. Probably wouldn't be any use at hauling mind 

[csurfleet]

Where are the lines of bolts that they have supposedly added for this? I know that in the interviews they talk about long sections on dodgy gear, and that they have only placed the minimum of bolts they thought they could do it with, and nothing to change the character of the aid route where they use the same line.

In the videos on progression Tommy is taking pretty hefty falls on the bolted face pitches.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I concur with many of the comments of Pete, jwi, T_B, Danny etc about the style of ascent, in the sense that there are questions which are difficult not to ask.

After all, we all try to relate to things through the eye of our own experience - aren't we all exploring through some sort of internal journey? Maybe we just choose not to acknowledge this.

I think it's a dodgy path to go down, to offset, justify, or turn a blind eye to what you might call" poor style", simply on the basis of the difficulty of the climbing. Just think of the implications of this over time. Also, I'm not comfortable with the notion of making claims about what may or may not be forgivable - I don't want to deny myself whatever cop-out options I might find useful in the future!

I have found it tremendously inspiring to follow, in particular, Kevin Jorgesun's efforts - especially having learnt that he hadn't redpointed any of the hard pitches until this attempt, and also wonderful to relate to the romance of Caldwell's obvious love affair with this wall. Yet at the same time, there is a lot about their approach that I want to understand better.

I'm hoping to understand their respective journeys better - isn't that what we all try to do?

So many of the questions people are asking seem to come from a degree of misunderstanding about the extent to which certain tactics have been used, and I think we could all perhaps benefit from more detail here. Maybe we're all a little guilty of trying to design our own myths to take from the struggle - our own idols even! - and a lot of the discussion is directed in this way, rather than careful consideration of what consensus we can arrive at about where the line between valid ascent/not valid lies.

So much of this seems to be a case of "Don't fancy yours much." .. "What! Are you blind?!"..

In our own battle over how we're trying to call it, I think we're probably also guilty of second guessing the motives behind things like staying on the wall, assuming it's harder - and via some strange non sequitur therefore oddly "purer" to do it that way - when it may actually be easier to stay on the wall, given the relatively short window of opportunity afforded by weather and conditions.

So much of this is resonant of the conflict between the hedonism of Harding and the idealism of Robbins - two extremes born of a greater unifying desire that linked them.

One thing is for sure.. maybe! .. this has to be the culmination of the longest ascent - spread over many years - of any new route on El Cap.

[Moo]

Just to be clear, when I said future wads, I meant just that, Megos and Ondra are current wads I'm talking maybe a couple of generations down the line or maybe even further.

I also wasn't trying to claim that I don't think this is a genuine ascent. TC and KJ have obviously climbed from the bottom of this wall to the top with no points of aid so how could it be anything other than a free ascent.

All I said was the route is there to be improved on in style by future generations.

[SA Chris]

I'm really pleased they've completed it.

That way we can stop hearing about it.

[reeve]

I think it's a dodgy path to go down, to offset, justify, or turn a blind eye to what you might call" poor style", simply on the basis of the difficulty of the climbing. Just think of the implications of this over time.

Although I agree in principle, isn't this what we do when someone headpoints a new route on grit? It is taken as read that a hard new route will have been top-roped first, even though it is poorer style than it being onsighted. But given that say E8+ is too hard / bold / unknown for someone to just walk up to and have a go at, of course it should be accepted as a sensible and reasonable way to approach it. Similarly on El Cap, I think it is self-evident that having some friends delivering food and water is going to make it easier, as is having worked the pitches and added a few bolts to free-climbing variations; but given the difficulty of many of the individual pitches, the logistics of staying up there so long* and so on, the compromises in style are no greater than what are accepted as obviously required for hard routes in other types of climbing


*As an aside, for me, I would find staying up there but being delivered food and water harder than hauling my own stuff and having an indefinite period in which to climb it. It would mean one could make an ascent in which each pitch was only redpointed once over several seasons. To me, that seems far less in the spirit of things,

[T_B]

In our own battle over how we're trying to call it, I think we're probably also guilty of second guessing the motives behind things like staying on the wall, assuming it's harder - and via some strange non sequitur therefore oddly "purer" to do it that way - when it may actually be easier to stay on the wall, given the relatively short window of opportunity afforded by weather and conditions.

I don't think so Dave. I'm sure Tommy would jug out and give young Fitz a hug if it was 'allowed'!

[DAVETHOMAS90]

 

Hi Moo, my post wasn't particularly directed at anything you had said in particular - although there is a distinction between "free" and "free ascent"! 

And to S_A_C .. booh hoo! 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

In reply to Reeve.

Mmm. I think we have to decide what it "is", or might be, first, before evaluating style.

We may justify poorer style apropos difficulty at a personal level, but that is a choice, and what we mean by "acceptable" seems to have a different meaning in different contexts - i.e. ethically, valid? etc etc.

Right. Climbing!...

[tomtom]

A metaphor (of sorts)...

One of my colleagues (A) has done the coast to coast bike ride in sections with his partner. Done over a few months weekend at a time section at a time. For them this is a great achievement - and they have 'done' the coast to coast.

Another colleague (B) has done the coast to coast in a week (or however long it took him - but effectively in one push). He stayed in a B&B every night.

Colleague (C) has done the coast to coast in a week but camped and took all his gear (tent, food etc..) with him.

Of course where this breaks down is that most able bodied humans could do A given enough time (none of the hills/sections are impossibe and FFS you could always push...) ~ whereas on Dawn wall there are only a given number of people in the world who could do the hardest pitch(s)...

Anyway - I think we should celebrate as these guys have done something hard - that took massive ammounts of time and commitment (before and during) - and that no-one has done before. Its a great achievement - and like many firsts, we probably wont find out how hard and truly significant it is until someone else tries, fails or succeeds.... Until then - bravo - and its raised the profile of climbing in a very positive light to the rest of the world...

[reeve]

As long as 'a leader' in the team leads all pitches clean and in sequence then personally I wouldn't care much what the seconds do. Obviously the best style would be the seconds follow clean. But the self-contained nature, for me, trumps 'individual clean ascent of every pitch but supported by hordes of sherpas and camping high' - I think it's important to use the same argument that's being used to support TC and KJ's style, but apply it to my definition of good style:
i.e. This is a first ascent and improvements can follow.

I just think the style bar could/should have been set a little higher in the first place than has been set in this case.

I'm quite perplexed that so many people (here and on UKC) seem to hold a similar sentiment as in your final sentence Pete. I can see that obviously there have been compromises in style, but I don't even think that their tactics are the worst style I've seen used on El Cap, despite being on a much harder route!

No absolutely they've done the first ascent. And it's awesome.

And their ascent required bolting on abseil, top-roping and extensive tick marking, teams of sherpas, camping above the highpoint, loads of sponsorship and media money. These things aren't commonplace in this environment.

It is what it is.

Of the things in your list here, bolts are fairly common on El Cap (although used sparingly, I personally thought that it was fairly pragmatic on the routes I've been on and didn't detract), top roping and tick marking is common-place (bordering on ubiquitous on Freerider), assistance from 'sherpas' (or just friends) is usual and not very different from stashing gear for style points IMO, and camping above your high point on such a project just makes sense in some circumstances (for example, when TC had done pitch 15 and KJ was yet to complete it, would they have to sleep on different portaledges a pitch apart?). El Cap sits a little uncomfortably close to being a convenient cragging area, with the inconvenience of being so bloody big. I'm sure that their intimate knowledge of the route reduced their feeling of adventure and the purity of style (these two things I think are analogous) but isn't that just the nature of working routes over time? Dave MacLeod on the Longhope route, Lynn Hill on the Nose...

As you might be able to tell from my barely restrained evangelical defence of them, I think this is the raddest thing in climbing.

[Johnny Brown]

I suspect Ondra would apply himself quite well to that style of climbing if he wanted to. Probably wouldn't be any use at hauling mind 

I'm sure he would too, but the point is he hasn't shown much enthusiasm so far. It strikes me as a bit disrespectful to the like of Tommy to say, oh yeah but Ondra would be better than you. The fact is he isn't.

And by 'out of their element' I was more talking about spending weeks on a wall than pulling on tinies. The 5.12 cracks would require some acclimatisation too. No one's denying folk have potential, but let's not gets too excited about it when that's all it is. Case in point - Sharma had a session up there with Tommy, but he's not there now is he?

[jwi]

Since they have transformed Dawn Wall to a sport climb, I think it is fair game to point out that the very best all round sport climbers can do pitches quite a lot harder than 9a (even on vertical technical climbs).

(Totally off topic: I saw a video where Ondra cruised Hlaska, a fairly non-trivial off-width crack in Teplice. It's very scary up to the first bolt as well.)

[T_B]

I suspect Ondra would apply himself quite well to that style of climbing if he wanted to. Probably wouldn't be any use at hauling mind 

I'm sure he would too, but the point is he hasn't shown much enthusiasm so far. It strikes me as a bit disrespectful to the like of Tommy to say, oh yeah but Ondra would be better than you. The fact is he isn't.

Hmm, not sure that's being disrespectful? I doubt TC is that precious either. Ondra might not want to get involved at this stage in his career as he chooses to climb all over the place and do comps. In contrast TC is in his 30s, has a young kid and El Cap is basically his local crag.

[JMB]

Since they have transformed Dawn Wall to a sport climb, I think it is fair game to point out that the very best all round sport climbers can do pitches quite a lot harder than 9a (even on vertical technical climbs).

(Totally off topic: I saw a video where Ondra cruised Hlaska, a fairly non-trivial off-width crack in Teplice. It's very scary up to the first bolt as well.)

How many sport climbs have entire pitches protected with nothing but birdbeaks?

[petejh]

None since Kristian sorted out Peak lime.

[fatdoc]

More of interest for the ensuing discussion rather than the article itself, with Andrew Bisharat defending the style to the hilt (not surprising really):

http://fringesfolly.com/2015/01/05/what-nobody-is-saying-about-the-dawn-wall/

I think I mostly agree with Bisharat here. The concept of style seems pretty abstract given the difficulties - have-at-it-in-big-boots ledge shuffling this aint (as I think I already said) - but I do see why people raise an eyebrow at the tactics.

It's not so much the style (every major el cap route has been established with a melee of siege, trickery and compromise), but the fact we get to follow it minute by minute in gory detail.

We always knew Father Christmas wasn't real, but now we get to observe the mechanics of the deception.

EDIT: and what Will said.

Agree, what Will and Danny said..

Except the Xmas thing, course he's real.

[Will Hunt]

I suspect Ondra would apply himself quite well to that style of climbing if he wanted to. Probably wouldn't be any use at hauling mind 

I'm sure he would too, but the point is he hasn't shown much enthusiasm so far. It strikes me as a bit disrespectful to the like of Tommy to say, oh yeah but Ondra would be better than you. The fact is he isn't.

Hmm, not sure that's being disrespectful? I doubt TC is that precious either. Ondra might not want to get involved at this stage in his career as he chooses to climb all over the place and do comps. In contrast TC is in his 30s, has a young kid and El Cap is basically his local crag.

That is sooooooooo dismissive of Tommy it is unreal! Do you think that El Cap is his local crag by some happy coincidence? That he's just a guy who grew up near Yosemite and decided to have a crack at this old climbing malarkey and a few weeks later was doing Dawn Wall?

People on this thread need to realise that trotting out the assertion that 'Climber X could do it with his pants round his ankles so Climber TC/KJ is obviously not at the cutting edge' is totally bereft of logic.

You might as well say that God could do Dawn Wall without seige tactics.

You might as well say that people bouldering 8C could do any route on Peak Lime because the individual moves aren't that hard.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

Chalk with cheese.

You are trying to compare the achievments of today with those of the future, and where would any climbing (particularly gritstone) be if you applied the same criticisms there? Like saying in 1997 "Seb did a really shit job on Meshuga because there are sport climbers who could flash those moves".

They are not the same game and until Climber X does come along and improve on the style then any criticism is meaningless because the climbers in question have been honest about their style and have not broken any fundamental rules of the game.

[T_B]

Sorry, wasn't meant to be. Yes, he's ahead of the pack, I just don't think you're comparing chalk and cheese when bouldering/sport climbing tactics are used to this extent on a big wall.