[Kingy]

Thought I'd start a chuffing thread so here goes... I just wondered how people defined '1st redpoint' or 'second go' using the 8a spew terminology? I always thought it was not the first time you went on lead after numerous independant toprope/ onsight attempts and did the route. If this was the case then you could thrash a route to death toproping it say 50 times and then go for the lead as a formality and then casually say yeah I did it 'first redpoint'! If I try to onsight something, fail and lower off, stick a toprope up it, work it properly, lower off and rest and then go for the redpoint, this is not a first but a second redpoint to me as I have attempted the route 2 times prior to my successful lead (once on lead, once on toprope with rests on the ground inbetween). Whether you were on lead or a topper, working individual sections or linking from the ground it makes no difference, these are all still 'goes'. I suppose there is a grey area if you simply rest in your harness half way up the route and then carry on working the route thus technically preventing you starting another attempt by avoiding resting on the ground. Maybe this is pedantry though!!   

Similarly, if you do a route '4th go', I take this to include any toprope attempts with rests on the ground inbetween and not simply the 4th time you went on lead discounting all your previous toprope goes. Does anybody with more experience of climbing in France/ Spain than me know how the continentals do this? Any thoughts?

[Paz]

It's just second go, your first go at the redpoint as your first go is a go at the onsight or flash by default.  I don't think you'd normally top rope the fuck out of a sport route to this extent (though it can be easier to work the moves on some).  If you're going to top rope a sport route 50 times then you want to claim `1st headpoint'.

[Duma]

Reminds me of this thread.

Expect you'll get more interest over here

[Kingy]

Reminds me of this thread.

I don't give a f*ck about preclipping but I think this is worthy of discussion.

[Kingy]

If you're going to top rope a sport route 50 times then you want to claim `1st headpoint'.

Why doesn't somebody tell this to steve Roberts!! lol

[north_country_boy]

Generally, i'd count a lead as a RP, but then do you define dogging up a route putting the draws in it as a lead/RP? If I define a route I did as "did it 2nd go" it would be literally my 2nd go up the route whether the 1st was a dog or a flash/onsight attempt.

But I tend not to ever TR as it could lead to the inevitable "can i now turn it around on the sharp end question....?"

[dave]

the whole "1st redpoint" thing is meaningless when looked at out of context in isolation. for example i could say i did OOMT 1st redpoint, which makes me look like quite the cock about town, but what that doesn't tell you is the 4 years i spent on an off trying the first 3 moves. its meaningless as a tool for evaluating performance, though i can understand people wanting to record it for their own personal reference.

[Kingy]

Yeah thats the way I count the goes as well, even dogging up grabbing draws or with a clipstick counts as a 'go'. Where I differ from you is that I wuss out frequently on the blunt end to work out individual sections...maybe I should get bigger cahonas or summat. I take my lead from Yuji who apparently frequently intensely topropes his projects prior to the big lead. I realise now that it is actually easier to work stuff on the dog, taking yer brains out for the lob where necessary!! The rope stretch on the topper is horrendous on a route of any length and actually makes me climb worse through the fear of sliding down the crag on rope stretch/ inattentive belaying, it gives me the fear.

Nice, glad we got that one cleared up.

[Kingy]

the whole "1st redpoint" thing is meaningless when looked at out of context in isolation. for example i could say i did OOMT 1st redpoint, which makes me look like quite the cock about town, but what that doesn't tell you is the 4 years i spent on an off trying the first 3 moves. its meaningless as a tool for evaluating performance, though i can understand people wanting to record it for their own personal reference.

Yes OOMT is a very bouldery route at the start and atypical of longer routes. Technically every attempt on the boulder problem would count as a go where you lowered to the ground if you were working it on a rope or if you fell off bouldering. If you went back to the ground, the next 'go' starts when you try again. I agree that the nth redpoint concept in meaningless for short bouldery routes but perhaps quite interesting for the stamina jobs. I guess the yardstick turns into days of effort rather than goes after a certain point. I never could be bothered counting how many times I had tried a project but vaguely recall the number of sessions I've had on things.

[galpinos]

Surely "1st redpoint" is just that, their first go on the sharp end? It's not the same as saying "1st go/attempt/etc", it's specific. Whether you'd top-roped it twice or twenty times before going for it on the lead, if you got it first attempt leading it'd be "1st redpoint".

Fortunately, it doesn't matter, otherwise we'd argue over this rubbish for ages.....

[Andy F]

1st redpoint to me mean's first go on the sharp end, despite any number of top-ropes etc. 2nd go means 2nd attempt at the route, which is much more impressive.

[Bonjoy]

 A 'first redpoint' is the first time I try to redpoint a route (the clue is in the name) and I assume that to be what other people mean. If someone says they did something first redpoint I don't assume they pissed the route as I know first redpoint can and does include heavily pre-worked routes.
 'First redpoint' isn't a reliable measure of anything. There are for me three levels of ascent on a sport route, onsight, flash or redpoint. The number of redpoints has little/no added value, first redpoint is a good as tenth. Once you've blown the flash/onsight the only vaguely meaningful measure of subsequent effort taken is the number of days taken to complete.

[Paz]

I think there's a lot to be said for fast redpoints, even if they're fudgepoints.  There's that challenge of 7 7s in a day, 7 routes that you've not been on before and complete in a day, it's actually quite hard in practise, even if they're long and juggy you need a lot of stamina.  In essence 10th RP is the same as 1st RP, but that's 9 wasted gos that you could've spent trying to get something else done as well (do you get extra points on 8a.nu btw, even then wasting 50 gos on top rope on a project might not be the way to max your score - and I hope noone's still assuming 8a.nu is the defintiive oracle of all sport climing knowledge and we've all realises it's just run by a bloke called Bjorn in his bedroom in Sweden). 

Maybe none of this applies if you really are at your limit, in which case I should be trying harder routes, but I've got a lot better this winter by climbing a fuck of a lot at 2 or 3 grades below my then limit, the stuff I can do 1st RP or at least be sure of in a day, instead of the seige warfare of the past.

[Kingy]

It seems that a lot of people are saying 1st RP means the first time you got on lead. I respect this viewpoint but for me perhaps 2nd go and 1st repoint mean the same thing and are interchangeable terms, it just happens to be the way 8a.nu is set up - I'm sure if we were to ask Bjorn, he would say 2nd go means 1st repoint.

Thinking back to when repointing was invented in the 80's (by Kurt Albert wasn't it??) you probably weren't officially supposed to toprope stuff prior to your leading from the ground attempt. Therefore the term 1st repoint had some meaning as it was automatically your first attempt to link the route from the ground. It is only toproping that has blurred the meaning slightly here. It is only people too literally interpreting the term 1st repoint as your first lead attempt that has made it meaningless. If it was meaningless in the first place, why was it invented at all?? Answer me that one. I think as long as you are honest about the number of goes, toprope or no, that you have had then you may be able to claim your extra 2 points.... 

[dave]

Seriously Ted, to me the first time you pull off the ground with only the first bolt (or 2 local rules permitting) clipped with the intention of trying to climb to the top then thats your first redpoint attempt, regardless of how much prior practice you've had. Are we saying that 8a.nu are giving out more points for this? If so then thats ridiculous for the reasons we've discussed above.

[Kingy]

I couldn't agree more Dave, yes '2nd go' gets 2 extra points which seems a bit arbitrary in fairness, if you're going to bother giving an extra score, make it 25 at least.

Where I differ slightly from you is that 1st RP means the second time you try/ go on the route. If you choose not to go for the lead from the ground and go on toprope for ease of working then you have elected to blow your chance of the glory of those extra 2 points . you never get that back  chance...ever. This is the way I have always gone about things. I don't believe the '1st repoint, first time on lead' argument as, for the reasons mentioned above, it leads to dodgy claims of 'rapid' ascents.

[north_country_boy]

In the grand scheme of things as Bonjoy stated, anything after flash/onsight is just arbitary, although I do believe 1st RP/2nd go (Without working sections on a TR etc) on the route is still impressive if not only for your own record, and 'in a day' is still impressive also.

However all this about whether TR = a RP is rubbish, in the end it comes down to people being honest with themselves as to how quickly they have done a route.

Pretty similar to the arguement of how people count days on routes.......I.e. due you count going up a route having a quick dog, then a RP but decide its not ideal conditions as a day? or do you use the Mike Lea (and i'm sure others) school of thought, and add up the actual time of a session as a percentage of a day? i.e. 4 hour session, well thats like half/3rd of a day?  ???

[Kingy]

Yeah I agree its a bit pointless but if you're going to have rules re no of RP's, topropes u may as well apply them, otherwise why bother with any classification at all. I guess it comes down to people's individual mindset. I know that Mark Leach was a bit aggrieved that everybody said yeah it took him 46 days when he had had some pretty short sessions but he was being ultra strict with himself. Even a half an hour session counted as a 'day'. I suppose its hard lines if conditions are bad and you have to come down, its a still a day on the route.

As Stone was telling me you could apply the Paul Reeve rule of an evening session counting as half a day as its low quality climbing time as you are knackered from the day at work! Get the violins out 

[Kingy]

Anyway this is all hogwash, I only started this silly thread when I was bored. Lets get out on the rock where it really counts   

[Nigel]

...Even a half an hour session counted as a 'day'. I suppose its hard lines if conditions are bad and you have to come down, its a still a day on the route.

Probably true, much as it will pain people (including myself) to accept this. When you're thinking back over all the rubbish sessions you had where you dogged it, felt shit, then just stripped it without a redpoint, or the days where you dog half way up and there's a wet pocket so you bag it, just ask yourself - would Jerry/Steve/Patxi/Adam have done the route. Answer YES so its a day on the route. Chalk it up!

[webbo]

red point comes from the time in germany when they'd done the moves free they'd paint a red circle on the rock.then when they'd done it in one push with out resting on the gear they'd fill the circle in.

[Jaspersharpe]

...Even a half an hour session counted as a 'day'. I suppose its hard lines if conditions are bad and you have to come down, its a still a day on the route.

Probably true, much as it will pain people (including myself) to accept this. When you're thinking back over all the rubbish sessions you had where you dogged it, felt shit, then just stripped it without a redpoint, or the days where you dog half way up and there's a wet pocket so you bag it, just ask yourself - would Jerry/Steve/Patxi/Adam have done the route. Answer YES so its a day on the route. Chalk it up!

 

I spent about six hours actually on the route on my hardest redpoint when I was younger but as those six hours were spread over 5 days (and four months actually although that's not relevant!) it was a five day ascent. Fair enough as that's how it works. Nowadays I don't care how long something takes as long as I get up it. It's true that a one day/one session ascent is impressive but then so is a siege that takes months but is ultimately successful, albeit impressive in a different way.

Also, I really don't give a toss if someone gets a few extra points on 8a.dogshit for putting SECOND GO on their scorecard when they've spent ages working a route and then got it second redpoint because I don't care how many points anyone has as it's a load of meaningless bollocks. 

would Jerry/Steve/Patxi/Adam have done the route.

Ondra, Long, Sandler or West?

[dave]

I thought he was refering to the original biblical human - I'm adamant.

[travs]

If you think that's bollocks Jasper what about people who record ascents of indoor problems like problems at the school
I guess the question you have to ask is . Are they posting ascents for their own tracking of improvement or are they trying to say 'Hey look at how good I am!'?

[dave]

If you think that's bollocks Jasper what about people who record ascents of indoor problems like problems at the school

or artificial outdoor boulders!