[shark]

No you didn’t, I assumed by implying that voyager took precedence you were saying people shouldn’t climb Sphinx. If that’s not what you meant I’m sorry.

Voyager has more status as a significant testpiece. I think we can all agree on that? That it confers it with greater precedence seems blindingly obvious to me. Whether that precedence is sufficient to dissuade people from climbing it or not depends on their viewpoint primarily of how much they want to do Sphinx and how much they care for current and future Voyager aspirants.

.

[northern yob]

No you didn’t, I assumed by implying that voyager took precedence you were saying people shouldn’t climb Sphinx. If that’s not what you meant I’m sorry.

Voyager has more status as a significant testpiece. I think we can all agree on that? That it confers it with greater precedence seems blindingly obvious to me. Whether that precedence is sufficient to dissuade people from climbing it or not depends on their viewpoint primarily of how much they want to do Sphinx and how much they care for current and future Voyager aspirants.

.

So are you telling people they shouldn’t climb the Sphinx or not? Is that your reason for not climbing it (fair enough)
Is it the reason why joe bloggs shouldn’t climb it (not fair enough in my view)

[Will Hunt]

Just chip the crystals off and turn a finger-mangling 8B into a lovely 8C. The 8C climbers will be delighted that the hardest problem on grit is actually good and the 8B punters can shuffle off back to the Tor or Earth Quarry where they belong. Win win.

[Bradders]

Is that your reason for not climbing it (fair enough)

Surely all anyone's doing on here is saying this and giving their reasons, and then inviting others to make up their own minds?

[abarro81]

It’s more where the right or wrong isn’t quite so black and white.

Who gets to say? For starters, I'd say hold damage is far more "wrong" than tickmarks since it's difficult to undo. Bear in mind there are plenty out there who don't believe in moral absolutes too. It was really a critique of your broader point anyway.

I agree NY, the problem with any argument / debate that starts with assuming the moral high ground is that it places anyone who disagrees in an uncomfortable bind. To openly disagree leaves them being experienced as bad and to keep shut on the subject leaves them feeling bad. So the reaction is take your opinion and stick it.

I'm sure we're all happy to reframe the debate as "would it be worthwhile most people avoiding climbing the Sphinx, unless it really matters to them" rather than "it's perhaps worth people not climbing the Sphinx anymore", if that helps.

So are you telling people they shouldn’t climb the Sphinx or not? Is that your reason for not climbing it (fair enough)
Is it the reason why joe bloggs shouldn’t climb it (not fair enough in my view)

Maybe I'm mischaracterizing Simon's position, but I'd assume that he'd say broadly what others have suggested - Joe Bloggs should add the consideration that his ascent might damage Voyager to his decision making, and then decide whether he wants to climb the Sphinx. There is a good reason why he might choose not to, if he's not that fussed about doing it vs just going and doing something else (I fall into this camp, as others have said they do). Maybe you can have a punt at arguing why Joe Bloggs shouldn't dry things with lots of chalk, use tickmarks or climb on damp rock without trying yourself in some knots over how those arguments might also apply to this scenario, albeit in a slightly modified form (it will all involve some level of impacting on other people's "fun" in a way that's not considered "necessary" - i.e. will the level of enjoyment you get out of it justify the potential impact to other people's levels of enjoyment)

[northern yob]

Is that your reason for not climbing it (fair enough)

Surely all anyone's doing on here is saying this and giving their reasons, and then inviting others to make up their own minds?

Is it? If so then fair enough.

[northern yob]

It’s more where the right or wrong isn’t quite so black and white.

Who gets to say? For starters, I'd say hold damage is far more "wrong" than tickmarks since it's difficult to undo. Bear in mind there are plenty out there who don't believe in moral absolutes too. It was really a critique of your broader point anyway.

What broader point?
My only real point is that I don’t think it’s ok to tell people not to climb certain problems to protect others. I expressed an opinion that I dislike the way people are keen to tell everyone what they should or should not be doing! That’s all either I’m getting confused or you are reading way too much into it.

[shark]

So are you telling people they shouldn’t climb the Sphinx or not? Is that your reason for not climbing it (fair enough)
Is it the reason why joe bloggs shouldn’t climb it (not fair enough in my view)

I’m not. My personal reason for not climbing is that it is too high and scary. There’s a difference between saying someone shouldn’t and someone can’t. (Lockdown rules vs guidance have made us all more aware of that sort of distinction recently)

Saying that Voyager has more precedence is not the same as telling people not to climb Sphinx.

It would be good if a Sphinx aspirant knows and factor in that they run the risk of damaging a more important problem but the decision is there’s to make in a situation like this in terms of our climbing ethics.

It’s not any individuals place to lay down the law. It might be that widespread consensus forms that it is best practice not to climb it but even that’s is still guidance rather than a rule.

[abarro81]

What broader point?

The part of my post that you quoted was a response to your broader point on people "telling" each other what they should/shouldn't do (actually it's all just been suggestions anyway):

my real problem is with telling people what they should or shouldn’t be doing.

You do your thing and let people make up their own mind about what is the right thing to do. There’s an awful lot of assuming the moral high ground these days and telling people what they should be doing!

I was saying that posting this was inherently ironic (i.e. telling people that they shouldn't be telling people what to do), and that it leads to a position where you can't strongly advocate against anything (be that not climbing damp rock, tickmarks, bolting, abseiling down classics in big muddy boots on a busy Saturday, littering etc.). Fundamentally it strikes me that you're probably fine with telling people what they should/shouldn't be doing when you agree (ticks, damp rock) but not when you don't. Which is fine, but internally inconsistent with your claimed dislike of people telling each other what they should/shouldn't be doing. You said you just don't like this when it's not black and white, but given that you're deciding what's black and white, it all starts to fall apart a bit...

p.s. I probably agree with you more than you think about people telling others what they "should" be doing, on the whole. One of my pet hates has always been people saying others climbed for the "right" or "wrong" reasons, which seems absurd to me. Who cares what motivates you - if it motivates you then great. Obviously when things impact on other people than it gets more nuanced...

[Bonjoy]

My original point was posed as a question. I probably wont reclimb Sphinx, but if I hadn't already and I really wanted to I'd probably look at the holds and make a judgment. It's possible that all the fragile bits have all come off now and the holds are now stable (wet hold caveats apply), or could be made so with a couple of drops of superglue. Impossible to say without looking.
I'd be really gutted if I damaged Voyager though. Not because hard equals better, rather because climbs at this grade on grit are super rare (as per abarro's post) and small changes make a big difference.

[Teaboy]

As no one has any enforcement power it makes no difference whether you say shouldn’t, can’t or “would prefer it if you didn’t”.

On the wider point of whether Voyager is of greater value to the Sphinx then I’d say it is. They are probably (certainly to a non climber) aesthetically similar it’s just that 8bs are rarer than 7a+ and society values rarity even though to an individual like me the Sphinx has more utility as it is a climb I could use. 

[northern yob]

Shark we agree!

Barrows oh the irony indeed! To be fair I very rarely tell anyone not to do anything, it’s usually the other way round, hence my dislike of it.

It’s a bit of a catch 22, saying anything it makes me a hypocrite but there you go, I probably am. Just out of interest do you think it’s ok to tell people not to climb x because y takes precedence( yeah I get no one is actually saying that, but that did seem to be the implication) anyway I’m gonna get back in my box I’ll be back out in a couple months when the boredom strikes again.

[Loos3-tools]

Another classic yet slightly different example is everybody going bat shit about climbing wet grit yet when there was a film made about the wideboyz climbing the staffordshire nose in record time wet conditions, I don't remember anyone batting an eyelid. Not that I gave a shit, but I do remember thinking wtf when some punter came under fire for scrambling up a chimney at crook rise on a bmc day out.

[shark]

Shark we agree!

Thank god for that!

anyway I’m gonna get back in my box I’ll be back out in a couple months when the boredom strikes again.

 

[bigironhorse]

This has always crossed my mind when I've thought about the sphinx. It has been on my radar for things to do for years but never got round to it so far. I've always thought that it would be a pity to destroy voyager by standing on the holds.

[abarro81]

Just out of interest do you think it’s ok to tell people not to climb x because y takes precedence( yeah I get no one is actually saying that, but that did seem to be the implication)

Hmm... I think it depends on the context.
99% of the time no, I don't think you should tell someone not to climb X because Y is better/more important/harder. E.g. if you're on rainshadow it doesn't mean you should get to queue-jump the people on raindogs, or that people should stop climbing raindogs to reduce the queues on rainshadow. But, we should all try to not screw each other over, e.g. you might agree that the person on rainshadow would go first, run up to the roof quickly, pull the rope through and then work on the roof while the other person then works the bottom of raindogs.

The only thing here is that doing the Sphinx might impact on people's ability to try Voyager in the future, not just in the present... In a hypothetical scenario where there was a 10% chance that each ascent of the Sphinx would irreversibly break Voyager and a 0% chance that climbing Voyager would break the the same hold, I think it would be fair enough to think/say that people "shouldn't" climb it. Obviously that's not how it really is, but I can definitely create scenarios where I think it's ok to say someone shouldn't climb X in order to preserve Y

[Stu Littlefair]

You know, back In the good ole days there were so few of us, and everyone knew everyone else.

That meant we could just do whatever the fuck we liked and if someone objected it could all be sorted out with a punch up in the heights, or as Gav knows to his cost, the broadie.

These days that’s been replaced by people expressing mild disapproval on the internet. It’s so stifling. How i long for those simpler days.

[northern yob]

Bored again, kids are in bed! Take me back to the punch up days to be honest. Despite what people might claim is or isn’t the case, In my experience people are much more forthcoming with their views and criticism of others online.

Back on topic,for me it’s not about voyager and the Sphinx.The grades are irrelevant as is quality or popularity,it’s about not telling other people what they should think or what they should do.

[abarro81]

Not bored of the irony I see

[northern yob]

Apparently not! It’s a good job your here to keep pointing it out.

[Fiend]

Just to check, do Derbyshire Police have the automatic power to issue fines for climbing The Sphinx, or it is a matter of police discretion?

[Loos3-tools]

Just to check, do Derbyshire Police have the automatic power to issue fines for climbing The Sphinx, or it is a matter of police discretion?

Skull cracking, arrest and incarceration take place based on an individual officers assessment of bad footwork.

[SA Chris]

How i long for those simpler days.

I'm sure you could get someone to punch you in the broadie if you tried hard enough Stu.

[Loos3-tools]

What happened to the topic split with this vid posted?

[shark]

Here: https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31180.msg633087/topicseen.html#msg633087