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Anston Stones Access - Apprentice Wall (Read 6046 times)

Carliios

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Anston Stones Access - Apprentice Wall
July 18, 2022, 10:18:12 am
Anyone have clarity as to whether apprentice wall is fully banned? I posted about it on instagram calling out people for climbing there and loads of people messaged me trying to say it was fine to climb behind the fence but I rebutted all those comments saying that the RAD still says climbing there is banned and could result in prosecution. I’d personally rather not mess up the delicate access at Anston but it seems a lot of people aren’t aware or I’m completely wrong?

remus

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If you're looking at the access notes on UKC I believe they were posted before the fence was installed. Im not sure there's been an 'official' update since then?

Opinion time: doesn't seem sensible to climb there at the mo given the recent heat from the railway, but if the fence completely separates the area from the tracks you could imagine it being ok if people keep a low profile in future.

Wellsy

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The fence does completely separate the tracks from the rock, I'd say it's fine, you aren't trespassing on the railway at all after all.

m.cooke.1421

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I think there are two landowners that cover the bouldering at Anston; the Anston Parish Council and Network Rail. The area of land owned by Network Rail will be wider than just the tracks and could include Apprentice Wall. The fence isn't necessarily on the boundary so you could still be trespassing on land owned by Network Rail.

I spoke to the chairman of the parish council a while ago about bouldering. He said he would be interested in meeting with the BMC as their management plan for the wood suggests they liaise with climbers to encourage a site stewardship role. I don't know if anyone for the BMC has been in touch though.




Carliios

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I think there are two landowners that cover the bouldering at Anston; the Anston Parish Council and Network Rail. The area of land owned by Network Rail will be wider than just the tracks and could include Apprentice Wall. The fence isn't necessarily on the boundary so you could still be trespassing on land owned by Network Rail.

I spoke to the chairman of the parish council a while ago about bouldering. He said he would be interested in meeting with the BMC as their management plan for the wood suggests they liaise with climbers to encourage a site stewardship role. I don't know if anyone for the BMC has been in touch though.

This was my train of thought (excuse the pun) as well. It may be that network rail own more than just the other side of the fence and could cause further friction so would be good to get some proper clarity there so people know whether they can or can’t go to apprentice wall
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 12:01:30 pm by Carliios »

shark

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The fence does completely separate the tracks from the rock, I'd say it's fine, you aren't trespassing on the railway at all after all.

I suspect it’s still their land you are trespassing on though.

UKC says:

“ Restricted Access
There are now access issues on apprentice wall. The railway company have said that infutre anyone caught climbing here could face prosecution for trespassing. As of 09/04/22.“

This text looks to be UKC’s as there is nothing I can see on the BMC RAD about Apprentice Wall other than user comments. As Remus says the text predates the fence being put up. If asked it sounds likely the rail company will say it is still banned.

Caveat emptor

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I could be very wrong, but as far as I can tell the RAD update is based on posts on the 'Peak Lime Bouldering' Facebook group; one written by someone who went to Apprentice Wall and spoke to people who were doing work for the fence, and one by someone who noticed that a 'No Climbing' sign had been put back up at the main entrance to the woods. That seems to have been done by someone doing work there who saw the sign in the weeds and put it back up because it seemed like the right thing to do, and so doesn't seem to suggest any new anti-climber sentiment. Here's the most pertinent FB post:

Quote
ANSTON - APPRENTICE WALL ACCESS BANNED?
A couple of us have just popped down to the Apprentice Wall area to find some construction workers digging the ground up underneath and told us they’re putting a fence underneath it. They said that because climbers were posting pictures by the tracks online, Network Rail caught on and are putting up the fence to stop us climbing. 😭

That would seem to suggest that, as with so many other issues in society, the trespassing is less of a problem than the green-tick-spraying hordes of Instagrammers.

Will Hunt

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What's the nature of the fence? Is it fencing off the railway or fencing off the rock but you can squeeze behind it and climb anyway?


Thoughts which are probably irrelevant and wrong because I don't know the particuar situation:
NSFW  :
Maybe this is naïve of me, but is it not fair to assume that whoever has installed a fence has placed it at the point they don't want people to cross? That's where fences normally go unless they're the kind that have sentry towers at regular intervals.

What Shark said. If somebody asks whether climbing is banned there they will say yes. But presumably they've put the fence up to keep people going there away from the tracks, which implies that they expect people to keep going there, even if they don't want them to.

So if someone climbs there now there's a fence up and the rail company re-state that it's banned, well it was banned anyway so nothing is lost. The risk is on those people who test the access because they might get done for either trespass (not criminal) or trespass on a railway (criminal). I don't know how the law distinguishes whether you're on a railway or not.

Wellsy

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I think it'd be fine if one is discreet. I certainly wouldn't look down on someone for going there. Might be best not to post any vids of it mind you, which might put some people off going (probably could do with less of that for the whole wood in fact), but I think going and doing Apprentice Wall is okay.

The fence cuts off access to the railway track. You don't need to squeeze through anything, you're entirely on the non-track side.

Carliios

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This leads to: would causing further friction with network rail jeopardise access at the rest of the crag?

Wellsy

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As I said, I think its probably fine, but that people should try to keep a low profile. So staying quiet, not pissing around with the fence, not posting videos of themselves online etc. After all it was that which caused all this fuss in the first place, before that loads of people had climbed on that wall.

Access at Anston is delicate but that doesn't mean "don't climb there" it means be careful and discreet.

Bradders

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I've been to that area of the crag several times and been joined by large groups of local youths mooching about in the woods. I very much doubt they'll stop going there on the crag side of the fence, and as has often been argued with Anston, the presence of climbers may well be a positive influence.

I also doubt that continuing to go would jeopardise access to the rest of the crag. As has been pointed out, the Parish Council have an explicit commitment to engaging with climbers and allowing access.

Network Rail's concern will be purely safety based, and hence the fence helps mitigate that risk. I can't imagine they'll be too bothered by people keeping outside of the fence / off the tracks.

All in all, I would say continued discrete sessions are fine.

On a related note, Carlos I can't decide whether your Insta posts calling people out are great fun / much needed in British climbing, or a bit much. I mean, who appointed you as the judge, jury and executioner? Albeit your heart is clearly in the right place on this at least.

I love your enthusiasm don't get me wrong, we could do with more of it a lot of the time, although maybe best to ask questions first, shoot later?

PS I'm the crag moderator for Anston on UKC but I think the access panel comes from somewhere else; I don't seem to be able to change it.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 01:19:43 pm by Bradders »

Carliios

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Don’t get me wrong I don’t think I’m the judge, jury or executioner but from my point of view whilst the RAD remains yellow, and the lines at apprentice wall all have red crosses next to them I don’t see why people would go there and tick stuff publicly and post about it on their socials.

Sometimes shaming people into not doing dumb shit is really the only way, plus who doesn’t love a good bit of drama on Instagram?

Bradders

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Well yeah that's what I mean, a bit of drama is always good fun.

I made all the climbs there "confirmed but no longer climbable" in the hope that it would make people think twice. Tbh I also thought it might stop people actually being able to tick things, but no such luck unfortunately.

jakaitch

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Don’t get me wrong I don’t think I’m the judge, jury or executioner but from my point of view whilst the RAD remains yellow, and the lines at apprentice wall all have red crosses next to them I don’t see why people would go there and tick stuff publicly and post about it on their socials.

Sometimes shaming people into not doing dumb shit is really the only way, plus who doesn’t love a good bit of drama on Instagram?

What else is instagram for?

As for the original point (as others have said) probably best not to aggravate things (e.g. avoid apprentice for now at least)?

Carliios

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If this site is correct, having looked it may be that network rail do indeed own apprentice wall. Boundary line seems to cover the track but also quite wide either side as well.

http://map.whoownsengland.org/

Wellsy

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Don’t get me wrong I don’t think I’m the judge, jury or executioner but from my point of view whilst the RAD remains yellow, and the lines at apprentice wall all have red crosses next to them I don’t see why people would go there and tick stuff publicly and post about it on their socials.

Sometimes shaming people into not doing dumb shit is really the only way, plus who doesn’t love a good bit of drama on Instagram?

What else is instagram for?

As for the original point (as others have said) probably best not to aggravate things (e.g. avoid apprentice for now at least)?

If we are avoiding it for now what are we waiting for in terms of going back?

jakaitch

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Yeah, fair point!
I think it would maybe be best to stay on the cautious side and avoid areas that there has already been some friction as its already somewhat of a 'fragile' crag access-wise.

Carliios

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I think waiting for BMC volunteers to reach out to the parish council and possibly network rail just to confirm land ownership boundaries and whether climbing is ok there.

The fact that they placed the fence so close to the rock leads me to believe that they wanted to put people off from climbing there otherwise why couldn’t they have put it slightly further away?

Wellsy

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Okay so in the meantime are we going to just stop climbing in the woods? Because if access to the whole woods is "fragile" due to not having a confirmation from the local council we shouldn't climb there at all, using that logic. That's not really how we all play this game, and indeed there's a lot of places we climb based on probably not all legit within the letter of the law but stay quiet and respectful and it's okay.

Network Rail are bothered by safety as mentioned above, and staying on the other  side of the fence is perfectly safe and therefore should be fine. The Parish Council seemingly are fine with climbing and the SSSI considerations are well known: don't top out, don't clean new buttresses, don't do gardening other than to keep existing buttresses clean and tidy.

If people want to preserve access then follow the SSSI considerations and if you really are concerned then keep the crag off social media, as that's historically what has caused the issues.

All my opinion and nothing more ofc

Carliios

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I feel like you’re conflating the two things here. I’m just talking about apprentice wall, I don’t see why it’s such a big issue to stay off one sector when there’s loads of others to climb on whilst access rights are confirmed first to ensure there’s no issues in the future?

jakaitch

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Okay so in the meantime are we going to just stop climbing in the woods? Because if access to the whole woods is "fragile" due to not having a confirmation from the local council we shouldn't climb there at all, using that logic. That's not really how we all play this game, and indeed there's a lot of places we climb based on probably not all legit within the letter of the law but stay quiet and respectful and it's okay.

Network Rail are bothered by safety as mentioned above, and staying on the other  side of the fence is perfectly safe and therefore should be fine. The Parish Council seemingly are fine with climbing and the SSSI considerations are well known: don't top out, don't clean new buttresses, don't do gardening other than to keep existing buttresses clean and tidy.

If people want to preserve access then follow the SSSI considerations and if you really are concerned then keep the crag off social media, as that's historically what has caused the issues.

All my opinion and nothing more ofc

All fair points!

Wellsy

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I feel like you’re conflating the two things here. I’m just talking about apprentice wall, I don’t see why it’s such a big issue to stay off one sector when there’s loads of others to climb on whilst access rights are confirmed first to ensure there’s no issues in the future?

I don't think there's any access issues at Anston that are unique to AW so while it is all ultimately just climbing and therefore not a big deal I personally think its fine for someone to climb at AW and I may do so myself in the near future

If you're curious I have asked my brother, who is a copper in the BTP, and he can't see an issue as long as you stay on the outside of the fence, off the track. So there is that.

shark

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I feel like you’re conflating the two things here. I’m just talking about apprentice wall, I don’t see why it’s such a big issue to stay off one sector when there’s loads of others to climb on whilst access rights are confirmed first to ensure there’s no issues in the future?

How would staying off AW help? The issue at AW was with Network Rail who may or may not own the crag and who may or may not be content with climbing on the other side of the fence and turn a blind eye.

The other crags are owned as far as I can tell by the local council ie an entirely different landowner. It also seems to be the case that the Council have contradictory attitude to climbers and climbing OTOH posting notices banning climbing and on the OTOH endorsing a management plan that says they encourage climbing.

My understanding was when the BMC reps attempted to get in touch with the Council in the past they didn’t respond. Maybe a situation where it is best to let sleeping dogs lie.

Carliios

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I feel like you’re conflating the two things here. I’m just talking about apprentice wall, I don’t see why it’s such a big issue to stay off one sector when there’s loads of others to climb on whilst access rights are confirmed first to ensure there’s no issues in the future?

How would staying off AW help? The issue at AW was with Network Rail who may or may not own the crag and who may or may not be content with climbing on the other side of the fence and turn a blind eye.

The other crags are owned as far as I can tell by the local council ie an entirely different landowner. It also seems to be the case that the Council have contradictory attitude to climbers and climbing OTOH posting notices banning climbing and on the OTOH endorsing a management plan that says they encourage climbing.

My understanding was when the BMC reps attempted to get in touch with the Council in the past they didn’t respond. Maybe a situation where it is best to let sleeping dogs lie.

Wouldn’t staying off AW essentially be “letting sleeping dogs lie” as you say by not rustling any feathers? Surely if there’s a lot of contradiction between what the parish council say and then a fuss is kicked up by Network Rail and they find out, could that not cause more issues?

People can do what they like obviously but I won’t be going there for those reasons, plus the fence is literally pushed up against the rock so not exactly the greatest climbing experience when you have better stuff nearby.

Anyways. The original point of this post was to suss out whether climbing is actually banned or not at AW and so far it seems like a big resounding ‘no one knows’

shark

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That’s a lot of ifs and buts including an unknown relationship between Network Rail and the local Council which may not exist. The Network Rail issue is probably safety driven and that particular box might be ticked in the risk assessment form that demonstrates that Network Rail has met its corporate responsibility obligations in the event of a future incident. Who knows what the Councils issue was or is. To my knowledge it’s never been disclosed. It may be that different people or departments at the Council have different views on this.

Will Hunt

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The fence cuts off access to the railway track. You don't need to squeeze through anything, you're entirely on the non-track side.

the fence is literally pushed up against the rock so not exactly the greatest climbing experience


These statements seem contradictory. Understanding where the fence is, and thus what it's trying to do, seems pretty important to understanding what NR are trying to do, and thus how keen they might be to prosecute people climbing behind the fence.

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Carliios

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That’s a lot of ifs and buts including an unknown relationship between Network Rail and the local Council which may not exist. The Network Rail issue is probably safety driven and that particular box might be ticked in the risk assessment form that demonstrates that Network Rail has met its corporate responsibility obligations in the event of a future incident. Who knows what the Councils issue was or is. To my knowledge it’s never been disclosed. It may be that different people or departments at the Council have different views on this.

The fence is so close to the rock that there’s a fairly good chance someone climbing there could get impaled if they’re careless and I can guarantee you if by some stroke of bad luck, someone died climbing there, the link between the council and NR would not be so unknown.

Wellsy

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I have been to where the fence is. You can't climb on Whizz Kid Wall unless you are prepared to get impaled. You can do Apprentice Wall, the Wookie, the Cookie, Apprentice Prow etc everything on that bit. There's about half a dozen good problems that are entirely climbable

steveri

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I'd take a guess at someone (Network Rail?) contacting ukc directly and them adding a manual override to the UKC/RAD link. Might be worth dropping them a line to see if they can add any insight? Alan was really helpful with a similar situation elsewhere.

Will Hunt

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 :lol:

There is absolutely no way that Network Rail is going to agree to climbing anywhere near that fence. I can't believe people think that they might!

I don't even think it's necessarily spiteful of them to place it there. There will be an asset standard for clearance between rails and fence and there's barely any room to play with.

I wouldn't be climbing there with their intent fairly clear and a real risk of criminal prosecution.

Carliios

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:lol:

There is absolutely no way that Network Rail is going to agree to climbing anywhere near that fence. I can't believe people think that they might!

I don't even think it's necessarily spiteful of them to place it there. There will be an asset standard for clearance between rails and fence and there's barely any room to play with.

I wouldn't be climbing there with their intent fairly clear and a real risk of criminal prosecution.

Agreed. Not worth it in my opinion. Plenty of other soft 7A+s people can get on  ;D

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Agreed. Not worth it in my opinion. Plenty of other soft 7A+s people can get on  ;D

Get on Colt

Jack Andrew

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The funny thing is, I didn’t even realise people were still climbing there until you shared it! Now I’m tempted, :devil-smiley:

I never did try Apprentice Wall and I’ve been told it’s a classic!

Wellsy

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Look, I think people should largely just try to keep a low profile at Anston in general, but I would point out that it wasn't people climbing at AW that got the fence put up, it was people doing that and then posting it all online, including a post from a big YouTube channel taken on the train tracks.

It's important to respect access rights and issues. There is a fence, as long as you are on the opposite side to the track to me it is reasonable to climb there and indeed anywhere else in the woods as long as one follows the SSSI rules and is respectful of the locals etc. People are not dicks for going there and climbing stuff imo, if they are approached by officials then they're probably wise to listen to what they say and be reasonable, but otherwise it seems fine to me. And I don't think that calling them that is going to get anywhere other than ignored.

Carliios

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The funny thing is, I didn’t even realise people were still climbing there until you shared it! Now I’m tempted, :devil-smiley:

I never did try Apprentice Wall and I’ve been told it’s a classic!

Don’t forget to post a video on Instagram

Wellsy

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I don't think you need to worry on that front when it comes to our Jack :D

Jack Andrew

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I’ll specifically mention the train tracks too like you did  :punk:

Carliios

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Good thing I climbed it before it got banned and fenced eh  :beer2:

Jack Andrew

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A good job you added to all of the instagram content of the train lines which could prompt more people to climb there which could have added to access issues and could have contributed to the banning and fence?

An interesting point  :goodidea:

reeve

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I don't have a definitive answer as to what is best to do (or not do), but just letting you all know that I am meeting a representative
of Anston Parish Council next week. I don't expect that this will clarify anything to do with Network Rail and AW but I'll at least try to find out.

Carliios

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A good job you added to all of the instagram content of the train lines which could prompt more people to climb there which could have added to access issues and could have contributed to the banning and fence?

An interesting point  :goodidea:

Literally just videos of the boulders but go on  :wank:

Jack Andrew

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I was only joking but since you’ve changed your instagram caption now you clearly see my point.

I was just jokingly stating that a lot of people will have contributed to the banning without realising it was wrong. To call others out seems pointless

Carliios

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I think there’s a bit of a difference between climbing on the rock and being a moron and running across the train tracks taking pictures which some people did on the day it got banned

Jack Andrew

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I haven’t been in this scene long, but common sense shows the more people climb next to the railway lines the more likely it is that people will be told to stop. From what I can tell it went a very long time going unnoticed before social media blew up.

I’m not saying the your post alone caused the ban, I’m saying that it was part of the bigger problem. I’m sure I’m guilty of it too, but that’s part and parcel of learning. My point was just that maybe we should be less prone to calling people out openly before speaking to them directly first?

I didn’t know people had run across the lines the day it was banned, that is stupid.

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Carlos, is it not fair to see how posting pictures of climbs in a sensitive area (whether or not it includes the tracks themselves) could lead to attracting more people there who in turn post etc etc and ends up contributing to the issue.

I have no problem people spraying about climbing, but just wish people didn't spray about places with sensitive access. Especially if the attitude is 'well glad I got those done before they got banned', which I'm sure you're partly joking :)

Carliios

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Yes it was a joke but I was also trying to make the point that the people who are climbing there NOW and spraying about it on socials aren’t helping the situation whereas when I posted it was pre-fence/ban though yes, I understand that me posting may attract others to go there.

And yes I may have altered the caption but all it said was “interesting location, not often you climb next to train tracks” wasn’t exactly an invitation or meant to be enticing in any way.

Christ. I just wanted information on whether access was banned there and it feels like it turned into a pile-on against me  :boohoo:

Will Hunt

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For what it's worth my saying that I wouldn't climb there isn't me saying that others mustn't. If they want to chance it then I guess it's their risk. Access is already lost to Apprentice Wall.

Maybe there's a chance that NR could influence the parish council to take a more hostile approach to climbers. If that was a significant risk it would change things.


I have no problem people spraying about climbing, but just wish people didn't spray about places with sensitive access.

Not particular to Carlos but this is unrealistic, imo. For so many climbers now it's as much about posting on social media and checking the Likes every 5 minutes as about the climbing. If only these people could take themselves off to surfing or something and fuck that culture up instead.

Aussiegav

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Carlos, did you get a response from the two users you roasted on that Instagram post?

Carliios

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Carlos, did you get a response from the two users you roasted on that Instagram post?

Nope.

shark

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I don't have a definitive answer as to what is best to do (or not do), but just letting you all know that I am meeting a representative
of Anston Parish Council next week. I don't expect that this will clarify anything to do with Network Rail and AW but I'll at least try to find out.

That sounds positive. Nice work. Hope it goes well 🤞

SA Chris

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If only these people could take themselves off to surfing or something and fuck that culture up instead.

That horse has long bolted.

Bradders

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I don't have a definitive answer as to what is best to do (or not do), but just letting you all know that I am meeting a representative
of Anston Parish Council next week. I don't expect that this will clarify anything to do with Network Rail and AW but I'll at least try to find out.

Sounds good. Would be great to hear the outcome and I could then update the crag description on UKC.

not_an_athlete

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Would some sort of fence between the climbing and the train track not help :shrug:

M1V0

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 :guilty:
Would some sort of fence between the climbing and the train track not help :shrug:

Sounds like the problem would be resolved with having a fence to fence off the fence that's causing fence issues. That way we know not to cross the fence that's fenced off by the fence. Maybe an additional fence on the other side of the fence to stop trains crossing the fence towards the fenced off fence too?

SA Chris

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off fence ive comment

chrisbrooke

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    • My youtube shuffling
If someone were to steal/remove the fenced-off fence fence, I know a bloke who could fence it for you....

 

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