[Carliios]

Anyone have clarity as to whether apprentice wall is fully banned? I posted about it on instagram calling out people for climbing there and loads of people messaged me trying to say it was fine to climb behind the fence but I rebutted all those comments saying that the RAD still says climbing there is banned and could result in prosecution. I’d personally rather not mess up the delicate access at Anston but it seems a lot of people aren’t aware or I’m completely wrong?

[remus]

If you're looking at the access notes on UKC I believe they were posted before the fence was installed. Im not sure there's been an 'official' update since then?

Opinion time: doesn't seem sensible to climb there at the mo given the recent heat from the railway, but if the fence completely separates the area from the tracks you could imagine it being ok if people keep a low profile in future.

[Wellsy]

The fence does completely separate the tracks from the rock, I'd say it's fine, you aren't trespassing on the railway at all after all.

[m.cooke.1421]

I think there are two landowners that cover the bouldering at Anston; the Anston Parish Council and Network Rail. The area of land owned by Network Rail will be wider than just the tracks and could include Apprentice Wall. The fence isn't necessarily on the boundary so you could still be trespassing on land owned by Network Rail.

I spoke to the chairman of the parish council a while ago about bouldering. He said he would be interested in meeting with the BMC as their management plan for the wood suggests they liaise with climbers to encourage a site stewardship role. I don't know if anyone for the BMC has been in touch though.

[Carliios]

I think there are two landowners that cover the bouldering at Anston; the Anston Parish Council and Network Rail. The area of land owned by Network Rail will be wider than just the tracks and could include Apprentice Wall. The fence isn't necessarily on the boundary so you could still be trespassing on land owned by Network Rail.

I spoke to the chairman of the parish council a while ago about bouldering. He said he would be interested in meeting with the BMC as their management plan for the wood suggests they liaise with climbers to encourage a site stewardship role. I don't know if anyone for the BMC has been in touch though.

This was my train of thought (excuse the pun) as well. It may be that network rail own more than just the other side of the fence and could cause further friction so would be good to get some proper clarity there so people know whether they can or can’t go to apprentice wall

[shark]

The fence does completely separate the tracks from the rock, I'd say it's fine, you aren't trespassing on the railway at all after all.

I suspect it’s still their land you are trespassing on though.

UKC says:

“ Restricted Access
There are now access issues on apprentice wall. The railway company have said that infutre anyone caught climbing here could face prosecution for trespassing. As of 09/04/22.“

This text looks to be UKC’s as there is nothing I can see on the BMC RAD about Apprentice Wall other than user comments. As Remus says the text predates the fence being put up. If asked it sounds likely the rail company will say it is still banned.

Caveat emptor

[Droyd]

I could be very wrong, but as far as I can tell the RAD update is based on posts on the 'Peak Lime Bouldering' Facebook group; one written by someone who went to Apprentice Wall and spoke to people who were doing work for the fence, and one by someone who noticed that a 'No Climbing' sign had been put back up at the main entrance to the woods. That seems to have been done by someone doing work there who saw the sign in the weeds and put it back up because it seemed like the right thing to do, and so doesn't seem to suggest any new anti-climber sentiment. Here's the most pertinent FB post:

ANSTON - APPRENTICE WALL ACCESS BANNED?
A couple of us have just popped down to the Apprentice Wall area to find some construction workers digging the ground up underneath and told us they’re putting a fence underneath it. They said that because climbers were posting pictures by the tracks online, Network Rail caught on and are putting up the fence to stop us climbing. 😭

That would seem to suggest that, as with so many other issues in society, the trespassing is less of a problem than the green-tick-spraying hordes of Instagrammers.

[Will Hunt]

What's the nature of the fence? Is it fencing off the railway or fencing off the rock but you can squeeze behind it and climb anyway?


Thoughts which are probably irrelevant and wrong because I don't know the particuar situation:

NSFW  :

Maybe this is naïve of me, but is it not fair to assume that whoever has installed a fence has placed it at the point they don't want people to cross? That's where fences normally go unless they're the kind that have sentry towers at regular intervals.

What Shark said. If somebody asks whether climbing is banned there they will say yes. But presumably they've put the fence up to keep people going there away from the tracks, which implies that they expect people to keep going there, even if they don't want them to.

So if someone climbs there now there's a fence up and the rail company re-state that it's banned, well it was banned anyway so nothing is lost. The risk is on those people who test the access because they might get done for either trespass (not criminal) or trespass on a railway (criminal). I don't know how the law distinguishes whether you're on a railway or not.

[Wellsy]

I think it'd be fine if one is discreet. I certainly wouldn't look down on someone for going there. Might be best not to post any vids of it mind you, which might put some people off going (probably could do with less of that for the whole wood in fact), but I think going and doing Apprentice Wall is okay.

The fence cuts off access to the railway track. You don't need to squeeze through anything, you're entirely on the non-track side.

[Carliios]

This leads to: would causing further friction with network rail jeopardise access at the rest of the crag?

[Wellsy]

As I said, I think its probably fine, but that people should try to keep a low profile. So staying quiet, not pissing around with the fence, not posting videos of themselves online etc. After all it was that which caused all this fuss in the first place, before that loads of people had climbed on that wall.

Access at Anston is delicate but that doesn't mean "don't climb there" it means be careful and discreet.

[Bradders]

I've been to that area of the crag several times and been joined by large groups of local youths mooching about in the woods. I very much doubt they'll stop going there on the crag side of the fence, and as has often been argued with Anston, the presence of climbers may well be a positive influence.

I also doubt that continuing to go would jeopardise access to the rest of the crag. As has been pointed out, the Parish Council have an explicit commitment to engaging with climbers and allowing access.

Network Rail's concern will be purely safety based, and hence the fence helps mitigate that risk. I can't imagine they'll be too bothered by people keeping outside of the fence / off the tracks.

All in all, I would say continued discrete sessions are fine.

On a related note, Carlos I can't decide whether your Insta posts calling people out are great fun / much needed in British climbing, or a bit much. I mean, who appointed you as the judge, jury and executioner? Albeit your heart is clearly in the right place on this at least.

I love your enthusiasm don't get me wrong, we could do with more of it a lot of the time, although maybe best to ask questions first, shoot later?

PS I'm the crag moderator for Anston on UKC but I think the access panel comes from somewhere else; I don't seem to be able to change it.

[Carliios]

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think I’m the judge, jury or executioner but from my point of view whilst the RAD remains yellow, and the lines at apprentice wall all have red crosses next to them I don’t see why people would go there and tick stuff publicly and post about it on their socials.

Sometimes shaming people into not doing dumb shit is really the only way, plus who doesn’t love a good bit of drama on Instagram?

[Bradders]

Well yeah that's what I mean, a bit of drama is always good fun.

I made all the climbs there "confirmed but no longer climbable" in the hope that it would make people think twice. Tbh I also thought it might stop people actually being able to tick things, but no such luck unfortunately.

[jakaitch]

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think I’m the judge, jury or executioner but from my point of view whilst the RAD remains yellow, and the lines at apprentice wall all have red crosses next to them I don’t see why people would go there and tick stuff publicly and post about it on their socials.

Sometimes shaming people into not doing dumb shit is really the only way, plus who doesn’t love a good bit of drama on Instagram?

What else is instagram for?

As for the original point (as others have said) probably best not to aggravate things (e.g. avoid apprentice for now at least)?

[Carliios]

If this site is correct, having looked it may be that network rail do indeed own apprentice wall. Boundary line seems to cover the track but also quite wide either side as well.

http://map.whoownsengland.org/

[Wellsy]

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think I’m the judge, jury or executioner but from my point of view whilst the RAD remains yellow, and the lines at apprentice wall all have red crosses next to them I don’t see why people would go there and tick stuff publicly and post about it on their socials.

Sometimes shaming people into not doing dumb shit is really the only way, plus who doesn’t love a good bit of drama on Instagram?

What else is instagram for?

As for the original point (as others have said) probably best not to aggravate things (e.g. avoid apprentice for now at least)?

If we are avoiding it for now what are we waiting for in terms of going back?

[jakaitch]

Yeah, fair point!
I think it would maybe be best to stay on the cautious side and avoid areas that there has already been some friction as its already somewhat of a 'fragile' crag access-wise.

[Carliios]

I think waiting for BMC volunteers to reach out to the parish council and possibly network rail just to confirm land ownership boundaries and whether climbing is ok there.

The fact that they placed the fence so close to the rock leads me to believe that they wanted to put people off from climbing there otherwise why couldn’t they have put it slightly further away?

[Wellsy]

Okay so in the meantime are we going to just stop climbing in the woods? Because if access to the whole woods is "fragile" due to not having a confirmation from the local council we shouldn't climb there at all, using that logic. That's not really how we all play this game, and indeed there's a lot of places we climb based on probably not all legit within the letter of the law but stay quiet and respectful and it's okay.

Network Rail are bothered by safety as mentioned above, and staying on the other  side of the fence is perfectly safe and therefore should be fine. The Parish Council seemingly are fine with climbing and the SSSI considerations are well known: don't top out, don't clean new buttresses, don't do gardening other than to keep existing buttresses clean and tidy.

If people want to preserve access then follow the SSSI considerations and if you really are concerned then keep the crag off social media, as that's historically what has caused the issues.

All my opinion and nothing more ofc

[Carliios]

I feel like you’re conflating the two things here. I’m just talking about apprentice wall, I don’t see why it’s such a big issue to stay off one sector when there’s loads of others to climb on whilst access rights are confirmed first to ensure there’s no issues in the future?

[jakaitch]

Okay so in the meantime are we going to just stop climbing in the woods? Because if access to the whole woods is "fragile" due to not having a confirmation from the local council we shouldn't climb there at all, using that logic. That's not really how we all play this game, and indeed there's a lot of places we climb based on probably not all legit within the letter of the law but stay quiet and respectful and it's okay.

Network Rail are bothered by safety as mentioned above, and staying on the other  side of the fence is perfectly safe and therefore should be fine. The Parish Council seemingly are fine with climbing and the SSSI considerations are well known: don't top out, don't clean new buttresses, don't do gardening other than to keep existing buttresses clean and tidy.

If people want to preserve access then follow the SSSI considerations and if you really are concerned then keep the crag off social media, as that's historically what has caused the issues.

All my opinion and nothing more ofc

All fair points!

[Wellsy]

I feel like you’re conflating the two things here. I’m just talking about apprentice wall, I don’t see why it’s such a big issue to stay off one sector when there’s loads of others to climb on whilst access rights are confirmed first to ensure there’s no issues in the future?

I don't think there's any access issues at Anston that are unique to AW so while it is all ultimately just climbing and therefore not a big deal I personally think its fine for someone to climb at AW and I may do so myself in the near future

If you're curious I have asked my brother, who is a copper in the BTP, and he can't see an issue as long as you stay on the outside of the fence, off the track. So there is that.

[shark]

I feel like you’re conflating the two things here. I’m just talking about apprentice wall, I don’t see why it’s such a big issue to stay off one sector when there’s loads of others to climb on whilst access rights are confirmed first to ensure there’s no issues in the future?

How would staying off AW help? The issue at AW was with Network Rail who may or may not own the crag and who may or may not be content with climbing on the other side of the fence and turn a blind eye.

The other crags are owned as far as I can tell by the local council ie an entirely different landowner. It also seems to be the case that the Council have contradictory attitude to climbers and climbing OTOH posting notices banning climbing and on the OTOH endorsing a management plan that says they encourage climbing.

My understanding was when the BMC reps attempted to get in touch with the Council in the past they didn’t respond. Maybe a situation where it is best to let sleeping dogs lie.

[Carliios]

I feel like you’re conflating the two things here. I’m just talking about apprentice wall, I don’t see why it’s such a big issue to stay off one sector when there’s loads of others to climb on whilst access rights are confirmed first to ensure there’s no issues in the future?

How would staying off AW help? The issue at AW was with Network Rail who may or may not own the crag and who may or may not be content with climbing on the other side of the fence and turn a blind eye.

The other crags are owned as far as I can tell by the local council ie an entirely different landowner. It also seems to be the case that the Council have contradictory attitude to climbers and climbing OTOH posting notices banning climbing and on the OTOH endorsing a management plan that says they encourage climbing.

My understanding was when the BMC reps attempted to get in touch with the Council in the past they didn’t respond. Maybe a situation where it is best to let sleeping dogs lie.

Wouldn’t staying off AW essentially be “letting sleeping dogs lie” as you say by not rustling any feathers? Surely if there’s a lot of contradiction between what the parish council say and then a fuss is kicked up by Network Rail and they find out, could that not cause more issues?

People can do what they like obviously but I won’t be going there for those reasons, plus the fence is literally pushed up against the rock so not exactly the greatest climbing experience when you have better stuff nearby.

Anyways. The original point of this post was to suss out whether climbing is actually banned or not at AW and so far it seems like a big resounding ‘no one knows’