[Danny]

Isn't Voyager just a shit sequence for the Sphinx?

I remember climbing the Sphinx years ago and not thinking much of it. There's loads better at the grade a stone's throw away. I would be happy to voluntarily not climb a (IMO) so-so 7A+, at a venue where there's loads of *** at that grade, in order to preserve what's left of one of the best hard things on grit — at a grade I'll never climb. Probably easy for me to say as an occasional visiting climber. I fully understand why others might really want to climb the Sphinx, and that's fair enough.

I think Bonjoy makes a good point. Especially as climbing's popularity balloons. Grit is a unique, limited and fragile resource.

 

[Bonjoy]

Let me put it another way. I wouldn't reclimb the Sphinx as it might damage Voyager (unless I could avoid standing on the handholds). I don't think a ban as such is the way forward, but a notice in the description to anyone considering an ascent, so they're aware of the possible  damage it could cause, might be useful. In the same way various things have had comments regards not standing on key handhold pebbles.

[abarro81]

I've never done the Sphinx. I'm happy to keep it that way in order to help preserve Voyager, even though I have no intention of trying Voyager... I wouldn't begrudge those who choose to climb The Sphinx anyway, if they really want to, but like Bonjoy think it's fine to advocate that people consider the consequences. Those who really want to do it can do it, for those who aren't that fussed about doing/repeating it then knowing that it was damaging another problem might make them think twice about climbing on it (e.g. me), which is fine.

[SA Chris]

Bit of a weird one but it's perhaps worth people not climbing the Sphinx anymore.

And Demon Wall...

I think anything vaguely fragile on that part of the 'cliff was fucked by hobnailers eons ago

How worn is the start of WoH from people doing it as  boulder problem though? It was looking a bit tatty the last time I was there about 12 plus years ago.

[El Mocho]

How about people stop climbing Voyager to help preserve the Sphinx? It survived years without anything breaking but since people have been brushing the footholds loads it's now suffering damage... Why does Voyage take precedence over Sphinx? Voyager is a skin wrecking problem just dangling off your fingers, essentially a beastmaker workout but on really unpleasant holds *

* I've tried it in the past and I'll be trying it again...

[Bradders]

Is there a way of climbing The Sphinx without stepping on any of the hand holds of Voyager?

It reminds me of when I did Whitefinger at Whitehouses, teestub reminded me politely that I really ought not to stand on the crimp when topping out, as it's potentially fragile. I didn't need to stand on it to top out, so it makes total sense that the best thing is to avoid it, even if it was marginally harder that way. Of course that's all a bit moot now 

[shark]

Why does Voyage take precedence over Sphinx?

To answer a rhetorical question -because it’s a more important test piece and because of the greater investment emotional buy in, time and energy by climbers - Caminati wintering out in Sheffield etc   

[36chambers]

It reminds me of when I did Whitefinger at Whitehouses, teestub reminded me politely that I really ought not to stand on the crimp when topping out, as it's potentially fragile. I didn't need to stand on it to top out, so it makes total sense that the best thing is to avoid it, even if it was marginally harder that way. Of course that's all a bit moot now 

when I did Corporal Khan I had every intention of not standing on that crimp, until I reached the lip absolutely gassed and without hesitation declared "I'm using the crimp!" and put as much foot weight on it as possible...

I panicked, I am sorry.

[northern yob]

Why does Voyage take precedence over Sphinx?

To answer a rhetorical question -because it’s a more important test piece and because of the greater investment emotional buy in, time and energy by climbers - Caminati wintering out in Sheffield etc

That’s absolute bullshit! Whilst it  might be your view which you are entitled to( I don’t necessarily disagree) telling people what they can and can’t climb, and deciding what is more important is bollocks.

[Will Hunt]

It reminds me of when I did Whitefinger at Whitehouses, teestub reminded me politely that I really ought not to stand on the crimp when topping out, as it's potentially fragile. I didn't need to stand on it to top out, so it makes total sense that the best thing is to avoid it, even if it was marginally harder that way. Of course that's all a bit moot now 

when I did Corporal Khan I had every intention of not standing on that crimp, until I reached the lip absolutely gassed and without hesitation declared "I'm using the crimp!" and put as much foot weight on it as possible...

I panicked, I am sorry.

Ben and I had watched a video of Warbs calmly figuring out a way to top out Dead Babies without standing on the pebbles and resolved to do the same. When we got there our eyes were on stalks and, my god, did we weight those pebbles.
Which reminds me of when Ben did The Prize, Warbs asked him to stop before topping out and brush the top break for him. Ben just said "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm quite scared" and selfishly rolled over the top.

We can't all be Dave Warburton.

[User deactivated.]

As someone who will never climb voyager but could probably climb the sphinx, I kind of agree with Shark's post. 7A+ are ten a penny.

[abarro81]

How about people stop climbing Voyager to help preserve the Sphinx? It survived years without anything breaking but since people have been brushing the footholds loads it's now suffering damage... Why does Voyage take precedence over Sphinx? Voyager is a skin wrecking problem just dangling off your fingers, essentially a beastmaker workout but on really unpleasant holds *

* I've tried it in the past and I'll be trying it again...

Whilst I take your broad point, there are a few obvious flaws/questions here:
1) No-one's experience of climbing the Sphinx appears to have been impacted by people trying Voyager, whereas the reverse has happened. (This relies on my assumption that the crystal crumbling has not notably altered the difficulty or quality of the Sphinx - correct me if that's not true)
2) Are you sure that it's survived years without anything breaking? Or is it just that no-one noticed the subtle changes for much of the time due to Voyager not yet existing or changes not affecting the Voyager holds?

deciding what is more important is bollocks.

Shark's wording has some bits I'm not sure I agree in (there's an implication that difficulty per-se makes importance), but there is a valid point there - imagine a peak with 1,000 *** 7A+s and 1 *** 8B. It would, make a lot of sense to try to preserve the 8B by not climbing one of the 7A+s - doing so makes a huge difference to some people's experiences whilst leaving the experiences of others virtually unaffected. The reverse would also be true - if you've got shit loads of 8Bs to go at it would be a pity to ruin a classic 7A+ by lapping the 8B version and breaking it.

[Will Hunt]

How about people stop climbing Voyager to help preserve the Sphinx? It survived years without anything breaking but since people have been brushing the footholds loads it's now suffering damage... Why does Voyage take precedence over Sphinx? Voyager is a skin wrecking problem just dangling off your fingers, essentially a beastmaker workout but on really unpleasant holds *

* I've tried it in the past and I'll be trying it again...

Whilst I take your broad point, there are a few obvious flaws/questions here:
1) No-one's experience of climbing the Sphinx appears to have been impacted by people trying Voyager, whereas the reverse has happened. (This relies on my assumption that the crystal crumbling has not notably altered the difficulty or quality of the Sphinx - correct me if that's not true)

Doesn't this assume that the hand/footholds have crumbled because of traffic from the Sphinx? Ben seems to suggest the damage has been done by increased traffic, not all of it in good conditions, on Voyager.

[Fiend]

We can all agree that telling people to be extra-careful climbing problems that might damage another "more important" problem is a sensible thing tho... Including only going on it in bone dry conditions, treadingly lightly, avoiding the other problem's handholds wherever possible, etc.

[shark]

telling people what they can and can’t climb

I didn’t

[northern yob]

Whilst I get all the arguments for and against this, my real problem is with telling people what they should or shouldn’t be doing. If you wanna avoid standing on a pebble do so good for you. I’d probably avoid it if possible. As bonjoy said there’s a lot to be said for making people aware in the guidebook etc.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, don’t be telling people that x problem is better/more important than y problem and therefore takes precedence.

You do your thing and let people make up their own mind about what is the right thing to do. There’s an awful lot of assuming the moral high ground these days and telling people what they should be doing!

Sorry rant over,this is aimed at no one in particular. I think I just hate rules.

[northern yob]

telling people what they can and can’t climb

I didn’t

No you didn’t, I assumed by implying that voyager took precedence you were saying people shouldn’t climb Sphinx. If that’s not what you meant I’m sorry.

[abarro81]

Doesn't this assume that the hand/footholds have crumbled because of traffic from the Sphinx? Ben seems to suggest the damage has been done by increased traffic, not all of it in good conditions, on Voyager.

See:

I know for a fact that the hand hold broke from someone (I'm not naming any names as I think that's a bit unfair) standing on it doing the sphynx

I assume Ben was using a rhetorical device to make the point that this could cut both ways.

[gme]

Whilst I get all the arguments for and against this, my real problem is with telling people what they should or shouldn’t be doing. If you wanna avoid standing on a pebble do so good for you. I’d probably avoid it if possible. As bonjoy said there’s a lot to be said for making people aware in the guidebook etc.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, don’t be telling people that x problem is better/more important than y problem and therefore takes precedence.

You do your thing and let people make up their own mind about what is the right thing to do. There’s an awful lot of assuming the moral high ground these days and telling people what they should be doing!

Sorry rant over,this is aimed at no one in particular. I think I just hate rules.

Do you mean like not climbing on wet rock, drying stuff with buckets of chalk, leaving tick marks etc.

[abarro81]

Leaving aside the inherent irony of the entire post/position... Your approach, applied more broadly, would mean you shouldn't advocate for a position on bolting, abseiling down classics in big muddy boots on a busy Saturday, littering (not to mention speeding, murder etc. etc.) [edit - gav beat me to it]

You do your thing and let people make up their own mind about what is the right thing to do. There’s an awful lot of assuming the moral high ground these days and telling people what they should be doing!

Surely if you have a strong view on something from a moral standpoint, you have a moral obligation to articulate the reason for that that view to others in an attempt to stop them doing the morally "bad" thing. Anything else would be somewhat internally inconsistent.

Anyway, it sounds like we agree broadly on saying that it makes sense to make people aware that there are reasons why you might choose to forego doing the Sphinx out of altruism

[Bradders]

Which reminds me of when Ben did The Prize, Warbs asked him to stop before topping out and brush the top break for him. Ben just said "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm quite scared" and selfishly rolled over the top.

He had good reason to be scared; when James was cleaning it on a rope he ripped off a massive hold from that top bit 

 

[northern yob]

Whilst I get all the arguments for and against this, my real problem is with telling people what they should or shouldn’t be doing. If you wanna avoid standing on a pebble do so good for you. I’d probably avoid it if possible. As bonjoy said there’s a lot to be said for making people aware in the guidebook etc.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, don’t be telling people that x problem is better/more important than y problem and therefore takes precedence.

You do your thing and let people make up their own mind about what is the right thing to do. There’s an awful lot of assuming the moral high ground these days and telling people what they should be doing!

Sorry rant over,this is aimed at no one in particular. I think I just hate rules.

Do you mean like not climbing on wet rock, drying stuff with buckets of chalk, leaving tick marks etc.

No not really,  I was meaning more in the outside world. These are good points though, it’s more with the general tone. The above are all great examples which we have all probably been guilty of breaking to some degree or other over the years, what was acceptable 10yrs ago often isn’t now. I think everyone changes their views to move with the times. It’s more the way people are very happy (even take pleasure)in pointing out others mistakes these days. I just prefer a more subtle approach I suppose. Or maybe I just hate being told what to do or think.

If someone politely told me I shouldn’t be climbing a problem because it had been superseded by another problem because it was better and more important I would probably impolitely tell them to go away.

[northern yob]

Leaving aside the inherent irony of the entire post/position... Your approach, applied more broadly, would mean you shouldn't advocate for a position on bolting, abseiling down classics in big muddy boots on a busy Saturday, littering (not to mention speeding, murder etc. etc.) [edit - gav beat me to it]

Murder and speeding are definitely wrong is voyager definitely better/more important than Sphinx? It’s more where the right or wrong isn’t quite so black and white. Gavs examples are like speeding( definitely wrong)

[Loos3-tools]

I agree NY, the problem with any argument / debate that starts with assuming the moral high ground is that it places anyone who disagrees in an uncomfortable bind. To openly disagree leaves them being experienced as bad and to keep shut on the subject leaves them feeling bad. So the reaction is take your opinion and stick it.

[northern yob]

If I saw someone climbing on rock that I thought wasn’t dry enough I would have a word, I wouldn’t then come on here and post some pictures and talk about what morons they were. If people want to do that fine (it does get the message out there) I just don’t really agree with that approach.

Does that make sense? I’m definitely not condoning murder or tick marks.....